Validation?

[ptilda]

I'm thinking uBPDh is reaching out looking to see if I'm going to make the right decisions on how to respond. He filed for divorce and then started reaching out (after weeks of ST) to friends and family telling them he didn't want the divorce but didn't see another way. So I reached out and here's the full exchange:

Me yesterday: "[his nickname], I understand that it looks like divorce is the only option available, and I can understand that you're making the best choice you can see. I feel very sad about how our relationship has ended up, and want to see some things change, but I love you so much and don't want to see you make a decision that will cause you even more hurt.

I believe that divorce is the wrong thing for us and that our love is strong enough to get through this. If you are willing to give some time for us to get some counseling so we can work together to repair our marriage and move forward from the mistakes we made, I would like to take slow steps towards that with you. However, if you feel you must go forward with the divorce, I will be heartbroken, but I will not fight you on it."

Him 42 minutes ago:

"[my nickname] I'm sadly have to do it even though my heart is broken because I've been exposed to a lot of dangers. You said "it will cause me more hurts"? If yes I'll accept it too cause in my honesty I tried everything I could so we should not have arrived at this point now you didn't give me any choice to keep my promise. Hurt or not you had hurting me more than anything when I thought you were my everything. It's a hard decision  cause I still love you but as a lonely guy I have to protect myself. So let's move forward but I'll always love you."

Me: "[his nickname], can we meet?"

Him: "It's not safe for me to meet you since you came in the middle of the night fight against me while I only tried to to out as the police told me and you shared stuff said I did this or that to you."

Me: "You are my everything, and I will take every action to learn to respond well to you, and ask you to do the same.

I will meet you on the roof. There are cameras and people will be there. I'll bring your mail to you. They will lock the door at 11pm so we have to be up there before that time if we want to get in."

Me (after delay and indication he was writing and erasing for several minutes): "[his name], if you're not ready, that's ok. I don't want to pressure you."

Him: "[my nickname] I already tried them I didn't even have to answer your messages. Then no I'm a little weak throughout you cause I love you and you did things which weren't in my favor. You put me in danger that's why can't do that"

Him: "Really, ready for what?"

I have not responded. He has been consistently accusing me of crazy things. Everything is my fault (I called the police, not his fault for beating me, in his mind, etc).

It seems like this is an ideal place to validate to start breaking into the defenses and see what happens. Is there a way you can see to validate his feelings here? Mentioning that I am happy how he has worked hard since he's been here (in the US, he came in January)? Validating his feelings of weakness for me? That doesn't sound right. Please advise.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sweetheart]

Hi ptilda,

You - I can hear you feel scared and worried, that must be so difficult for you. I understand why you're nervous about meeting me, given how you feel about what's happened. What might help you feel safer about meeting me ?   


On a separate note ptilda your SO doesn't sound very well in his texts responses to you, is he predisposed to psychosis/paranoia when dysregulated?

Are his fears real?

Has there been physical abuse between you, because if there has been then have you considered a Safety Plan if you do meet up with him?

[vortex of confusion]

I found myself getting confused about the exchange that you had.

Did he hit you or did you hit him? It sounds like the police were involved.

I wasn't sure if he was afraid that you would call the police on him or if he was afraid that you would be violent with him.

Also, a lot of times, saying things like "I love you so much" can feel very invalidating because it flies in the face of what he/she believes is true. If you say  "I love you" and he feels like you hate him and are out to get him, then the "I love you" invalidates the stuff that he is feeling.

You state: "You are my everything." It sounds sweet and romantic and some people like that. I am going to challenge you to think about saying things like that. Things like that can feel very invalidating when that is nowhere close to what he is feeling. As a side note, I don't think it is healthy to have a partner that you see as your everything. It sounds like you are very enmeshed. Are there things that you can do work on yourself so that you aren't as enmeshed with him?

Instead of validating his feelings, would it be easier to NOT invalidate his feelings? Validation can sometimes get tricky when emotions are running high.

[sweetheart]

Hi again ptilda,

I see you are posting on Legal, so I had a read... .

With regards to the above advice from me, I have some niggling concerns about your h not feeling safe and believing that you have hurt him. I think until his responses to you are more neutral in tone, it might be hard not to trigger him again.

You can validate his feelings of fear and his worries about what has happened, but I am concerned that he might hear in your validation that you caused him to feel like he does because he believes you attacked him and threatened his life.

I understand that he is pursuing a divorce and that you do not want to, but he still sounds very emotionally fragile in his texts. I think taking things slow, allowing him to dictate the pace so he feels safe sounds very crucial to his emotional well being at the moment.

I'm sorry if my posts are a bit contradictory or confusing, I should have read the back story  

[ptilda]

I understand this is confusing and quite involved. Keeping in mind that English is my husband's fifth langauge, there is some lost in translation there.

He hit me. I was cornered and getting repeatedly hit in the neck and throat and after a half dozen good hits that had me bruised for almost 3 weeks, I punched him once in the face and ran to wake my niece (an adult), and when I was speaking with her he came behind me and started punching me in my ear, back of my head, and back. I grabbed my phone and called the police. That was the one and only time it got to that point. Since then He claims I beat him that time (claims he never touched me), once when I tried to hug him (prior to my knowledge of BPD I did a lot of things that I thought he would be able to evaluate logically, and those things inevitably made the situation worse), once I exploded at him while driving him to a game he was refereeing (he had reduced our relationship to him telling me what I would do for him and forbidding me from asking any questions or speaking, and I freaked out and screamed and hit him on his leg and chest about four times before pulling onto the off-ramp, and to the shoulder before breaking into sobbing... .he tells everyone I risked his life because I stopped suddenly, but I pulled over before doing so, and even though I was upset, I did not endanger him or myself), and the last time when I went to lay next to him (again before I knew about BPD and at the recommendation of his friends and family) and touched his shoulder which woke him up... .that was the 1:00am event he speaks of. I barely touched him, but have learned that when he is triggered, any physical contact is "beating."

There is an extremely real probability of some Post-Traumatic Stress resulting from the 2010 earthquake where he lost his first wife and infant son, and worked with rescue efforts while looking for them... .never found them. It would, in fact, be amazing if he didn't have any stress from that.

I'm learning to live in this looking-glass world of BPD, where loving someone is manipulative and harmful. It's exhausting really. So I should leave him alone? Believe it or not, these texts are WAY more subdued than the previous 3 months of communication between us (in the instances when there was any communication at all).

Thanks for the input. I'm slowly putting pieces together so that I can at least have somewhat of a grasp on this whole matter.

[ptilda]

So I'm reading the Eggshells book (as well as others) and am on Chapter 7. I found a hypothetical response on pg 147-8 that I ripped off and applied. Sent this as a response to the previous thread. We'll see how he responds:

"[his name], I know that you are very hurt and angry about the emotional ways that I reacted to you. I can try to make up for it by saying I'm sorry and taking the necessary steps to help assure that I respond to you calmly in the future, which I've done and continue to do. And I can point out the times I have reacted with understanding and forgiveness and kindness and have served you happily. And I can tell you that I do love you--which I do, very much. That's all I can do.

I can't change the past. I can't make you believe that I love you. I can't make you see the things I've done for you, if you choose not to look at them. I know it hurts and you're mad, and I wish I could make it all better for you. The way I see things, you need to step in here and help yourself. You can choose to keep thinking these things about me, or you can choose to try to accept my accept my apology, and see where we can go from here. I can't do it for you. Maybe with my support you can do it for yourself."

[formflier]

 

Ptilda,

Keep reading the lessons on here about validation.

My first reaction after reading this is to tone the I love yous and "everythings" down... .I really think those can be invalidating.

Much better to wait until he brings up loving you... .and then possibly respond in like fashion.

FF

[ptilda]

Ptilda,

Keep reading the lessons on here about validation.

My first reaction after reading this is to tone the I love yous and "everythings" down... .I really think those can be invalidating.

Much better to wait until he brings up loving you... .and then possibly respond in like fashion.

FF

He has been saying he loves me. Every interaction. Over and over. Here's the latest:

"What are you looking for? I'm mostly hurt not angry. Emotional reaction from what I've done? What did I do? Met your EX in the house first day I came in [our state] when I didn't say a word and still love you and stay[my long-time friend who I dated over a decade ago and who has Aspergers and problems understanding limits showed up to greet him the first night he came home]?, call police for me [because he hit me] telling lies I hit you to keep me under pressure[he still claims this is a lie even though he told numerous people he did it, we have witnesses, and the police saw my injuries]? Beat me in your car when I didn't want to talk [ST for weeks and he would only speak when he insisted, and gave no response for day after day about us... .before I knew about BPD, I hit him on his leg while I was driving... .certainly not "beating" him]? Belittling me in everything such as,church, schools, bank, home, street[it was actually he who does this nonstop]? Let your niece insulted me talked about my story which she thought she knows through you[my 15-year-old niece saw I was upset and asked him why he doesn't treat me better, now he says I turned my family against him after he fought with a kid]? Come in the middle of night while I was sleeping to fight with me [I touched his shoulder and was going to lay next to him]? Make up things so people will think you are right[again, this is him, not me]? I never asked you to change the past and I do know you love me but why you put my life in danger socially, physically, emotionally even economically[seriously? this is insane! I'm in worse debt from him than I've ever been before]? You even said I'm crazy[mistake I made in reacting and before I knew about BPD, just knew something was very wrong], I always throw away people who love me [I did say this because it's what he told me more than once], like my sister while you didn't know if she had mental disabilities [I actually did know, but he cut her out of his life like he does with anyone who doesn't make life easy for him], and when told you you don't know what you talking about you said yeah my sister and I are crazy. What did you do for me [one of the most infuriating statements he's made, but I know I can't respond]? If only because of you my life is miserable. I accepted your apology but I can't desired to live sorrows under love. Again I'll always love you but I have you save myself from this situation no matter what it takes."

Commentary in brackets. I'm working out a response with my therapist friend.

Knowing my husband as I do, he is beginning to open up. He is reaching and he is being sentimental. This is a good thing. He's also taking a long time and thinking through his responses. It's going to take a while, of course, but I need to keep him communicating as long as he is willing and somewhat calm.

[ptilda]

Here's an initial response I'm working out... .haven't sent it yet:

"[his name], I understand that you feel that I did those things, but I remember the story very differently. It is not beneficial for me to respond to the accusations because we simply seem to have had very different experiences and memories. However, I am unwilling to take more than half the responsibility for the trouble or for finding the solution. This is a situation we both entered into. Both of us share responsibility.

[formflier]

 

Please consider no response.

Or... ."Thank you for sharing... ."

"thank you for being open about your feelings... .we have a lot to discuss in person... "

DO NOT debate facts!  feelings... .versions of events... .

DO NOT agree with anything that you don't agree with... .but you don't have to tell him you don't (I used to get caught up in thinking I was responsible for setting things right... .BAD ... .BAD... .BAD)

Try to send us a statement that shows you heard him... .(so not blowing him off)... .and that you look forward to more conversation.

Do not divide up responsibility... .or discuss it (right now)

FF

[babyducks]

I am solidly in agreement with formflier.   This is not the time to discuss facts, versions of events, who is responsible for what.   I would strongly suggest you continue to let emotions settle.

I would also like to suggest that when your husband says

I do know you love me but why you put my life in danger socially, physically, emotionally even economically... .  ... .Again I'll always love you but I have you save myself from this situation no matter what it takes."

that he is not accusing you of crazy things.   He is articulating his feelings in the only emotional language he has.

The relationship he has with you is so scary right now, so overwhelming it FEELS to him like it endangers his very life.

At some level he recognizes that things are out of control, he understands it imperfectly, but he does understand being out of control is very dangerous for him.   please continue to take that seriously.

[ptilda]

Here's what I sent to him:

"[his name], I understand that you feel that I did those things, but I remember the story very differently. It is not beneficial for me to respond to the accusations because we simply seem to have had very different experiences and memories. However, I am unwilling to take more than half the responsibility for the trouble or for finding the solution. This is a situation we both entered into. Both of us share responsibility.

No marriage goes without trouble, and our troubles are not even the worst of troubles. The only thing that will keep us from being together is if we are unwilling to take the right action. I am willing, and I would like for you to take that step with me."


It is important to remember that while BPs are similar in many ways, they are all individuals. I know my husband extremely well. I ask to input and advice, but know him and where is is going with something. I know what he is alluding to when he makes claims. It's a continuing conversation with him and all parts need to be taken in context along with the past few months.

The advice I get here is invaluable, but sometimes advice here and advice in books and advice from the therapist and advice from . . . are contradictory. My job is to evaluate everything and determine the best possible response. Right now my husband is reaching out. He's scared. he feels trapped and he NEEDS me to be present without discussing facts. I am not discussing facts and that is exactly what I said in my response. But it is necessary for me to place a boundary on what level of responsibility I am willing to accept. Telling him that I am unwilling to accept more than 50% of the responsibility is not only directly from the "Eggshells" book, but it is important knowing him since it allows him to see that I AM willing to share responsibility.

My husband is a loving, kind, intelligent man. He does not desire to hurt me, but he has and so he desperately needs to believe that hurt was my fault.

Again, thanks for the continuing advice and support. Remember, all of our BPs are individuals with some shared traits.

[KateCat]

ptilda,

Your descriptions of your husband's beliefs and behavior make me wonder if he might not be more paranoid/psychotic than BPD. (Just wondering if a bit of wishful thinking is contributing to your continued attempts to convince him of . . . well, anything right at this moment.)

Trying to impose your presence or perspective on him just now sounds unwise to me.

My husband is diagnosed paranoid-schizophrenic, but I'm not saying yours is. Is it possible he has entered into a transient state of psychosis due to major depression? I'm hoping for you that he finds his way to some mental health resources and that you can patiently bide your time on the sidelines for a bit.  

Stay safe

ADDED: Oh, something I missed: Where is your husband residing at this time? With relatives? Can they seek help for him or provide you with updates on his condition so that you are not out of the loop entirely?

[ptilda]

ptilda,

Your descriptions of your husband's beliefs and behavior make me wonder if he might not be more paranoid/psychotic than BPD. (Just wondering if a bit of wishful thinking is contributing to your continued attempts to convince him of . . . well, anything right at this moment.)

Trying to impose your presence or perspective on him just now sounds unwise to me.

My husband is diagnosed paranoid-schizophrenic, but I'm not saying yours is. Is it possible he has entered into a transient state of psychosis due to major depression? I'm hoping for you that he finds his way to some mental health resources and that you can patiently bide your time on the sidelines for a bit.  

Stay safe

ADDED: Oh, something I missed: Where is your husband residing at this time? With relatives? Can they seek help for him or provide you with updates on his condition so that you are not out of the loop entirely?

There is almost certainly some PTSD (paranoia) here as well, but H falls acutely into the parameters for BPD. One thing that must be taken into consideration are the cultural differences. My husband lived in Haiti his entire life and the way his BPD acts differs largely because of cultural issues. For example, he makes no attempt at the "normal" methods of self-harm (cutting, etc) because these things are looked at in a different way (not cries for help, but character flaws that would have shunned him). What he does for self-harm is to go days without eating (hunger in Haiti is a very real thing that receives huge amounts of sympathy) and taking care of his appearance (another sign of being destitute in Haiti) as well as putting others in a position to cause him emotional and physical harm (such as picking fights, etc).

I don't feel that I am not "imposing my presence or perspective" on him. I'm simply responding to his contacts with me, based on the advice given, and it's working. At this point, there are two options for our relationship: we either make strides towards repairing it fairly quickly, or he gets deported (and will never be allowed back). There's no in between. I really have nothing to lose.

On the other hand, he has been reaching out to my friends and family, telling them that he wants to be with me but doesn't know how. He has not told me this directly, but is telling them. To me this indicates that he needs to start seeing the gray areas of how we can get help with our relationship. One of the recent changes is that he talks about how much he loves me (hence his hurt at the relationship ending)... .for some time he swore he could never love me. By me stating that I am unwilling to take more than half the responsibility, I am letting him know that I share responsibility with him. He is a very smart guy and knows (in his mind) that it is unreasonable to blame one person for everything. This also allows him to see that I do not require him to take more than half the responsibility.

Before coming to the conclusion of BPD, I literally looked at every other possible diagnosis I could think of. I read books on general mental health issues, as well as those specifically on PTSD (again, he lost his wife and infant in the 2010 earthquake and worked to save others while looking for them, but never found them... .that will mess anyone up... .but he had most of these issues before that). This has been determined not only through careful consideration, but also significant council by professional therapists, some of whom spoke with him directly and others who have evaluated our interactions.

Just to clarify, my contact with H is limited to only responding simply to his messages. I do not speak to him on the phone (that is a boundary I have established because I've found that it is necessary to either keep things written to assure that I am able to really think through and edit well, and because voice-to-voice conversations really need a third party at this point). I don't see him or attempt to see him.

My husband is residing with another Haitian in the area. I don't know who it is, but I know people who are in contact with him. He has no family here or friends who knew him prior to this year, and most of the Haitian community knows me well and respects me (I've been friends with them and playing in the local Haitian band for several years). They are able to keep me updated if needed, and they do even when I don't ask. His cousins are quite close with him as well, and some of his friends in Haiti keep in contact with him and inform me of how he's doing. I'm as much in the loop as I need to be.

Again, the goal here is for him to understand that there is an "out." I mentioned in a much earlier post here that in Haiti, "fou" is the worst thing you can call someone... .it means "insane" and the cultural issues with mental illness go very deep. On top of that, my husband's sister suffers from mental illness and he is extremely sensitive to this matter. There is no understanding of receiving support from therapy, only torment and pain. These are cultural obstacles on top of the regular BPD issues.

[KateCat]

My husband is residing with another Haitian in the area. I don't know who it is, but I know people who are in contact with him. He has no family here or friends who knew him prior to this year, and most of the Haitian community knows me well and respects me (I've been friends with them and playing in the local Haitian band for several years). They are able to keep me updated if needed, and they do even when I don't ask. His cousins are quite close with him as well, and some of his friends in Haiti keep in contact with him and inform me of how he's doing. I'm as much in the loop as I need to be.

Excellent.