Therapeutic Separation? (TS)

[Dobzhansky]

I found a discussion on TS posted previously.  It brought up questions... .

I find myself in a separation that wasn't set up to be a TS at the beginning.  uBPDw has been gone for a year after secretly applying for a job elsewhere.  There was deception involved on her part (pwBPD do this) that has still not been addressed (insofar as it relates to marital trust - not interested in retribution).

Communication is frequent, brief and insubstantial - usually initiated by me.  She has moved to the same town where her parents and brothers reside.  She spends all her spare time (as far as I can tell) at her parents house.  Her parents are living with and caring for her maternal grandmother.  She

I have (enabled?  validated?) this separation by telling her I am ok with her being where she is to help with caring for the grandmother.  Our original plan was to move together to where her parents are to retire from one career and begin another.  Now the official line is:  "laying the groundwork" for our retirement.

Wish I had found bpdfamily before all this.

I guess I would ask:  How do I adapt this situation in to a TS?

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[formflier]

I guess I would ask:  How do I adapt this situation in to a TS?

From what I remember of your other posts... .I'll first ask another direct question... .who does or will your wife submit to?  church... ? counselors?

For there to be a TS... .there needs to be a controlling party or something that is giving therapy or guidance. 

I did one of these last summer... .made a world of difference.  The key is that we were regularly seeing MC and seeing a family T.  Some individual work was going on as well.  It was a busy summer.

Anyway... .the distance is a big issue here.

Last thought for now... .Work on "cleaning up" your communication with your wife. 

I get the vibe that you are not ok with her moving away.  Yet... .you say you have told her you are. 

Own your feelings and desires... .we will help you communicate them in the best way possible.  She still may not like it... (that is her choice)... .please don't worry about that part.

Hang in there!

FF

[Dobzhansky]

Wife submits to no one (except maybe her parents).  We attended MC-ing after a blowout and she wanted to return to the status quo.  This is after the girls and I were informed she had applied for another job out-of-state.  During counseling she came out with how she didn't want a divorce because she would feel like a failure. We made vague plans for MC / work on marriage during absence but that has not happened.  We were also told by her this would be like a sabbatical ands would be back in a year (didn't happen - "I never said that!"  SHORT ANSWER - no guidance of any kind.  I see now how to suggest we get some though.

Girls and I utilize a counselor but we have been doing E. R. type stuff on emotions and depression.  I suggested she come to a session (alone or together) during a visit.  She agreed before coming to town and 24 hours before the morning appointment.  The night before the appointment, when reminded - vehement, loud, angry denial and refusal.

There is confusion with her moving away.  Girls are glad and feel safe.  I was really really sad and despondent of some time - over her departure and the lies that precipitated it.  We even took her aside and said:  "Look.  If you had told us honestly how you were feeling, what you needed and why, we would have totally agreed with you and sent you on your way." 

I also feel safe right now and am leery of a visit to where she lives with her family, or a visit from her here.  I imagined a scenario where if I were faced with a night in the same bed I might look for an empty couch instead.  I don't know how much I really know her now that she has been gone so long.  I have received so little in the way of "meaningful" communication for the past year I really don't know where I stand.

With all of the abuse and time the girls and I spent thinking it was normal behavior, I believe there would have to be a whole lot of counseling before things could even begin to look normal.  Can we live together like that?

SHORT ANSWER - apart from weekly reports on how the girls are doing and household management questions, here really is no communication to clean up.  Maybe "open up" is more accurate?

You people are awesome

[formflier]

really is no communication to clean up.  

Hey... just to be clear... .the communication I am suggesting we work on  is the communication that you have 100% control over... .  What you say to her... . 

There was something said earlier where you seemed to indicate you are ok with her moving away... .and then said here that you weren't. 

Either stance is ok... .but... .FOR YOUR SAKE... .you need to figure out which stance you want to take... .and try to be consistent with it.

Saying something you don't mean to  possibly "help" her feelings... or spare her from bad feelings... .is not a good plan.

More later.

FF

[formflier]

  I see now how to suggest we get some though.

What is your plan?

Does your wife go to confession?


How are you doing on reading your lessons on bpdfamily?  What does "push pull" mean to you?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

There was something said earlier where you seemed to indicate you are ok with her moving away... .and then said here that you weren't. 

Either stance is ok... .but... .FOR YOUR SAKE... .you need to figure out which stance you want to take... .and try to be consistent with it.

Saying something you don't mean to  possibly "help" her feelings... or spare her from bad feelings... .is not a good plan.

It is also okay if you are confused about it for a bit.

I agree that you need to figure out how you feel about her moving away and try to find ways to communicate it with her in an honest manner. If you are not okay with her moving away, then you need to find a way to communicate this with her whether she likes it or not.

From what I am reading, it sounds like you are in a very confusing situation where her being gone is a bit of a relief but at the same time it is difficult because it makes it difficult to sort the marriage issues.

Would it be helpful if you sat down and did some more thinking about the values side of things? I know that you value your marriage for a host of reasons. A relationship takes two people. No matter how hard you try, it is not possible to do enough to compensate for what she isn't doing.

When I read the title of this thread and the first post, my first question was, "How can this be therapeutic?" It sounds like this was a separation that was thrust upon you without much warning and without any sort of limits or agreements or anything else. You have been thrust into a state of limbo that has no end in sight. Can you set some kind of limit on this so that after X date/time, you are going to do Y? Set that in motion without regard to what she is or isn't doing. During that time, you and the girls can continue to seek counseling and go on with your lives. It is going to take all of you some time to sort out all of the confusing feelings.

[formflier]

 

This is a long shot... and was a reason I asked if she would submit to church... .your answer makes it even a longer shot.

If you are talking to the priest where you live... .and she is talking to the priest where she lives... .there is a chance she will see that as "not quite counseling"... .since a priest is not a T. 

I would say the goal is to try to get some clear communication... .

I'm a fan of "help me understand... ."... .vice "why did you move away... "... .but that works better in person... .you don't have that.

Anyway... .I'm hoping a priest would be less triggering... .and might get her to open up a bit about her thinking on making the move... .

Again... .long... .long shot.

But anything that gets some communication going is good.

FF

[an0ught]

 Hi Dobzhansky,

I believe that TS can have real value, having seen it in a few cases here. It can be more or less managed in a structured way. But I don't think you are in a TS situation and I don't believe there is much sense in trying to retroactively fit that framework over what you experience. It takes two to tango. The way you describe is is that your wife sort of moved out and now is taking roots elsewhere. This is certainly not an easy situation to deal with  .

Communication is frequent, brief and insubstantial - usually initiated by me.

So conflict it sounds has taken a backseat. This is good. There is a continuous albeit weak communication link.

A first step would be to strengthen the communication link. Validation skills can help here a lot. I've seen that you tried S.E.T. in the past but that may be too much right now. The point is not to tell her facts. The point is to make her feel understood and more or maybe better - healthier - connected to you. And for you to gain a deeper understanding of her. Active listening is critical. Right now you are initiating communication and it would be good if she would too. When you are at that point you made a huge step. The intermediate step would be her talking more when you call her. To get her to that point she needs to feel respected, not judged and listened to.

Check out the validation workshops, listen to the Fruzzetti video at least twice (2*1h) and start practicing deliberate validation of negative emotions in your daily life with others. Building validation skills take practice, practice and practice and you have only little opportunity with your wife so use others around you. Reflect on how you react to negative messages from her side, what emotions on her side are truly behind it and how to validate them - staying in your words and character. You only control your side but that you control 100%. There is huge power in focus here.

I would be careful adding too many third parties actively into this as this can lead to triangulation. Anything beyond improving communication needs a better link to her and an understanding of what is important to her going forward. Not what she says - retirement - but what she truly values.

[formflier]

 

an0ught,

And others... .  I've been trying to think of best advice for this situation.

I'm interested in opinions on lessening the amount of communication initiated by Dobzhansky while he is really trying to soak in the lessons.

That will give him time to learn... .also will help reduced the feeling (if she feels it) of the wife of being chased... .possibly create something in her so she starts reaching out.  At which point in time he will have better skills... .and hopefully have more effective communication with her.

Thoughts? 

FF

[an0ught]

Hi Dobzhansky,

maybe I should explain more? Full disclosure: I've been in a BPD LDR crossing waters which broke up. I also had some longer break with a pwBPD and got together again. After a few years of major turmoil my relationship is fairly stable and I'm reasonable content on my side at the moment.

The choices faced here by members are often very hard and have real long term consequences. And the reason everyone finds themselves in this bind is that not enough real decisions were made in the recent past so when people find this board they often feel boxed in a corner. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. So there is some urgency to make changes but then these changes need to be understood and owned. Thus often the best choice is to do nothing different for a limited time and educate yourself through the LESSONS and equally important through discussions on the board.

The way I see it there are phases in how improvements happen. The main milestones are:

  1) conflict comes down from crazy to just distressing levels - you are there. Her moving out for better or worse reduced conflict. Others reduce conflict in this phase through avoiding invalidation and basic validation skills.

  2) respect is re-established. Boundaries/new rules/changes - you are not there. You lack healthy boundaries but distance lessens the need for them

  3) reconnect in deeper and healthier ways - re-bonding, higher level of validation skills.

  4) and they live happily ever after

Boundaries, Low Contact (LC), No Contact (NC) and TS are all great to break enmeshment - a state common in long term couples, especially co-dependent/BPD. Boundaries usually help a lot changing the conflict dynamic and are a major step toward re-establishing mutual respect. Boundaries strengthen the individual however they can weaken the bond between the partners. Boundaries are vital but then there is always the risk that centrifugal forces take over and people break up. This is not always a bad thing as when one commits to a boundary one decides what one truly values and what price one is willing to pay. While it is about boundaries in phase (2) validation is important to complement the boundary establishment and reduce break-up risk.

Each situation is different. Now your relationship is a very, very long term one and there are kids. So there is a strong connection - clouded with anger, resentment etc. but there nonetheless. However she is also 3000 miles away and has been there for a year. A particular challenge with LDRs is that when contact breaks it can be hard or impossible to re-establish. So I would be very careful to reduce communication. A typical goal of reducing communication would be reducing conflict and breaking enmeshment - due to her going away there has been big progress in your relationship over the past year on that front - communication is shallow but not constantly hostile. Having a somewhat reliable communication link in your situation is a real asset considering the physical distance.

The main tools we have at our disposal are boundaries (=rules for ourselves) and validation (=a stance of active listening, emotion and partner focused communication). They complement each other and members (and often their partner to a degree too) grow in their validation and boundary skills in every phase. I have a general rule of thumb - whenever I see a member stalling with progress I check whether there is a one-sided focus on boundaries or validation. Often a change of focus can help moving forward again - it also happened and sometimes still happens to me. Distance is a poor substitute for real healthy boundaries. But it is a working substitute in many situations especially at the beginning. The way I see it there has been progress on the boundary front - not voluntarily  , not planned - but real real, tangible results. To balance this I would focus right now more on building validation skills while trying to not upset communication patterns which may be an asset in the near future.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm interested in opinions on lessening the amount of communication initiated by Dobzhansky while he is really trying to soak in the lessons.

In order to lesson the communication initiated by him, the first step would be to start paying attention to current interaction trends. Who typically initiates communication? I seem to recall that there are daily texts. If those are initiated by Dobzhansky, then it should be to cut out the daily texts unless SHE decides to initiate.

That will give him time to learn... .also will help reduced the feeling (if she feels it) of the wife of being chased... .possibly create something in her so she starts reaching out.  At which point in time he will have better skills... .and hopefully have more effective communication with her.

I don't think it is important to think about how the wife feels in this. If she feels that she is being chased, she doesn't seem to be sharing that. Given the descriptions thus far, it seems that there is little if any kind of meaningful communication.

Unless she is willing to have a real conversation, I don't see anything changing without Dobzhansky leading the way. One of the questions that came to mind as I read about this situation is, "How in the heck can one learn better communication skills when talking to a wall?" I may have the wrong impression of the situation. My impression is that trying to communicate with the wife is a bit like trying to communicate with a wall.

[an0ught]

Hi VOC,

you seem doubtful when thinking about building validation skills without your partner:

"How in the heck can one learn better communication skills when talking to a wall?"

Of course there is no real substitute to facing a dragon and pronouncing a soothing validation spell which effectively masking your anxiety and desperately hoping to get the intonation right so it works according to the book.

But then there is your friend, the shopkeeper you meet, the policeman you encounter or your boss. You can work your way up there from friendly to more threatening situations. You may see a co-worker crying and have a choice - say something cheering up or something that reflects that you truly see the pain. No crying co-worker? There are plenty of new members who appreciate someone paying attention.

In LDRs communication can be planned to a degree so validation and even more important avoiding invalidation and JADE can be prepared to a degree. Validation is built on deeper understanding to reflection after communication through the lens of validation/invalidation/JADE can often reveal quite a bit that was hidden while talking thus preparing for the next round. But you are right - validation is a skill and needs to be build by practicing daily and stretching for the best results. Thankfully our partners are not the only ones we communicate with. Validation is the key connection skill and practicing this with others will help Dobzhansky beyond his relationship with his wife.

[Dobzhansky]

Communication and Opinion of Staying Where She Is - I agree completely with the idea that I can only control my communication.  I have been under threat of divorce so long and believed I was an unsuitable husband that I have worked really hard to control communication through manipulation and other codependent behaviors:  "If I say this she will say that and all will be ok."

This is related, I think, to what was said when she moved away... .  Initially it was all about how awful she was to move away and to say the things she did (I don't want to be a mom any more / I am leaving your father, not you (girls) / this job will only be for a school year, etc. etc. etc.)

She was very unstable on the phone and in person when confronted with the reality of having a husband and children and they had been abandoned.  In an effort to assuage/minimize, I came out with how I was OK with her moving there to help her mom care for my wife's grandmother (93 yrs and immobile).  I have a keen understanding how a stance like this can pose problems for anyone to understand, let alone upwBPD.

The difficulty here to my mind is there has been no communication / effort to maintain any relationships here on this end.  The last experience my kids have w my wife is one of FOG.  They do not trust being around my wife and neither do I due to lies told before and during departure and also lingering resentment/anger from uBPD behaviors.

What Is My Plan For Getting Guidance - I have none.  I am in a rural-ish location and have little access to such care as far as I can determine.  she is 3000 miles away and I am unclear as to how this might be accomplished.

She is deeply resistant to mental health care (went through as a teen) and we have spent the last 30 years "maintaining the status quo" - her words.  I was so isolated I thought this was normal and have spent time since her departure with functional couples getting my first glimpse of what normal can be. 

Does Wife Avail Herself of Confession - No.  I cannot remember the last time she went.  We were in the habit of attending weekly services regularly. 

Doing the lessons as time allows.  Finding these and reading "Essential Guide to BPD: Stop Walking on Eggshells"  VERY informative.  I have been particularly interested in the insights into pwBPD thinking.  I recently came upon a box containing ALL of her letters to me when we lived in different states while dating in college during our courtship.  I see many, many , many of the examples of BPD thought in the letters:  "I love love love love you, you sweet, kind, etc. X 1,000000!"

Push Pull = action/reaction communication between nons and pwBPD... .right?  Lessons suggest disengaging from this.  Using SET and stopping the conversation in appropriate manner if it turns negative.

I have not been "angry" with her moving - I have always tried to treat her with the utmost respect, but expecting the same in return.  I think dismay is a closer word that fits better.  There are natural consequences I have tried to emphasize, such as trying to explain why daughters are not eager to contact her on their own, changes made by daughters to their own lives (all healthy) and other household choices.  It is at these times she has tried to reassert herself in to our lives at which time she is reminded that she left and this is what we have done.

The issue of the distrust, sadness and anger created by her manner of departure and efforts to maintain relationships is going to come to a head soon.  She has asked about all of us visiting at Christmas.

Daughters have come down very hard on the "no" side of this.  Mom is welcome to come to us, but they don't want to go to her.  Bi-weekly therapist supports this stance.  They said they feel with her family we would have no way to "escape" if needed, due to wife's anger or just too many people, especially when lots of questions are directed at them about what is really going on with our family.  The family have the view my wife wants to believe and support - that this was all consensual and planned long ago.

Are my wanting her back and the relationship effort piece two separate things?  I think yes because we have to overcome the trust issue w lies and anger before we can consider her return.

As a result, when she restates her request for us to go to where she is - we will have to have the "We can't (instead of won't) come because it was suggested by our therapist that it was too soon for this.  The visit last Christmas was too soon and your daughters are doing very well.  Making them go through another visit will set them back".  I know spending Christmas with us is important to you.  Would you consider coming to see us?"  There is a challenge here also because the MIL is "clingy".  98% of her written and spoken communications end with "We love you, dear.  We wish you lived closer.  Looking forward to when you move here."  Very matriarchal structure in their family. 

Not looking forward to this conversation.  She will ask for "Why?" and for details and to bargain as MIL will exert pressure on wife to push this through.  I can always appeal to the professional opinion of the T, I guess.  Maybe the shock of this will generate some interest in talking about relationships in greater depth?  as i said before, when I ask W about if she has contact girls or if they have contacted her W and girls point fingers at one another:  "She never responds when I try"



As far as working on our relationship - I will likely have to get creative. 

[formflier]

Not looking forward to this conversation.  She will ask for "Why?" and for details and to bargain as MIL will exert pressure on wife to push this through.  I can always appeal to the professional opinion of the T, I guess.  Maybe the shock of this will generate some interest in talking about relationships in greater depth?  as i said before, when I ask W about if she has contact girls or if they have contacted her W and girls point fingers at one another:  "She never responds when I try"

Initial thought... .don't say it is because of T... .or because of anything else.

Give her your decision... .

Invite her back to MC or to sessions with the priest (MC is most likely much better) if she wants further details. 

Stop talking about it... .you have answered her question... .and given her a pathway to discuss the "why" the feelings... .the rest of it.

FF

[Dobzhansky]

The choices faced here by members are often very hard and have real long term consequences. And the reason everyone finds themselves in this bind is that not enough real decisions were made in the recent past so when people find this board they often feel boxed in a corner. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. So there is some urgency to make changes but then these changes need to be understood and owned. Thus often the best choice is to do nothing different for a limited time and educate yourself through the LESSONS and equally important through discussions on the board.

I think I have a tendency to want to avoid consequences (human).  The deep and far reach of these consequences are terrifying.  I have known and loved this woman since I was 18 years old.

I really wish I had thought well enough of myself to have been able to identify BPD behaviors as NOT OK when they first started.  I find myself in the act of staying (and the mindset) starting to detach emotionally from her so I can better weather the storms of her emotions.  Part of me fears this will make it easier to walk away if the opportunity presents itself.  Be assured I have no compunction about labeling myself as "codependent" and I find myself wanting to default to standard behaviors, then pulling back and calling up LESSONS learned before making a response.

The way I see it there are phases in how improvements happen. The main milestones are:

  1) conflict comes down from crazy to just distressing levels - you are there. Her moving out for better or worse reduced conflict. Others reduce conflict in this phase through avoiding invalidation and basic validation skills.

  2) respect is re-established. Boundaries/new rules/changes - you are not there. You lack healthy boundaries but distance lessens the need for them

  3) reconnect in deeper and healthier ways - re-bonding, higher level of validation skills.

  4) and they live happily ever after cool

Boundaries, Low Contact (LC), No Contact (NC) and TS are all great to break enmeshment - a state common in long term couples, especially co-dependent/BPD. Boundaries usually help a lot changing the conflict dynamic and are a major step toward re-establishing mutual respect. Boundaries strengthen the individual however they can weaken the bond between the partners. Boundaries are vital but then there is always the risk that centrifugal forces take over and people break up. This is not always a bad thing as when one commits to a boundary one decides what one truly values and what price one is willing to pay. While it is about boundaries in phase (2) validation is important to complement the boundary establishment and reduce break-up risk.

Appreciate very much your breaking things down like this.  It gives me hope to see the steps and think ahead (but not too soon) about what's coming.  I was thinking I was engulfed/enmeshed in part because we came together so early at age 18.  W and I really had no idea who we were ourselves, let alone each other. 

I can see how boundaries are important (been reading "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud) and I see how the enforcement of boundaries might precipitate a break up.  I mentioned above how in an effort to reduce the impact of what she says/does I have been detaching emotionally - also because of distance to be sure.  I'll be truthful in saying that I have imagined a situation in my head where she calls or arrives demanding a divorce.  It is not nearly so frightening now as it was then. 

She exclaimed once during a rage the only reason she had not yet left was she'd lose access to the girls.  A)  This has already happened (but W appears unaware of the full gravity) and B)  Is this the only reason she has hung on thus far?

Will continue moving thru lessons and posting w Qs and developments.  Thank you thank you thank you!

[formflier]

 

Have you read the boundaries book first? 

Best to read that first... .then read boundaries in marriage... .boundaries with kids.  Good books... .

Not necessarily written for pwBPD... .so... check tactics here... .before implementing.

Dude... .I was like you... .no clue about BPD... .and I'm a Christian guy... .that wants to "serve" his wife.  So... if I help her... .help "make it better"... .that's what I'm supposed to do... right? (wrong!)

Listen... .this is something to talk with your priest about... .pray about... .and get clear in your head. (non-religious types... .move along... )

1.  Are you responsible for your wife's sin?

2.  If your wife walks away from the marriage... what is your status in the church?

Focus on the first question for a while... .before the second.

Please let me know what they say... .what your belief is on this.

Then... we can figure out how to move forward with what you are responsible for.

FF

[Dobzhansky]

Have you read the boundaries book first? 

Best to read that first... .then read boundaries in marriage... .boundaries with kids.  Good books... .

Not necessarily written for pwBPD... .so... check tactics here... .before implementing.

Dude... .I was like you... .no clue about BPD... .and I'm a Christian guy... .that wants to "serve" his wife.  So... if I help her... .help "make it better"... .that's what I'm supposed to do... right? (wrong!)

Listen... .this is something to talk with your priest about... .pray about... .and get clear in your head. (non-religious types... .move along... )

1.  Are you responsible for your wife's sin?

2.  If your wife walks away from the marriage... what is your status in the church?

Focus on the first question for a while... .before the second.

Please let me know what they say... .what your belief is on this.

Then... we can figure out how to move forward with what you are responsible for.

I am pretty clear.  I am definitely not responsible for my wife's sin.  She is a free moral agent and it is up to her to accept or reject God's offer of salvation through Jesus.  It makes me wonder if her horrible self-opinion makes her feel unworthy regardless of the forgiveness and understanding that goes with the offer.

I try to follow (but fall short) Paul's admonition in Eph 5, 25.  Maybe this feeds in to the codependency.  I tried to serve through bkfst in bed on weekends, cooking on weekends in advance of the week, backrubs when asked, etc.  But also and more importantly through being emotionally available.  that fell to the wayside some years ago (2009?) after which attempts at emotional intimacy were rebuffed strenuously.

More later... .