She comes back tomorrow.

[maxsterling]

W comes back tomorrow evening.  I am trying to not have expectations, and instead trying to find strength and wisdom to deal with whatever comes my way.  Seems like she is in "negative mode" right now - everyone she has been in contact with on her vacation has annoyed her in some way - she's painted them all black.  Sadly, what she is annoyed with is behavior that she exhibits herself - being overly negative, judgmental, and loud. 

I'll do my best to make her feel welcome when she comes home, but I need to be careful not to over extend myself as a means of trying to keep her calm. 

On personal notes - I gave a presentation at my primary job yesterday that was well-received.  I also am very much enjoying my second job - I find it to be very mindful work.  Group therapy is proving to be quite helpful.

And one more thing - I had to drop a key off to some of my W's AA friends this morning, and they both asked how I was doing, and acted concerned and asked if I was still going to Alanon.  They both expressed the importance of finding support for myself.  I think that just shows that my wife's friends know how difficult she is and how things have been. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I'll do my best to make her feel welcome when she comes home, but I need to be careful not to over extend myself as a means of trying to keep her calm. 

I think job number 1 for you... .is how you approach the first "negativisim"... .and certainly the first abusive words.  And to stay consistent with that response.

Hoping you can stay centered and not participate in it... .leave her to her devices to solve it... .or not.

Max,

i'm sure they know.  I've picked up the impression that your wife seems to be pretty consistent in her approach to r/s issues... .regardless of who it is with.  Seems to me that others have spouses that have a "public face" and then turn into something else when they get home.

Have I interpreted correctly? 

FF

[maxsterling]

I'll do my best to make her feel welcome when she comes home, but I need to be careful not to over extend myself as a means of trying to keep her calm. 

I think job number 1 for you... .is how you approach the first "negativisim"... .and certainly the first abusive words.  And to stay consistent with that response.

Hoping you can stay centered and not participate in it... .leave her to her devices to solve it... .or not.

Max,

i'm sure they know.  I've picked up the impression that your wife seems to be pretty consistent in her approach to r/s issues... .regardless of who it is with.  Seems to me that others have spouses that have a "public face" and then turn into something else when they get home.

Have I interpreted correctly? 

FF

Yeah, that's pretty much it.  She has the same issues with all other r/s that she has with me, it's only a matter of time before it manifests itself.  The severity of her discomfort is always inversely proportional to her physical proximity within the r/s.  Things are okay as long as the r/s is over a distance and communication is limited.  But, when she spends extended time with anyone, it's guaranteed she will wind up upset and frustrated.  She literally has no close friends now. 

Her current circle of friends have mostly pulled away to avoid her drama.  They've seen the behavior, too.  W thinks it is because of me that they have pulled away, but I think it was the suicide attempt that scared many of them off. 

[formflier]

 

OK... .what is your plan for when negativism shows up?

Certainly not practical to say zero tolerance... .but... .at what point do you say you need to talk about something else.

Baby ducks had a great line... .something to the effect of "I need to end this conversation... .we can either talk about something else... .or we can talk more later."


Abusive talk?

Is zero tolerance possible here?

FF

[maxsterling]

OK... .what is your plan for when negativism shows up?

Certainly not practical to say zero tolerance... .but... .at what point do you say you need to talk about something else.

Baby ducks had a great line... .something to the effect of "I need to end this conversation... .we can either talk about something else... .or we can talk more later."


Abusive talk?

Is zero tolerance possible here?

FF

Both negative talk and abusive talk are probably guaranteed, and zero tolerance is probably not possible.  Negative talk - I am going to try to validate and steer the subject in a positive direction.  Abusive talk?  My plan is to use "I statements" or enforce boundaries depending on how severe I consider the abuse. 

[Verbena]

Max, I'm really glad you've had this long break from the chaos.  How are you doing physically?  I know you have talked about your hearing loss caused by your wife's screaming and losing thirty pounds due to the stress of the relationship. 

Do you feel like your wife's return tomorrow could be the beginning of the end for you?  Are you still prepared to serve the OOP if necessary? 

It doesn't sound like she is coming back any better off given her current state of mind as you have described it and her conflict with others while she was away.   Also, I'm concerned about her illegal drug use the past couple of weeks.  She won't have these drugs to take once she's home, correct?   

[maxsterling]

Max, I'm really glad you've had this long break from the chaos.  How are you doing physically?  I know you have talked about your hearing loss caused by your wife's screaming and losing thirty pounds due to the stress of the relationship. 

Do you feel like your wife's return tomorrow could be the beginning of the end for you?  Are you still prepared to serve the OOP if necessary? 

It doesn't sound like she is coming back any better off given her current state of mind as you have described it and her conflict with others while she was away.   Also, I'm concerned about her illegal drug use the past couple of weeks.  She won't have these drugs to take once she's home, correct?   

I feel much better physically.  And emotionally.  As for my wife's state of mind - yes, her behavior is the same.  But - she did just fly across the country for almost 3 weeks to be in a place that she thought was better amongst people she thought were better,  and found the same thing.  So maybe this will be the motivation for her to distance herself from toxic relationships and work on herself. 

Regarding the drug use - she decided to not stay with that friend anymore, and is staying with family.  Now that she is removed from the friend, she has expressed that the friend has drug issues, and that she now recognized taking other's prescriptions and narcotic pain killers is bad for her.  For the past week, she hasn't been taking them. 

Is it the beginning of the end? Who knows.  I'm prepared for that, but I think I need to take things day-to-day to see how things are. 

[Grey Kitty]

You sound prepared and grounded. I'm wishing you strength.

My $.02 is that you can figure out your path on how to deal with negativity... .but you CAN draw the line about staying present for abusive behavior, and that includes verbal/emotional abuse too. You can step out when it starts.

And if you do... .it will change things, most likely for the better. No guarantee of exactly how or in what direction though.

[formflier]

You can step out when it starts.

And if you do... .it will change things, most likely for the better. No guarantee of exactly how or in what direction though.

My idea exactly... .zero tolerance... .no "warnings"... .pleading... discussion... the discussion is over.

My thoughts on negativity is that after a couple minutes... .some validation... some effort to steer away... .change subjects... .that for your sake there needs to be a break.

Much less concerned about the negativity than the abusive behavior/talk... .

FF

[maxsterling]

Good lord, another one of those "blame me fore everything drag up the past" phone conversations.

And I had been so hopeful and optimistic today.

I feel like total crap now.

[formflier]

 

How long was the conversation?  Was it about your past?  Or her past with others?

 

Hang in there...

FF

[maxsterling]

I'd say it was a 20 minute phone call, with 7 minutes of ugliness.  I excused myself to go eat, to which she just hung up.  A while later, she sent me some ugly texts, to which I didn't respond.  I decided instead to turn my phone off.

I feel really rattled.  I think I am just going to lay on the sofa and watch a movie, and maybe stay home from work tomorrow.  I still havent eaten - too emotional for that. 

The conversation devolved into the same old thing - that I was trying to manipulate her by calling the police on her when she had done nothing wrong, that she never hit me, that I am ruining her life, that I must have a neurological disorder... .

She is staying with an uncle and aunt right now.  I see a decent chance of her completely losing it tonight and attempting suicide or self harm.  I need to not focus on that, and take care of myself.

[formflier]

I'd say it was a 20 minute phone call, with 7 minutes of ugliness.  I excused myself to go eat, to which she just hung up.  A while later, she sent me some ugly texts, to which I didn't respond.  I decided instead to turn my phone off.

   

Hang in there Max.  The effort and love you are putting into this r/s is amazing... .

What do you think was in your power to do... .so that you might have felt less rattled last night after the phone call.

FF

[maxsterling]

FF - i would have felt rattled no matter what.  It's not so much the conversation, but the act of enforcing a boundary that has me rattled.  My whole body stated hurting last night, and this morning a big headache.  Turning off the phone was a good idea.  She of course did her venting, but I took care of myself and didn't engage.

[formflier]

  but the act of enforcing a boundary that has me rattled. 

Why do you think that is? 

FF

[satahal]

Max,

I'm new here and you've been kind enough to respond and offer support to me.

Reading this thread, my heart goes out to you. Please be safe and protect yourself and know people are rooting for you.

[maxsterling]

I took the day off work because I feel horrible.  It feels like I drank a whole 12 pack last night, yet I drank nothing.  Body aches all over, especially my upper back, I feel slow and sluggish. I still have a headache, and my ears feel like they are under water.  I go to the doctor to have a detailed hearing test tomorrow, and it sounds like I may also have an MRI on my head.  I'm sure stress is a factor here, but the ear issue is strange.  The ringing feels worse lately, and I think it is related to the headache.

I may be overly worried because a man I know from alanon recently died suddenly of a brain tumor.  He wasn't that much older than me.  In his case, he went to the doctor complaining of dizziness and inner ear issues.  After a mis-diagnosis of an infection, he had an MRI and they discovered a tumor. A few weeks later, he was in the operating room and never recovered.  He was just finalizing a divorce from a woman that sounds like she had many BPD traits.  He spent years re-taking control of his life, and was finally enjoying peace and freedom.

[satahal]

Max,

This is scary - these relationships - any bad relationship or high stress situation over a period of time can have devastating health consequences.

Please, think this through, whether hanging on to the r/s is worth your health. It sounds like you have rewarding work and people who care about you. You have a lot to live for.

I will keep you in my prayers. When I experience high stress I get headaches and the muffled hearing and dizziness effect, so I'm hoping it is stress and nothing more serious for you as well. It may be your body trying to stop you from incurring further harm.

[Cat Familiar]

Max,

This is scary - these relationships - any bad relationship or high stress situation over a period of time can have devastating health consequences.

Please, think this through, whether hanging on to the r/s is worth your health. It sounds like you have rewarding work and people who care about you. You have a lot to live for.

I echo samanthal's concern for your health. Now that you've had some time alone, it will be interesting for you to observe how you feel being in your wife's presence. You've given it your best shot, so whatever you choose at this point, you know you've brought your best self to the relationship. Now you can decide what you want for your future.

[Verbena]

Max, when I first started reading your posts I had the strong sense that your wife was determined to destroy herself and take you down with her.  I still see that happening.  Unless you put a stop to this, she will continue to do what she's always done and it won't end well. 

Your wife's fixation on you calling the police on her to manipulate her and insistence that she didn't hit you is going to continue until she forces you to say she's right (which I don't see you doing) or until she explodes into a violent rage against you.  It's coming.  You know that it is. 

Your body is trying to tell you that enough is enough. 

[GaGrl]

I agree with Verbena... .what is your body, your very life-force, trying to tell you that your mind-emotion-spirit is not allowing you to acknowledge?

[Sunfl0wer]

The conversation devolved into the same old thing - that I was trying to manipulate her by calling the police on her when she had done nothing wrong, that she never hit me, that I am ruining her life, that I must have a neurological disorder... .

She is staying with an uncle and aunt right now.  I see a decent chance of her completely losing it tonight and attempting suicide or self harm.  I need to not focus on that, and take care of myself.

I wonder what would happen the next time she claims you are ruining her life... .

If you tell her, "you should only come back to the home if you feel that I am a decent person doing my best in trying circumstances." " I would never want a person to not feel safe in their own home.  Neither you, nor I deserve to feel that way.  If you do not feel coming home is beneficial for us both... .figure this out first.  Talk to me when you can recognize you are responsible for your life, feelings, and actions."

Just wondering... .

Out loud. :/

[maxsterling]

Interesting thought, Verbena.  If I am understanding you correctly, you see this as a deliberate attempt at destroying herself, and me, whether subconscious or conscious?  This being different as the self destruction and destruction of me as not being deliberate, but as an unintended result of just her natural behaviors. 

I say this is interesting, because sometimes I get the feeling that my wife simply feels invalidated because well-adjusted people exist.  So, simply by me not fighting back, she feels like her whole life and emotions are invalid.  She wants to assume that everyone is screwed up and mentally ill, because that validates the life she has lived.  And at times, it feels like she wants to cut down on those who are successful, who are in control of their emotions, or are leading a happy life.  There have been times during her rages where I feel that the destruction of me is her goal, as if I am no longer Max, but instead I represent a collective of happy people that eventually washed their hands of her and went on to live a happy life. 

[Verbena]

Max, I do believe it is deliberate because we all have choices, mentally ill or not. 

[sweetheart]

because sometimes I get the feeling that my wife simply feels invalidated because well-adjusted people exist.

This max is such an powerful insight because I believe for my h, like your w this is so true and ultimately for some pwBPD this perpetual invalidation keeps them on that path of self destruction forever.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I feel just like this about my BPDh too. And the fact that his kids display the traits too, I feel makes it seem more "normal" to him. It is his norm, and he seems to resent and need to tear down those who don't share his views or negativity. I think like your wife, he feels invalidated just by me(or some other people) not always buying into HIS reality. He seems to constantly feel blamed or invalidated, no matter that I tell him I'm not blaming him(or tell him specific incidents I do feel he's responsible for the choice he made). I won't sugar coat something for him anymore. We all have to own what we do, and his BPD does not give him an out on that.

It's hard when they feel invalidated no matter what. It's like they choose to feel invalidate at times, even in the face of validation. I give validation a good try, but sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I know I'd sure appreciate it if it was aimed my way!

Hang in there Max.

[maxsterling]

Well, she seems happy to be home.  Maybe she is forcing it.  Maybe she is genuinely happy.

More later... .

[MaroonLiquid]

because sometimes I get the feeling that my wife simply feels invalidated because well-adjusted people exist.

This max is such an powerful insight because I believe for my h, like your w this is so true and ultimately for some pwBPD this perpetual invalidation keeps them on that path of self destruction forever.

This is good insight!  it's the "misery loves company" thing.  They hate that they are messed up and other people aren't.  That's why they paint them black.

[maxsterling]

That insight leaves me feeling hopeless.  I've seen it play out with me, and with others.  I think many times she can't stand when other people are happy because that invalidates her "life sucks, everyone is miserable" type of attitude.

- sometimes she complains about people at her AA meetings, saying, "they act like their life is perfect now, and I know it isn't."

- I remember once she was talking about her favorite book, "Catcher in the Rye", and how all teenagers like that book because they all can relate to the main character.  I replied, "not me, I couldn't get through that book because I could not understand why the main character was so angry and full of hate."

- Once she told me that all teenage kids in her home town were bored and slept around.  I challenged her and asked if that was all the kids.  She relied, "well, I guess my sister didn't."

- She once told me she preferred NA to AA because the people there were more honest and real and rougher around the edges. 

I really think that she views life as a constant frustrating struggle, and others that don't have that struggle infuriate her because it feels invalidating - like she is the only one with the problem.  That feels hopeless to me, because it says just me being happy and not dependent on her is enough for her to paint me black.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Max,

I just wanted to say I read your insight... .

I say this is interesting, because sometimes I get the feeling that my wife simply feels invalidated because well-adjusted people exist.  

Thank you for this.  This applies and makes absolute sense to the BPD people that have been in my life.  My sister would try to prove others had issues, a friend did the same, my ex tried to provoke issues in me.  This helps me to understand all that a bit better.

The scary thing for me is when I was being helped by our MC and behaving very well... .

This triggered BF more.  Instead of just blaming me.  There was nothing to blame, as I was behaving so well in our r/s.  He resorted to trying to trigger and provoke me.  

It sounds like your W has done the same to you on many occasions.

I can see how this realization of yours would make you feel hopeless.  I'm sorry, this is indeed a sad thing to realize.

I think I do hear hope though in your message.  I hear that you are sorting out the "her stuff" vs "the Max stuff" very nicely.  I hear hope that you are gaining much needed clarity with your groups.

The hope I hear... .

Is more likened to when the safety messages come on when traveling via plane.  "Put your mask on first! Before assisting another."

IMO... .

You are learning to put your oxygen mask on.  :)oing this can only benefit ALL those you come in contact with.   ... .think about that.

Thoughts?