SD10s frustration

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

SD10 doesn't usually talk negatively about her uBPDbm to us and we try really hard not to say negative things about uBPDbm to SD10. More often, we hear from uBPDbm that SD10 complains about us to her all the time. uBPDbm tries to paint this picture like SD10 hates us and hates coming over to our house and refuses to talk to us when she's at her mom's.

We were on vacation this week with SD10, and had a great time. The other night we were driving back, and it was time for SD10s nightly phone call to uBPDbm. She called and started complaining about how her mom looks at her phone "all the time". Her mom then said to SD10 that she was being nasty to her and she always does this when at her dad's and that just because we talk <poop> about her doesn't mean SD10 can. SD10 got upset by those comments and just flat out hung up the phone on her mom.

We told SD10 that it's very disrespectful to hang up the phone on people, so we made her call back. She did, mom continued, she hung up again, we made her call back again and at least say goodbye. I think this happened three more times until she finally said goodbye.

When SD10 got off the phone she was really upset. She NEVER does this, but this outpouring of bad feelings came out:

- She said she doesn't want to go back to her mom (right now we have 50/50 shared parenting)

- She wishes she could decide for herself where to live. She said when she’s 18 she’s going to move out and say “it’s not me, it’s you”

- She said that her mom doesn't care about her and only cares about money and boys. Her mom claims to have no money for things but then buys designer dresses for herself and spends money on dating sites and judges the boys only by looks and that’s why she’ll always be alone.

- She said her mom is always on the phone, even when they go do activities together

- She said her mom neglects SD10s health because they keep getting reminder cards for the dentist and uBPDbm won’t take her

- She thinks her mom is mentally ill and a psychopath, the reason being that she is always angry with everyone and blames everyone else for everything. She asked us if there was a mental illness for people who blame everything on everyone else all the time.

- She said she’s afraid one day that her mom will hurt her (I asked her to clarify, and she said basically she thinks one day her mom will hurt her during a rage)

I can’t remember off the top of my head anything else. DH and I have a hard time in a situation like this, we really don’t know what to say. We actually agree with everything SD10 said, but we don’t want to say that to SD10. We tried to validate her feelings. I think we ended up defending her mom a bit since the attacks were so harsh.

The next night SD10 called her mom, and uBPDbm was talking about buying her a bookbag and taking her on a trip and taking her to see her older sister (not DH’s, lives in another state, uBPDbm hasn’t seen her in 5 years). Making promises (probably empty) to get back into favor.

On one hand, I expected this to happen starting around this age. Children start to grow independent and can see their parents more objectively. On the other hand, it makes me sad that she thinks this way. We’re all stuck in this crummy situation and that three years of this poor child’s life has been chaos as we wait for the court process.

[Thunderstruck]

SD10 doesn't usually talk negatively about her uBPDbm to us and we try really hard not to say negative things about uBPDbm to SD10. More often, we hear from uBPDbm that SD10 complains about us to her all the time. uBPDbm tries to paint this picture like SD10 hates us and hates coming over to our house and refuses to talk to us when she's at her mom's.

We were on vacation this week with SD10, and had a great time. The other night we were driving back, and it was time for SD10s nightly phone call to uBPDbm. She called and started complaining about how her mom looks at her phone "all the time". Her mom then said to SD10 that she was being nasty to her and she always does this when at her dad's and that just because we talk <poop> about her doesn't mean SD10 can. SD10 got upset by those comments and just flat out hung up the phone on her mom.

We told SD10 that it's very disrespectful to hang up the phone on people, so we made her call back. She did, mom continued, she hung up again, we made her call back again and at least say goodbye. I think this happened three more times until she finally said goodbye.

When SD10 got off the phone she was really upset. She NEVER does this, but this outpouring of bad feelings came out:

- She said she doesn't want to go back to her mom (right now we have 50/50 shared parenting)

- She wishes she could decide for herself where to live. She said when she’s 18 she’s going to move out and say “it’s not me, it’s you”

- She said that her mom doesn't care about her and only cares about money and boys. Her mom claims to have no money for things but then buys designer dresses for herself and spends money on dating sites and judges the boys only by looks and that’s why she’ll always be alone.

- She said her mom is always on the phone, even when they go do activities together

- She said her mom neglects SD10s health because they keep getting reminder cards for the dentist and uBPDbm won’t take her

- She thinks her mom is mentally ill and a psychopath, the reason being that she is always angry with everyone and blames everyone else for everything. She asked us if there was a mental illness for people who blame everything on everyone else all the time.

- She said she’s afraid one day that her mom will hurt her (I asked her to clarify, and she said basically she thinks one day her mom will hurt her during a rage)

I can’t remember off the top of my head anything else. DH and I have a hard time in a situation like this, we really don’t know what to say. We actually agree with everything SD10 said, but we don’t want to say that to SD10. We tried to validate her feelings. I think we ended up defending her mom a bit since the attacks were so harsh.

The next night SD10 called her mom, and uBPDbm was talking about buying her a bookbag and taking her on a trip and taking her to see her older sister (not DH’s, lives in another state, uBPDbm hasn’t seen her in 5 years). Making promises (probably empty) to get back into favor.

On one hand, I expected this to happen starting around this age. Children start to grow independent and can see their parents more objectively. On the other hand, it makes me sad that she thinks this way. We’re all stuck in this crummy situation and that three years of this poor child’s life has been chaos as we wait for the court process.

[DreamGirl]

That's a lot for a ten year old to process through. I'm glad that she feels safe in being open and honest with you and that you're willing to help her work through it without getting caught up in the emotions of it all. Mom's not acting very mature, so your SD10 needs the help of the cooler heads.  

My middle stepdaughter, when she was younger, was the worst when it came to talking to her mom on the phone when she was at our house. She could be happy and playing and then when it came to call mom, she would almost act sad. I think she wanted to help in soothing mom and any "bad" feelings... .and mom always struggled with being separated from them. It's a tough burden to bear for a young kid being stuck having to be sad for mom and then being questioned why she was all of the sudden sad from dad... .Blech.

I often suggest that parents allow the kids to talk privately to the other parent. It allows the kid to be open and free to act or say whatever they need to say without being concerned of saying the wrong thing. It might have gone differently for your SD's conversation if Mama didn't think Dad was listening in and kiddo didn't think she needed to act a certain way because Dad was there.

I know you can't help it in the car, but I might have even pulled over to get a cup of coffee or something.

I also agree hanging up on mom is not a good idea. I might perhaps suggest a time out to calm down -- it's not helpful when both mom and kiddo are emotionally fired up yelling at each other. Even twenty minutes can work wonders in these situations.  

She's also a 10 year old with the emotional intelligence and problem solving skill set of a 10 year old. I vaguely remember being told how much my son hated me and that he would never speak to me again for not letting him spend the night at his best friend's house. So again, it's good that she was open, but you also have to logically see it through the eyes of an upset 10 year old.

Of her concerns, which of these are valid do you think? Which are black and white thinking (i.e. I NEVER want to go back to mom's. She's ALWAYS on the phone.)? Which might be overreactions?

- She said she doesn't want to go back to her mom (right now we have 50/50 shared parenting)

- She wishes she could decide for herself where to live. She said when she’s 18 she’s going to move out and say “it’s not me, it’s you”

- She said that her mom doesn't care about her and only cares about money and boys. Her mom claims to have no money for things but then buys designer dresses for herself and spends money on dating sites and judges the boys only by looks and that’s why she’ll always be alone.

- She said her mom is always on the phone, even when they go do activities together

- She said her mom neglects SD10s health because they keep getting reminder cards for the dentist and uBPDbm won’t take her

- She thinks her mom is mentally ill and a psychopath, the reason being that she is always angry with everyone and blames everyone else for everything. She asked us if there was a mental illness for people who blame everything on everyone else all the time.

- She said she’s afraid one day that her mom will hurt her (I asked her to clarify, and she said basically she thinks one day her mom will hurt her during a rage)

[ForeverDad]

SD10 doesn't usually talk negatively about her uBPDbm to us and we try really hard not to say negative things about uBPDbm to SD10... .The other night we were driving back, and it was time for SD10s nightly phone call to uBPDbm. She called and started complaining... .SD10 got upset by those comments and just flat out hung up the phone on her mom.

We told SD10 that it's very disrespectful to hang up the phone on people, so we made her call back. She did, mom continued, she hung up again, we made her call back again and at least say goodbye. I think this happened three more times until she finally said goodbye... .

We tried to validate her feelings. I think we ended up defending her mom a bit since the attacks were so harsh.

That's a lot for a ten year old to process through. I'm glad that she feels safe in being open and honest with you and that you're willing to help her work through it without getting caught up in the emotions of it all... .

I also agree hanging up on mom is not a good idea... .

Of her concerns, which of these are valid do you think?

I think there are a couple operative concepts here, the first that came to my mind was Validation vs Invalidation.  Would she have felt having to make the second and third calls were invalidating?  In my case, where my ex made/received far more calls than I did and after many years even the court concluded ex was 'disparaging father', I would have admonished my son but not make him call back, at least not multiple times.  I would have considered the various factors, whether ex was already getting more calls than I got, whether son had some basis to end the call, etc. 

I always told my son that I had to comply with the order, I didn't like them all but it was the reality I had to deal with and it's just the way things are.

I would like to explain my thoughts better but am having difficulty getting them expressed here.  Sorry.  It's just that in trying to be fair D probably felt that fairness was unfair to her.

The other is the expressed extremes.  Of course D10 was exasperated with her mother over multiple long-standing issues but helping her get better perspective, at whatever level is appropriate at her age, should help her hold onto the big picture.  She has a right to be frustrated but needs to learn the skills to balance it all so that her own life isn't dragged down too.

[david]

Our S16 became aware and talked to me about similar things at that age. I attributed it to a developmental stage at the time. I learned to listen and validate. That helped us both in very positive ways.

Our S12 handled things differently. He saw what happened to his older brother when he questioned mom about things. He didn't like what he saw so he avoided all confrontation with his mom at that age. He is now 12 and seems to pick his battles with his mom. He prefers avoiding confrontation with her since he views it as a useless endeavor. I tried to get him to talk to her but his response was, "you just don't understand, mom never listens to anybody." Sadly. I do understand. I used to worry for him but he doesn't avoid talking to me or anyone else I've noticed so it is not a general way of him dealing with people.

[Thunderstruck]

I think she was coming down off the "high" of being on vacation and just felt sad having to go back to the daily grind.

It probably was invalidating to make her keep calling back, but we also want to teach her that there are better ways to handle conflict with people than getting peeved off and hanging up on them. SD10 gets very emotional ( from her mom) and we are trying to teach her to control her own emotions in situations where she feels overwhelmed. It’s been baby steps….when she’s in the moment she doesn’t get it, but sometimes just afterward she will realize she overreacted and apologize.

When we talked to her, we tried to break down the issues to the core ones she was feeling. She’s brought up several times that her mom is "always" staring at her phone when they are together, and I think that really bothers SD10 (it would bother me too!) and makes SD10 feel unimportant. So one thing we suggested was instead of picking a fight about it, she could say something like "I love spending time with you but it would be more fun for us if we put away electronics and had fun together."

She has mentioned the dentist thing a few times and worries about missing an appointment. We set one up for her for this week (we were planning to take her before school starts anyway, we just were waiting on the CE report that has been “almost done” for 5 months now to see if we’d be getting full medical decision making). This will ease her mind about not being “taken care of”, but it won’t help with her feelings about her mom. uBPDbm really struggles with being consistent in life (with discipline, structure, activities, etc) and doesn’t pre-plan. I guess we could help her (by reminding her to set things up) but it would probably just work better if we handled the “boring” stuff like checkups and homework and let uBPDbm do the “fun” stuff with SD10 like shopping and movies. That seems to be when their relationship is best.

DH was worried that SD10 picked up the “mental illness” and “psychopath” words from us. Did we slip and accidentally say it? Did she overhear our personal conversations to each other? (those were his thoughts). I reminded him that uBPDbm projects a LOT and talks badly about DH to SD10, so SD10 could have picked up the words from her mom and just reverse attributed them. She could have heard the words anywhere and attributed them to her mom. It was very eye-opening that she started to see how her mom has behaviors that aren’t normal, that’s a big change that seems to be coming with “growing up”. We are REALLY careful not to say anything negative about uBPDbm to SD10 because she gets very defensive. We told SD10 that we aren’t psychologists and couldn’t/wouldn’t diagnose if she has a mental illness or is a psychopath. Then we talked about how those behaviors and feelings (her mom’s blaming and anger) belong to uBPDbm…there is nothing we can do to avoid causing it, and there is nothing we can do to fix it. It’s not our job to change other people, we can only control our own behaviors and feelings. I think it got a little too complicated for us to try to talk to her about.

One thing that worried me was that she feared her mom would hurt her in a rage. A few years ago we gave her An Umbrella for Alex to read. I wish there was something geared toward slightly older kids.

(I should clarify... .I'm not worried that it'll actually happen, I'm worried that SD10 has that fear).

[DreamGirl]

Did you say books?

BOOKS FOR KIDS AND ADOLESCENTS:

Book Review: Umbrella for Alex

Emotionally abused children grow up with significantly altered perceptions so that they "see" behaviors—their own and others'—through a filter of distortion. Many emotionally abused children engage in a lifelong drive for the approval (which they translate as "love" of others. So eager are they for love—and so convinced that they don't deserve it—that they are prime candidates for abuse within intimate relationships.   An Umbrella for Alex tells the story of how a young boy learns to understand and cope with his mother’s BPD illness.  Written to be read with a therapist or parent, the book reassures affected children that they did not cause and are not responsible for a BPD parent’s volatile behavior. Read more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56239.0

Book Review: Sometimes My Mommy Gets Angry

Some mornings, Annie's mother's smiles are as bright as sunshine as she makes pancakes for breakfast and helps Annie get ready for school. But other days, her mother doesn't smile at all and gets very angry. Those days Annie has to be a big girl and make her own breakfast, and even put herself to bed at night. But Annie's grandma helps her remember what to do when her mommy isn't well, and her silly friends are there to cheer her up. And no matter what, Annie knows that even when Mommy is angry on the outside, on the inside she never stops loving her.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=186318.0

Book Review: The Weather House: Living with a Parent with Borderline Personality Disorder

This is an illustrated book for school-aged children that provides "clinically sound" and age-appropriate clear answers to frequently asked questions about the borderline personality disorder of a parent and how to cope with the situation. The book uses analogies of weather patterns to describe two days in the chaotic life of David and Mary. Psychoeducational comments are provided throughout the book by a “weather wiz” who explains the mother’s sometimes strange behaviors that can be challenging to comprehend. This book can help teach children to take some distance, to better understand what is happening at home and how not to feel responsible for their parents’ "stormy" moods.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=223218.0

Book Review: In My Corner of the Moon

In My Corner On the Moon is intended for children and adolescents who have experienced some form of trauma. Narrated by 12-year-old Abigail, the book is written in a straightforward but gentle style and has a strong psycho-educational component. The idea is to normalize the response that many children have to overwhelming events in their lives. Through Abigail’s story, trauma is put into simple terms that kids can understand and it’s done without delving into details of her own or any specific trauma, but focusing instead on responses to trauma and the healing process that follows. Interactive questions at the end of each page encourage discussion among children and the trusted adults in their lives.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=209751.0

Book Review: When Parents Have Problems: A Book for Teens and Older Children With an Abusive, Alcoholic, or Mentally Ill Parent

This book is written with the idea that intelligent children can use sound ideas to improve their lives, either on their own or with the help of adults. The author helps the reader to be realistic about the sources of a problem, particularly if they are the results of a parent's difficulties. The text covers the kinds of problems that a parent's troubles can cause and offers ideas on how to deal constructively with the challenges. Topics included are mistreatment, selfishness, when parents are in pain, when parents cause pain, big time feelings, troubled parents and ordinary teen life, scapegoating, power struggles, why parents have problems, and getting professional help.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=149775.0

[Sunfl0wer]

Excuse me for chiming in late.  I had a thought that may be helpful...

It probably was invalidating to make her keep calling back, but we also want to teach her that there are better ways to handle conflict with people than getting peeved off and hanging up on them.

As I was processing some of the thread... .I see so many valid great points.  I can see how "allowing" her to not hang up can be seen as not healthy, however, then I originally thought it seems sucky to force her into a toxic dynamic with little escape.  Kinda a catch 22 of sorts.  Not wanting to "force" her and not wanting her to "avoid" responsibility.

So what if instead of forcing her to call right back... .

You use that as an opportunity to teach her boundary setting.

Take a ten minute "time out" to have a discussion with her.

Ask, why did you hang up?

Listen to her.

So if she says, " Mom was going on about xyz again, and that just upsets me."

You, "other than hanging up, what are some other things you could do?"

Following some "empowering" ideas, ask her if she thinks she can call mom back in ten minutes.  "It is a good idea to give yourself emotional space when feeling triggered."(notice I didn't say feeling triggered by mom... .the focus is on her, her experience)  "How many minutes do you think you need before you can call her back tonight?"

She may need to learn some catch phrases:

This is too much mom, let's talk about my day instead.

I'd like to say goodbye on a good note.

This is upsetting me mom, I still have homework to do tonight, Can we change the topic?, or I'll have to call you back when all my homework is done.

Better than hanging up:  Talking about xyz, upsets me, I will have to go now.  I'll talk to you tomorrow mom.

Can you use this as an opportunity to empower her to maintain a certain amount of contact with a difficult person vs avoid and escape it?  Teaching her to identify when she feels triggered and ways to maintain present with the interaction just a bit, then deciding on what is "too much" and boundary enforcement enters the scene?

We will all have difficult people to deal with at work, school, ect.

It is probably a good idea that she not just "cut off" from people who are a challenge, but learn some extra skills to manage herself better.  It sounds like she is going to need to learn these skills faster than the avg 10yr old.

[Turkish]

It would be good to preview any books that you share with kids. I downloaded An Umbrella For Alex. While it doesn't mention BPD in the story, it does in the afterward, with links to resources. Given that S5 is just now coming of reading age, it's not an issue. Still, I locked the book out from the kids' account on my tablet so he can't access it. My Ex is clinically diagnosed with only depression. I could talk about that with the kids and be protected legally. Attributing undiagnosed PDs could get us into trouble.

Even with the depression dX, I'd probably talk to my Ex first if it became an issue, to encourage her to talk to the kids as I had her come out to her family about her dX 4 years ago. Her anger is always there, however. It might be better to take some lessons from the books if they mention BPD, rather than having the kids read them if they have an undiagnosed parent.

Of course, some older kids may get to the point to which they figure out enough for themselves. As always, I keep in mind, "what's age-appropriate?"

[Thunderstruck]

Those are great book suggestions Dreamgirl! The Weather House looks like it would really fit, but I was thinking the same thing that Turkish mentioned... .SD10s mom doesn't have a diagnosis and I'm not qualified to diagnose her. I'm hoping that the CE report will mention that she has BPD-like traits but I know that more often CEs don't diagnose either.

Side note, I have a copy of "Stop Walking on Eggshells" on our bookcase. SD10 just looked at the title (didn't pick up the book or see anything about what it's about) and said "That's like my mom, I'm always walking on eggshells around her." 

Sunfl0wer, I really like your suggestion! When she is over-emotional and in meltdown mode we often say to her: Ok, you didn't want to do something or got frustrated or etc and had an epic meltdown, screaming and crying and saying how you hate us. Is that an appropriate reaction? How should you have handled it?

I think since her conversations with her mom usually go really smoothly that we just got caught off-guard. She acts out with us far more than she does with uBPDbm (to our knowledge), probably because we set and enforce rules and discipline and she doesn't like that.   uBPDbm lately has given SD10 permission to hang up on DH if he tries calling, so my first thought was to squash that behavior (I just flash forward to a few years down the road to when she's a willful teenager... .aaack!).