My child's birthday.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Tomorrow is my daughter's second birthday... .As many of you know my ex vanished with my child and she went into hiding and silent treatment with me it was over a year before we caught her and I got full custody of my baby. Well my ex wants to be with her for her birthday. I said yeah sure . You can't see her because you made me miss everything with her. Could someone talk me out of being so vindictive... .I do not want to use my child as a prop to get even but it's coming to it. I'm so mad at her. Still.

[hurting300]

Tomorrow is my daughter's second birthday... .As many of you know my ex vanished with my child and she went into hiding and silent treatment with me it was over a year before we caught her and I got full custody of my baby. Well my ex wants to be with her for her birthday. I said yeah sure . You can't see her because you made me miss everything with her. Could someone talk me out of being so vindictive... .I do not want to use my child as a prop to get even but it's coming to it. I'm so mad at her. Still.

[Mutt]

Hi hurting300,

I can understand how distressing that would feel that you didn't see your baby for a year. That's tough.

When is the last time D saw mom? I understand that you have full custody and what is your ex proposing? She visits D with you? Does she want to have her for a visit with her?

How is D2 coping? My S is turning 4 next week and he was young when mom and dad split, he was younger than your D. It was hard for him not seeing dad. I had the kids every second weekend until I got a court order.

[Turkish]

How is your daughter coping? What's best for her, and most importantly (and this may be hard to seperate from your feelings), what's best to keep your baby emotionally safe?

[hurting300]

The court gave me the authority to decide visits with the mother because she is a flight risk. The child is adjusting well to her new home with me. I'm just angry. I do not want to be that kind of parent. I'm just really wanting to "get even". I have a feeling she is just using the child for leverage. My ex has only seen our baby once since court and she is already behind on child support. I just want to be the bigger person. It's hard.

[Turkish]

How is your D doing? Does she ask for Mommy? Do you have support from a T to navigate this? You're defaulting to protecting your child, that's good...

[Mutt]

I can understand angry feelings. If the judge decided that she us a flight risk I think that telegraphs how serious the situation is.

I think that we need to provide emotional support and guidance as the non-disordered parent and it can be very frustrating when we have a mentally ill ex partner.

I agree with Turkish and your D is young. There's a day that she'll have her own feelings to sort through about mom. I can understand wanting to get back at your ex partner, I can relate.

She doesn't have control with how I conduct myself and I choose to emotionally support and guide my kids, I can see the positive effects that I have on my kids with validation, and being hands-on. She is their mother and they view her with unconditional love and they may have their own feelings and questions about her behaviors in the future and I would like that they don't have resentful feelings towards dad.

It can be incredibly frustrating with mom. For example with daycare and she had talked about wanting to pull them out and it was stressful. I found out from the director at the daycare that she had renewed her subsidy until 2016 and she has said nothing to me about it. It's sneaky and it shows how she acts like a child sometimes.

I get it. I think getting even is trying to do what's best for the kids, guide and emotionally support them, not have the kids in the middle of divorce poison and talking bad about mom etc and being the best dad that you can be, be a rock for her. She'll appreciate you for it later on.

You may just need some more time behind you? I understand that it's not always easy taking the high road and are you having conflicted feelings? Do you feel like letting mom be there at D's birthday?

[hurting300]

The way I feel now it's like I'm disordered. I know i shouldn't be this way. And believe me i want to stop this thought process because it's not normal. The mother will be allowed to visit my home during the party. However I made it clear she is to get into therapy before she can have any type of relationship with the child. If she truly loves our child she'll get help. You know, it completely rips my heart out when my ex calls. I remember two years ago we would date and laugh. I pray she'll get well. I know it's not her fault.

[hurting300]

How is your D doing? Does she ask for Mommy? Do you have support from a T to navigate this? You're defaulting to protecting your child, that's good...

she does ask from time to time. And I think she is doing good for the most part.

[Mutt]

The way I feel now it's like I'm disordered. I know i shouldn't be this way. And believe me i want to stop this thought process because it's not normal. The mother will be allowed to visit my home during the party. However I made it clear she is to get into therapy before she can have any type of relationship with the child. If she truly loves our child she'll get help. You know, it completely rips my heart out when my ex calls. I remember two years ago we would date and laugh. I pray she'll get well. I know it's not her fault.

I can understand how frustrating it would be when we're tired of feeling like we're disordered. Don't be hard on yourself. I think it takes time to reach a place of acceptance.

Have you heard of radical acceptance?

[hurting300]

The way I feel now it's like I'm disordered. I know i shouldn't be this way. And believe me i want to stop this thought process because it's not normal. The mother will be allowed to visit my home during the party. However I made it clear she is to get into therapy before she can have any type of relationship with the child. If she truly loves our child she'll get help. You know, it completely rips my heart out when my ex calls. I remember two years ago we would date and laugh. I pray she'll get well. I know it's not her fault.

I can understand how frustrating it would be when we're tired of feeling like we're disordered. Don't be hard on yourself. I think it takes time to reach a place of acceptance.

Have you heard of radical acceptance?

yes I've heard of it but I'm not sure what to think of it. I told the therapist i wanted revenge. And she said it's normal to and you did win the war. If I won so much then why does it feel like I lost? What exactly did i win? I had to fight for my baby or I would have never seen her again. So now my ex really hates my guts. But she can't seem to understand that she did wrong.

[LimboFL]

Hurting, I cannot even begin to comprehend what you went through without your child, for an entire year. To add to that, that you didn't know where they were to the equation is simply outside of anything I could even imagine.

It is a catastrophically difficult contemplation you are facing.

May I ask if your ex treated your daughter well, during that year? This comes with the understanding that it is all relative, consider BPD, but do you feel that your daughter was safe, fed, cared for etc?

If the answer is yes (again baring the difficulties we all face as parents) then I believe that annexing your D from her Mother could do quite a lot of damage, to a child that has already been through a great deal. I do not say any of this lightly. The emotional mountain that you have to climb to get to that point is harrowing and heart wrenching, at best.

You also risk damaging your own relationship with your daughter, because as she gets older, she might blame you for not having allowed her to be with her Mom.

I am sadly confident that your stipulation (get help) will go unaccomplished, no matter how severe the stakes. Your hope and desire is very loving and honorable.

Depending on your ex's connection to her daughter, you could also do more damage to your ex, who might then lose the connection and then there are three damaged people in the mix, you, your daughter and your ex.

We all know how much of an impact our young childhoods have on us. We speak of BPD's and their damage coming from infancy, so I believe that we shouldn't rely on your D's youth to hold off on critical decisions.

Please know that I am trying to see things from a non emotional position. As mentioned, I have the greatest empathy for your situation. You are clearly a very kind and loving man who has been thrust into this soul crushing situation simply because you fell in love with a person with a mental disorder. That is why we are all here and like so many you clearly still care deeply for your ex and have deep empathy for the pain she has and continues to endure. So again, please do not see my response as being in any way flippant. I have a beautiful 14 year old son, so I understand the emotions perfectly. Fortunately, he was born of a marriage to a non. My exBPD put a strain on my relationship with my boy.

As others have stated, at this point, despite your anger and justifiable heartache, ultimately decisions have to based on what is best for the child. It is one thing if the ex severs ties and runs off, but clearly your ex years for her child, so there is a natural bond. (supervised visitation)

Stay strong. While we are a bunch of unknowns, BPD Family are all here to support you.

[iluminati]

I'm in a somewhat similar situation in that I have primary custody of my D, though my ex hasn't proven a flight risk.  My exwBPD currently has visitation every other weekend.  What I would do with the birthday (and with any sort of contact going forward) is to focus on events.  Make sure your ex has a chance to visit, but make sure there are plenty of people around so that she's never alone with your D.  Obviously an order to visit limitation demonstrates the seriousness of the situation.  However, your D has a mother that is alive.  She deserves at least the opportunity to develop a relationship with her.  I know the tendency is to say screw you, but it isn't worth it in the long run.

[hurting300]

I totally agree with everyone here. And her grandma had to help with the baby most of the time because she can't hold down a job for long at all. I want them to have a relationship for sure. But I'm scared she'll run again. I guess that part that bothers me is all the professionals are telling me not to feel sorry for her because she knows full well what she is doing and don't let my guard down.

[Mutt]

Hi hurting300,

Do you feel confused with what the professionals told you and how you feel with your values? I'm picking up that you shouldn't feel the way that you feel. Is that it? What did they say about your D and her feelings about mom?

[hurting300]

Hi hurting300,

Do you feel confused with what the professionals told you and how you feel with your values? I'm picking up that you shouldn't feel the way that you feel. Is that it? What did they say about your D and her feelings about mom?

my values are to have compassion but to hold people responsible for there actions. It's a tough balance. They are telling me to give mom a chance but monitoring is key. I think I need to slack off the one track thinking and just give a chance but be careful.

[Mutt]

 

You have the right ideas.

I think you can cut yourself some slack.

Your experience was emotionally distressing and reaching acceptance can take time.

[LimboFL]

If all of the "professionals" are telling you not to feel sorry for your ex and that everything is calculated, then IMHO you need to speak with other professionals. The only excuse that the former group might have is if their sole interest is in helping you heal but there is a child in the mix. You fell in love with this woman, so only you can truly know.

With that said, clearly, as she has proven to be a flight risk, they are correct that you can't trust her ever again, to be alone with your daughter. Even saying this is horrible. I have a friend facing the exact situation that you are in and it has been a battle and doesn't get any better. A very real consequence of all of this is that the pwBPD disregulate even more because of the separation and stress that comes with this process. So their mental state gets even worse.

I am so deeply sorry for you, your daughter and your ex. This disorder is so cruel to all involved. Short of the supervised visitation component, I would ignore the "professionals". Go with your gut as it pertains to how you evaluate your ex's emotions in all of this. As I say time and time again, pwBPD are human beings, who have the disorder because of how poorly they were treated. It takes time and a lot of will power to heal and empathize. Again, the only objective here is to always think of your daughter and the impact decisions will have on her own mental health.

Stay strong. We are all rooting for you and hoping for the best, in arduous conditions.

[hurting300]

If all of the "professionals" are telling you not to feel sorry for your ex and that everything is calculated, then IMHO you need to speak with other professionals. The only excuse that the former group might have is if their sole interest is in helping you heal but there is a child in the mix. You fell in love with this woman, so only you can truly know.

With that said, clearly, as she has proven to be a flight risk, they are correct that you can't trust her ever again, to be alone with your daughter. Even saying this is horrible. I have a friend facing the exact situation that you are in and it has been a battle and doesn't get any better. A very real consequence of all of this is that the pwBPD disregulate even more because of the separation and stress that comes with this process. So their mental state gets even worse.

I am so deeply sorry for you, your daughter and your ex. This disorder is so cruel to all involved. Short of the supervised visitation component, I would ignore the "professionals". Go with your gut as it pertains to how you evaluate your ex's emotions in all of this. As I say time and time again, pwBPD are human beings, who have the disorder because of how poorly they were treated. It takes time and a lot of will power to heal and empathize. Again, the only objective here is to always think of your daughter and the impact decisions will have on her own mental health.

Stay strong. We are all rooting for you and hoping for the best, in arduous conditions.

I've seen her do calculated things. But I respect what your saying and I think your right.

[enlighten me]

Hi Hurting

I can understand your pain. Sometimes we have to put that aside for the sake of our children. We have to consider how our children will feel years down the line. Could you live with having your daughter resenting you for not letting her have a relationship with her mum?

I can understand you want to have precautions. I certainly wouldn't let my ex have my son on her own if she had done what your ex did.

Your daughters birthday is an ideal situation for her to see her daughter in a safe environment with you surrounded by friends and family.

Another thing to consider is further down the line if she takes you back to court how will it look if you haven't given her any access?

Ive had to do a number of shared birthdays and Christmases all at my exs place. It hurts at the end of the day I had to leave my children behind. Apart from that its not the most comfortable situation to be in.

[ScaredScarred]

Wow, I can relate. I'm new here, so it's surprising for me to find people who are telling my story. Right down to the "i won but feel like i lost" sentiment. My exBPD, 2 year old daughter's father (don't know all the acronyms), doesn't see/understand what he did wrong either. His mom posted something on my facebook that's spoken to me: "you can't change someone who doesn't see an issue with their actions".

I guess we can hold our babies tight knowing that they're safe, grin through our teeth on birthdays, and try and come to radical acceptance of the role we play in reducing the conflict in our child's life.

I look at it this way when I have a clearer head: i may look back at the good stuff 2+ years ago, but he's not that person anymore, and if the courts see it from a safety perspective, then i need to see it. not for me, but for my daughter. i am a victim of recycling domestic violence, and sometimes i need to be given the tools to build the skills to get to where I need to be so I can role model healthy living for my daughter, which I can't do if I'm reacting and responding in a codependent way rather than an empowered, resilient way.

Plus, if I give him an inch, he takes the whole mile of toilet paper with his crap, so it's easier to not let it get started than trying to reign it in once it starts. if i poke the beast, or allow the beast in to my safe zone (one that the courts have legitimated), i have started something that i can't control after the first boundary violation.

I hope your daughter had/has a happy birthday. And that you were able to smile for her even if you were dying on the inside. She'll remember that smile long after the shiny lights and pretty presents and fairweather people are gone.

[/quote]
yes I've heard of it but I'm not sure what to think of it. I told the therapist i wanted revenge. And she said it's normal to and you did win the war. If I won so much then why does it feel like I lost? What exactly did i win? I had to fight for my baby or I would have never seen her again. So now my ex really hates my guts. But she can't seem to understand that she did wrong. [/quote]

[david]

My view is our kids are the most important part of anything I do or decide no matter what my ex wants to do. I always make my decisions based on that belief.

My ex is not diagnosed but exhibits all criteria except maybe suicidal ideation and even that is questionable.

If my ex ever did get the help she needs and does get better I figure I would see it clearly. Until that time I will not trust anything she says to me. With that in mind I figure that if she did get better she would then understand why I did the things I did and realize I was doing what was best for our kids.

If the courts view her as a flight risk I would take that very seriously.

Supervised visitation is a possibility if you don't want to see or be near her. Just find someone you can trust and possibly let the police know ahead of time in case ex tries something and the police get involved.

[Stolen]

Hurting,

I know too well the feelings of revenge and vindictiveness.  I am not an overly religious person, but I regularly ask God for forgiveness for wanting His power of judgement. 

In my case my daughters were separated, isolated, and then effectively alienated from me.  Deliberate, aggressive, and brutally effective.  The one thought that helps is "Revenge is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies"  (or something like that).  It helps me see these feelings for what they are: destructive to me. 

Not for her sake, but for yours, try to relinquish the revenge out of pure selfishness, your health and well-being depend on it. 

[hurting300]

Hurting,

I know too well the feelings of revenge and vindictiveness.  I am not an overly religious person, but I regularly ask God for forgiveness for wanting His power of judgement. 

In my case my daughters were separated, isolated, and then effectively alienated from me.  Deliberate, aggressive, and brutally effective.  The one thought that helps is "Revenge is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies"  (or something like that).  It helps me see these feelings for what they are: destructive to me. 

Not for her sake, but for yours, try to relinquish the revenge out of pure selfishness, your health and well-being depend on it. 

I'm not seeking revenge now. She is actually doing a good job of it on her own. But she disappeared with our child for a year or more. So I have to be careful.

[Turkish]

Agree with being careful. Your Ex demonstrated that she can't be trusted. You were vindicated in court. I'm curious, have you thought about posting the details of how this played out legally on the legal board? At this pont, a summary. It may help others, while giving you space to continue to process this. That is, being a mentor there. You've been through this and despite the struggles, pain, and anger, come out of it.

[hurting300]

Agree with being careful. Your Ex demonstrated that she can't be trusted. You were vindicated in court. I'm curious, have you thought about posting the details of how this played out legally on the legal board? At this pont, a summary. It may help others, while giving you space to continue to process this. That is, being a mentor there. You've been through this and despite the struggles, pain, and anger, come out of it.

yeah I could definitely do that. I'm trying too figure out how to give advise without sounding to angry and vindictive you know? I've gotten better, but the only way to win in court against them is to show proof. Record, video and audio. And be honest. Sometimes you have to get on the BPD level ... .Some of the things I did to get answers would look like stalking and obsessing but like the judge said (any parent would go to extreme lengths to get their baby back from danger)...

[enlighten me]

Hi Hurting

Its been a long road for you and you are not the same person you where when you first came here. I saw your first post the other day and your response to seeing it.

I have a similar but different situation if that makes sense. My boys now live with me. The difference is they no longer want anything to do with their mum. Its their decision and I have to respect it. My dilemma is how will they feel in a few years time? Will they regret their decision? Will it have an effect on them in later life? What if their mum does something and they then blame themselves for it?

Their mums not a flight risk so I don't have that worry. Its also the boys decision so they cant blame me for not having a relationship with their mum. I do still worry though.

Having contact with your daughter could be whats needed for your ex to start sorting out her life. It may be enough to make her a mum.

At the end of the day all our circumstances are different. What we all have in common is that to make a balanced decision we have to take everything into consideration.

EM

[hurting300]

Hi Hurting

Its been a long road for you and you are not the same person you where when you first came here. I saw your first post the other day and your response to seeing it.

I have a similar but different situation if that makes sense. My boys now live with me. The difference is they no longer want anything to do with their mum. Its their decision and I have to respect it. My dilemma is how will they feel in a few years time? Will they regret their decision? Will it have an effect on them in later life? What if their mum does something and they then blame themselves for it?

Their mums not a flight risk so I don't have that worry. Its also the boys decision so they cant blame me for not having a relationship with their mum. I do still worry though.

Having contact with your daughter could be whats needed for your ex to start sorting out her life. It may be enough to make her a mum.

At the end of the day all our circumstances are different. What we all have in common is that to make a balanced decision we have to take everything into consideration.

EM

Fear is what is keeping me from letting her visit. What if I turn my back and she runs? And I have to remember she purposely hurt me over our child. Just to make a point that she could. I told her, therapy or no visit, not even a phone call. Well I didn't tell her, my letter that I wrote did. I feel terrible for my ex I really do but it's like trusting a starving lion. If you guys could just see how cold and ruthless she is you would understand. It's mind boggling just how cunning she is .

[enlighten me]

I can totally relate. My ex wife used my sons as a weapon. Not allowing access. Manipulating them. Threatening that I wouldn't see them. I know how low they can stoop. You have to do what is necessary to protect your daughter.

I don't think there is a safer scenario for your ex to see her than a family birthday. With your daughter the centre attention and surrounded by friends and family. At the end of the day its your call and you have to do what you are comfortable with.

I can fully understand you wanting her to seek therapy. Unfortunately forced therapy seldom works. They can go through the motions to get what they want. I saw a program on prison rehabilitation where psychopaths used therapy to hone their skills.

[ambivalentmom]

Good Afternoon,

    I meant to write earlier today, but wanted to spend some time reading your previous posts.  I really only wanted to support you and tell you that you are not her and are not turning into a parent who uses their child to get back at the other parent.  You came to this site for support and honest communication on what to do.  You are an amazing father!  

I hope everything is working out and always know that your feelings are appropriate.  Your children are your whole world.  Hurting your children, taking them away, or turning them against you is the worst thing anyone can do.  Stay strong and try hard to always look at mom visits as impartially as possible.  You want to calculate risk associated with your daughter knowing her mom.  Please let us know how things have been going lately.

[momtara]

If she is a flight risk, under no circumstances should you let the child be alone with her. Period.

However, if you can use or hire a trustworthy supervisor for a visit, or something else where you are assured she can't run away or hurt the child, perhaps you can do that.

The issue of your emotional need for revenge is separate. I think it's natural as long as you don't let it hurt anyone. But you also want your ex to realize or acknowledge what she did wrong. That's very difficult for a PD person. It's possible it will happen in time. The fact that you got your D2 and that you are trying to force her into counseling before she can have a relationship with your D does make her feel small, so in a way she is getting the brunt of karma.

Hopefully your D2 can have a relationship with her mother someday and not in a way that puts her at risk.

[hurting300]

Thanks for the advise everyone, I've not got a problem with my child seeing my ex at all. What I'm trying to do is reestablish a bond with her and just take things slowly. I'm trying to get out of revenge mode because seriously it's stupid on my part.

[Turkish]

Be safe. Your child's safety is paramount until she gets a lot older. You know this.

I get the revenge thing. Though my Ex is high-functioning, I have thoughts about exposing her. S5 was written up at school for biting a kid this week. Two years is Sunday school, pre school and pre-kindergarten, and this was the first incident. He told the school, "I was angry because Mommy was mad at me the morning." Turns out that on Sunday there was an incident where he ran off from his mom and her family, angry and invalidated. It bugged me that 6 or 7 adults couldn't handle a 5 yo. Wednesday, I talked to my Ex's husband (affair partner) to get his take on it. That was tough for me, but I needed more data.

Time by itself doesn't heal all wounds. It takes perserverence. I'm trying. You're trying, too. My locus is my kids: what's best for them. I hate my anger. Two years out, I don't like that I still feel such strong emotions. I'm working on it. You're working on it. Accept it, and keep moving. For what it's worth, I'm with you man.

[enlighten me]

Hi Hurting

It is hard to get out of that mind set. I had it for a long time. Its not good for us. That bitterness can become like a cancer eating away at us.

Im glad your working at letting it go.

Im sure we all know someone that wasn't able to let go of this and has remained bitter. Its not a nice thing to see and I don't think anyone wants to be that person.

Im sure you'll work something out that protects your daughter and you are comfortable with.

[hurting300]

Sometimes I think I'm lucky because I was able to really see her disorder written thru out her diaries... .Her life played out all on paper it's amazing really. My people think a lot is wrong with her than a simple personality disorder is how they put it. So it's hard to explain really. NASA top men would have a hard time hahaha sorry a bit of family guy humor there. Anger is good but I don't like it now. I just want her better. The first eight months I prayed that they both were safe and happy ... .Have you ever been sitting at a red light and all of a sudden a memory pops up and you cry? Or taking a walking and thinking your having a heart attack the pain is so bad? This has been a nightmare for me. We even went to the same college and I never notice her until that one faithful day online... .It's like God placed her to me but I can't figure out why .

[scraps66]

Validation.  It is ok to be angry - it is understandable to be angry.  Running away with a child is a HUGE issue.  Now it's just how you cope with that anger.  You've acknowledged the anger and that means you can find some means of coping with the emotion.

One thing that I've found happens when evaluating these situations, it's enstilled by the BP, is that you the NON question your decisions and ask whether we are the disordered one.  Some of the paranoid type reactions do at times seem like we are the disordered party.  Some of the things my ex does are extremely difficult to explain or understand not having the history.  So if you feel/sense something may not be advisable, your gut telling you, you are probably well justified in trusting your gut.

Rationalizing could work here too, has ex gotten any help for her disorder in the timespan that you've had you daughter back?  If not, why would she change.

As far as wanting her to change, probably wasted energy there.  You can't do it for her and wishing she changes is a loss of time and energy.  Brutal but true.  With denial being such a huge coping skill for BPs, it is difficult to even consider change.  My ex gets to the point that she will repeat her distortions as if they are reality - gets so deep into her distortions that they create her (false) reality.   

[david]

My ex literally emptied our house back in 2007. I mean everything. The house had 47 electrical plate covers. She took them all. I had to buy new ones so that is why I know how many. We had three bathrooms and she took all the toilet paper holders. I mean everything except in our attic. She left an empty box and on top was a journal she wrote about two years prior to us meeting and 6 months to a year afterwards. That did help me "understand" who she really was too.

[hurting300]

My ex literally emptied our house back in 2007. I mean everything. The house had 47 electrical plate covers. She took them all. I had to buy new ones so that is why I know how many. We had three bathrooms and she took all the toilet paper holders. I mean everything except in our attic. She left an empty box and on top was a journal she wrote about two years prior to us meeting and 6 months to a year afterwards. That did help me "understand" who she really was too.

wow man. Did we date the same woman ? And you know, they tell on themselves as well, just remember back and she probably told you how she was. It amazes me why they would leave behind such private thoughts

[hurting300]

Validation.  It is ok to be angry - it is understandable to be angry.  Running away with a child is a HUGE issue.  Now it's just how you cope with that anger.  You've acknowledged the anger and that means you can find some means of coping with the emotion.

One thing that I've found happens when evaluating these situations, it's enstilled by the BP, is that you the NON question your decisions and ask whether we are the disordered one.  Some of the paranoid type reactions do at times seem like we are the disordered party.  Some of the things my ex does are extremely difficult to explain or understand not having the history.  So if you feel/sense something may not be advisable, your gut telling you, you are probably well justified in trusting your gut.

Rationalizing could work here too, has ex gotten any help for her disorder in the timespan that you've had you daughter back?  If not, why would she change.

As far as wanting her to change, probably wasted energy there.  You can't do it for her and wishing she changes is a loss of time and energy.  Brutal but true.  With denial being such a huge coping skill for BPs, it is difficult to even consider change.  My ex gets to the point that she will repeat her distortions as if they are reality - gets so deep into her distortions that they create her (false) reality.   

yes it is wasted energy. My psychologist told me is very grim chance she'll ever change.

[ForeverDad]

I've often written what I've learned here... .

• Courts generally don't try to change the parents, they deal with them as they are.



• Unless the disordered person gets into intensive therapy and actually applies it throughout thinking, perceptions and behaviors, then yes change is very unlikely and we would be fools to hope otherwise.

If the court gave you discretion to decide on how much visitation to allow, then the court trusts you to have good judgment.  Use it wisely, don't feel guilted or obligated to be the Overly Nice Guy.  It's okay to say, "Not now, perhaps later."  It probably would be a kindness to state what improvements "later" would require.  Whether and to what extent you tie it to her getting into therapy and other requirements is, I guess, also up to you.  You may be able to get her there to appointments but whether she actually does anything with the therapy - and not faking it - is largely out of your control.

[hurting300]

I've often written what I've learned here... .

• Courts generally don't try to change the parents, they deal with them as they are.



• Unless the disordered person gets into intensive therapy and actually applies it throughout thinking, perceptions and behaviors, then yes change is very unlikely and we would be fools to hope otherwise.

If the court gave you discretion to decide on how much visitation to allow, then the court trusts you to have good judgment.  Use it wisely, don't feel guilted or obligated to be the Overly Nice Guy.  It's okay to say, "Not now, perhaps later."  It probably would be a kindness to state what improvements "later" would require.  Whether and to what extent you tie it to her getting into therapy and other requirements is, I guess, also up to you.  You may be able to get her there to appointments but whether she actually does anything with the therapy - and not faking it - is largely out of your control.

I feel sorry for my ex, but ... .I don't play games now. I'm very stern with her. I'm actually starting not to care if she gets help or not. She's 30 years old and from what I was told knows right from wrong. So it's up to her. I'm just focusing on my baby and getting her raised up right. And yes the court trusted me with my other daughter that I have full custody of. The secret is to winning in court for men is to gather information on your enemy and stay calm.

[DreamGirl]

So I'm also a parent who has full custody of her child --- well, "had" full custody. He's 19 now.

It's really, really important that you remain grounded in this. Your feelings of hurt and anger and wanting revenge and vindictiveness are pretty normal, we feel what we feel right?  But withholding a child from the other parent based on our own feelings is not OK.

I say that because sometimes we have a hard time when we are so emotionally involved in the situation. I was very, very worried about all the things you are worried about --- from kidnapping (cause, well, he threatened in a moment of anger towards me) to my son being confused or hurt --- and it's all valid. It's also important that he know his dad. We're also not always well equipped to know exactly on how to properly handle the situation because we're so emotionally invested (and afraid). They're our babies.  

I suggest that you perhaps invest in a neutral therapist specifically for your daughter, one who is only on the side of your kiddo.  Let her know that you only want to do the right thing.

What is your custody schedule? I mean if you have full custody, does she have no visitation whatsoever? Is it supervised? Are there conditions to her visting?

You also have to be careful as the custodial parent, I had to explain myself at trial for every time that I did not allow visitation. Having the therapist involved to keep me grounded allowed the third party to be involved so it wasn't my sole decision. Long story short, of the handful of times I said "no" it was for valid reasons and it wasn't based on my trying to alienate his father from him.

We also have to participate in facilitating a relationship with the other parent, and the boundary has to be clear --- not just "you need therapy, until then you can't see your child".

[hurting300]

I'm denying a visit, because she ran away for over a year not allowing me nor my family to see the child. She would run again given the opportunity. I'm also denying visits because the court gave me the say so to schedule things based on her actions. I'm not angry now. Just have a little more common sense than I use to. When she can start paying child support and seek help she can see the baby as much as she wants. You have to know the case to fully understand what me and my family have been thru. Now with my other daughter, her mom gets her any time she sees fit. Plus I just give her back the child support money. But, she is smart and fair unlike ex number 2.

[DreamGirl]

You're right, we would have to know the circumstances to better understand. Im only guessing that it would have to be pretty bad for a mom to have absolutely no visitation, not even supervised.

I also know that there's a lot of parents here who have been on the other side of a parent who has determined that they'll decide whether or not they are allowed visitation. We can all agree that sometimes the court can be unfair in its decision and give the other parent too much power. Again, part of being a good full custody parent is the ability to facilitate a relationship with the other parent. Otherwise, you effectively are alienating your child which is not healthy for the child either.

Is it really in your daughters best interest to never see her mom again? Its a loaded question, I know.

For my son the answer was no, its not in his best interest. Having a limited, safe place with therapeutic intervention (for him) was. He accepts his dad and they have a very realistic relationship. He also has a huge piece missing... .and really struggles sometimes.

Its about balance, acceptance, and doing right by the child.

From where I'm standing, it still seems like you're still emotionally invested. You refer to her as the enemy. It might be affecting your decisions in this, which isn't probably what the courts had in mind when they appointed you the person trying to facilitate a relationship with your little girls mom.

[hurting300]

You're right, we would have to know the circumstances to better understand. Im only guessing that it would have to be pretty bad for a mom to have absolutely no visitation, not even supervised.

I also know that there's a lot of parents here who have been on the other side of a parent who has determined that they'll decide whether or not they are allowed visitation. We can all agree that sometimes the court can be unfair in its decision and give the other parent too much power. Again, part of being a good full custody parent is the ability to facilitate a relationship with the other parent. Otherwise, you effectively are alienating your child which is not healthy for the child either.

Is it really in your daughters best interest to never see her mom again? Its a loaded question, I know.

For my son the answer was no, its not in his best interest. Having a limited, safe place with therapeutic intervention (for him) was. He accepts his dad and they have a very realistic relationship. He also has a huge piece missing... .and really struggles sometimes.

Its about balance, acceptance, and doing right by the child.

From where I'm standing, it still seems like you're still emotionally invested. You refer to her as the enemy. It might be affecting your decisions in this, which isn't probably what the courts had in mind when they appointed you the person trying to facilitate a relationship with your little girls mom.

Oh I completely agree the mom should be involved with my child. And I completely agree with what you are saying fully. I sit here and I think to myself, should I let my daughter stay one night with her? What could possibly go wrong? My ex is one who has to win at all costs. She will do things to hurt you on propose. She is telling people she wants me dead. What did I do? Certainly nothing illegal to her. And honestly I know it's sad that i refer to her as the enemy. But, think about this... .What does your enemies want? For you to lose, hurt and suffer. She had every intention of never letting me see my daughter again. I spent years taking care of my ex and trying to build her up and she hates me for it. Things she says gets back to me. And I'm not for one minute going to put one ounce of trust there. I offered supervision visits. She said no I want to take her places. Seems kinda odd right... I would take anything to see my kid if I were her.