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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
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Author Topic: Trying to reconcile with BPD spouse  (Read 2117 times)
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« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2015, 12:17:08 PM »

While moving forward is NOT what I want, 

Hey... .no rush for a clear answer... .but... .in order to have any "chance" reconciling with a pwBPD... .in the current state that you are in... .we need to get you good and solid on what you want... .what you are willing to put time, energy, love, sweat and money into... .

It's not going to be easy... .and there is no guarantee.

There is no guarantee that your wife will actually sign divorce papers either.

It is common for pwBPD to use divorce as a "tool" or "tactic"... .at least it seems that way.

No judgement here... .on which way you choose... .and yes you can change your mind later... .but... .YOU need a clear answer about what you are going for... .

FF
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2015, 12:35:45 PM »

Hey... .no rush for a clear answer... .but... .in order to have any "chance" reconciling with a pwBPD... .in the current state that you are in... .we need to get you good and solid on what you want... .what you are willing to put time, energy, love, sweat and money into... .

Up until this separation, we might have been apart for two or three nights during the 2.5 years that we have been married. While I'm not saying that that is healthy or the way things should be, all I am trying to say is that I'm not okay with long separations like this because there is too much room for misunderstandings and worry to grow.

I am not okay with her just disappearing and shutting me out/not talking to me or opening up to others while she isn't talking to me. Again, this is something new and it has never happened until a week or two before our separation.

I am not okay with non-stop anger. She has had an occasional night where she would be angry, but during the first three weeks of our separation, she was angry virtually every time we talked... .for three entire weeks. This has never happened before the separation. I'm not okay with that.

I am not okay with affairs. Regardless of whether her inappropriate relationship was physical, emotional, or both, I can forgive that one time only.

I am not okay with her being unwilling to compromise to accommodate my wants and needs. She pressured me into doing IVF this summer even though she knew I felt like I needed to wait another six months. I should not have caved, but I did, and it became a major point of contention in our relationship.

I am not okay with doing this push/pull limbo indefinitely while we are separated. I can deal with a little hot and cold while we are sleeping in the same bed every night, but not while we have been separated for almost 7 weeks. I don't know how much longer I can put up with the push/pull honestly.

Part of me realizes that since she is in therapy and has been in therapy before, this might be the only MAJOR hiccup in our marriage. After a bunch of therapy, this sort of insanity could be forever behind us. I don't think that I can wait too terribly long though. There are a lot of things that are important to me that have gone on the back burner while I'm trying to pull this back together. I am getting ready to enter my senior year of electrical engineering school too and so I won't have much energy at all to devote towards this 5 weeks from now. (Long story about why I am still in school, but I am 25 now. She is 26.)

I don't mind cooking meals, doing laundry, and helping out more around the house. I don't mind taking care of bills and making sure that the house keeps going. I don't mind her needing to just shut herself up in her room and be alone. I don't mind her wanting me to spend a lot of time with her.

Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?

I don't think that her BPD is nearly as severe as the BPD of many others that I have read about. She is a hard worker and very accomplished. She did well in school and is excelling at her current job and is about to get her third promotion in less than a year.

I have this hope that we can hit therapy really hard and between that, my informed helpful support, and my patience, a few years from now, we will have a happy mostly normal life.
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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2015, 01:12:59 PM »

[

Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?

We're getting there.

What does "not ok" mean?  Will you divorce over that issue?  How many times can she do it before divorce? 

But... .basic question.

Your wife says she wants a divorce.

You seem to be waffling. (Am I correct)

FF
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2015, 01:31:57 PM »

We're getting there.

What does "not ok" mean?  Will you divorce over that issue?  How many times can she do it before divorce? 

But... .basic question.

Your wife says she wants a divorce.

You seem to be waffling. (Am I correct)

That is an answer I do not know. How many times should I put up with behavior that I do not like? How many times is too many?

She has only said the words, "I want a divorce" one time. One other time she has said that we are through and another she said yes after I asked her, ":)o you want a divorce?" All of this has only happened over the last 7 weeks during our separation. She has said that the only thing she has consistently been through all of this is really confused.

I probably am waffling. Last night we had a good normal time and kissed. We were supposed to meet again tonight, but she admitted today that she is scared. She said that she wants space. I asked her if she realized feeling scared and running away is part of the disorder. She said that she did but that she is making baby steps. We made plans for Sunday and to try and give her her space, I agreed to NC until Sunday morning. I made a point of telling her that I love her when I agreed to go NC.

I recognize that this is obviously push/pull. The last time we had a kiss like we did last night was before the separation almost 7 weeks ago. Now the fact that she wants distance for a few days makes it really obvious that I am hitting the push. The fact that we kissed last night (over the last 10 days she has been gradually making herself a little more vulnerable each time we meet) and that she recognizes that her fear and running away is part of the disorder gives me hope.

However, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the future. I am getting ready to hit an incredibly intense 8 months of education. I will have virtually no time to work on this a month from now. I may have some time on the weekends, but it won't be a lot and it will only be on the weekends.

I fear that if things haven't improved enough to where we can start living together again within the next month, it will ultimately mean the end of the marriage.
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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2015, 05:29:27 PM »

 

My advice to you... .stop counting the number of times she threatens divorce or "through".

Work on a consistent response... .

My wife has certainly threatened over 50 times... .most likely a lot more.

One they stop getting a reaction from doing it... .it lessens out.

FF
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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2015, 05:37:35 PM »

One they stop getting a reaction from doing it... .it lessens out.

Exactly! My husband and I did the back and forth push/pull thing for a while over the idea of divorce. The last time he did it, I didn't react and said rather of matter of factly, "Okay. Let's do this. What is it going to take to make it happen?" I said it like I was talking about the sky being blue. Very matter of fact. No reaction. When he tried the whole, "Oh, I can see you have been thinking about this for a while." I responded with the same level of steadiness, "Nope, not really. I am not going to play this game with you. I am taking you seriously and trying to figure out how to make it happen." I don't think he has threatened it since.
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2015, 06:06:44 AM »

Hi turbo.

you are doing some great work digging into to all of this.  as you can tell marriage is complicated, marriage under stress is more complicated, marriage under stress with a spouse suffering emotional dsyregulation is complication cubed.

I can see where the upcoming academic year would be looming large, that is a huge and daunting workload. 


However, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the future. I am getting ready to hit an incredibly intense 8 months of education. I will have virtually no time to work on this a month from now. I may have some time on the weekends, but it won't be a lot and it will only be on the weekends.

I fear that if things haven't improved enough to where we can start living together again within the next month, it will ultimately mean the end of the marriage.

This is a cut and paste from the link of the right hand side of the screen under what does it take to be in a relationship with a borderline

Excerpt
Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced.

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else

I want to focus on realistic expectations and practical reality for a minute.   Do you know why they picked the word borderline?  That word comes from the psychiatrists observation that people who suffer from this disorder are on the border of psychosis.   It is a serious mental illness.

Here is my reality.   My partner has graduated from therapy.   After nine years.   Including 2 years of DBT.  In that time she disassociated so badly that frankly she was psychotic for a couple days.   She is religious about meds.  Takes them faithfully.  And they have helped.  But years of meds and their side effects have played havoc with her kidneys.    We are careful about caffeine, alcohol and sweets.   Anything that may effect mood.   We plan on exercise and regular sleep.  No late nights.   We manage stress.  This year so far, she has dsyregulated three times, twice in February while we traveling and once in April. Each time she recovered in a day or so.  Oh and traveling is stressful for my partner so she is more likely to have some type of episode while we are away from home so we don't travel much.   I keep a chunk of my finances separate as my partner is impulsive with her spending.  If we go somewhere I drive because she is the most reckless driver you would ever hope to see.   She will likely be under some type of care and medication for the rest of her life, and while she doesn't require active therapy right now, the fault lines and the fragility in her personality are very clear to see if anyone knows where to look.   

We are considered a success story.  Since I have been coming here, consistently, things have gotten much better for us.  It has required work on both of our parts.   It has also required sacrifice on my part.   Some of my cherished dreams have been modified to accommodate what her illness could tolerate.   

I suspect that when your wife says she is confused she is being completely truthful.   My experience was my partner once hit a period of emotional dsyregulation that was very intense, I inadvertently did things that made it worse and it took about 6 months for her to return to baseline.  pwBPD have a very slow return to baseline.

Coming here and learning about pwBPD helps us.   We can't fix, cure or control this disorder.   We can do things that make the relationship better and more stable by not feeding into the chaos it sometimes creates.  And we can learn to not take it personally.   

There is a lot more to this disorder than a fear of abandonment.   It's not a binary subset of fear of abandonment=reassure=problem solved.  I don't mean that to sound harsh.   More to be truthful.

I have a very vivid memory of my partner slipping into a BPD rage and I don't know why.   I was engrossed in what ever I was doing and quite likely I was ignoring her.   I was on the sofa in the living room and she began to rage and couldn't get the brakes on.   I couldn't get out of the living room, she was between the sofa and the door.   She started to rage.   I ended up curled up in a fetal position on the sofa with my arms wrapped around my head while she screamed hysterically at me "you have to stop hurting me like this" at the top of her lungs.   I've no idea what she was referring to.  I still have nightmares about that one.

And before you say my wife is high functioning she would never do that,  my partner is considered high functioning also.

It's a serious mental illness. 

And to V of C's point earlier

Excerpt
I really wanted to pull this out and suggest that maybe this isn't such a good approach. It sounds a bit dismissive as though her fears are the result of the disorder rather than a result of the fact that she and the person that she is married to are having problems

I wouldn't want to be reminded that I have a disorder all the time.   I would find it dismissive and frankly more than a little annoying.   Also since it is a disorder that has significant issues around blame/shame/guilt raising the disorder can play into fueling the guilt.

my two cents.

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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2015, 08:09:12 AM »

   Some of my cherished dreams have been modified to accommodate what her illness could tolerate.   

Let me expand on this... .from my point of view.

having a pwBPD in a relationship will require you to prioritize.  I've set aside some dreams of mine as well. 

The dreams I have held onto... .I protect firmly with boundaries that I control... .

One thing that helped me was thinking about an issue... and asking myself... .am I willing to fight for that... .

If the answer is no... then usually best to stop putting any energy into that... .and redirect that energy somewhere more useful.

FF
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2015, 08:20:53 AM »

   Some of my cherished dreams have been modified to accommodate what her illness could tolerate.   

Let me expand on this... .from my point of view.

having a pwBPD in a relationship will require you to prioritize.  I've set aside some dreams of mine as well. 

The dreams I have held onto... .I protect firmly with boundaries that I control... .

One thing that helped me was thinking about an issue... and asking myself... .am I willing to fight for that... .

If the answer is no... then usually best to stop putting any energy into that... .and redirect that energy somewhere more useful.

FF

This is excellent advice.  I am working on this constantly.  I grew up where you "fought" for everything".  My FOO is still that way and it drives me nuts.
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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2015, 09:10:53 AM »

My advice to you... .stop counting the number of times she threatens divorce or "through".

Work on a consistent response... .

This is a good idea. The last time that she said she wanted a divorce, I moved all my stuff out that day and went back to stay with my parents. She has not threatened it in the 3-4 weeks since then. I think that that sort of goes along the lines of what VOC was saying too... .to take their words at face value and just say, "Okay, let's do this."

Not reacting has been very helpful here recently. Yesterday, I wanted to establish a rule about our separation. She reacted, got agitated, and didn't want to follow this rule. I stood my ground, told her I loved her, and told her what it would mean to me if that boundary was not respected. She said that this would be dangerous for her but that she would do it anyways and that I should not worry about her. Success! Boundary established! I'm sure it will continue taking work to maintain and really get it entrenched, but I feel like the worst part of establishing that boundary is over.

Quote from: babyducks


I want to focus on realistic expectations and practical reality for a minute.   Do you know why they picked the word borderline?  That word comes from the psychiatrists observation that people who suffer from this disorder are on the border of psychosis.   It is a serious mental illness.

You are absolutely right. I do not take anything you say as an offense, rather, I am very grateful for your insightful words.

I am not under some delusion that everything will be perfect, easy, and 100%  normal once she has been in some therapy for a while. I think that the reason why she has been as successful as she has in life is because she did 5+ years of therapy before we met. I know that it will take a while for her to come back down from cloud 9. My T said earlier this week as I was trying to get a rough idea about how long this would take, "It is going to take a long time. I can't tell you how long exactly, but it will take a long time." That has really been sinking in this week and it is something that I definitely did not fully understand and accept when I first started this thread.

Quote from: baby ducks


We are careful about caffeine, alcohol and sweets.   Anything that may effect mood.   We plan on exercise and regular sleep.  No late nights.   We manage stress.

We are both still young and like to do things that young people do. Is alcohol always a bad idea? What about certain plants that are legal in some states? I feel like alcohol has often been a factor when we have had some of our most fantastic times together.

I have always been a believer in simplifying life, exercising, and getting plenty of sleep. Those three things will help anybody no matter what their health is like.

Quote from: baby ducks


Some of my cherished dreams have been modified to accommodate what her illness could tolerate.  

How do you know where to draw the line with this? For example, I have ridden motorcycles for 11 years now. When we met, I had an extremely fast sportbike a.k.a. crotch rocket. Since we have gotten closer, she has said that she is scared about me getting another sportbike. (I have a streetbike right now, but it isn't anything like the one I used to have.)

Do I sacrifice that to help reduce her worry about me abandoning her by dying? Or do I just try to help her cope with the worry that that produces? I think that I could just go back to dirtbikes (that is how I started) and be satisfied, but I am not sure if that is the right thing to do.

Quote from: baby ducks


There is a lot more to this disorder than a fear of abandonment.   It's not a binary subset of fear of abandonment=reassure=problem solved.  I don't mean that to sound harsh.   More to be truthful.

You are correct. It is not harsh. Engineering school is all about quantifiable data. I often look at my marriage as a math problem where things can be counted and judgements can be passed based on that quantifiable data. Recognizing shades of grey with the disorder are not something that I am particularly good at, and I do need to work on trying to remember that so that I can see all of the shades of grey.

Quote from: baby ducks


And before you say my wife is high functioning she would never do that,  my partner is considered high functioning also.

She did rage at me publicly one time outside of her office. She wasn't screaming at the top of her lungs, but she was angry and did not have control over it. It won't give me nightmares, but it will definitely be something I'll never completely forget.

I guess part of the reason why I have as much hope as I do is because for ~20 months before this summer and her serious dysregulation started, she really took care of pretty much everything. She went grocery shopping, she did the laundry, she made the meals, she kept the apartment clean, and she took care of me. For those ~20 months, I was in engineering school full time and working full time. I rarely slept more than 5 hours/night and there were plenty of weeks where I would only get 2-3 hours/night. Through all of that, she really did take care of me physically and emotionally. I still helped out, but she definitely contributed a lot.

I recognize now that her symptoms were slowly starting to creep up on her as our lives continued to be crazy busy like that, but I still hope that we can get back to a point where she was contributing a lot. Maybe this is just a fantasy?

Quote from: baby ducks


I wouldn't want to be reminded that I have a disorder all the time.   I would find it dismissive and frankly more than a little annoying.   Also since it is a disorder that has significant issues around blame/shame/guilt raising the disorder can play into fueling the guilt.

That is a valid point. One side of me feels like recognizing and pointing out the disorder gives us a common enemy and helps her to realize that I still love her and understand what she is going through. I have consistently read that recognizing the disorder and knowing that it isn't right is one of the most important steps to recovery. So, I have attempted to recognize and point it out when she is doing some things that are CLEARLY BPD. She has not responded negatively to those and I feel like it has helped her... .but then again maybe it is hurting her a little more each time that I mention it.

Thoughts?

Thank you all for all of your replies. They have helped me more than you can ever know.
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« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2015, 09:33:17 AM »

This is a good idea. The last time that she said she wanted a divorce, I moved all my stuff out that day and went back to stay with my parents. She has not threatened it in the 3-4 weeks since then. I think that that sort of goes along the lines of what VOC was saying too... .to take their words at face value and just say, "Okay, let's do this."

In the future... .if she wants to alter the relationship... .let her take the action step as well.

So... .she wants divorce... .let her pack and move out.  Otherwise... .her words... .create your actions... .and can be very controlling.

Best if her words control her actions... .and your words... .control your actions.

FF
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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2015, 10:00:37 AM »

Quote from: baby ducks


We are careful about caffeine, alcohol and sweets.   Anything that may effect mood.   We plan on exercise and regular sleep.  No late nights.   We manage stress.

We are both still young and like to do things that young people do. Is alcohol always a bad idea? What about certain plants that are legal in some states? I feel like alcohol has often been a factor when we have had some of our most fantastic times together.

I wanted to comment on this! I think it is great that baby ducks and partner are able to do those things together. I would like to caution that doing those things with another person is very dependent on what the other person will or won't accept.

I am curious what is meant by "we manage stress". I am not trying to nitpick. I am curious how all of this works out. It is not my job to manage my husband's stress. That is his job. I can help him out from time to time. Anything beyond that is too much.

What you and your partner choose to do should be up to the two of you individually. If the two of you can have alcohol and have fun without added drama, then go for it. The key is to pay attention to your unique situation. Something like no late nights would drive me crazy as I find night time very peaceful. Sitting on my porch in the middle of the night is very therapeutic for me. Having somebody try to push no late nights on me would irritate the snot out of me. Again, I am not trying to pick on baby ducks. I am trying to provide more information to help you think about your unique situation.

Excerpt
How do you know where to draw the line with this? For example, I have ridden motorcycles for 11 years now. When we met, I had an extremely fast sportbike a.k.a. crotch rocket. Since we have gotten closer, she has said that she is scared about me getting another sportbike. (I have a streetbike right now, but it isn't anything like the one I used to have.)

In my opinion, I don't think you should have to change who you are to accommodate your partner. Riding motorcycles is part of who you are. You shouldn't have to stop it because of her fears. Having said that, is there anything that you could do to help her not be so afraid? For example, have you taken any safety classes? Could you put off getting another sportbike until things are a little more settled between the two of you.

Excerpt
Do I sacrifice that to help reduce her worry about me abandoning her by dying? Or do I just try to help her cope with the worry that that produces? I think that I could just go back to dirtbikes (that is how I started) and be satisfied, but I am not sure if that is the right thing to do.

Don't give up the things that you love! Keep being you!

Excerpt
That is a valid point. One side of me feels like recognizing and pointing out the disorder gives us a common enemy and helps her to realize that I still love her and understand what she is going through. I have consistently read that recognizing the disorder and knowing that it isn't right is one of the most important steps to recovery. So, I have attempted to recognize and point it out when she is doing some things that are CLEARLY BPD. She has not responded negatively to those and I feel like it has helped her... .but then again maybe it is hurting her a little more each time that I mention it.

I am not completely sure how to articulate what I am thinking about this part. BPD is part of who she is. Having it as a common enemy could easily be seen as HER being a common enemy.

One thing about about having any kind of illness or disorder is that it can be very invalidating to have somebody claim to understand it when they have no clue or no concept of what is really going on. I am thinking of some of the more recent conversations that I have had with my husband about his self identified sex addiction. I used to try to understand it. I used to identify him as a sex addict and I did all sorts of research about it. I have gotten to a point where I don't even try to understand the SA stuff. I tell him, "I don't understand this. That is okay. I don't need to understand it in order to love you. I can see your struggles and I can stand by you through it."

I think I had that epiphany when I was trying to talk to my husband about some of my feelings one time and he did the whole, "I understand". It made me hopping mad because he doesn't understand where I am coming from and to say he does is complete BS.

The reason that we will never understand each others struggles is that we don't live in each other's heads. The only people that truly understand my struggles are those that have lived similar ones. That is why this forum is so wonderful. There are people that understand because they have experienced the same things. Some these things are beyond explanation. How many of us have tried to explain our situations to others only to be looked at like WE are the crazy ones.

I wonder if it matters whether or not something is clearly BPD. Instead of focusing on whether or not something is clearly BPD or not, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to focus on "Can I live with this?" There are some things that my husband does that are not what I would consider normal and are actually part of his charm. Those behaviors are probably BPD or related to something else. I am not going to say anything about it because I can live with it.
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2015, 12:03:25 PM »

In the future... .if she wants to alter the relationship... .let her take the action step as well.

So... .she wants divorce... .let her pack and move out.  Otherwise... .her words... .create your actions... .and can be very controlling.

Best if her words control her actions... .and your words... .control your actions.

FF

So, if the separation is going to end, I should let her say that she wants to live together again and not say that I want to live together until she says it?

Quote from: vortex of confusion


What you and your partner choose to do should be up to the two of you individually.

That makes sense. There really isn't a one size fits all kind of thing with this disorder.

Quote from: vortex of confusion


I wonder if it matters whether or not something is clearly BPD. Instead of focusing on whether or not something is clearly BPD or not, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to focus on "Can I live with this?" There are some things that my husband does that are not what I would consider normal and are actually part of his charm.

This makes sense too. I think that this is a much better way of looking at it. The problem with BPD is the unpleasant symptoms that make relationships difficult. Perhaps I have been too focused on identifying all of the symptoms of BPD and trying to think about what an absence of all symptoms would look like, while forgetting that there can be pleasant symptoms to BPD.

Up until right before our separation, she would always give me the most wonderful hugs whenever we would meet each other again at the end of the day regardless of where we were. I really enjoyed that and while her craving for that may be part of BPD, it is not something that I would want her to stop.

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babyducks
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2015, 12:42:47 PM »

Hi Vortex

you are right,  these are all uniquely personal decisions based on our own individual situations.

For us, we identified stress as something we wanted to be mindful of.   She brought it to me as an issue and I  thought about it and agreed.  One of the ways we manage stress is to take long walks together.   I don't manage her and she doesn't manage me.   How this works out is we schedule time outs to decompress and we both enjoy it.

As to late nights,  I was thinking more along the lines of 3 nights in a row of up to 3AM in the middle of some head banging rock and roll.   I'm getting older,  that doesn't work for me.

It's not a one size fits all and I wasn't trying to imply that.   I was trying to illustrate my reality and how the disorder impacts my daily living.   Your milage may vary.

Does that make more sense?
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What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lives within us.
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« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2015, 02:23:42 PM »

Hi

Turbo wrote

and she pulled away trembling because of how scared and guilty she felt. Knowing how high of a libido she has always had, it appears to me that she is sincere. If she wanted to just suck me back in, she would not have to try very hard... .but she doesn't, which makes me think that she is sincere.

------Can you clarify? "She doesn't" do what?  Do you mean she doesn't suck you right back in?  And since she doesn't do that, she is sincere about feeling scared and guilty?

   I can see how a pwBPD would hold back out of fear and guilt, not pursuing the reconciliation as strongly as she wants it, due to feeling scared.  Scared that you will abandon her in the future if you reconcile.

Shatra
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