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Author Topic: Splitting, Push/Pull or Both?  (Read 787 times)
KateCat
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« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2015, 11:40:09 AM »

Could she fear that you will soon replace her and her children with another family group? One that is just getting excited about joining sporting teams and interacting with inspiring coaches?

My thought is that if your wife has experienced great family instability really . . . forever in her life, she has seen men walk away from their families. Her dad, her ex husband.

What if she knows exactly what you love in life--kids, sports, coaching, family? Young, promising lives, full of enthusiasm? What if she feels she's not going to have that to offer to you very soon? She's not really at that stage of life for much longer. Isn't her oldest son now a young adult?

So, I wonder if she could be fighting in a very unhealthy way to keep you--by withholding her children from you. Or making you work really hard to have access to them. By dangling them in front of you. By trying to keep power and control, where she feels it slipping away.

I could be barking up a completely wrong tree, but couldn't she fear being replaced by another, younger love interest who has little kids?

(I'm trying to think if I know more than just one--I do know one--couple where the wife is more than ten years older than the husband. It may not get easier for women to be in this situation, just in general, as time goes by.)
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2015, 11:52:04 AM »

My thought is that if your wife has experienced great family instability really . . . forever in her life, she has seen men walk away from their families. Her dad, her ex husband.

I get that.  That is the norm for her in her life.  That's what all OTHER men have done to her.

What if she knows exactly what you love in life--kids, sports, coaching, family? Young, promising lives, full of enthusiasm? What if she feels she's not going to have that to offer to you very soon?  She's not really at that stage of life for much longer. Isn't her oldest son now a young adult?


I get where you are coming from now. Haven't thought of that.  Her oldest just turned 18 and has one more year of high school. 


So, I wonder if she could be fighting in a very unhealthy way to keep you--by withholding her children from you. Or making you work really hard to have access to them. By dangling them in front of you. By trying to keep power and control, where she feels it slipping away.

This is where it gets hard, because how can you counter that when I continue to not be like those other people?  I continue to be there, I continue to want to be a part of the kids lives and I continue to not want a divorce. 

I could be barking up a completely wrong tree, but couldn't she fear being replaced by another, younger love interest who has little kids?

I don't think you are here.  I think there is some validity to it.  Great insight actually.  Again, what can I do to at least help it from my end, if anything?  I can't control her or how she acts and I know that.

I texted our daughter early this morning and wished her a happy birthday and told her I love her. 
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KateCat
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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2015, 12:05:56 PM »

What can a fellow do? I am just in awe of everything you have already done and are now doing.

I don't have a clue, except for one little thought that things could get better for the two of you when the step-kids really are all adults. That maybe then she will see the real you and not question your motivations. (Somehow the ideas of "abandonment" and "fear" and "suspicion" seem key in thinking about your wife. It's pretty clear she does love you and does not want to lose you and is definitely not looking to replace you with anyone else.)

Maybe renewed contact with her dad is a sign of something changing with your wife. Maybe she is thinking deeply. Maybe the ways in which you have changed are having an impact on her. Maybe things aren't really as stuck as they seem at this time.

Hmmm.

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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2015, 12:42:45 PM »

What can a fellow do? I am just in awe of everything you have already done and are now doing.

I don't have a clue, except for one little thought that things could get better for the two of you when the step-kids really are all adults. That maybe then she will see the real you and not question your motivations. (Somehow the ideas of "abandonment" and "fear" and "suspicion" seem key in thinking about your wife. It's pretty clear she does love you and does not want to lose you and is definitely not looking to replace you with anyone else.)

Maybe renewed contact with her dad is a sign of something changing with your wife. Maybe she is thinking deeply. Maybe the ways in which you have changed are having an impact on her. Maybe things aren't really as stuck as they seem at this time.

Hmmm.

Thanks Kate for at least encouraging me.  I definitely know things are better than they used to be!  That is for sure.
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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2015, 01:58:05 PM »

I texted my wife this morning to make plans to get together this weekend for our daughter's birthday.  She said our daughter had plans with her friends.  I said that I understood and didn't want to interfere, but wanted to get together after that.  Her response, "We're not interested in that, ML."  I didn't respond and won't.     What the heck is up with that? 

This is a bit off topic, but can I ask where your marriage is right now? I read through the thread and what you experienced is exactly what I am experiencing right now. However, I did go 2.5 years without experiencing any massive push/pull. I probably experienced some, but it was minor... .nothing like having a great time together and then putting up the wall.

Is your wife in therapy? Has she been in therapy? How long?
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2015, 03:52:31 PM »

I texted my wife this morning to make plans to get together this weekend for our daughter's birthday.  She said our daughter had plans with her friends.  I said that I understood and didn't want to interfere, but wanted to get together after that.  Her response, "We're not interested in that, ML."  I didn't respond and won't.     What the heck is up with that? 

This is a bit off topic, but can I ask where your marriage is right now? I read through the thread and what you experienced is exactly what I am experiencing right now. However, I did go 2.5 years without experiencing any massive push/pull. I probably experienced some, but it was minor... .nothing like having a great time together and then putting up the wall.

Is your wife in therapy? Has she been in therapy? How long?

We have been married technically for 5 years.  My wife had a major dysregulation summer of last year, kicked me out, painted me black as night to the family and it took 6 months before it actually got better.  We saw each other off and on but she would always pull something ridiculous on me (keeping my laptop, taking my car, etc) The dumbest thing I did was agree to leave the house.  We have been living separately for a year.  She is not in any T or counseling.  It is heartbreaking because she needs it and knows it.  I still want to be there for her and love her throught it.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2015, 08:19:21 AM »

     My wife texted me yesterday evening and asked a question about some information another coach was supposed to give me earlier in the week for her and our daughter (actually this it the third time I asked for it from him and still haven't received it).  I didn't see the text right away and she texted again and asked if she "needed to just take care of it herself".  i saw it a few minutes after that and responded with, "He told me he would send it and he hasn't.  This is extremely frustrating.  I will remind him again tonight at practice.", and left it at that.  I've really had to work hard and be cognizant to not apologize for other people's shortcomings.  I used to do that all the time.

     About 20 minutes later she texted and asked if I was bringing my girls to the birthday party.  I responded with, "Oh yeah!  They will be there!"  She then responded with what our daughter wanted for her birthday.  I said that I appreciated her letting me know and that I couldn't believe she was going to be a teenager. 

     Back to her opening text which had an almost triggering tone (at least it seemed to me).  I know I shouldn't look at emotion from text, but after I let her be, that's how she seems to re-open contact lately.  When I don't play into it or I validate whatever is going on, then healthy communication commences.  What could be the possible reason for this?  Is it because she is having a hard time with the fact that her silent treatment doesn't work on me anymore and frustrates her? 
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formflier
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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2015, 08:37:01 AM »

 

Maroon,

I've seen the same pattern.

It's almost like she "sighs" to herself... ."well... .he's not going to fight with me... .so I guess I'll have to talk to him normally... ."

Then... .at some point after several good days together... .she seems to realize things are close... .and pulls back...

Start cycle over again...

OBTW... .I think you are managing yourself well through these cycles. 


 
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mindwise
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2015, 09:53:39 AM »

I know I shouldn't look at emotion from text, but after I let her be, that's how she seems to re-open contact lately.  When I don't play into it or I validate whatever is going on, then healthy communication commences.  What could be the possible reason for this?  Is it because she is having a hard time with the fact that her silent treatment doesn't work on me anymore and frustrates her? 

In my opinion there's two (2) things:

1- As FF says, she learned what works to get your attention (practical)

2- Deep down, she is attracted to you, to your strength and your presence (emotional/non rational)

Stay centered, best wishes for the weekend Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2015, 04:51:32 PM »

     Last night, the birthday party for my daughter went great!  My wife gave me a big hug when I walked in and said "There's dad!"  We went and saw the movie Paper Towns with our kids and our daughters friend.  There was a triggering moment later in the evening when one of our daughters friends called and ask if she could go to camp with her and my daughters this week starting today.  Our daughter got upset when my wife told her no and pouted.  My wife got pretty upset and said to me, "Why is nothing ever good enough and why did this just come up at the last minute?"  I validated how frustrating it is that people waited till the last minute and that she made the right decision to say no considering our daughters prior commitments this week.  It took her a minute to calm down, but she did.  We went home a little bit later and she texted me and thanked me for making her birthday special.  

    I'm currently at my wife's house at the moment and completely sidestepped a triggered moment in my wife.  We were at lunch and my son and our daughter were in the play place.  She had made a comment about boxing and how she hasn't gone in a month.  I said, "Why haven't you gone?  You loved it."  She said, "Because the IRS took all that money out of my check!  How are we going to square that between us.  It isn't fair"  I said, "They are taking money out of my checks based on what I make so that's all I can do."  She then said, "What are we going to do about the divorce?"  I said very calmly and matter of fact, "I don't want to do anything about it. I love you and want us to work."  She turned her head to the side (sort of looked mad) and the kids walked up and we changed the subject.  Everything was fine after that.  We came back to her place and she's taking a nap currently while I work on her computer (I offered).  It's amazing how things have gone the last several times we've been together.  It's been almost, "BPD normal-ish"  Smiling (click to insert in post). and healthy.  We've kissed and loved on each other and I've really enjoyed our time together.
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« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2015, 05:26:53 PM »



Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2015, 12:06:15 AM »

Wow, so my wife had a very self aware moment at the end of our time together today and got extremely triggered.  I don't remember what we were talking about exactly, or how we got on the subject, but I mentioned dissociation.  We were holding hands and just sitting talking.  She said, "Yeah, I have so much of my childhood that I don't remember.  I have no memories." She then started crying.  Then, she changed and brought up divorce and said, "I don't want pain for my kids and just want to get the divorce finalized.  It's going to take working through the IRS debt together.  Why won't you work with me.  Can you answer why you won't take care of your part of the IRS debt?"  I said, "I am.  As I've said, they are taking money out of my check and I'm taking care of what I can and still take care of my bills."  She said, "It's not fair as I bring home more than you do.  :)o you think it's fair?"  I responded with, "I would probably feel the same way and understand your point of view.  I still have to pay my bills and live."  She said, "I won't go back to the way it was a year and a half ago.  When we separated then, I left that relationship behind. I can't go back."  I said, "I hear you, and I won't go back to that unhealthy relationship either.  I want a healthy loving relationship with you.  Our relationship is much healthier now than it was even six months ago"  I could tell she was maybe getting upset that I was remaining very calm and loving through this.  She said, "Why do you want to cost me money and time and not just work with me on the divorce and move forward?  It's just a piece of paper.  It will just cause more headaches if you continue to do nothing.  Can you answer me why you won't help with getting this done?"  I said, "Sure I can."  She said, "Ok, then just level with me."  I said, "I've held on because I don't want a divorce.  I pray and consider what's right for me.  I want to be there for you, our children and be the husband that you need.  I love you very much."  She just kind of looked away (couldn't tell if she was mad or what) and I said, "I need to go to the restroom (which I did), I'll be right back."  She said, "Ok."  When I got out, she was changing into her pajamas.  She came out and said she was going to bed.  I said no problem and got my stuff and she said bye and gave a big hug to my son.  She told him that maybe we could go swimming together tomorrow.  As I was walking out the door, she gave me a "half-hearted" hug and we left.  I texted her when I got to my apartment like I said I would and said, We are at my apartment.  We had a great day with you."  I also texted, "Thank you for opening up to me about your childhood.  It's painful to not have many memories that are good from your childhood.  I am always here for you and will just listen if that's what you need.  Sleep well my love."  She didn't text me back and that's ok.  The cool thing was she never raised her voice and I stayed calm the whole time.  I even took time to answer and to make sure I was calm.  We had a great day together!
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formflier
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« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2015, 06:13:13 AM »

 

Solid... .solid... .awesome.

My guess is that she heard you that you do not want a divorce.

She tossed out other things you could have argued about... .and you let them go (such as ... "it's just a piece of paper"... )

also... .very wise to say it... .move along... (go to bathroom)

Given her past patterns... .what do you think the next week will be like?

FF
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mindwise
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« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2015, 06:22:54 AM »

ML,

Great to read that your daughters birthday went great! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Very good job applying the tools (ie:validation). It's helping to improve the way both of you interact in person Being cool (click to insert in post)

She opened up to talk about her childhood (and dissociation). IMHO, inner core stuff = reality check =  self awareness = possibly overwhelming

Those conversations can be tricky. We, the NONs, might feel good because our partner is opening up, expressing, sharing truth, we feel like we are bonding, healthier, etc. But from our partner perspective it might be a whole different experience (triggering, overwhelming, painful). My stance is that I don't bring the conversation unless she does it first. I remain very quiet, listen, repeat back some of the things she says (don't make interpretations) and if she gives cues for my advice I ask super simple questions. Sometimes she feels very validated if I can relate to some of her experiences. If she cries I let the energy dissipate. I never bring back the topic ever again because I don't want her to associate me with her past, with her pain, with overwhelming emotions. Those are things that must be worked out with a T, a great one.

As for the divorce talk:

- I think it's perfectly good (and necessary) that you express your point of view + feelings

- Her verbal + non verbal language indicate she is at a different place (today)

- How would you feel if the roles were inversed? What would bring you close to your partner?

Push/Pull stuff:

- Watch out for saying too many "I love yous, my love, etc" or giving too much a "things are better" vibe. If she doesn't reciprocate, the more you tell her "I love you" the more uncomfortable she will feel. She will perceive more difference between what you feel and what she feels (may cause her to push you away)

- So if she holds hands, great, hold hands. If she is ok with kissing, even better

- Less is more, take it slow, light hearted and stay centered

Keep up the great things you're doing so far Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

mw

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KateCat
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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2015, 09:10:05 AM »

- Watch out for saying too many "I love yous, my love, etc" or giving too much a "things are better" vibe. If she doesn't reciprocate, the more you tell her "I love you" the more uncomfortable she will feel. She will perceive more difference between what you feel and what she feels (may cause her to push you away)

- So if she holds hands, great, hold hands. If she is ok with kissing, even better

- Less is more, take it slow, light hearted and stay centered

Ah, this is it! I think this bit of advice fits your situation like a glove.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2015, 10:57:50 AM »

Yesterday was another very good day with my wife.  I wasn't sure if I would hear from her after the 'talk" thie night before, but wasn't worried about it.  I texted and asked if they wanted to go swimming with us.  She said, "When it gets a little cooler, but until then, would you like to come over?"  I said, "Sure".  My son and I spent the day at her house.  She started to not feel well late in the day and got a pretty bad migraine.  Once I dropped my son off to my ex-wife, I took care of her and she laid next to me on her bed while I held her in darkness for like three hours until the pain subsided.  She asked me if I needed to go, and I responded and said, "I am going to stay with you throughout the night and make sure you are ok."  She thanked me for being so kind and told me she really appreciated me being there for her.  I told her that it sucks when we feel bad and feel like there is no one there to take care of us.  She nodded and kissed me.  A few minutes later her dad called and asked that she get up and write something down.  Thinking it was important, she got up to get a pen.  He told her what it was and she said, ":)ad, can I call you about this tomorrow, I have a migraine and I don't feel good.  I'm lying down in the dark because the light is really hurting my eyes."  He said, "It will only take a second."  She couldn't tell him no and that's how their relationship goes.  Anyway, she got off the phone and said, "He just doesn't get it.  He wants what he wants right then and it doesn't matter what I told him." (that sounds familiar  Smiling (click to insert in post))  I validated that and said, "It hurts when we tell our parents something and feel like it doesn't matter to them.  That has always been a struggle for me too!"  She said, "Yeah, I just want to say, ":)id you hear what I just said?" but know it won't do any good and have come to that realization with my parents."  I nodded and said, "You're right and have come to the same with mine."  She snuggled up to me again and said, "I really appreciate you being here."  I said, "You're welcome.  I love you."  She responded and said, "I love you too." and gave me a kiss.  We had great intimate sex and after she said, "If only we could work through all the hard things in the relationship as easily as we do the rest of it."  I simply said, "I know we can if we just work together."  She nodded and kissed me goodnight.  It was another great weekend.  We are putting one good weekend behind another.

Given her past patterns... .what do you think the next week will be like?

FF

If she pulls back some, that's ok.  I will let her be.  I do believe that she heard that I didn't want a divorce and now I believe it comforts her when I tell her that.

- Watch out for saying too many "I love yous, my love, etc" or giving too much a "things are better" vibe. If she doesn't reciprocate, the more you tell her "I love you" the more uncomfortable she will feel. She will perceive more difference between what you feel and what she feels (may cause her to push you away)

- So if she holds hands, great, hold hands. If she is ok with kissing, even better

- Less is more, take it slow, light hearted and stay centered

Keep up the great things you're doing so far Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

mw

I do watch how many times I say that.  In fact, I don't say it hardly at all anymore.  I'm very good now about staying centered. 
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« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2015, 05:06:48 AM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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