Vacation blues...

[Ceruleanblue]

I'd asked BPDh to take last Thursday and Friday off. He claims he didn't hear me mention Thursday, and he also didn't request Friday. I know this was deliberate, because we talked about it when he said he didn't hear me ask him to take Thursday. We wrapped up that conversation by him saying he'd ask for Friday. Well, he came home Thursday, and told me he hadn't. I didn't react badly, and I feel I handled it well, but I know he did it to be crappy. He also claimed he couldn't find ANY motels with openings.

Well, I went to work harder, and made calls and I found several places we could stay. I'd have done so sooner, but he likes to make plans, I think so he feels in control. Well, I woke him and asked him if it was okay to book the room. He agreed, and the next morning, he chose to call in sick. Yep.

I thought we had a lovely time, and when he got grumpy(he has huge mood swings), I ignored it. After two days together though, he drops the bomb that he'd been bored. Oh, and he basically stated that "we've been together two whole days" and he made it sound like that was awful for him. What's weird, is he did this when I'd let HIM choose if we stayed in the room, or went out Saturday night(he chose to stay in the motel room, and watch tv). Other than asking to make a few stops, I pretty much let him choose what we did, period.

He clearly was wanting a fight, so I chose to leave. I was gone, walking the ground, and sitting in the car for about an hour to an hour and a half. I figured that was time for him to cool down, and I spent time looking up things to do in the area. When I went back to the room, he asked me to sit down, and he apologized.

The next day however, he said the same thing again that he'd apologized for. He chose to come home early, and I didn't argue. Maybe he wanted a fight? He didn't get one. He later apologized again, and said he realized he needs to really work on himself, and that he has an issue with sabotaging things, and not being grateful for what he has. Oh, and I think he also said he needs to work on his negativity.

Are vacations typically a time for stress? I'm not sure how to ensure the next trip we take has better results.

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[Daniell85]

If he deliberately chose not to ask for the days off at work, and he really was doing it to thwart you, then probably he was unhappy to go on the mini vacation. Felt pushed into it, had resentment, wanted to start fights with you.

You don't sound like you had a good time either. I wonder what he would do if you asked him to go on a weekend getaway, and he tried to get out of it... .and you went somewhere nice by your own self. Like go spend the weekend with your family and your son? Or off on a little getaway in another city/town and have some shopping and self pampering?

This is healthy for you in taking care of yourself, respectful to his "wants".

I wouldn't stop asking the guy, but I also wouldn't deprive my own self because he wants to be miserable and a sour puss.

Also, under the conditions you were in on your little vacation with him, I think you handled it really well. In the face of him being negative minded, in your intentional absence and leaving him to sort his feelings and thoughts, he does appear to come to a few positive conclusions ( that is realizations about his thoughts and behavior that are troublesome) on his own and show some accountability.

[Ceruleanblue]

I'd actually asked my son to come along on the mini vacation, but he didn't want to because he was sore from football practice. I actually had a good time, and am getting a lot better at ignoring his moods. I do wish he could have enjoyed it more, but I'm not sure what that involves. He had a business trip last year the Las Vegas, and he sent me tons of pictures of him having  a great time. He actually left me not long after that trip.

I may plan a solo trip, and ask my kids along. It's just a matter of my daughter getting time off work, and talking my son into it. I'm thinking of renting a cabin on a small lake and just relaxing. I'd actually much rather have BPDh with me, because I love doing things together, but I need to not let him keep me from doing things I enjoy.

I wouldn't go on a trip with him, and do thing to ruin it for him, which is sort of what it feels like he tried to do. At least he didn't succeed

[Notwendy]

Vacations are typically stressful, even if my H wants to go and is looking forward to it. Being in an unfamiliar setting is distressing as there is a loss of control and expectations. Being cooped up in a hotel room can be perilous. It seems as if I am "captive" he is more likely to get moody and angry at me.

Vacations have led to him giving me the ST almost the entire time ( no more as they don't work) or getting ideas and "rules" that we have to follow. I remember one of them, with the kids, where he decided that "on vacation we have sex every night". While some may think what is the problem with that, it is that this rule is set in stone, so if by chance one night I am tired, or one of the kids gets up sick, to him, the rule is broken, the vacation is ruined and there will be a meltdown. It is a black and white situation- sex every night or to him, or else any sex didn't happen and all is ruined.

The other consideration is that he decides these rules on his own, without asking me, and then declares them to me, but sometimes he doesn't even tell me what he is thinking. Then, if I don't comply with the rule, I have done something that he considers to be very hurtful to him.  Sometimes, I don't even know what he is thinking about until I inevitably break whatever rule he decided on.

A while back, on the last night of vacation we had to rush back to the hotel late at night, get packed, sleep a few hours and then get up again to catch an early plane. Out of the blue he said " On the last night of vacation, we have to have sex".  This was  a"rule" he decided on. It didn't consider the circumstance or the fact that we had had sex not too long before that, but I have said before, he doesn't remember in the moment. This time, I felt it was a set up for a rage. Saying anything would have been JADE. I said nothing and he finally said - well we need to pack and get up early.

We can have a good time, but I find myself feeling as if the other shoe could drop on vacations. I think the best solution is to not be reactive and hold on to my boundaries.

[Cloudy Days]

The few vacations I have taken with my husband have not been fun. We went to California for 11 days and the entire time was explosion after explosion. He would be ok all day and appear to be having fun, then something would happen and he would flip his lid. This was with his mother and nephew around. We actually went to Disney and man, was it not the happiest place on earth. We had a great time all day long. His mom got tired and needed to sit down and disappeared on us at Disney while we were shopping. He flipped out and spent the next 4 hours being a jerk. I ended up leaving the hotel room with only my socks. The next night we were suppose to have dinner with his brother and they got into a fight (they are very similar people) and we ended up leaving 3 days early because of it.

What is funny, now my husband only remembers good things about that trip and he talks about it all the time saying he wants to go back. Almost seems like he wants a do over.

[Notwendy]

Cloudy Days- I know it isn't funny but I cracked up at your post because these sorts of things have happened to us on vacations. I would get upset about them, and my H later would reply " well it wasn't all bad was it? " No, of course not, but the meltdowns were!

Having my H's FOO around can be triggering. I try to just lay low when they are around as it increases the stress.

The other one is any social situations involving friends of mine. Some of the worst have been school reunion types where old friends of both genders are there. Somehow he can imagine a large group event with spouses and children in attendance as me having sordid encounters with men and get angry at me.

The other triggering events were when I was working and he came along. He once didn't speak to me- the ST- for several days at one. I never knew why. After this happened a few times, I didn't bring him to any work related meetings.

[Hope26]

CB, the short answer is YES, vacations are typically a time for stress.  There have been a couple of previous threads on this issue and I always follow these closely, because that has been one of the key issues for me.  I am planning on retiring soon, and have feared that the vacation behavior may become more the everyday behavior.  But things have improved for us overall, as uBPDh is trying harder, and I've been studying the lessons and doing the same.  Your husband sounds more self-centered than many.  I wonder which one of you chose your getaway destination, or was it a mutual choice?  If it was at least as much his choice, then I don't know what you could do differently in the future, since you let him make most of the decisions once you arrived there.  And since it was just the two of you.  My issues have been more in situations like that of Cloudy Days and Notwendy.  When there are other people involved, whether family, friends (especially my friends), or tour guides, my H can become very grouchy and bad-tempered.  Like Notwendy said, there is a loss of control and expectations.  Later, like with Cloudy Days, he remembers only the good things and is anxious to go again.  It is good that you are learning to have a good time anyway, and to be less reactive to his moods!

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, it's reassuring to hear that it isn't just us this happens to. I went two days, thinking we'd had fun, only to find out he'd been bored, and that probably explained his moodiness. I wouldn't say he had a meltdown, thankfully, but if he was BPDh of a year ago, he likely would have.

Oh, and yeah, his view of vacations involved lots of what I call "honeymoon" sex, to him. He even wanted to have sex outdoors, and pretty much insisted. It was a super isolated area, or I'd have not agreed, and it was another "all about him" occasion. Heck, I just wanted to get it over with. Seriously, not sexy.

After we got home, at his request to come home early, he was all in a good mood, and kissing my butt. Go figure. And now his story is what a good time we had. I guess he's forgotten that for two nights in a row he complained, and said he was bored. Fishing was boring? Sightseeing was boring? I guess the sex made the trip for him?

[Notwendy]

What is it with the vacation sex?

It doesn't seem to be about us. If it included me, there would be some kind of request, agreement, or a mutual decision to be in a romantic setting. This is not about a candlelight dinner and flowers. It's a one sided rule "we are going to have sex every night" that I may not even know about. Then the stage is set to either provide the service or "ruin the vacation" . The potential to "ruin the vacation" is with me, the idea that having a meltdown can ruin the vacation isn't considered. He's off the hook for the emotional side of the vacation.

My own take on this is that sex is a mood stabilizer and a way to control the anxiety of the unknown. A set rule means there is no wondering or taking any responsibility for the relationship. Sex is just gonna happen or I will tantrum. Sex on those terms is not appealing.

My own explanation is that the vacation is disregulating in itself, so during social situations, the distorted thinking is in force, turning fear and feelings into fact. So, joking with a school mate about something silly we did as kids, or paying attention to what a co-worker is saying, can set off a wild imagination and if it is distorted then that can put a disregulated person over the edge.

[formflier]

When I went back to the room, he asked me to sit down, and he apologized.

This is a good sign... .this is a REALLY good sign.  He was left to his own devices... .soothed himself... .and thought of you enough to give an apology. 

I wouldn't put much stock in the I'm bored stuff... .or the wanting to come home early... .then switching to had a great time.

Remember... .he will talk about the emotions he is having... ."in that moment".  So... .if he is bored... .he will relate an experience to you as "totally" boring "the entire time"... .because to do otherwise is potentially invalidating... .or challenges his worldview. (in the moment)

So... what I do... .if my wife is expressing something about "right now"... .I tend to believe it more than if she is expressing a feeling about my sins of years past... .or the great things I did in the past. 

Let them have their point of view... .and switch it as much as possible.  Let them vent and get it out... .or express the happy emotions that are in there.

Be mindful enough so that when you have had enough... .do your boundary and don't look back.

Last:  Great job not fighting!   

FF

[MaybeSo]

Your husband sounds more self-centered than many.

Have you read up on the avoidant attachment style?  It corresponds to what we call a narcissistic style. Partners experience them as self centered, because they are always self-focused on regulating themselves in ways that require distance, physical or emotional, from a primary partner.

And you are describing that to a T.

He announced he was bored.  That would be triggering typically for a partner who is feeling fine and wanting to enjoy a nice vacation together and feeling like everything is good.   It is the partner's response to such announcements that may or may not start a 'fight'.  You didn't take the bait, which is good.   But announcing "I'm bored" isn't necessarily a bid to fight.  He is telling you the truth of how he feels.  And it's true he may have been avoiding the intimacy of going on this short jaunt together... .because intimacy makes them feel icky a lot of the time. And a fight would 'change' his feeling state from bored to something more exciting, so that is why you have to be careful not to go straight to the obvious fix... .let's fight about it!

My ex use to feel this way a lot, too... .he would announce he was bored... .because they are bored inside.  It's not personal, it's just their experience of intimacy. Suffocating and boring at times, especially at times where closeness is the norm.   

In most relationships, this kind of thing will start a fight b/c the partner often doesn't understand what is wrong with the other person and is thinking... .who acts this way on a fun vacation?   Or they feel insulted and personalize it... .oh, I'm not exciting enough to keep you from being bored?  

In my case, my ex would announce he is bored and say things directly to me like, "you are not exciting or efferevescent enough".  In other words, he would announce he felt bored and would see me at the problem. 

At least your H is identifying how he feels and not immediately pointing to you as the one responsible for making him bored. THAT is huge.   

Typcially a fight begins, or someone gets pissed and leaves for a while.  Required distance is created.  The avoidant now has the space they need.   That's how they are.

That's why these pairing are so flippin hard. 

[Notwendy]

That describes my H. I don't think he has the same behaviors at CB's H, but the pattern of keeping emotional distance, tuning out of intimate conversations, basically having happy memories of childhood with few specifics, and the appearance of self focus fits avoidance-attachment. I find that he seems more comfortable with a lot of personal space. This isn't usually the case during vacations when everyone is in a hotel room.

I think the sense of boredom may come from the lack of usual distractions and other things to focus on when at home, like work. Although there are fun things to do on vacation, they are not usually solitary and the ones a person is accustomed to.

[Cloudy Days]

There were several times while on Vacation my husband made a huge deal about not having a little time to his self. My nephew lives in California and we took him to school one day and I really wanted to stay in the hotel and relax instead of getting dressed really quickly. My husband huffed and puffed and made sure I went with his mom to take him to school. He later told me why he wanted me to go. For some reason he never gets to the point of things. If he had just said, "will you go with my mom so that I can have some time alone". I would have agreed quickly and not had a problem with it. Not having his personal space was certainly hard for him, he needs his space when he's annoyed with things and Vacation is a not a place you get space from people.

[Ceruleanblue]

Oh, make no mistake, he WAS blaming me for his being bored. He specifically pointed out the activity I wanted to do that bored him: stopping at a few thrift shops along the way! He was grumpy, and I'd asked him why, but I got denial about the grumpiness. He usually loves to thrift shop, so how was I to know?

I'm pretty sure he's not avoidant personality, but I'll read up on it again. There's been way, way too much conflict and chaos in his life to fit that category I think. And until recently he never even tried to regulating himself. That only came after he started DBT.

I'm always glad to read up on things though. For me, the label doesn't mean that much. I just want to learn how to make the most of a trying situation.

[formflier]

 

So... .the trick would seem to be to let him blame... .let him be bored... .let him say that so he can "vent" out the pressure... .but to not "pick up" responsibility for the boredom.

You were doing an activity you liked... .he was bored... .but... .he went with you and supported you.

So... .possibly turnabout is fair play... .he'll pick something to do that may "bore" you... .and you'll go along.

The good thing I'm picking up in your r/s... and the changes... .is that he is going along with lots of CB's ideas.  Granted... .he is kicking and screaming while he goes... .but... it's a first step.

MaybeSo,

Any advice on how to "deal with" the avoidant type when they are bored and most likely feeling icky. 

Not fighting seems like a first obvious answer... .which CB seems to be doing.

Do you possibly SET it... .to express support and empathy for boredom... .and the truth being... .that it won't be too long until getting to an activity he likes.   

Then follow up with an expression of thanks for his "support" for CB's activities?

The "boredom" thing is not something I deal with in my r/s... .but I'm very curious about it... .trying to think through a proper response...

Thoughts?

FF

[MaybeSo]

No one is all one thing or one label... .and labels are just maps to help understand the terrain... .it's not the actual terrain itself.

If he has always had trouble regulating himself, he probably has more of a disorganized attachment style... .but that doesn't mean he is all that.  No one is all one thing.   If fact, if someone has a insecure/disorganized attachment style... .it would be considered a huge success if through therapy he started to present as just insecure/avoidant.  That's a HUGE step from disorganized. 

He does a lot of good things... .regardless of his style.

I'm always glad to read up on things though. For me, the label doesn't mean that much. I just want to learn how to make the most of a trying situation.

One of the best ways to make the most of a trying situation is to just hang onto yourself and not take it personally or interpret his behavior as always meant to be about upsetting or triggering you... .as him trying intentionally to be a jerk to you.  If you interpret another person's attachment style as being all about jerky behavior directed at making you miserable... .it will be almost impossible to hold onto yourself. Labels have a way of helping some of us 'understand' that others have relational styles that while troubling... .are not necessarily all about you.  It's just the way THEY operate.

In any event... .if someone is having an experience... .bottom line, it's THIER experience.  Don't try to fix it, don't fight it, don't personalize it.  If it's being aggressively put upon you in some way or if you feel triggered... .take space, which is what CB did... .which is great.

In thinking about my own experiences... .that didn't escalate and where I could stay calm... .I just stayed curious about his experience but at times I had to be honest with him, that I couldn't fix it for him.  That kind of honesty in my experience didn't lead to fights or anything of that nature. If I could really hang on to myself... .I could even at times emphathize with him... .it must suck to feel horrible or empty or bored inside when everyone else (or me his partner) is just cruising along feeling fine.  There were NO explosive episodes between my partner and I past our first 2.5 years together.  That doesn't mean things were always great... .but there we no explosive episodes.  In our last 5 years together or so... .I never argued or faught with him.  What was the point?  If he is bored with ME, or I'm not exciting enough or didn't pick the right activity... .I just let it be his experience.  In my case... .my partner's boredom usually led to his leaving to find another woman that would excite him and make him feel good again, so this is another area that the poster doesn't have to contend with ... .as far as I know. 

Bottom line... .he's bored.  That resides inside of him.  I would stay open to doing something else if he's bored... .but if he's just going to go into a negative spiral and be unhappy... .leave it alone and carry on.  Empathy can be helpful as in emotional validation... .but it's no guarantee that this person is going feel better. 

I think you have to get good a letting go and letting others have their experience.   I did that a lot, and found for myself that I was not willing to live this way the rest of my life, with someone who was so unhappy so often.  And even though I didn't engage in fights, I can't say I was never triggered.  I was working hard to manage myself and him a lot.  That's why I'm no longer with him... .It felt like a full time job, and I already have a full time job.

But, during the time I was choosing to be with him... .I had to ACCEPT that he is a person that tends to be moody and unhappy and has a lot of uncomfortable experiences a lot of the time... .that's just who he is.  And, he tended to look to me (externalize) as the reason for his unhappiness a lot, too... .but I quit picking up that rope years ago.  This is just who he is.  I chose for 8 years to be with him.  That was MY choice.  I wasn't a victim, it wasn't happening TO ME, it was a relationship I chose to participate in for a long time.  He had a lot of good traits when he was feeling well, but... .he's a very moody, unhappy person, too.  That's the reality.   

[MaybeSo]

Do you possibly SET it... .to express support and empathy for boredom... .and the truth being... .that it won't be too long until getting to an activity he likes.   

Then follow up with an expression of thanks for his "support" for CB's activities?

I think the thanks and a show of apprectiation is smart... .but  in my case, the truth usually wasn't that he would find an activity he likes sooner or later... .and saying that wouldn't go over well with my ex, the truth for me is that, I can't fix his boredom for him, but I'm happy to brainstorm with him if he wants to.  My ex could go months in a deep irritable depression and wouldn't go anywhere with me during those times and nothing made him happy.

But... .One thing I have never been very skilled at is verbalizing my appreciation A LOT.  I do say thanks and express appreciation, but he really needed it a lot more than I did it.   I do other things that to me express appreciation... .but my ex really needed to hear a lot of verbal appreciation, and I never got super good at working that muscle.  I would run around 'doing things' for him that I thought showed my appreciation and took a lot of effort and thought... .but he really responded well to just hearing "I REALLY appreciate you so much for coming along with me on this trip, or helping me with xyz, or being a good sport even though you weren't really enjoying something"... .whatever it is.  Once I told him that I didn't like to be a passenger in a car with anyone but him b/c he is such a skilled and careful driver... .and I just don't feel at ease with anyone elses driving the way I do with him... .oh my god... .you would have thought I'd told him he was the king of the world.  THIS is again where he and I were mismatched.   It is not my normal comfort zone to be verbalizing like that a lot about a partner... .I am more of a 'works' person.  I do things to express appreciation, I don't verbalize as much.  My ex doesn't feel the 'doing' stuff... .he needs to hear how great I think he is and hear verbal appreciation and when he does... .he usually responds extremely well to it. This makes perfect sense for someone who is truly insecure or feels unloveable inside which is what a narcissistic wound is all about.

CB I wonder if your H responds super well to verbalizing thanks and appreciation.   If so I would look for opportunities to do that as much as possible.  I could have done that more for sure.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I was appreciative that we did the thrift thing, but I also did "his" thing by going to the fishing store, and actually going fishing. Those are more his things, but I don't mind doing them, of course. I think the real issue is he feels put upon to do anything I like, but feels I should always do things that solely interest him.

I did read up on avoidant attachment, and parts of it sound like him, and others not so much. He's really social, so that doesn't sound like him, but I've always thought he might not have bonded or gotten enough attention as an infant and child. The back of his head is FLAT, because he clearly laid too much. He also does the "tuning out" thing the article mentioned.

I think I handled his "boredom" okay, but I just wish he'd tell me in the moment so we can deal with it. He lets things stew and simmer. We did discuss that in last MC, that I'd rather know there is an issue at the time, rather than him harbor resentment, and throw it at me later.

I used to really try to build him up with verbal affirmation, plus I'd send him texts, saying how much I appreciate him, all that. It seemed to fall on deaf ears, so while I still do it, it's not as over the top as it was. He never seemed to believe me, or it just didn't mean anything to him. I'd love to have a little positive affirmation, but it's hard for him to give that.

I wish he'd respond to words of affirmation, because that's an easy one for me to do. It's natural for me. In fact, my Mom once when I was dating to "stop building these guys up so much, that they'll think you can't live without them". I was just doing it so they'd know that I saw good things in them. It's something I do naturally, but it's certainly not my husband's love language.

[MaybeSo]

It's something I do naturally, but it's certainly not my husband's love language.

what do you think is his love language?

[Hope26]

It never ceases to amaze me how much we all have in common.  NotWendy says her H needs a lot of personal space, and CloudyDays says her H makes a big deal out of not having enough time to himself.  That fits my H to a 'T'.  We just finished a two week vacation during which time a friend of mine had joined us for a week.  H came close to having a rage when she was there, and actually told me his 'BPD was going to come out' (his words) and he didn't want to 'ruin my friendship with her' so I'd better keep her away from him for a day. My friend does talk a lot, which I think is part of the problem, but H dislikes a lot of people, including her and most of the other friends I've had since before our marriage.  So I found things for her and I to do together the following day, without him, and we had a great time.  The next day H was better, and thanked me for giving him his space, but also told me to 'stop acting like I thought he was going to go crazy'.  I didn't think I had been doing that, but possibly the tension I still felt was obvious to him.   I don't think we can have 'normal' vacations with the kind of distorted emotions we deal with in our partners; we just have to try to deal as best we can.