Splitting, Push/Pull or Both?

[MaroonLiquid]

I have a question. 

     Since my wife and I had a great time together over the weekend (it was just her and I until our daughter returned from out of town with a friend and their family), she has pulled back communication a lot.  I feel like Clark in National Lampoon's European Vacation when they were going around in circles and he would yell out, "Look kids, Big Ben... .Monument".     As I said in my update thread, there was no dysregulations, harsh words or anything.  She tried to bait me at first with a "stab" about being irresponsible.  I didn't engage (in fact, chose to not even respond to the bait) AT ALL, she then about an hour later asked if we could see each other.  We spend all evening and night together.  The next day, she went to church and after, asked if I wanted to go shopping with her.  We had a blast.  It ended up being one of the healthiest, loving, and fun weekends we had in almost a year.  The best part, is we were alone for 95% of it.  I love our kids, but we have had just one weekend alone in almost 5 years since our honeymoon!

     I contacted her Monday and we talked for a bit on text.  After a few responses both ways, she didn't respond again till late in the evening.  That's fine and left it alone.  I texted midday yesterday and she responded but then didn't again.  I didn't try again either.  We haven't communicated at all today and not going to be the first one.  That is a boundary for me (as well as having HEALTHY communication) and has been for a few months as a r/s "should be" a two way street.  I am perfectly comfortable now with letting her be and me being content and happy (have for 6 months).  It doesn't bother me anymore really.  I will say she is learning that my boundaries are much healthier and our r/s (overall) has been much healthier for months.  Here comes the question... .

     My question is... .Is this splitting, push/pull or both and what is the best way to counteract these cycles as best as I can (if possible).  Ok, that was two questions.   

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[sweetheart]

I'm wondering ML whether what it is really matters, just that you know that it does happen and will happen where your w's concerned.

Living your life and allowing her to live hers is working for you both. Analysing her behaviour keeps your focus perhaps in the wrong place.

Maybe doing nothing is the best way forward, can you accept that this is just how it is for now?

Your boundaries sound healthy for you, remember though they can be flexible, so if you haven't heard from your wife and want to go on a date, then ask. If she chooses to not answer then ok.

For me though after having such a lovely time together I would still find it difficult when then there is nothing, no matter how used to it I thought I was.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm wondering ML whether what it is really matters, just that you know that it does happen and will happen where your w's concerned.

I do accept that is how she handles things.  I do.  it took me a LOONG time to get here.  But, I'm here.

Living your life and allowing her to live hers is working for you both.

This is true.  

Analysing her behaviour keeps your focus perhaps in the wrong place.

I tend to analyze things too much.  I'm just more or less trying to find a way to help counter-balance this behavior without manipulation.

Maybe doing nothing is the best way forward, can you accept that this is just how it is for now?

I believe it is and yes I can accept it.  

Your boundaries sound healthy for you, remember though they can be flexible, so if you haven't heard from your wife and want to go on a date, then ask. If she chooses to not answer then ok.

I do try every once in a while try and start communication and don't feel rejected anymore if she doesn't respond (haven't in a while actually).

For me though after having such a lovely time together I would still find it difficult when then there is nothing, no matter how used to it I thought I was.

It used to be difficult, but it just reaffirms for me her unhealthiness.  I have felt like the "dirty secret" at times with her friends and family (obviously her kids know we see each other) as if she's ashamed of me or something.  Maybe that is more her shame, guilt or whatever than anything.  That's something I have had to work through to fight feeling rejected, and it doesn't affect me much anymore.  I'm so much stronger than I used to be.

[sweetheart]

Maybe then when this happens, the focus can be less about her behaviour and more about how you really feel and spending some time with that.

This self reflection, will perhaps over time negate the need to focus on reasons for her behaviour and help continue to strengthen you emotionally and increase radical acceptance.

That reads like some kind of 'new age' affirmation, but hopefully you know what I mean.

[mindwise]

Hi ML,

Happy to hear you had such a good time

And I think it's great to not take rejection too personally and be above it

In my experience with my BPDgf what works best for us is if she initiates most of contact (she reaches out quicker intuitively). Also, I minimize texting and maximise time spent together (we hang out together practically every single day). If I initiate contact I won't call/text again until I hear back from her. I usually propose something fun/interesting and invite her to join me. If she is in a bad mood or won't answer, I still follow with my plans and have an awesome day. We never talk relationship stuff over the phone/text.

Regarding splitting and push/pull. I once read about a pwBPD explaining that when she felt his partner getting too close she would start looking for reasons to "hate" him and push him away.  

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi ML,

Happy to hear you had such a good time

And I think it's great to not take rejection too personally and be above it

In my experience with my BPDgf what works best for us is if she initiates most of contact (she reaches out quicker intuitively). Also, I minimize texting and maximise time spent together (we hang out together practically every single day). If I initiate contact I won't call/text again until I hear back from her.

That is what I have been doing.  It is working for us too.

I usually propose something fun/interesting and invite her to join me. If she is in a bad mood or won't answer, I still follow with my plans and have an awesome day. We never talk relationship stuff over the phone/text.

I have done this as well too.  It works also.

Regarding splitting and push/pull. I once read about a pwBPD explaining that when she felt his partner getting too close she would start looking for reasons to "hate" him and push him away.  

I've read that too.  It can be frustrating if I let it.  I don't anymore.  It has to be HELL for them to live that way.  They live in a prison they create for themselves.  Reminds me of the scene from Hunger Games: Catching Fire where Katniss chases the JabberJay into the woods thinking it was her sister's voice.  When she realizes it wasn't, she turns to leave and runs into a "wall" that she couldn't see because she went "down the rabbit hole".  She then fell to her knees until the hour was over.   

[formflier]

 

ML,

My guess is... it's a bit of push pull. 

She had a great time... .then... .when she is alone with her thoughts... .she starts ruminating... and there is conflict in her head about the good times she had... .and the "jerk" that won't pay this and that at her command.

Since she can't make sense of it... .she shuts down for a bit... .has to pull back from the r/s.

This could be healthy... .or a healthier options than engaging.

I think it was Grey Kitty that said... ."when they don't want to talk... .believe them... ."

I'm glad you had a good time... .very impressed at how you remained centered and untriggered while she attempted to bait (I think at start of weekend)

Hang in there... .this is a cycle... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

My guess is... it's a bit of push pull. 

She had a great time... .then... .when she is alone with her thoughts... .she starts ruminating... and there is conflict in her head about the good times she had... .and the "jerk" that won't pay this and that at her command.

I can definitely see that. 

Since she can't make sense of it... .she shuts down for a bit... .has to pull back from the r/s.

This could be healthy... .or a healthier options than engaging.

I think it was Grey Kitty that said... ."when they don't want to talk... .believe them... ."

I do and make sure I give her plenty of space.

I'm glad you had a good time... .very impressed at how you remained centered and untriggered while she attempted to bait (I think at start of weekend)

Hang in there... .this is a cycle... .

FF

Thanks.  It is a cycle and that has helped me deal with her behaviors for the last year.  I accept that as a part of who she is while continuing to believe she will desire to get help to change those behaviors.

[MaroonLiquid]

I texted my wife this morning to make plans to get together this weekend for our daughter's birthday.  She said our daughter had plans with her friends.  I said that I understood and didn't want to interfere, but wanted to get together after that.  Her response, "We're not interested in that, ML."  I didn't respond and won't.     What the heck is up with that? 

[formflier]

I texted my wife this morning to make plans to get together this weekend for our daughter's birthday.  She said our daughter had plans with her friends.  I said that I understood and didn't want to interfere, but wanted to get together after that.  Her response, "We're not interested in that, ML."  I didn't respond and won't.     What the heck is up with that? 

Remember... .it could have nothing to do with you.  No way to tell... .

How can you send something or acknowledge the birthday?  What have you done in the past... .?

FF

[mindwise]

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's a very impolite and inappropriate way of communicating with you.

Do you think that by not validating her text she might reconsider your offer for the weekend?  

[MaroonLiquid]

I texted my wife this morning to make plans to get together this weekend for our daughter's birthday.  She said our daughter had plans with her friends.  I said that I understood and didn't want to interfere, but wanted to get together after that.  Her response, "We're not interested in that, ML."  I didn't respond and won't.     What the heck is up with that? 

Remember... .it could have nothing to do with you.  No way to tell... .

How can you send something or acknowledge the birthday?  What have you done in the past... .?

FF

I acknowledge it by texting them, "Happy Birthday" and that I love them.  Our son's birthday was a couple of weeks ago and she wasn't speaking to me then so I texted him and facebook'd him.  She's done this around their birthdays for the last year almost as a way to punish me (in turn punishing them) and make them think I don't care.  It's obviously parental alienation at its finest.  It seems like as long as she's making the plans, everything is cool.  When I try and make the plans it seems, I get shut down.  That has gotten old.  

Looking at what happened last weekend, she tried to trigger me last weekend with a crappy comment (like earlier this morning) and didn't take the bait.  A bit later, (felt bad maybe when I didn't respond) she asked to go see a movie and then asked if I wanted to stay over.  Then the next day, she asked if I wanted to go shopping.  Anyway to try and combat this?

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's a very impolite and inappropriate way of communicating with you.

Do you think that by not validating her text she might reconsider your offer for the weekend? 

Thanks.  It's possible.  She's learning I don't respond when she treats me that way (like my above response to FF).

[mindwise]

Looking at what happened last weekend, she tried to trigger me last weekend with a crappy comment (like earlier this morning) and didn't take the bait.  A bit later, (felt bad maybe when I didn't respond) she asked to go see a movie and then asked if I wanted to stay over. Then the next day, she asked if I wanted to go shopping. Anyway to try and combat this?

... .It's possible.  She's learning I don't respond when she treats me that way (like my above response to FF).

Well it seems like this could be the way to improve things. When you don't validate her crappy behavior, she feels bad (maybe) and changes her attitude.

I really do hope things change for the weekend

[MaroonLiquid]

Looking at what happened last weekend, she tried to trigger me last weekend with a crappy comment (like earlier this morning) and didn't take the bait.  A bit later, (felt bad maybe when I didn't respond) she asked to go see a movie and then asked if I wanted to stay over. Then the next day, she asked if I wanted to go shopping. Anyway to try and combat this?

... .It's possible.  She's learning I don't respond when she treats me that way (like my above response to FF).

Well it seems like this could be the way to improve things. When you don't validate her crappy behavior, she feels bad (maybe) and changes her attitude.

I really do hope things change for the weekend

     Me too, but I won't hold my breath either.  Going off of the past year of birthdays with the kids is she finds something to "paint me black" about right before the event to keep me from coming.  I see that two-fold: 1) She wants to continue the "you don't have a dad" feeling in them almost as a way to strengthen her bond with them and 2) So that if anyone that she has painted me black" to is there, they won't get a different picture.  This is where my feeling of being the "dirty secret" in her life comes into my thought processes.  When it's just the kids/us with no special occasion (for the last year since her major dysregulation) it seems those are the times she wants me around.

     The interesting dynamic is this is my weekend with my kids and they are expected to go to the birthday party.  Honestly, a part of me wants to say, "We're not interested in that."  I would never hurt my step-daughter that way nor play the same game.  It is just bizarre behavior.  One weekend it was great, we were close, and the next, she isn't interested in spending time with me.  B-P-D... .Hello McFly!    

     For the past six months or so, things are better communication wise (only one dysreg, and the time she made herself look like a fool at a tournament) and more calm.  It seems to me that lately that the more I leave her to herself because boundaries I'm enacting (not responding to ugly texts/communication, not playing into divorce threats, etc), the more she tries to trigger me by being ugly in a snapping moment with a disrespectful/ugly comment.  Funny how divorce has fallen off the table again and no mention of it and NOTHING from her lawyer.  I think she is testing my "centeredness" and isn't finding any chinks in the armor.  I guess that is frustrating for her.

[formflier]

     The interesting dynamic is this is my weekend with my kids and they are expected to go to the birthday party.  Honestly, a part of me wants to say, "We're not interested in that."  I would never hurt my step-daughter that way nor play the same game.  It is just bizarre behavior.  One weekend it was great, we were close, and the next, she isn't interested in spending time with me.  B-P-D... .Hello McFly!    

   

Wait... .I'm confused here. 

Are they invited to go to the party? Who "expects" them to be there?  How did this get set up?

My gut reaction is that you are having family time with your family... .and aren't going to split up the family... .put it in her court... .it's a package deal.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Wait... .I'm confused here. 

Are they invited to go to the party? Who "expects" them to be there?  How did this get set up?

Yes, my kids are invited to the party by our daughter.  I don't think my wife realizes it's my weekend with my kids and expects them to be dropped off or whatever by my ex-wife. 

My gut reaction is that you are having family time with your family... .and aren't going to split up the family... .put it in her court... .it's a package deal.

FF

That's a good idea.

[formflier]

 

Hmm...

So... .did your daughter invite you too? 

Who is in charge of the inviting?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Hmm...

So... .did your daughter invite you too?  

Who is in charge of the inviting?

FF

I guess our daughter.  She mentioned it to me during practice like a "reminder" about her birthday but no invite to the actual party.  She was discussing it with my wife also when she got in the car to leave and I was standing there talking to them... .She mentioned that my kids were invited... .Again, no invite to me.

[formflier]

She mentioned that my kids were invited... .Again, no invite to me.

You wife mentioned this to you... .?  Just want to be clear...

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

She mentioned that my kids were invited... .Again, no invite to me.

You wife mentioned this to you... .?  Just want to be clear...

FF

Our daughter mentioned something about her party.  She asked our daughter, "You invited the girls right?" (Talking about my kids).  She said yes.  Nothing was said directly to me but I was standing right there and having other conversations with them.  I hope that makes sense.

[formflier]

 

Sorry... I'm being dense... but I think I have it.

Your wife asks your daughter (wife's bio kid) if she invited "the girls" (your bio kids).

All this was in front of you?

FF is slow today...  

[MaroonLiquid]

Sorry... I'm being dense... but I think I have it.

Your wife asks your daughter (wife's bio kid) if she invited "the girls" (your bio kids).

All this was in front of you?

FF is slow today...  

That's correct.

[formflier]

 

So... .what was thinking on not straightening it out in person... when it was happening?

Here is my take... .you will be dropping your daughters off... .go in with them and "test the waters".  Be prepared to stay... .be prepared to go.

My impression is that unless she calls and invites you... .  You reaching out to her will get weird responses.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

So... .what was thinking on not straightening it out in person... when it was happening?

Here is my take... .you will be dropping your daughters off... .go in with them and "test the waters".  Be prepared to stay... .be prepared to go.

My impression is that unless she calls and invites you... .  You reaching out to her will get weird responses.

FF

Why do you think?  Is that because of the normal BPD crap surrounding special events or her just being ugly or both?

[formflier]

 

I think it is because she is so "driven" by the feeling of the moment... .that you need to test the waters and see what the "moment" is.

Here is the thing... .if she had invited you... .she could still wake up on wrong side of bed and tell you to take hike when you get there.

Also just as likely that you get there this weekend and she is pawing all over you... .

Only one way to find out... .

Make sure you have plenty of rest and are centered for either outcome... .and roll with it.

Trying to talk and negotiate this out ahead of time... .well... .how has that worked out with other issues in the past?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

I think it is because she is so "driven" by the feeling of the moment... .that you need to test the waters and see what the "moment" is.

Here is the thing... .if she had invited you... .she could still wake up on wrong side of bed and tell you to take hike when you get there.

Also just as likely that you get there this weekend and she is pawing all over you... .

Only one way to find out... .

Make sure you have plenty of rest and are centered for either outcome... .and roll with it.

Trying to talk and negotiate this out ahead of time... .well... .how has that worked out with other issues in the past?

FF

Yeah, I will do that.  I have to take my kids over there as they are all going to a movie.  Got the plans from my ex-wife (kids got the invite on instagram).  How weird is that?  Either she didn't remember it was my weekend or it's another "game" being played by her.  I'll take "Mindgames for $500, Alex".        It is sad that she doesn't realize how unhealthy this crap she pulls is.

[MaroonLiquid]

I think it is because she is so "driven" by the feeling of the moment... .that you need to test the waters and see what the "moment" is.

Here is the thing... .if she had invited you... .she could still wake up on wrong side of bed and tell you to take hike when you get there.

Also just as likely that you get there this weekend and she is pawing all over you... .

Only one way to find out... .

Make sure you have plenty of rest and are centered for either outcome... .and roll with it.

Trying to talk and negotiate this out ahead of time... .well... .how has that worked out with other issues in the past?

FF

Yeah, I will do that.  I have to take my kids over there as they are all going to a movie.  Got the plans from my ex-wife (kids got the invite on instagram).  How weird is that?  Either she didn't remember it was my weekend or it's another "game" being played by her.  I'll take "Mindgames for $500, Alex".       It is sad that she doesn't realize how unhealthy this crap she pulls is.

I haven't spoken to my wife since the last text she sent me about not being interested in spending time together for our daughter's birthday.  I'm proud of myself for cutting off communication when she sent me that.  I am so much stronger.  I'm curious to see how this weekend goes when I drop my daughters off at her house and how she acts.  This is the first time she has pulled away this hard when we had a good weekend together.  Usually, we then spend severl weeks together.  Any input on why this time was different?  I am not taking it personally, just wondering.

[mindwise]

From what your have written so far my guess is:

1- Since it was one of the best weekends spent together, you became very close, hence the pushing away got stronger this time

2- She usually acts flakey on birthdays or public events and the birthday is already this weekend (so she has anticipated the backing off during the week)

PLUS

3- Some other BPD hardwire stuff we do not know about

[KateCat]

I wonder if you aren't experiencing your greatest (and last, maybe?) battle with your wife: the one over children.

You've been making terrific progress reducing disputes over money. You're realizing good results from not "chasing" your wife when she goes silent. You have been heading steadily in a healthy direction.

And yet your wife is not at ease. She has strong unresolved feelings about men and fathers and family, it seems.

She knows you are a born father and family man. She knows this is your psychological "currency" in life.

Could she fear you will slip away as her kids hit adulthood (isn't this happening kind of right now?) and start out on their own lives? You and your biological children are all quite a bit younger than her and her biological children, I believe. Could she fear that you will soon replace her and her children with another family group? One that is just getting excited about joining sporting teams and interacting with inspiring coaches?

Could stuff like discouraging you from attending her daughter's birthday celebration be tied to fears of looming abandonment? A last-ditch assertion of her status as a mother?

ADDED: I agree with mindwise that there's likely some hardwired stuff going on. Probably the deepest stuff for her.

[MaroonLiquid]

From what your have written so far my guess is:

1- Since it was one of the best weekends spent together, you became very close, hence the pushing away got stronger this time

2- She usually acts flakey on birthdays or public events and the birthday is already this weekend (so she has anticipated the backing off during the week)

PLUS

3- Some other BPD hardwire stuff we do not know about

Good points... .

I wonder if you aren't experiencing your greatest (and last, maybe?) battle with your wife: the one over children.

Hmmm... .interesting... .This I haven't thought of... .When you say last, do you mean it's her last thing she can use against me?

You've been making terrific progress reducing disputes over money. You're realizing good results from not "chasing" your wife when she goes silent. You have been heading steadily in a healthy direction.

And yet your wife is not at ease. She has strong unresolved feelings about men and fathers and family, it seems.

Boy is this true.  She has started painting her dad white when she didn't talk to him for years until she painted her mom black about 6 months ago for a reason not fully known.  The reason she gave I think was only part of it.  But now, she is making a special trip to her hometown next month to see him and told me last weekend (had a long talk where she got emotional and I just listened and validated) she has no plans to see her mom.  She told me her dad isn't doing well and may not have much "time" left.  Her dad was a lot like her ex-husband in that he wasn't a good father, didn't pay child support and then abandoned her and her 5 siblings for years.  He always asks her to do things for him (when they are talking) where she can't win.  I know she is having some issues with that as well.  Regardless, that's her dad and I know that she loves him even though he was a terrible father.  That is her dad, good, bad or indifferent.  I validated that last weekend and she just cried.  I felt bad for her.

She knows you are a born father and family man. She knows this is your psychological "currency" in life.

Could she fear you will slip away as her kids hit adulthood (isn't this happening kind of right now?) and start out on their own lives?

Maybe she does, but I would never do that.  I want to spend the rest of my life with her.

You and your biological children are all quite a bit younger than her and her biological children, I believe.

I'm eleven years younger than her, and my oldest is the same age as her youngest, my middle is one year younger, and my son is 6.

Could she fear that you will soon replace her and her children with another family group? One that is just getting excited about joining sporting teams and interacting with inspiring coaches?

What do you mean here?

Could stuff like discouraging you from attending her daughter's birthday celebration be tied to fears of looming abandonment? A last-ditch assertion of her status as a mother?

Hmmm... .That's interesting... .I guess, but why would she want to keep me away if I'm asking to do something.  It's almost like she had a terrible father so she doesn't want better for her kids even though they know I'm a good dad.

ADDED: I agree with mindwise that there's likely some hardwired stuff going on. Probably the deepest stuff for her.

That's probably very true.  Wow... .