Help me sort out the confusion

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have been thinking about starting a thread for a while but have no idea how to phrase it or discuss it. I am going to list some random things that have been on my mind. . .

1. My house is so much more peaceful these days. My husband is trying really hard. Even the kids have noticed that dad is more goofy and more fun than he has been in years. I see his progress yet feel like it still isn't enough. I am not sure the source of these feelings. I am trying to be patient.

2. I have been experiencing intense feelings of loneliness. Since I was reported to CPS, I have been hesitant to talk to anybody about anything serious. I am most especially afraid to mention any of my negative feelings to my husband. One, I don't want to do anything to rock the boat. Two, I don't want to derail his healing and his recovery. He is doing really well. At the same time, I want to jump up and down and scream, "What about me? What about my healing? What about my recovery? What about the fact that I have been with a man for 17 years that doesn't seem to get it?" I don't say those things and I don't do anything other than put on a smile and keep going.

I am really confused because the thing that I want more than anything is collapse in a crying ball of goo and just have somebody hold me. I have told my husband this and he has made some effort to be more present. The confusing part for me is that when my husband has attempted to be there for me, I can't seem to relax enough to let go. I find myself tensing up and clamming up. The other day, he and I were having a conversation and it found its way back to how great he is doing. I just want to scream at him and tell him to shut the eff up about how great he is doing. Yes, he is doing great and wonderful and I don't want to derail that.

How do I tell him that I am NOT doing great? In all honesty, I don't see any good coming from telling him. When I have tried to broach the subject before, he will attempt to validate by saying stuff like, "I know how much I have hurt you." Or stuff like, "You have every right to be upset." I am mad at myself because I don't know what it will take for me to be able to communicate deep and important stuff to him. We can talk about the bills and the kids and his games and his recovery all day long and it is all well and good.

Looking for advice, questions, or anything else that might help me see through the confusion.

[vortex of confusion]

I have been thinking about starting a thread for a while but have no idea how to phrase it or discuss it. I am going to list some random things that have been on my mind. . .

1. My house is so much more peaceful these days. My husband is trying really hard. Even the kids have noticed that dad is more goofy and more fun than he has been in years. I see his progress yet feel like it still isn't enough. I am not sure the source of these feelings. I am trying to be patient.

2. I have been experiencing intense feelings of loneliness. Since I was reported to CPS, I have been hesitant to talk to anybody about anything serious. I am most especially afraid to mention any of my negative feelings to my husband. One, I don't want to do anything to rock the boat. Two, I don't want to derail his healing and his recovery. He is doing really well. At the same time, I want to jump up and down and scream, "What about me? What about my healing? What about my recovery? What about the fact that I have been with a man for 17 years that doesn't seem to get it?" I don't say those things and I don't do anything other than put on a smile and keep going.

I am really confused because the thing that I want more than anything is collapse in a crying ball of goo and just have somebody hold me. I have told my husband this and he has made some effort to be more present. The confusing part for me is that when my husband has attempted to be there for me, I can't seem to relax enough to let go. I find myself tensing up and clamming up. The other day, he and I were having a conversation and it found its way back to how great he is doing. I just want to scream at him and tell him to shut the eff up about how great he is doing. Yes, he is doing great and wonderful and I don't want to derail that.

How do I tell him that I am NOT doing great? In all honesty, I don't see any good coming from telling him. When I have tried to broach the subject before, he will attempt to validate by saying stuff like, "I know how much I have hurt you." Or stuff like, "You have every right to be upset." I am mad at myself because I don't know what it will take for me to be able to communicate deep and important stuff to him. We can talk about the bills and the kids and his games and his recovery all day long and it is all well and good.

Looking for advice, questions, or anything else that might help me see through the confusion.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GaGrl]

Could it be the difficulty of achieving intimacy when you don't fully trust that it will or can last? Are you holding something in reserve as a safety buffer?

[vortex of confusion]

Could it be the difficulty of achieving intimacy when you don't fully trust that it will or can last?

That is a good question. I don't trust that it will or can last. In one of our recent conversations about him doing so well, he told me that he thinks that I could do whatever I want and it wouldn't interfere with his recovery. The tone and implication was that I could find somebody else and he would be okay with it.

I have 17 years worth of history here. Why should I trust that it will last? How can I achieve intimacy with somebody that doesn't seem to get me at all? Is that my fault or his? I have other friends that I can share with and be vulnerable with. I have no problems sharing with others. Heck, I probably share too much with some people.

Are you holding something in reserve as a safety buffer?

I feel like I have to hold a lot in reserve. I have to maintain a certain level of strength at all times. I am not going to let the kids see me fall apart like I want to fall apart. Not only that, but my husband does not do well when I fall apart. It is like he mirrors me at times. When CPS showed up, he was strong and was cool as a cucumber. So was I. The stronger and more put together I am, the stronger and more put together he is. I am pretty sure that if I allowed myself to break down with him, he would fall apart and I would end up comforting him because my break down would trigger him to have an even bigger break down because, "this is all his fault. I wouldn't be having these feelings if he hadn't been such a jerk, blah, blah, blah."

So, yeah, I am keeping a lot in reserve. Nothing good will come of me breaking down or sharing my negative feelings with him. I been down that road before and it doesn't work.

[formflier]

I am really confused because the thing that I want more than anything is collapse in a crying ball of goo and just have somebody hold me.

you have been doing way more than your fair share... .for 17 years.  That takes a toll... .

You are seeing changes... .that is good.

What if they aren't enough?

What is enough?

I've had all these same thoughts... so... .if you haven't... they will most likely come at some point.

Anyway... .peace is a change... .it is nice... but it's a bit of an unknown... .

Hang in there... .

FF

[waverider]

Is it like you have been trying so hard to turn the lights on, and now you have you can see the walls are painted bright purple. Whilst it is good to at last see the walls, you can't imagine yourself living in a house with bright purple walls. You really want to paint them a sunny yellow but you know it will upset your H who only seems to like purple

Subconsciously you feel guilty about not being able to accept that?

Understanding does not always lead to acceptance.

Remember when you came here you came from a view of just holding fort until an appropriate time to leave. So you are not living your original agenda, that makes acceptance even harder.

[Daniell85]

You are like Atlas, with the whole of your world sitting on your shoulders. It's really hard to be the caretaker of so many people, very exhausting. Your psyche is asking for some sustenance and support back from your partner,

I am struggling, as you saw already   with trying to accept some reality that I don't want to accept. Examining ultimately the same thing as you are: am I willing to partner with someone who is taking up a primary space in my life, but is appearing to be some kind of black hole. Do I want that? Can I do the work of 2 people while I am being undermined and hurt all the time?

That is my perspective. You seem to have a similar one.

There is a question here: Can it get better? Is it likely to get better?

[formflier]

There is a question here: Can it get better? Is it likely to get better?

And... will better be enough?

FF

[ColdEthyl]

"been fighting so long it's like gravity is gone and i'm just floating" -Drive By Truckers

I know that feeling, VoC. It's similar to how I'm feeling about being sexually intimate with my husband. It's become so weird... .so warped that we don't even know how to anymore. I am guarded, I assume he's not as excited about the medication as he says, and I am steeling myself for the disappointment.

Most of us who end up in a r/s with a pw/BPD seem to be survivors to me. We have survived under the lesson that never expect anything from anyone because they will let us down. We must be the doers... .the worker bees, the caregivers. We develop a sense of always waiting for the 'other shoe to drop', even we can't see a shoe anywhere in our sights.

Because of that, even if everything is going well now, you suspect it won't in the future. Your needs will not be met. Does that mean that it's true? Not necessarily, but we fill the shelves with perseveres and canned goods... .just in case.

[vortex of confusion]

you have been doing way more than your fair share... .for 17 years.  That takes a toll... .

You are seeing changes... .that is good.

What if they aren't enough?

What is enough?

I've had all these same thoughts... so... .if you haven't... they will most likely come at some point.

Anyway... .peace is a change... .it is nice... but it's a bit of an unknown... .

Thanks FF!

I have had the questions about "What is enough" for a while now! I have no clue what 'enough' looks like. All I know is that it hasn't been achieved yet. I am thinking that 'enough' is when I feel connected to my husband again.

I have no idea what it will take to feel connected to him.

The peace is wonderful. My husband has become a very obedient little house boy. I know how that sounds. I hate using that description but that is as close to accurate as I can find. When I set boundaries and insist on certain things, he falls right in line and does what he is asked without too much of a fuss. He will wait on me and the kids without fail. I get back rubs lately. From an outside perspective, I have nothing to complain about.

[vortex of confusion]

Is it like you have been trying so hard to turn the lights on, and now you have you can see the walls are painted bright purple. Whilst it is good to at last see the walls, you can't imagine yourself living in a house with bright purple walls. You really want to paint them a sunny yellow but you know it will upset your H who only seems to like purple

Subconsciously you feel guilty about not being able to accept that?

Understanding does not always lead to acceptance.

Remember when you came here you came from a view of just holding fort until an appropriate time to leave. So you are not living your original agenda, that makes acceptance even harder.

Thanks waverider!

Hmmm, perhaps I do feel guilty about not being able to accept things better. I know that I struggle with accepting things as they are. I understand them and I can roll with them without a problem.

I still have a rough idea for a 5 year plan. In 5 years, my oldest will be 19 and the youngest will be 11 and that will make it a lot easier to figure things out logistically. I have talked to the oldest a little about the idea of me and her dad separating. That creates extreme anxiety for her. Really, all of the kids have expressed that they want dad around all of the time. Even moreso now because he is being a lot more fun and goofy and like he used to be when the oldest two were younger.

[vortex of confusion]

There is a question here: Can it get better? Is it likely to get better?

The easier answer to this is "Yes, it will get better." I am not going to accept anything less than better. I have more tools now than I have ever had. I feel like I am more self aware than I have been in a long time. And, I am focusing on me more than I ever have.

I see two separate things that I am wrestling with:

Logic: Logically, things are great and wonderful. Things continue to get better and better. I am getting everything that I have been saying that I want. He is getting along better with the kids. He is helping around the house without being a dork about it. He isn't being nearly as petulant. He was recently asked to join a book club to discuss books about recovery. On paper, I would say that things are looking pretty great. Logically, I know that staying with him is the logical and sensible thing to do. Staying is what is best for the kids. I have heavily considered all of the options and staying is the one that is most logical.

Heart: I am so not feeling this. I don't have those warm fuzzy feelings where I find myself thinking how much I love him. No, I love him as the father of my children. I am not in love with him. We have sex periodically. I find it unsatisfying because I am worried about whether or not his equipment will stop working. If it shows signs of not working, I know that I can bring up other guys and get it going again. Sometimes, I bring it up and sometimes I don't. I don't want my husband to be overly jealous or overly possessive but it sure as heck would be nice if there was a little bit of "This is my wife and I don't want to share." I have offhandedly made jokes about him being the perfect cuckold. He seem to like the idea of being a kept man. That is so NOT what I want in a life partner. I want an actual partner.

[vortex of confusion]

I know that feeling, VoC. It's similar to how I'm feeling about being sexually intimate with my husband. It's become so weird... .so warped that we don't even know how to anymore. I am guarded, I assume he's not as excited about the medication as he says, and I am steeling myself for the disappointment.

I know how to be sexual with my husband. It lacks intimacy and it requires me to be in the driver's seat. I am tired of driving and doing all of the gear shifting. Like you say, it is weird and I do tend to remain guarded.

Most of us who end up in a r/s with a pw/BPD seem to be survivors to me. We have survived under the lesson that never expect anything from anyone because they will let us down. We must be the doers... .the worker bees, the caregivers. We develop a sense of always waiting for the 'other shoe to drop', even we can't see a shoe anywhere in our sights.

Hmmm. . .I don't know that this applies to me fully. I knew that I could count on certain people in certain situations. Growing up, I could count on people if there was a crisis. Even now, if I really need something, my parents will step up and help me. Our riding mower is broken. Every couple of weeks, my dad loads his mower up on the trailer and brings it over and drops it off for us to use. When we are done with it, he comes and picks it up. If my car were to break down, all I would have to do is make a phone call and my dad or brother would take care of it for me. Last year, I wanted to go to a concert the worst way in the world. My older sister got tickets and took me and my oldest daughter to the concert.

Yes, I am a worker bee and a caregiver. I have been taking care of others most of my life. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. However, the over attitude seemed to be one of "You work hard so you can play hard." I knew that there were be a respite and somebody else would step into the care taking roll and let me rest. And there was also an element of helping each other out whenever possible. That is IF you were not the one that was currently on the black list. If you were on the black list, then you couldn't really directly depend on anyone. Those not on the black list would still sneak around and help to a degree though.

I think my FOO stuff adds to the confusion. Even though I come from a family of crazy, I knew what I could and couldn't rely on people for at any given time. I was the golden child where I feel like I was hated and protected and loved all at the same time.

[Grey Kitty]

Short version: You aren't satisfied with what you have in your relationship with your husband, even though it is a lot better than what it was.

Sub-issue: You don't feel safe sharing these feelings with your husband.

I think that this second thing is dead on--it *ISN'T* safe to share this with your husband based on his prior behavior. He's doing a lot better, which means he may not have a full-on meltdown... .but he's not going to handle this well. (More radical acceptance of who he is here... .)

General dissatisfaction with a relationship probably isn't something you should share with a relationship partner, no matter how emotionally healthy they are. I don't see how it could improve any relationship!

So find a different audience. (Posting here is a good alternative! )

Your comment that he takes to boundaries well, and is making better contributions to your wellbeing and your kids well being is encouraging... .you can offer him more specific suggestions/requests on how to do better... .more baby steps... .

... .and as for the big problem... .you don't have the kind of emotional intimacy with him that you want in a relationship. That's going to take a long time and a lot of work... .both on your part and his part to get there. Since you are committed to staying with him and raising your kids with him for a while, work on being the best you can, and giving him room to be the best he can during that time.

[vortex of confusion]

Short version: You aren't satisfied with what you have in your relationship with your husband, even though it is a lot better than what it was.

Yep, that sums it up in a nutshell.

I think that this second thing is dead on--it *ISN'T* safe to share this with your husband based on his prior behavior. He's doing a lot better, which means he may not have a full-on meltdown... .but he's not going to handle this well. (More radical acceptance of who he is here... .)

Even if he doesn't have a melt down, it goes in one ear and out the other. I might as well be talking to a wall at times. He is trying to listen and connect but lacks the skill. I know where it comes from and I am trying to accept that.

General dissatisfaction with a relationship probably isn't something you should share with a relationship partner, no matter how emotionally healthy they are. I don't see how it could improve any relationship!

Your comment that he takes to boundaries well, and is making better contributions to your wellbeing and your kids well being is encouraging... .you can offer him more specific suggestions/requests on how to do better... .more baby steps... .

My first thought when I read this was, "It is a shame that I can't tell him to just be somebody else." I know, that is a bad thought to have. I will continue to try to give him specific suggestions and requests. He is doing a lot better with that than he used to do so that is a big plus.

... .and as for the big problem... .you don't have the kind of emotional intimacy with him that you want in a relationship. That's going to take a long time and a lot of work... .both on your part and his part to get there. Since you are committed to staying with him and raising your kids with him for a while, work on being the best you can, and giving him room to be the best he can during that time.

Does anybody reading this have any specific suggestions on how to go about accomplishing that? In all honesty, I am not very hopeful about achieving any sort of emotional intimacy with him. I am trying to accept that this is likely as good as it is going to get in the intimacy department. We try to spend time sitting on the porch together and talking. I have tried to sleep in the same bed with him but I just can't sleep so I end up going back to the couch. He still shows no interest in going on a date with me. I know it seems silly but I would like to go on a simple date where we have dinner, go to the mall, or do something else that is mundane. I am not talking about candle light and flowers here. I just want something small to help us at least try to rekindle something. I wonder if it is even possible at this point. I think that adds to my confusion. I want to keep trying yet feel like some of my efforts are futile.

[Sunfl0wer]

I remember feeling this way.  I remember feeling so frustrated that my partner was doing well, however, it was only about 10% of what I considered a satisfactory change.

Part of me felt angry and wondered if he was strong enough to hear me have feelings. (He was not).

For me, it felt like i had been holding all this feeling in me for so long... .suppressed... .and had a desire to share this side with him... .for so long.

It also felt validating... .I felt validated with him changing... .that he needed to change... .it confirmed my thinking all along.  I got excited that maybe he could see the rest he also needed to change.  I felt hopeful he could handle some of my emotion.

Then I went to MC(for a solo)... .

He asked how I was feeling.

I burst open... .  I cried out how I'm not allowed to have feelings.  Here he is, "everything great," yet I cannot feel angry, sad, frustrated... .nothing.  Me, feeling in my own home, is not allowed! I can barely take it!

MC simply responded: That is why I am asking how you feel.

I was dumbfounded.  He understood. ( He was letting me know that he was acting to substitute what BF could not give.)

The sad thing was... .  MC understanding, and validating this... .was a sad RA for me.

I don't know if i was better off being frustrated with trying and hoping for a man who could hear me.  Or was I better off in my state of RA that I would forever need MC (or someone else) to be truly seen and heard as a person with a range of feelings.

I think my frustration was a struggle of natural hope vs RA.

... .and me wanting hope to win out.

[123Phoebe]

I just want something small to help us at least try to rekindle something. I wonder if it is even possible at this point. I think that adds to my confusion. I want to keep trying yet feel like some of my efforts are futile.

Hi Vortex,

Anything is possible!   I think the key word here is effort.  If you're trying, Stop trying to put effort into gaining emotional intimacy.  Who you are, at your core, I hate to use this word-- "should" exude from you, effortlessly.  Does that make sense? 

First of all, are you attracted to your husband?  Is there still a spark there?  Have you suggested going out to dinner?  If you have and he's declined, would he watch the kids while you take yourself out for dinner?  Dress up, go for it!  If you want it, there are creative ways of getting your needs met that aren't upfront and confrontational ~or~ passive.  Sometimes we have to think outside the box.

Live the life you want to live!  That was totally outside the box for me, as I was living for other people.

[formflier]

 

Does he refuse to go on a date?

Or just not seem interested?

Even if not interested... .will he go with you if you push it?

So... now we are talking about me... .I tend to think I'm pretty typical in the guy department.  There are times when I'm ambivalent about things... .but if I go ahead and do it... .I usually can figure out how to have a good time.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around him saying he wants to do better... actually doing somewhat better around house... .sitting and talking on porch... .all that.

And then... .not having a clue that he needs to woo (my word) you.  

My guess is that you want to know that he wants to chase you... .because he is chasing you... .that you are worth chasing... .

This is where I get off the rails a bit about what skills he is lacking... .because you would think that someone could tell him "dude... .ask your wife to go to dinner... .then taker her to a movie that SHE (not you) wants to see... .act like you like it... .go home a reap rewards of your efforts... "

Any idea where the disconnect is with him on that?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

... .and as for the big problem... .you don't have the kind of emotional intimacy with him that you want in a relationship. That's going to take a long time and a lot of work... .both on your part and his part to get there. Since you are committed to staying with him and raising your kids with him for a while, work on being the best you can, and giving him room to be the best he can during that time.

Does anybody reading this have any specific suggestions on how to go about accomplishing that? In all honesty, I am not very hopeful about achieving any sort of emotional intimacy with him. I am trying to accept that this is likely as good as it is going to get in the intimacy department. We try to spend time sitting on the porch together and talking. I have tried to sleep in the same bed with him but I just can't sleep so I end up going back to the couch. He still shows no interest in going on a date with me. I know it seems silly but I would like to go on a simple date where we have dinner, go to the mall, or do something else that is mundane. I am not talking about candle light and flowers here. I just want something small to help us at least try to rekindle something. I wonder if it is even possible at this point. I think that adds to my confusion. I want to keep trying yet feel like some of my efforts are futile.

I can take this one in a couple different directions. One is on intimacy and sharing/vulnerability... .something I recall from a Brene Brown video... .people have to EARN the right to get that kind of vulnerability from you. And given his history, it is going to take a lot from your H to get there.

The other is it sounds like you don't quite know what you want from your H. ":)oing something small" is a pretty low bar. "Rekindle something" is a pretty big result, not so likely to be achieved by barely getting over a such a low bar.

[vortex of confusion]

For me, it felt like i had been holding all this feeling in me for so long... .suppressed... .and had a desire to share this side with him... .for so long.

I am at a point where my desire to have him hear me is dwindling. That desire or hope seems futile. It has been 17 years. Wanting, expecting, hoping for something different falls into the realm of magical thinking. Yes, he is changing and making a lot of effort. That does not mean that he is going to acquire these skills. I can find outlets for my feelings that do not include him.

It also felt validating... .I felt validated with him changing... .that he needed to change... .it confirmed my thinking all along.  I got excited that maybe he could see the rest he also needed to change.  I felt hopeful he could handle some of my emotion.

Hmmm. . .him changing doesn't really feel validating to me. In some ways, I feel guilty about it. I feel guilty because I feel like some of the changes are a result of me becoming more like his mother.   He takes to structure and being told what to do so well it is sickening.

I don't know if i was better off being frustrated with trying and hoping for a man who could hear me.  Or was I better off in my state of RA that I would forever need MC (or someone else) to be truly seen and heard as a person with a range of feelings.

I think that my husband lacks the ability to hear me. I have written all sorts of stuff over the years that I have shared with my husband in an attempt to help him understand me, hear me, see me, something. I am much better at communicating in writing so I thought I could write blog posts that were more general in nature and share them with him. One time several years ago, I wrote something about micro messages in hopes of helping him see how the little things that he says and does can be invalidating. Instead of hearing what I was trying to say, he turned it around on me and said, "Well, the fact that you are sharing that with me and trying to talk to me about it is a micro message that says you don't like me." (Or some such crap like that. I don't remember specifically as it was several years ago." I can see why he took offense at it. Who wants to be told stuff like that? I sure as heck don't.

I think my frustration was a struggle of natural hope vs RA.

... .and me wanting hope to win out.

Hope isn't going to win in my case. All I can do is work towards RA and go from there.

[waverider]

Part of dealing with this is personal growth.

Personal growth carries the risk of out growing your environment.

Even though you are both growing you are growing faster.

The gap widens and you sense there is more to life, and only so much time to experience it.

Will it stay this way or will your perspective change? Who knows, your outlook has changed so much in the last year, there is still plenty of changes to come.

[vortex of confusion]

Anything is possible!   I think the key word here is effort.  If you're trying, Stop trying to put effort into gaining emotional intimacy.  Who you are, at your core, I hate to use this word-- "should" exude from you, effortlessly.  Does that make sense? 

I think I probably have that down pretty well. I'll have to ask a few of my friends if who I am exudes from me. I think it does.  

First of all, are you attracted to your husband?  Is there still a spark there?  Have you suggested going out to dinner?  If you have and he's declined, would he watch the kids while you take yourself out for dinner?  Dress up, go for it!  If you want it, there are creative ways of getting your needs met that aren't upfront and confrontational ~or~ passive.  Sometimes we have to think outside the box.

Um, the attraction comes and goes. It is more often gone than not. Spark? Nope, not really. The spark plugs are fouled up at the moment.

I have suggested that we go out to dinner. Babysitting is usually the issue. One night, I suggested a stay at home date where I let the kids get off schedule so they would be asleep at a time where he and I would be awake together so we could eat and watch some TV together. He brought home take out, we ate, and then he went to sleep. That was probably six months ago or so. I am really good at finding alternatives to things. Frankly, I am tired of trying to find alternatives to help us reconnect.

I think there is a difference between me wanting to get out and do stuff and wanting to see if I can find a way to reconnect with him. The getting out and doing stuff is something that I can do on my own or with the kids. Frankly, I enjoy going out by myself or with the kids more than I enjoy going out with him. I know, how can I want to reconnect with somebody that I don't enjoy spending time with? I keep asking myself that same question and don't have an answer.

I took my oldest daughter out for her birthday. I try to take the kids out individually at times. I enjoy the heck out of hanging out with my kids. They are a riot and they totally get me.

[vortex of confusion]

Does he refuse to go on a date?

Or just not seem interested?

Even if not interested... .will he go with you if you push it?

I think it is a little of both. He doesn't out right refuse. It is more of a situation where it seems like there are excuses as to why it doesn't happen. Even if it isn't a "let's leave the house" kind of date, it seems like there is no real interest. The last time we had a "date" was at Easter time when we went Easter shopping for the kids.

And then... .not having a clue that he needs to woo (my word) you.  

My guess is that you want to know that he wants to chase you... .because he is chasing you... .that you are worth chasing... .

Yep, it sure would be nice to be chased a bit. I so don't feel like he thinks I am worth chasing. He is so friggin' caught up in his recovery that I feel like the only thing he is chasing is his own tail and days of sobriety.

This is where I get off the rails a bit about what skills he is lacking... .because you would think that someone could tell him "dude... .ask your wife to go to dinner... .then taker her to a movie that SHE (not you) wants to see... .act like you like it... .go home a reap rewards of your efforts... "

Any idea where the disconnect is with him on that?

I have no friggin' clue where the disconnect is. I try really hard to reward him for his efforts. At Christmas time, he bought me a cheap Santa Claus sitting in an outhouse for my village. He got laid for it. I know that sounds terrible but I try to reward him for his efforts when he actually does something that shows he thought of me.

I can't remember the last time he and I went to a movie together. I think it was back in grad school 15 or so years ago. Maybe I have made it too easy for him. I don't want or need a lot. I am really low maintenance.

[vortex of confusion]

I can take this one in a couple different directions. One is on intimacy and sharing/vulnerability... .something I recall from a Brene Brown video... .people have to EARN the right to get that kind of vulnerability from you. And given his history, it is going to take a lot from your H to get there.

True! Thanks for the reminder. I have watched several of her videos. I may need to rewatch some of them.

The other is it sounds like you don't quite know what you want from your H. ":)oing something small" is a pretty low bar. "Rekindle something" is a pretty big result, not so likely to be achieved by barely getting over a such a low bar.

I know what I friggin' want. I want him to love me like he means it. Period. He could give me a friggin' turd on a stick and I would be happy with it IF it was done with love and without expectation. When we were first dating, we were both poor college students. I was getting my bachelor's degree and he was getting his first master's degree. We would pool our money together and go eat off the value menu. On our first V-day, we celebrated it a day late because he was busy on V-day. I bought a clearance cake and he cooked me dinner. He saved the little topper thing off of that cake and the following year he glued it to a piece of paper and did some calligraphy and made me a home made card. That was friggin' awesome!

It is difficult to explain. The easiest way to explain it is to allude to other relationships that I have had. I was engaged to a guy when I was in college. I never questioned his feelings for me. I didn't have to tell him what to do or how to act. I didn't have to give him a friggin' operating manual to figure me out.

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmmm... .he doesn't have the capacity to be really intimate with you on a date. [Your original issue]

Hmmmm... .he finds excuses not to try. Or even falls asleep.

I remember a particular time where I was in a situation that I wasn't comfortable with, and didn't want to acknowledge, accept, or deal with... .and I got really sleepy.

Looking back, I can see that it was my body/mind/soul's way of keeping me from seeing something/dealing with it. I was completely unaware at the time.

If trying to get on a date with your husband feels like pushing string... .there is a good reason... .and it probably won't give you what you really want out of it, even if you do make it happen against the resistance.

[cross posted with your last reply... .not talking 'bout that]

[vortex of confusion]

Looking back, I can see that it was my body/mind/soul's way of keeping me from seeing something/dealing with it. I was completely unaware at the time.

I think you may be on to something with this. I have often questioned his tendency to fall asleep. He can stay awake to play games, read books, and do other stuff. It feels like he can't stay awake to talk to me unless we go sit on the porch, which is less than stellar due to summer heat and mosquitoes.

I think he is in complete denial. There is something going on with him that he cannot or will not confront because he is too afraid. He doesn't deal with things as they come up. He tends to wait until there is no option but to deal with it. I think that it is a deal where "If I ignore it long enough, it will go away."

[formflier]

Maybe I have made it too easy for him. I don't want or need a lot. I am really low maintenance.

I think there is something here... .(not saying this is you fault)... .but I do think it will be up to you to "change the dynamic"

Also... .I think Grey used the term "low bar".

Set the bar higher... significantly... .  he won't make it over... .but I think he will jump higher than with the low bar he has now.

Is there a "milestone" coming in his recovery?  Is there stuff going on over there that would make you not wan to "push" "over here" on your stuff?

If so... .if you decide to delay... .I think for your sake that you should put a time on the calendar where you are going to set the bar up

Thoughts?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

I think there is something here... .(not saying this is you fault)... .but I do think it will be up to you to "change the dynamic"

Also... .I think Grey used the term "low bar".

Set the bar higher... significantly... .  he won't make it over... .but I think he will jump higher than with the low bar he has now.

How the heck do I higher the bar when it comes to intimacy type stuff? I am having a disconnect with that one.

Is there a "milestone" coming in his recovery?

In all honesty, I have stopped worrying about his milestones. He will tell me but I let them go in one ear and out the other. I think the longest he has made it is 6 months. I think he is right at 3 months at the moment.

Is there stuff going on over there that would make you not wan to "push" "over here" on your stuff?

I think his recovery is going okay. I don't want to push anything right now because we haven't gotten a letter saying that our case with CPS is closed. Until I get that letter, I am not going to relax or try to push anything at all. Right now, I am coasting and trying figure out what is next.

If so... .if you decide to delay... .I think for your sake that you should put a time on the calendar where you are going to set the bar up

Before I can set a time limit on anything, I need to figure out how in the world to set the bar higher. I have been with him for 17 years so I don't have a clue what is a realistic expectation for a wife to place on her husband in some of those areas. I know what I can realistically get from HIM and that is about it.

[formflier]

 

Let him know what it looks like... .don't worry if he "feels" it... .let him know what to do.

So... .the movie idea... .lay it out just like that.

Or something else that you would enjoy... .

Realizing that you'll get 80%... .

It will be a start... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Let him know what it looks like... .don't worry if he "feels" it... .let him know what to do.

Hmmm. . .I have tried that in the past. It ends up with me doing most, if not all of the planning.

I will admit that I am stuck on the "don't worry if he 'feels' it" part. At one time, I wasn't too bothered about whether or not he feels it. Now, one of the things that I really want is for him to feel it. I realize that is not realistic. This stems from a hurt that I have and cannot seem to find a way to forget it or move passed it. The hurt is that I asked him to plan a date for us for our 15th anniversary. He reluctantly did it. A week later, he had the opportunity to plan something with a girl he met online. He was very excited and proactive about that. I threw a bit of a fit and he didn't go meet her. I haven't sufficiently dealt with how much that hurt me. And, I can't seem to let it go. I know that is my problem, not his. I have to find a way to let it go without wanting him to do anything different. I want him to get excited about me the way he got excited about the different women that he was talking to online. I feel like that is a very stupid and very unrealistic thing to want.

So... .the movie idea... .lay it out just like that.

Or something else that you would enjoy... .

Realizing that you'll get 80%... .

It will be a start... .

I do tend to make all of the plans and lay it out like that. If I want to do something with him, I have to plan it. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 80% is too high. That is completely unrealistic.

I feel like I have reached the peak of what he can do with regards to connecting with me. Tonight after I got home from work, we sat on the porch together. I listened to him talk. At one point, he asked if there was anything I wanted to talk about. I told him a little about something that happened at work. Without missing a beat, he went right back to talk about whatever it was that he wanted to talk about. Then, he asked me if I had talked to my mom lately. I told him about that and before I got much of a chance to say anything else, he jumps back in talking.

At one point during the conversation, he asked what had been on my mind. I told him, "I have been trying to think of things that we can do to help us connect more." His response was, "I think not talking about our relationship has been helpful." And then he changed the subject and went on to talking about something else. It didn't phase me. I quietly laughed in my head and thought to myself, "See, this is why I have a difficult time feeling connected. You talk and talk and talk." Yes, I can talk like crazy too. Sometimes, I don't like to talk. I like to sit and enjoy the night air and be with him without all of the talking. I have tried to tell him that sometimes I just want to be with him without all of the talking. My kids get this. I can sit on the porch with the kids and we watch the birds and listen to the sounds and talk about what we see and here or we sit there and just listen to the sounds of being outside. I like to take in my surroundings. It is difficult to do that when there is incessant chattering about a whole lot of stuff that doesn't amount to much of anything. I suck at small talk and that seems to be what my husband is best at. I need to learn how to get better at making small talk with him. The problem is that when I am trying to connect, I like to keep things slow and low key. A lot of times, he jumps in while I am mid thought.

I am venting at this point. I think the thing that I need to work on most is radical acceptance.

[waverider]

Do you feel lonely?

[vortex of confusion]

Do you feel lonely?

Absolutely!

The funny thing is that I don't feel as lonely when he isn't home. When I am at work or when it is just me and the kids, I don't seem to have those feelings of loneliness. When I sit on the porch by myself, I don't feel lonely at all. I am able to sit and enjoy the silence. When I am out there with him, the loneliness sometimes feels like it is going to engulf me. That makes no sense to me.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[disillusionedandsore]

It makes perfect sense to me... .Been there... .yearning to be loved,  seen,  heard,  acknowledged or appreciated hurts.

[formflier]

 

Tell him you want to sit on the porch... .hold his hand... .and not talk.  That you might ask him a question or two... or mention a shooting star you saw... .but you don't want to chatter.



Might also follow up with sometimes I like to chatter... .sometimes I like to be silent and enjoy the peace.  Right now... .I want to enjoy the peace WITH YOU!

VOC,

I totally get what you enjoy.  Many times I am the same way.  A bit odd for me... because I am a big talker and extrovert.

Some of my favorite times with my kids are when we are mostly quiet... .but talk about random things we see.

I remember this trip with my daughter... she's now 18... .was probably 10 or so at the time.  We were driving along and the only thing she or I would mention was when we saw a horse.  There would be a couple comments about that horse... .the pasture... .then we would enjoy the countryside again.  Totally not planned... .

Last thought... .your husband is trying... .and is clueless.  You are the one with the clue... .share it with him... .tell him your expectations... .

 

FF

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Wanted a separate entry about the hurt that you are carrying... .

Can you let the hurt give you energy to press ahead?  I'm guessing that at this point forgiveness is off the table (I'm still processing that article... .it's an interesting point of view... )

What have you been doing with that hurt since it happened?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Tell him you want to sit on the porch... .hold his hand... .and not talk.  That you might ask him a question or two... or mention a shooting star you saw... .but you don't want to chatter.

I have tried to tell him this on several occasions. I have tried to tell him that I don't always like to talk. Sometimes I just want some quiet.

Might also follow up with sometimes I like to chatter... .sometimes I like to be silent and enjoy the peace.  Right now... .I want to enjoy the peace WITH YOU!

That doesn't really work. He is very uncomfortable with the silence. If we are outside, he will get up and go in. If he is sitting in the living room with me, he will nod off and fall asleep.

Last thought... .your husband is trying... .and is clueless.  You are the one with the clue... .share it with him... .tell him your expectations... .

 

<sigh>

I know he is trying and is clueless. I try to tell him what I want. I have sent him articles. I have told him every way I know how. I have written poems and blog posts trying to tell him what I want. I have tried to use every word that I know to use.

And there is also this tendency for me to tell him what I want only to have him do it once or twice and then that is it. I know that you have complained about your wife acting like it doesn't count because she had to tell you to do it. I have those same feelings at times. I recently sent my husband an article about things that are relationship building. He seems to prefer me sending him reading materials. He doesn't seem to take it as personally when I send him articles about things both of us can do to build the relationship. I forget what was on the list at the moment. Most of the stuff is stuff that I already do. One of the things that I know was on the list was writing notes. A couple days after that, I would wake up and find little notes. That lasted for a week or so and then he hasn't done it again. No, I didn't fall all over myself about the note. I quietly enjoyed it. The whole point of the article was to do nice things for your partner without expectation. And, I was irritated because writing a note was one of the things on the list that was the absolute easiest thing to do. It felt like a real cop out to me.

[vortex of confusion]

Wanted a separate entry about the hurt that you are carrying... .

Can you let the hurt give you energy to press ahead?  I'm guessing that at this point forgiveness is off the table (I'm still processing that article... .it's an interesting point of view... )

What have you been doing with that hurt since it happened?

I have been pressing ahead for years. My hurts are mine. I try not to bring them up. Sometimes I bring them up. I have worked really hard at trying NOT to bring them up. If I do bring them up, I try to make sure that I am owning that it is my hurt.

I don't know what to do with the hurt. It is there. It is what it is. I have a lot of hurts about things that my husband has done. I have no clue what to do with them. I was trying to talk about them with that coach but she decided to report me. I will be the first to admit that I said a lot of ugly things about my husband. I was trying to let out all of the stuff that I have stuffed down.

I tend to use my hurts as motivation for me to improve and do better.

[Daniell85]

Report you? I hope you have found a different coach.

[formflier]

I know that you have complained about your wife acting like it doesn't count because she had to tell you to do it. I have those same feelings at times. 

Yes... .but I did them... .and if she hadn't communicated to me that she wanted xyz done... .most of that stuff would have never happened.

The reason I brought this up is there has been a time or two where you mentioned your hubby was doing well at doing what you said around the house... .you didn't say he was "obedient"... .but that is how I took it.

My guess is that he realizes (on some level) that he is cludo... .and that you aren't.

So... .he is looking to you for leadership.

Get more specific... .I'd like to spend 15 minutes with you on the porch... .holding hands... .where we can be quiet and be together.  If needed... ask him to bring a fresh cup of coffee (for the other hand) to help him stay awake.

This is about you and your feelings.  Let him figure out how to deal with is uncomfortableness with the quiet... .that's not your issue.

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Yes... .but I did them... .and if she hadn't communicated to me that she wanted xyz done... .most of that stuff would have never happened.

The reason I brought this up is there has been a time or two where you mentioned your hubby was doing well at doing what you said around the house... .you didn't say he was "obedient"... .but that is how I took it.

Obedient is a good term to use. I am not sure how to explain this. I think the bottom line is that I am tired. I know I am whining and complaining a bit here. I work two part time jobs and homeschool 4 kids. My days are spent managing everyone and everything. I am sometimes overwhelmed and tired and the last thing that I want to do is have to manage a relationship where I have to tell my husband what to do. I know that a lot of this is my own fault because there are times when I just don't have the energy to tell him to come sit with me in silence for 15 minutes. It is easier to sit and listen to him drone on.

Get more specific... .I'd like to spend 15 minutes with you on the porch... .holding hands... .where we can be quiet and be together.  If needed... ask him to bring a fresh cup of coffee (for the other hand) to help him stay awake.

This is about you and your feelings.  Let him figure out how to deal with is uncomfortableness with the quiet... .that's not your issue.

I don't get as specific as giving a time frame.

He does deal with his uncomfortableness. He deals with the uncomfortableness by talking or finding a reason to get up and do something else.

The fact that I don't like it is on me, not him. It is about me and my feelings. He isn't capable of seeing how I might feel rejected by this. A lot of times, I get tongue tied or am at a loss for words when trying to communicate with him.

[formflier]

 

Or... .if he likes to read things... .you can email him your request... .

Be specific... set the bar higher... .

[vortex of confusion]

Or... .if he likes to read things... .you can email him your request... .

Be specific... set the bar higher... .

I have done that in the past.

When I am at work at night, I e-mail back and forth with him and give him things to do. . .take out the trash, check the laundry, I want to eat X when I get home.

I think RA is what is needed. I don't know that it is possible to give him specifics with regards to emotional needs. They are mine to deal with. Trying to give him directions and telling him exactly what to do and how to do isn't something that comes anywhere close to meeting my emotional needs.

I seem to recall you mentioning the energy sucking. Trying to give him directions about so many things sucks my energy and creates an even bigger black hole. I get frustrated when I read the suggestion to be more specific and raise the bar higher. I can do that about house cleaning and things that do not require emotional input. What I want is the emotional element and I know that I am NOT going to get that from my husband. It isn't him being abusive or neglectful or mean. It is him lacking the skills and ability. If he wants to gain those skills and abilities, then he needs to try to work that into his counseling sessions. I don't see it as my circus. Yes, it impacts me but I have to find healthy ways to deal with it.

I don't think some of your suggestions are all that healthy for me because they have a hint of magical thinking. It puts me back on that wheel where I am thinking that I am not enough. If only I could find a better way to communicate. . .If only I could be more specific. . .If only I could this or that or the other. . .I can't and won't get back on that wheel.

Further up in the thread, Phoebe said something about who you are should exude through your pores or something like that. I have made no secrets about who I am or what I want. My husband is incapable of seeing it for whatever reason. I have made a commitment to stay with him as long as possible and am trying to figure out how to stay the course without losing my mind. He isn't a bad guy at all. One of the kids asked me if he has asperger's or autism because of his inability to understand things that seem so basic to others.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

 

Hang in there... .I think you are great... .let me come at this from a different angle.  And... .if you are interested in venting, being heard, being validated... .and not dealing with action steps (fixing)... .that's cool too.  I'll hush

Your hubby meeting your emotional needs... is too big a leap... .I'm trying to break it down into smaller steps.

Step 1... .spend quiet time together.  Where he is quiet and responds to what you say... .if you choose to say. 

As far as energy... .don't worry about what he will do.  Think about what you would like... .say it clearly... .stop spending energy.  You are responsible for what comes out of your mouth... .nothing more.

Last thought:  I've talked to many counselors about wooing women... .improving the r/s and most of the time... .the advice is to engage them in conversation... .talk... .be in their world.  There is nothing wrong with spending quiet time together... .but I think if you left it to counselors to educate your hubby that you want that.  I don't think he will ever get it.

Hang in there!

FF

[Cat Familiar]

VOC,

I may be wrong, but what I'm reading between the lines in your communication is that you are just not attracted to who your husband is. Part of that may be due to the history you've shared with him and the dysfunctional way he has behaved due to his sex addiction.

You would like him to be as interested in you as he was with women he was sexting, but that's unlikely to happen because you see each other daily and your routines with each other are established. In other words, he's not painting you white as he did with the women he wanted to meet--or as he did when you were a new couple, without the responsibilities of household and children.

I don't have any advice for you as I'm dealing with a similar feeling with my husband. It is difficult indeed to get past previous bad behavior on their part and it certainly changes the initial attraction, as we get to know the dark side of their personality.  

[waverider]

VOC,

I may be wrong, but what I'm reading between the lines in your communication is that you are just not attracted to who your husband is. Part of that may be due to the history you've shared with him and the dysfunctional way he has behaved due to his sex addiction.

This is what I am reading too. You have lost the love and respect.

Leading him by the noise is one thing, but the driver in the seat in his car has little chemical appeal to you. To much damage has scarred your view of him.

You can't force this. Trying to get him to mould into someone you like takes too much energy. So does worrying about whether he will try or not. I think FF is right though in that you need to communicate you needs clearly and dont waste energy seeing if he meets them or not, that is his choice.Thinking "I wishing I could say this or that" is also draining.

It may take time, which you are still willing to give, and your thoughts may drift back again when more water has passed under the bridge. Let that unfold as it will, for now don't try to overthink it, and just put your efforts into polishing up you daily life so that you get the most of it, don't focus on the end goal, its not decison time yet.

Your future is still just a seed, keep watering it and see what new life grows from it. Tomorrow is a mystery, don't let todays doubts infect it before it has had time to develop properly. You may just feel like a caretaker today, but it may not always be so.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Hey VOC,

Sorry for these struggles but sure acknowledge your willingness.    Regarding your request for specific suggestions on how to increase intimacy,  you might read the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch (www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=Passionate+Marriage).   It gives both a paradigm of intimacy and specific tools for helping to achieve intimacy.   This would be an enormously worthwhile endeavor whether you stay with your husband or not.   If you pursue this earnestly,  you will grow and gain as a result.   If those gains lead you and your husband towards each other in a satisfying and fulfilling way,  then amen.  And if those gains lead you away from him,  then amen.   Because if pursued,  this paradigm will lead you to you.  And that is the you who will decide with whom to best share the intimate self you are.   This is not for the faint of heart.   I tried with my ex-husband who wasn't totally into it.   But,  truth be told,  I was too scared myself and was happy to use him as an excuse to not do this deeply uncomfortable and profound work.   I do not make this suggestion as one who has succeeded.   Just as one who is hungry for the journey.   Hope you'll take a serious look.   Would love to know your thoughts.  

Big hug,

rml

[vortex of confusion]

Hang in there... .I think you are great... .let me come at this from a different angle.  And... .if you are interested in venting, being heard, being validated... .and not dealing with action steps (fixing)... .that's cool too.  I'll hush

I feel like I have done my part with the action steps. The ball is in his court at the moment. I am trying to keep myself in a place of balance. In all honesty, I am feeling the urge to pick a fight with him because I know that I can get him to engage if I pick a fight. I don't want to do that. I haven't done that in a long time and I don't want to go back to that.

Step 1... .spend quiet time together.  Where he is quiet and responds to what you say... .if you choose to say. 

Bwahahahahaha. . .the man can't even be quiet in his sleep!

As far as energy... .don't worry about what he will do.  Think about what you would like... .say it clearly... .stop spending energy.  You are responsible for what comes out of your mouth... .nothing more.

Yep, I am responsible for what comes out of my mouth. The first thing that comes to mind is the phrase, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." 

Last thought:  I've talked to many counselors about wooing women... .improving the r/s and most of the time... .the advice is to engage them in conversation... .talk... .be in their world.  There is nothing wrong with spending quiet time together... .but I think if you left it to counselors to educate your hubby that you want that.  I don't think he will ever get it.

You have a very good point. If he tried to woo me like one would woo the typical woman, that would likely drive an even bigger wedge between us. Without the woo, some better communication skills would be helpful.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC,

I may be wrong, but what I'm reading between the lines in your communication is that you are just not attracted to who your husband is. Part of that may be due to the history you've shared with him and the dysfunctional way he has behaved due to his sex addiction.

This is what I am reading too. You have lost the love and respect.

Exactly! It is difficult to love and respect him at this point. At this point, it has become a choice that I am actively making.

You can't force this. Trying to get him to mould into someone you like takes too much energy. So does worrying about whether he will try or not. I think FF is right though in that you need to communicate you needs clearly and dont waste energy seeing if he meets them or not, that is his choice.Thinking "I wishing I could say this or that" is also draining.

I don't feel like I am trying to force this. I feel more like I am trying to keep myself in check and that is where I feel like a lot of my energy goes.

It may take time, which you are still willing to give, and your thoughts may drift back again when more water has passed under the bridge. Let that unfold as it will, for now don't try to overthink it, and just put your efforts into polishing up you daily life so that you get the most of it, don't focus on the end goal, its not decison time yet.

I am trying to be patient and let time pass. I know me. I have to talk about this stuff somewhere and get it out so I don't blow a fuse with him.

[vortex of confusion]

Sorry for these struggles but sure acknowledge your willingness.    Regarding your request for specific suggestions on how to increase intimacy,  you might read the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch (www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=Passionate+Marriage).   It gives both a paradigm of intimacy and specific tools for helping to achieve intimacy.   This would be an enormously worthwhile endeavor whether you stay with your husband or not.   If you pursue this earnestly,  you will grow and gain as a result.   If those gains lead you and your husband towards each other in a satisfying and fulfilling way,  then amen.  And if those gains lead you away from him,  then amen.   Because if pursued,  this paradigm will lead you to you.  And that is the you who will decide with whom to best share the intimate self you are.   This is not for the faint of heart.   I tried with my ex-husband who wasn't totally into it.   But,  truth be told,  I was too scared myself and was happy to use him as an excuse to not do this deeply uncomfortable and profound work.   I do not make this suggestion as one who has succeeded.   Just as one who is hungry for the journey.   Hope you'll take a serious look.   Would love to know your thoughts.  

Could you give me some more information about what this paradigm is that you are referencing?

I went and looked through the table of contents and it seems to be a book that is primarily focused on sex. Can you give me some ideas from the book? What specifically didn't work with your ex husband? I would like a little more information about the book.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Sorry for these struggles but sure acknowledge your willingness.    Regarding your request for specific suggestions on how to increase intimacy,  you might read the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch (www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=Passionate+Marriage).   It gives both a paradigm of intimacy and specific tools for helping to achieve intimacy.   This would be an enormously worthwhile endeavor whether you stay with your husband or not.   If you pursue this earnestly,  you will grow and gain as a result.   If those gains lead you and your husband towards each other in a satisfying and fulfilling way,  then amen.  And if those gains lead you away from him,  then amen.   Because if pursued,  this paradigm will lead you to you.  And that is the you who will decide with whom to best share the intimate self you are.   This is not for the faint of heart.   I tried with my ex-husband who wasn't totally into it.   But,  truth be told,  I was too scared myself and was happy to use him as an excuse to not do this deeply uncomfortable and profound work.   I do not make this suggestion as one who has succeeded.   Just as one who is hungry for the journey.   Hope you'll take a serious look.   Would love to know your thoughts.   

Could you give me some more information about what this paradigm is that you are referencing?

I went and looked through the table of contents and it seems to be a book that is primarily focused on sex. Can you give me some ideas from the book? What specifically didn't work with your ex husband? I would like a little more information about the book.

Hey VOC,

Yes(!), sex is involved but it is much more than sex.  This link (www.crucibletherapy.com/approach-marital-sexual-therapy) more about the paradigm though this being its own therapy is new information to me.  I would give it a serious look and not throw the baby out with the bathwater because it seems to be about sex.  From what I gather from your posts, you and your husband are still sexually active together, despite any short or long-term dissatisfactions, so this will hit upon the sexual intimacy and the emotional intimacy.  As I said, I have not successfully implemented this (and yes, I could have done much of it myself without my then-husband's participation) but I aspire to do so.  I took the easy way out and threw in the towel because I said he wasn't into it.  It would probably be more accurate to say if I had truly pursued it he would have gone along with me and we both could have benefited.  I think it would have had much merit for each of us individually and as a means to developing good r/s skills whether or not we had stayed together. 

I wonder if anyone here has had personal experience with Passionate Marriage?

I would love to hear your thoughts should you choose to read it.  If I had it on a kindle I would loan it to you but I bought the hard copy many years ago.  There is a newer edition since then which I have not seen.

Best wishes towards this end, VOC!

[vortex of confusion]

Yes(!), sex is involved but it is much more than sex.  This link (www.crucibletherapy.com/approach-marital-sexual-therapy) more about the paradigm though this being its own therapy is new information to me.  I would give it a serious look and not throw the baby out with the bathwater because it seems to be about sex.  From what I gather from your posts, you and your husband are still sexually active together, despite any short or long-term dissatisfactions, so this will hit upon the sexual intimacy and the emotional intimacy.  As I said, I have not successfully implemented this (and yes, I could have done much of it myself without my then-husband's participation) but I aspire to do so.  I took the easy way out and threw in the towel because I said he wasn't into it.  It would probably be more accurate to say if I had truly pursued it he would have gone along with me and we both could have benefited.  I think it would have had much merit for each of us individually and as a means to developing good r/s skills whether or not we had stayed together. 

Thanks for the information! I was wanting more information about the book as it is 448 pages long.

I have read similar information in other places. The bottom line is to commit to working on yourself and becoming differentiated in order to grow the relationship. I recently listened to some recordings from a marriage therapist that said some of these same things. Instead of focusing on being committed to the relationship, you have to be committed to personal growth. With the help of people on these forums, I think I have done pretty well at focusing on myself more.

I wonder if this book is mentioned in the book review section of this forum. Maybe you could start a thread over there to discuss the book. It looks really interesting.

[123Phoebe]

It may take time, which you are still willing to give, and your thoughts may drift back again when more water has passed under the bridge. Let that unfold as it will, for now don't try to overthink it, and just put your efforts into polishing up you daily life so that you get the most of it, don't focus on the end goal, its not decison time yet.

I am trying to be patient and let time pass. I know me. I have to talk about this stuff somewhere and get it out so I don't blow a fuse with him.

As important as it is having a safe place to vent our feelings and frustrations (Thanks bpdfamily!) and realizing that it's hard finding ways to carve out "me time" when there's a real life family to tend to, it is so very important to find that quiet place for just you, Vortex.  A place where there is no venting or trying to figure stuff out; a place to feel your own vibrations.  I know that sounds hokey, but it's the best way I can describe it.  To me, it is the essence of self soothing.  Not needing others to validate what's within me.  Validating myself that what's going on within me needs a little TLC.  TLC that only I can provide.

When I can tap into that quiet place within me, the rest of the outside stuff just kinda becomes noise and confusion that I can see my way through.  This too shall pass... . 

And it does!  While also creating and opening up a safe harbor for bf to sail into.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Thanks for the information! I was wanting more information about the book as it is 448 pages long.

I have read similar information in other places. The bottom line is to commit to working on yourself and becoming differentiated in order to grow the relationship. I recently listened to some recordings from a marriage therapist that said some of these same things. Instead of focusing on being committed to the relationship, you have to be committed to personal growth. With the help of people on these forums, I think I have done pretty well at focusing on myself more.

I wonder if this book is mentioned in the book review section of this forum. Maybe you could start a thread over there to discuss the book. It looks really interesting.

Hey VOC,

Here is an overview of the book:  www.passionatemarriage.com/passionatemarriage/overview

And a review:  www.crucible4points.com/book-review-passionate-marriage-dr-david-schnarch

I think what struck me so much about this book was the paradigm of "holding onto myself" WHILE literally holding onto my partner in the midst of the intimate act of lovemaking.  The discomfort of being so very intimate with myself in that moment... .even when he was or wasn't  being his most intimate with me or himself. 

I am wonderfully independent and easily fashioned a happy life of my own even while co-existing with my husband.  So in some ways I felt very differentiated.  But when push came to shove, maybe (certainly) I was less so than I thought b/c I was very uncomfortable and unwilling to be that intimate with him... .that intimate with myself while with him.  I guess it feels like it was easier to be intimate with him when there was distance; but could I be really intimate with myself and with him while he was that close?  I could do all the good sex stuff.  But that was radically different than the intimacy I read about in the book (which does not promote lame sex, btw).  Whatever it was, it was a serious growing edge and I didn't go there. 

As I write about it, I realize I need to go back and read the book!  It resonated with me so my encouraging you to read it is likely also an invitation for me to read it again.

I look forward to hearing more from you - what works and what doesn't - on your quest for more intimacy!

[Grey Kitty]

Looking back, I can see that it was my body/mind/soul's way of keeping me from seeing something/dealing with it. I was completely unaware at the time.

I think you may be on to something with this. I have often questioned his tendency to fall asleep. He can stay awake to play games, read books, and do other stuff. It feels like he can't stay awake to talk to me unless we go sit on the porch, which is less than stellar due to summer heat and mosquitoes.

I think he is in complete denial. There is something going on with him that he cannot or will not confront because he is too afraid. He doesn't deal with things as they come up. He tends to wait until there is no option but to deal with it. I think that it is a deal where "If I ignore it long enough, it will go away."

Yep, I believe the denial / if I ignore it long enough it will go away thing is happening.

This bit of insight into what is going on underneath your H's awareness at these times is err ... .not actionable on your part, I don't think.

You can't really shake him out of denial. He'll have to find his own way out. I know when *I* did things like that I didn't figure it out 'till months or years later, although mine was less of a repeated pattern than his, I think. Dunno if that means it was easier or harder for me to figure it out though!



Unrelated Note: I really liked the book "Passionate Marriage" and I'd say that it dealt with sex and relationships together, mostly because sex is an important part of relationships, and one that usually isn't talked about very well between the partners. What I got out of it was more about relationships, personal growth, and differentiation. (Perhaps I'm not remembering the parts specifically about sex as much right now. It has been a while since I read it.)

[vortex of confusion]

Yep, I believe the denial / if I ignore it long enough it will go away thing is happening.

This bit of insight into what is going on underneath your H's awareness at these times is err ... .not actionable on your part, I don't think.

You are right. It isn't something that is actionable on my part. What recognizing this does for me is allow me to stop wondering and ruminating and asking the question of "Why isn't he doing something about this?" He isn't addressing some things because he is unable to acknowledge their existence. Being aware of that helps me to not take things so personally and it helps me to be more patient.

That is a far cry from when I was convinced that he was or wasn't doing things based on his love for me. His love for me is not really in the equation at all and it does me no good to sit and fret about it.

You can't really shake him out of denial. He'll have to find his own way out. I know when *I* did things like that I didn't figure it out 'till months or years later, although mine was less of a repeated pattern than his, I think. Dunno if that means it was easier or harder for me to figure it out though!

And I know from personal experience how invalidating it is to have somebody else try to describe your reality for you and then insist that you are in denial. (What happened with my coach) I wouldn't wish that kind of invalidation on anybody. Knowing that helps me to be more patient.

I want things fixed and I want them fixed right now!  

[formflier]

  (What happened with my coach) 

At some point... .I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on your experience with a coach. 

The concept is new to me... so I'm curious.

However... my understanding is there is some painful stuff there... .so... .if you would rather skip it... .or wait... I understand!

FF

[vortex of confusion]

  (What happened with my coach) 

At some point... .I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on your experience with a coach. 

The concept is new to me... so I'm curious.

However... my understanding is there is some painful stuff there... .so... .if you would rather skip it... .or wait... I understand!

I will give some cursory thoughts about the coach. This thread will be locked soon as it is reaching its post limit. Maybe I can post about it some more in the personal inventory board.

First off, I didn't really see much difference between what the coach was doing and what I have done with counselors in the past.

I thought she was supposed to help me set goals and stay motivated to do small stuff like take regular walks. I am not sure how or when things got so convoluted. She was a trauma coach. As I reflect back on that, I am not sure how that is possible. How can somebody that doesn't have extensive training in pscychology, trauma, etc. coach somebody through something traumatic.

She was working with me pro bono. Her normal fee was something like 125 an hour. If I had that kind of money, I would completely bypass using a coach and go to a trained professional.

Another problem with the coaching stuff is that, in my state and many others, coaches are not regulated. I had a similar problem with a licensed professional, I could have talked to the state regulators. When I called them, they said that I had no recourse as they are not regulated.

I wouldn't recommend using a life coach in all honesty. She was supposed to NOT be a counselor and not venture into areas where a licensed professional would be better. I can't fathom a counselor or anybody saying, "What I see is a woman that is being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused and is in deep denial." I think my experience with`a coach is very skewed and not likely representative of other people's experiences with a life coach.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .