Feelings of Guilt (2)

[vortex of confusion]

Before the thread got locked, formflier posted the following:

Here is where I am going with this... .

If it is something you can describe to him... .and he can do... .then maybe it is more about him...

This is where it is starting to get tricky for me. When I was telling him what to do and he wasn't following through, I could blame it on him. Now, he is following through on most of the things that I asked him to do. We are having some really productive conversations these days. I am telling him some things that I know have to be hard for him to hear and he is listening. He may not be acting on it but he is listening without getting defensive.

I have been giving him to do lists and he is doing them. (Never mind the fact that I have to tell him what to do) And he is doing them without the attitude.

I feel like any time I tell him to do something specific. He does it.

If it is something that you feel... .but is hard to describe... .them maybe it is more about you...

Now that he is slowly removing my excuses, it is something that I feel but can't describe.

I can say what I want but I am not sure how to translate that into actions that I can tell him to do. That is what works with him. If I can translate something into a concrete action and communicate it with him clearly and concisely without being wishy washy, then he seems to oblige. He may get a little pouty but he does it.

So, how can I translate things like this into something that I can communicate with him?

Here are a few things that come to mind:

I absolutely hate that he was okay with the idea of me being with somebody else.

I want him to be just a tiny bit jealous. I am not talking about the creepy weird kind. I am talking about the normal kind that I think exists in most healthy relationships. Isn't it normal for a person to be jealous if a partner shows too much affection to somebody else?

I want to feel like he has my back. I don't know how to put that into action words. Having my back, to me, means that he notices things that need to be done and does them without me having to give him a list or directions. If I say, "Such and such needs done." It isn't likely to happen. I have to tell him exactly what I want done and when I want it done. For the longest time, I resisted being that specific and kept whining because he wasn't doing stuff. Well, I figured out the magic equation and I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

I wanted to respond to ff and hopefully get the thread going in a direction that will help me sort this out.

When I came here, I think I was at a point where all I saw was the negative stuff that my husband does. I was trying to figure out how to make reality align with my feelings. (Maybe I am BPD afterall.) I don't do feelings. Everything needs to have a logical explanation in my mind. Even feelings should be logical!   If feelings aren't logical, then by golly I am going to try to force them to be.

Thoughts?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[satahal]

I absolutely hate that he was okay with the idea of me being with somebody else.

I want him to be just a tiny bit jealous. I am not talking about the creepy weird kind. I am talking about the normal kind that I think exists in most healthy relationships. Isn't it normal for a person to be jealous if a partner shows too much affection to somebody else?

I want to feel like he has my back. I don't know how to put that into action words. Having my back, to me, means that he notices things that need to be done and does them without me having to give him a list or directions.

I'm jumping in to the middle of this and I'm a newbie, so hoping that's okay….

1. I think it is normal for a partner to feel jealousy but it's also normal for a partner not too - perhaps less normal, but still normal. Some people just don't get jealous for a variety of reasons - they aren't territorial or they are so sure of your love that no flirtation shakes their certainty of your commitment. I've been that person who never gets jealous - not with everyone I've been with for sure - but my first husband - I let him go to strip clubs on his break at work with the guys. He gave female co-workers rides home at night at times - never crossed my mind that I should be worried or jealous. I just trusted the guy so utterly completely. I really felt like he could sleep with someone else and it wouldn't threaten what we had. I just knew in my bones.

2. It's completely reasonable to want your partner to see what you need or the house needs and just jump in. It's about taking ownership of your shared life. I can really relate to that as I deal with that too. It can be so obvious - like I'm sick as a dog and need medicine and I have to ask, or a fixture is broken for months and I buy the supplies to fix it and he sees all of this and will do nothing, say nothing until I ask but then he's johnny on the spot.

I'm starting to think a BPD spouse is like a dependent, a ward - not quite a child but not quite fully capable adult. Can we ever really expect a true partnership?

[vortex of confusion]

I've been that person who never gets jealous - not with everyone I've been with for sure - but my first husband - I let him go to strip clubs on his break at work with the guys. He gave female co-workers rides home at night at times - never crossed my mind that I should be worried or jealous. I just trusted the guy so utterly completely. I really felt like he could sleep with someone else and it wouldn't threaten what we had. I just knew in my bones.

Thank you for sharing this perspective! My husband has told me at different times over the years that he has never questioned my love for him. Even when I did sleep with somebody else, it didn't seem to bother him a bit.

The guy that I was engaged to when I was in college went to strip clubs too. He spent something like 800 bucks one time. It didn't bother me. I knew in my bones that I was his girlfriend (then fiance) and nothing would change that. It was what he said, what he did, and how he looked at me.

Hmmm. . .definite food for thought!

2. It's completely reasonable to want your partner to see what you need or the house needs and just jump in. It's about taking ownership of your shared life. I can really relate to that as I deal with that too. It can be so obvious - like I'm sick as a dog and need medicine and I have to ask, or a fixture is broken for months and I buy the supplies to fix it and he sees all of this and will do nothing, say nothing until I ask but then he's johnny on the spot.

That is a good way of describing it. I want him to take ownership of our shared life. I don't feel like he takes ownership of things and there isn't really a way to communicate that in a way that he will understand as it requires more of an attitude/feeling than it does concrete actions. It requires a level of awareness that I don't think that my husband can achieve.

[satahal]

It requires a level of awareness that I don't think that my husband can achieve.

Yes, it's an attitude - it's a kind of initiative and motivation to walk into a room or wake up and say, "What needs to be done around here?" or simply to notice and then feel responsible. Perhaps, this is some feature of the disorder - they're so swept up in trying to regulate raw emotions that stuff like buying more dish soap can't register. That's one thing I'm realizing about my daughter who has BPD - she can seem so flat, and calm or non-emotional but all the while she's got a twister going on in her head that she's trying to wrestle down - so of course she's not capable of the little niceties.

My partner with BPD seems more emotional and connected but he's also emotionally struggling to regulate, harboring all kinds of resentments he's trying to suppress and who knows what else - so he's just not fully present. But, like yours, give him a list and he's good to go.

[vortex of confusion]

Yes, it's an attitude - it's a kind of initiative and motivation to walk into a room or wake up and say, "What needs to be done around here?" or simply to notice and then feel responsible. Perhaps, this is some feature of the disorder - they're so swept up in trying to regulate raw emotions that stuff like buying more dish soap can't register. That's one thing I'm realizing about my daughter who has BPD - she can seem so flat, and calm or non-emotional but all the while she's got a twister going on in her head that she's trying to wrestle down - so of course she's not capable of the little niceties.

I also think it has to do with locus of control. Some people are internally motivated and others aren't. It seems like my husbands usually needs some kind of external motivation to accomplish things. Buying more dish soap doesn't register because doesn't seem to remember that he is an adult and that is part of being an adult.

My partner with BPD seems more emotional and connected but he's also emotionally struggling to regulate, harboring all kinds of resentments he's trying to suppress and who knows what else - so he's just not fully present. But, like yours, give him a list and he's good to go.

Lists are good because they are black and white and don't require any kind of decision making.

Of course, there was the one night that I sent my husband to the store with a grocery list and he didn't bring home a bunch of the stuff on the list so he turned around and went right back out. Even lists aren't fail proof. 

[Notwendy]

I think it is good that you can articulate what you want. I hope that my response can give you some insight to how it may feel to live with someone who has a "golden child" childhood script growing up in a dysfunctional family. Whether this turns into BPD is a different situation- so no, I don't think you have it. I do think that the patterns we learned in childhood that worked for us then can cause problems in our intimate relationships, because what worked then doesn't necessarily work now. It is hard to give up those patterns because they feel "right" to us, and we may still believe they are right, but we can ask- is this working to get me the life I want?

I mentioned before that my H was the golden child, and he also took the stand that "I don't do emotions" and wants to be better than human.  His family tends to be very stoic up front, but doesn't handle emotions well. Emotions are part of being human, but we can choose to not feel them, but by not acknowledging that side of us, or rejecting it, we also reject it in others. What my H gets angry at me for tends to be when I am expressing the parts of him he doesn't value- the soft, vulnerable, emotional side of me. Ironically, this is what attracted him to me as he loves that kind of affection from me, and yet this is the part of me he pushed away.

In a strange way, it may have been a blessing that he was motivated by gender roles and left the house and kids to my domain, or I may not have had any area of our lives to achieve some sort of expertise in. To me, your H doesn't have anything he can do that you don't already do better than him- and when he does do it- go to the store for you, he doesn't do it adequately. I would bet he knows that, because when my H does things- in his domain- the "man" stuff  to him, he does it so much better than I do, and he certainly lets me know it. My response to that is to not take initiative to do it- because I don't like feeling inferior to my spouse. On the other hand, it would not occur to me to give my H a list to go to the store ( if he is going for something he wants, I can ask for a few items, but he doesn't go for the household) - and I don't think he has bought a bottle of dish soap the entire time we have been married. Asking these things didn't go over well with him.


I used to turn to him when I was emotional, but got the "I don't do emotions" response- even the "people who are emotional are inferior" response. Well - who wants to feel inferior? So I made a point of not showing him any feelings. While he said he didn't do emotions, he does one of them well- and that is anger, but not seeing the full range of emotions in him led to me believing he didn't have feelings, and - well if someone doesn't have feelings, you just don't relate to them on an emotional level. Yet, this was hurtful to him, because- he is human and does have feelings, he has just rejected that side of him.

You might very well believe in your way and consider it a sign of being strong. My H does. His argument is that people who give in to their feelings all the time become weak and impulsive. But he sees this in black and white, and there is a middle ground that I wanted to achieve with him. His stand on emotions cuts him off from that possibility. You say you won't cry in front of your H? I used to, but I don't anymore. I don't want to be the "weakling" in the family. Yet, I do cry when I am alone or with sympathetic friends.

So back to your wants- you want your H to show you some jealousy. I don't know if he is or he isn't, but if I were jealous, I would not likely show that to my H. Why? Because it is an emotion, and I don't want to be the weak emotional one.  Or because I am so burned out on our issues that I wouldn't care. There was a time early in our r/s where I was jealous of a co-worker of my H. That's been over for a long time. Now, I don't know if I would be jealous or not. It was hard to feel I couldn't meet my H's expectations, and it could be a relief if someone could- but I don't believe anyone could because his dissatisfaction with me was really his dissatisfaction with the parts of me he couldn't accept in himself and he would bring these into any relationship.

You want your H to show initiative? Well, my H probably wishes that I would do this too, but for the things that I feel inferior to him about, I am not going to try. I don't enjoy being seen as incompetent. You want your H to step up to the plate, but it seems that the things you want him to do, he doesn't do very well, and I imagine he knows that.

People are motivated by positive reinforcement, and a feeling that they are competent. Your H has some domains where he is- like video games, but I don't see where in the family or household he can experience competence. You are a force to be reckoned with, but that can be intimidating. It is good to be competent and strong. FWIW, I am not incompetent- I have many achievements to be proud of, but there is no space to feel accomplished in my H's domain, and when I would point out the things I did, he would act as if they were no big deal. I got my sense of accomplishment in other areas, such as work, and as a mother. Your H may be getting his validation somewhere else ( porn, recovery, video games) and while these are not healthy outlets, and addiction is his issue, I wonder if there are options for your H to excel in your lives?

I think the point I am trying to say is - are you willing to consider that your childhood script may not be getting you what you want with your H? For him to show an emotion like jealousy, he may need to feel that showing emotions is acceptable- and you may need to engage with your emotions more. For him to take initiative at a task you want him to do, he may need the space to do it in his way and have a sense of competence.

[vortex of confusion]

I hope that my response can give you some insight to how it may feel to live with someone who has a "golden child" childhood script growing up in a dysfunctional family.

I know I am a pain in the butt to live with and I know that my husband feels inferior to me. I have dialed myself back for years. I don't do things because I don't want him to feel bad about himself. I have accepted whatever I could get for years.

I mentioned before that my H was the golden child, and he also took the stand that "I don't do emotions" and wants to be better than human.

I am perfectly fine with other people's emotions. It is my own emotions that I don't like. If somebody around me is crying or needs some comforting, I am right there. Like I said, I am the calm in everybody's storm. If I were to let go and get emotional, things would fall apart. One of the reasons that things feel apart between me and my husband there for a while is because I was doing the whole emotional female thing. It didn't work. I went to talk to somebody about my feelings and what happened? She reported me to CPS. The feelings stuff doesn't work for me. It gets me in trouble.

Emotions are part of being human, but we can choose to not feel them, but by not acknowledging that side of us, or rejecting it, we also reject it in others.

There is a big difference between not feeling something and not showing it. I have feelings and emotions. I can acknowledge them to myself. I may not acknowledge them to my husband or anybody else in the world but I can acknowledge them to myself. I can ponder them and deal with them in private. I don't see a need to share the emotions and feelings with others, especially when other people need somebody to be strong. I don't see why being able to keep it together is a problem.

To me, your H doesn't have anything he can do that you don't already do better than him- and when he does do it- go to the store for you, he doesn't do it adequately.

How is this my fault? He wants a list. I give him a list. Him missing a portion of what is on the list isn't something that I can control. If he doesn't do it adequately, that is on him not me.

I would bet he knows that, because when my H does things- in his domain- the "man" stuff  to him, he does it so much better than I do, and he certainly lets me know it. My response to that is to not take initiative to do it- because I don't like feeling inferior to my spouse.

Is your spouse responsible for your feelings of inferiority? What can he do to help you not feel so inferior? Should he deliberately stop doing things? Should he not share what he has done with you out of fear that you will feel inferior? Part of the reason that I don't share much with my husband is because I don't want to set off his inferiority complex. There are times when I think that the fact that I exist sets off his inferiority complex.

I used to turn to him when I was emotional, but got the "I don't do emotions" response- even the "people who are emotional are inferior" response.

This does not apply. I comfort my husband and listen to him go on about whatever it is that he has to talk about. I have held him and stroked his head and reassured him on numerous occasions.

Well - who wants to feel inferior? So I made a point of not showing him any feelings. While he said he didn't do emotions, he does one of them well- and that is anger, but not seeing the full range of emotions in him led to me believing he didn't have feelings, and - well if someone doesn't have feelings, you just don't relate to them on an emotional level. Yet, this was hurtful to him, because- he is human and does have feelings, he has just rejected that side of him.

Nobody wants to feel inferior. If I know that sharing something with somebody is going to make them feel inferior, then I am going to shut down and not share. Have you considered the fact that he hasn't rejected that side of himself. Perhaps he feels like he is walking on eggshells because no matter what he does, you might feel inferior or you might shut down or you might continue to refuse to take any initiative. It is a no win situation.

If I am 100% myself, that makes my husband feel inferior. If I dial things back, then I am not being true to myself or I am withholding or I am reverting to some childhood script. Perhaps it isn't about some convoluted childhood script. Perhaps it is that I am looking at the actual reality of the situation. If my husband lacks initiative because he feels like he is in a no win situation and feels inferior to me, that is HIS problem not mine. It it up to him to deal with his feelings of inferiority. It is not my job to coddle him any more. I have done that for far too long.

His argument is that people who give in to their feelings all the time become weak and impulsive.

I agree with your husband. I think a person should be able to harness their feelings. A person needs to know when to give in to a feeling and when to dial things back. Being guided by feelings without any kind of logical shut off valve is a recipe for disaster. That is why there is road rage incidents and all kinds of craziness in this world. Feelings are not facts and should not be given in to because the feeling is subject to change.

But he sees this in black and white, and there is a middle ground that I wanted to achieve with him. His stand on emotions cuts him off from that possibility. You say you won't cry in front of your H? I used to, but I don't anymore. I don't want to be the "weakling" in the family. Yet, I do cry when I am alone or with sympathetic friends.

Are you sure it is his stand on emotions that is the problem? Or could it be that you have put him in a little box where you have defined him in such a way that even if he wanted to find a middle ground he wouldn't be able to for fear of making you feel inferior. How would you feel if he did find that middle ground and did it better than you? He is letting you feel superior in the home and feelings/female stuff. You are clearly so much better than him at it so he is letting you have it.

I don't cry around many people. It is about finding people that are safe and are okay with the emotions thing. I bet your husband cries and has emotions. He just doesn't share them with you because it isn't safe.

You want your H to show initiative? Well, my H probably wishes that I would do this too, but for the things that I feel inferior to him about, I am not going to try. I don't enjoy being seen as incompetent. You want your H to step up to the plate, but it seems that the things you want him to do, he doesn't do very well, and I imagine he knows that.

How is it his fault that you feel inferior? I don't understand this. If you don't want to be seen as incompetent, then don't be incompetent. Put more pride into your work. Take ownership of it. Ask for help. Don't do a half azz job and then be mad at me because I redo it or ask you to go back and fix things. If it is something that isn't important, I will likely ignore it.

People are motivated by positive reinforcement, and a feeling that they are competent. Your H has some domains where he is- like video games, but I don't see where in the family or household he can experience competence.

Why is this my fault? Why is this my problem? I have given him positive reinforcement for his efforts. I don't berate or belittle what he does. When I am at work, he e-mails me and I give him things to do. He reports back to me when he is done and I thank him for his work and tell him how awesome he is without even seeing the results. When I get home, he is like a little kid, "Come see what I did" and I go check it out and tell him that he did a good job.

Shouldn't I be getting some kind of positive reinforcement or validation for my efforts?

You have complained that your husband lets you know how good he is. Could it be that he is validating himself because you won't/don't? I would love to get some validation and positive reinforcement from my husband. I rarely get it so I try to validate myself by doing things that make me feel good and capable. I find doing a good job to be validating all by itself. The problem is that if I do things that make ME feel good and capable, then that might make him feel inferior. So, I do what I do and he is responsible for his feelings of inferiority. That isn't my circus.

Your H may be getting his validation somewhere else ( porn, recovery, video games) and while these are not healthy outlets, and addiction is his issue, I wonder if there are options for your H to excel in your lives?

In order for him to excel, he would have to take some initiative. According to your logic, it seems that I am at a stale mate because, in order for him to take some initiative, I have to stop doing things well because my abilities make him feel inferior.

For him to take initiative at a task you want him to do, he may need the space to do it in his way and have a sense of competence.

I'll try to be more patient. Instead of 6 months, I'll try to wait a year or two before saying anything.

[Notwendy]

Interesting feedback VOC and anything that makes me consider my own behavior is worthwhile. Thanks.

No, my H is not responsible for my feelings of inferiority.

Ironically, holding back one's accomplishments from someone else gives out the message that you think they can not handle it- and that is a perception that they are not strong enough to handle it. Sometimes it is what we don't do that gives off a stronger impression than what we do.

I am quite competent at many things, and I don't do a half a'd job. However, nobody is good at everything, and body language means a lot. There are things I do better than my H and vice versa. When doing something new, one risks making a mistake. Being able to make an error in front of someone who does not tolerate error influences one's motivation, and what is considered a crucial error can vary. Bringing home groceries is not open heart surgery. When considering a relationship, I weight the cost of tolerating an error over pointing it out.

I don't think it is a good idea to be completely controlled by emotions. Again, someone's behavior can send the message better than words or saying consoling things. I don't want to be a crying raging lunatic, and neither do I want to be married to one. But not being able to see my H's feelings is not a gift to me- because it doesn't work. I am not so fragile that I can not tolerate someone's expression of emotions. If he's afraid of making me feel inferior, then that is something that is intrinsic to him,. I would prefer to deal with feelings and fears up front, not hide them or guess at them.

My only point is to ask you what unintended messages you are sending to your H by acting according to your beliefs about emotions and your standards for what is a job well done? Dialing yourself back from your H because he may not be able to handle it may be robbing him of the opportunity to handle it. At least, it is frustrating to you to do this, and is that a gift to your H?

High standards are good, but he may not be able to meet them without some space for trial and error. I know that you know that the only person you can really work on is ourselves and so, the only real feedback we can consider is the feedback aimed at ourselves. Some posts here really make me think about what I am doing, and so they are valuable just for the sake that they make me think. I don't have to agree with them. However, if I want something to change, I find it helps to see things from different points of view, and so that is why I offered mine.

[vortex of confusion]

Ironically, holding back one's accomplishments from someone else gives out the message that you think they can not handle it- and that is a perception that they are not strong enough to handle it. Sometimes it is what we don't do that gives off a stronger impression than what we do.

In an earlier post, you said:

To me, your H doesn't have anything he can do that you don't already do better than him- and when he does do it- go to the store for you, he doesn't do it adequately. I would bet he knows that, because when my H does things- in his domain- the "man" stuff  to him, he does it so much better than I do, and he certainly lets me know it. My response to that is to not take initiative to do it- because I don't like feeling inferior to my spouse.

Help me understand how these two things go together. I get the sense that you feel inferior when he shares his accomplishments and your response is to not take initiative.

Then you state that holding ones accomplishments back sends out the message that you can't handle it.

I am confused about what it is that you are trying to say here. Where is the win here? Sharing leads to feelings of inferiority and not sharing leads to feelings of inferiority. My take away is that I need to do what is right for me because it is quite likely I am not going to be able to take my spouse into consideration because it is a situation where any action that I take is going to make my spouse feel bad.  

And that brings me back to the original topic and original purpose of this thread, which is to figure out what I want and how to communicate that without feeling guilty for making my husband feel bad or inferior.

[Notwendy]

I will try to explain this clearer- the part "he certainly lets me know it".

My H is really good with handyman type things. That is fine with me. However, I feel that both men and women can do things around the house. Before I was married, I did plenty of handyman things. Naturally, as a newlywed, I wanted to get along with my H, and I am a go with the flow person. I was hanging something on the wall, and some of the drywall broke off. It probably had nothing to do with me- it was an old house. The response from my H was critical. Now, at this time, my motive was to get along. It did not make me feel inferior, however, I am less likely to try this now when I know he can do it better. I don't know how to make this distinct- it is not because of inferiority that I would leave this to him, it is because he is less likely to make a mistake than I am, and if he does make a mistake, it is his to own, not mine to criticize. For tasks like this, my tolerance of errors is larger than his.

Saying feeling inferior may not be the best of terms, but it doesn't feel good to have your mistakes pointed out to you by a spouse. If the cost of not doing a great job of hanging a picture is to be corrected, the incentive to try is less. I could see the hole myself. I didn't need a lecture on the mistake I made.

However, if his response had been " well, maybe with practice you can get better" or "well it is an old wall, we needed to replace it"  I may have taken more initiative.  It was a small hole, not a giant crater. I don't advocate tolerating someone causing major damage to the house.

I actually enjoy using a hammer and nail and can be quite handy, and may just do this no matter what his response, but patterns and habits can be set, and my not wanting to rock the boat led me to leave that stuff to him.

Maybe your H isn't a competent person, maybe he is a space cadet. However, if he goes to the store and forgets half the items, how you respond to him can influence his incentive to do it again. If he knows that he is more likely to make an error than you are, and errors are not tolerated well, he may sit back and let you do it.

What is the range of tolerable human error and incompetence in your eyes? You seem to be giving your H a lot of space for error,  but from your posts, it seems you do not think he does what you ask him to do well, even if you choose not to say anything. I wonder if he is picking up on this?

This is not about holding accomplishments back, it is to point out that people can be more or less competent at things, and how we deal with that. I don't have an exact answer to all of this.

[vortex of confusion]

Saying feeling inferior may not be the best of terms, but it doesn't feel good to have your mistakes pointed out to you by a spouse. If the cost of not doing a great job of hanging a picture is to be corrected, the incentive to try is less. I could see the hole myself. I didn't need a lecture on the mistake I made.

I understand this. My husband tends to be critical as well. Our dog is house trained and uses pads that we change. When he does number 2, we pick it up immediately. One day, I didn't pick up the #2 right away because I was busy. He came in and saw and said, ":)oes anybody do this besides me?" The day he notices and says something is the day that I didn't do it.

At one point, I asked him if there was anything I could do to help him or make his life easier. He said that he gets tired of always changing the cat boxes. So, I offered to start helping with it. I took the initiative to do it and he got irritated with me. I don't do that any more.

However, if his response had been " well, maybe with practice you can get better" or "well it is an old wall, we needed to replace it"  I may have taken more initiative.  It was a small hole, not a giant crater. I don't advocate tolerating someone causing major damage to the house.

I tolerate it if it is an accident. He went up in the attic one time and fell through the ceiling. I validated the heck how it could have happened. There is a big space between the rafters that is difficult to make. Any amount of unsteadiness can be dangerous. I posted about it on FB and our friends validated him as well and made him not feel so bad. Our friends shared stories of stuff like that happening to them and even professionals. Now, we laugh about how when he fell through and came out the closet it looked like the closet was giving birth.

Maybe your H isn't a competent person, maybe he is a space cadet. However, if he goes to the store and forgets half the items, how you respond to him can influence his incentive to do it again. If he knows that he is more likely to make an error than you are, and errors are not tolerated well, he may sit back and let you do it.

My motto is that if you don't make mistakes in life, it is hard to learn. Some of the best learning happens after a mistake. The night that I am referring to, I didn't really say anything. I was visibly irritated but didn't really say anything. He brought in the groceries and immediately went back to the store. We talked about it later and he apologized. I empathized with him and told him that I know how it feels to walk into a store and completely space out. I have had it happen to me. I don't shop from a list, but even when I do, I will sometimes miss something or forget why I am there. We are both prone to forget things. Both of us have walked off and left bags at the store and had to go back. When he comes home, I will ask, "Where is (fill in the blank)?" if I can't find it when unloading the groceries. If he forgot it, fine. If it is on the receipt and it didn't make it home, then we know to go back to the store. When things are tight, he is great about going to the store and sticking to a list and staying on budget. I do better at the store when I don't have a list but am going to stock up on pay day.

What is the range of tolerable human error and incompetence in your eyes? You seem to be giving your H a lot of space for error,  but from your posts, it seems you do not think he does what you ask him to do well, even if you choose not to say anything. I wonder if he is picking up on this?

Part of it may be him picking up on it. I think the other huge part is his childhood scripts. His mother is the most critical and impossible to please person that I know. When we lived with her for a brief period of time, the woman about drove me nuts. If I bundled up too much, she would tell me that I was going to get hot and that I was wearing too much. If I didn't bundle up enough, then I was going to get cold, blah, blah, blah. There was no winning with her. If I would do something that I thought was pretty run of the mill, she would tell me "Good job" or some other compliment in a super condescending tone as though she was surprised that I was able to do anything. Four months of living with that constantly killed my self esteem. I can only imagine what it would be like to grow up with that on a day to day basis. My husband has picked up some of those critical habits and has been working really hard to overcome them.

[Notwendy]

I would also like to step back and look at a larger picture. On a previous thread, the childhood script was brought up.  We both came from dysfunctional families, and so did our spouses. This is why we matched up as a couple. The roles we played as children worked for us, and those behaviors are pretty wired with us. We feel they are right, because they worked for us well at a time we needed them. However, when we bring them into relationships, we bring the dysfunction with us because they are adaptations to dysfunction.

My discussing your role as the "golden child", I am not being personally critical of you. I have my own role as a black child. It has its pros and cons too. I don't know what your H's role in his family was. I can say that while the golden child might feel as if he has a special position in the family, may feel that his way is the right way, that role doesn't work outside the family and even in the family, the others can see it differently.

Being married to a golden child, I tried to give you my impression of what that feels like. I hoped it might give you an idea of why your H may not have the initiative you wish he had.  Really, that's the sum of it. I could be right, I could be wrong. I know that I had to take a look at how my family role influenced my marriage, as well as my H's.

[vortex of confusion]

Being married to a golden child, I tried to give you my impression of what that feels like. I hoped it might give you an idea of why your H may not have the initiative you wish he had.  Really, that's the sum of it. I could be right, I could be wrong. I know that I had to take a look at how my family role influenced my marriage, as well as my H's.

I am confused. How does this relate to MY feelings of guilt? How does this help me to get my needs met?

I can understand why he is the way he is. The more I try to understand him and see his side of things, the more guilty I feel. Why can't I work at accepting it without all of the mental mind games of analyzing him and trying to guess his motives and reasons for being the way he is?

He is who he is and I have to figure out how to work with that.

My husband and I are not children any more. It is time to grow up.

[vortex of confusion]

I am going to attempt to go back to the questions that FF posed. . .

Something I want. . .I want him to take initiative.

Is that about me or him? If it is him, then how can I translate that into something more concrete?

If it is about me, what can I do to address it? Or is this one more hoop that I am creating in order to feel justified for not being happy with our relationship?

I am not interested in discussing why he is the way that he is. Let's assume that I have radically accepted him for who he is without the need to analyze him or his motives. I am more focused on what I can do on my side of things. Like FF said in another thread, check yourself and make sure that you haven't done anything egregious or unreasonable and move on.

[satahal]

Something I want. . .I want him to take initiative.

Is that about me or him? If it is him, then how can I translate that into something more concrete?

If it is about me, what can I do to address it? Or is this one more hoop that I am creating in order to feel justified for not being happy with our relationship?

I kind of think it's his personality or pd at work and so it's about him in that sense but also about you because you know to my mind (and that's the mind of a person partnered with a person w/BPD, etc, so take it with a grain or ten of salt), it seems like something you might try to accept. Because it's good that he will do what you wish with a list - that seems great - more than many partners will do. Maybe my "it could be worse" logic isn't the best argument but no one is going to be without some disappointing tendencies, which I know you know.

That it bothers you deeply suggests that you don't feel like he truly cares about you as thoroughly as you would like to be cared about. If that's true, I don't think that's insurmountable but it seems most of the adjustment will likely have to come from your side i.e. changing your expectations. He cares as much as he can for anyone most likely or shows it as much as he can.

You can try giving him concrete examples of what you'd like when different scenarios arise - i.e. when I'm sick I'd like you to offer to bring soup or to take care of the plants, when I have to work late, I'd like you to pick up dinner - like an anticipatory list that he can refer to in his head or email for various situations. I've done this with my partner and he's sporadically stepped up in some instances - better than when he automatically went MIA on me if I came down with something.

Maybe you want a reason to leave and there's nothing wrong with that - with needing that deal breaking piece of evidence so feel like you have to go - nothing wrong with that at all. Taking on a person w/BPD is so huge - it's okay to choose a different life.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe my "it could be worse" logic isn't the best argument but no one is going to be without some disappointing tendencies, which I know you know.

I have used the logic of "it could be worse" for years. He can be a great guy. I know that and recognize that.

That it bothers you deeply suggests that you don't feel like he truly cares about you as thoroughly as you would like to be cared about. If that's true, I don't think that's insurmountable but it seems most of the adjustment will likely have to come from your side i.e. changing your expectations. He cares as much as he can for anyone most likely or shows it as much as he can.

I realize this. Right now, I am in a place where I really need everyone in the house to step up and help me. I have been trying to get him and the kids both to step it up and help but it is falling on deaf ears. He will do what I ask him to do but my brain is on overload right now.

We have a home visit with CPS on Monday and I need the house to be in proper order. I need to feel like he is taking this as seriously as I am.

In this particular instance, I feel like I am about to break down. No, it isn't his fault. It is my fault for trying to talk to somebody and get some help.   

The allegations are against me for neglectful supervision for leaving them with their father who has anger issues and sex addiction.  I complained about him to a life coach and now I am dealing with this. I suppose that it is my fault for not being grateful enough and not realizing that it could be worse. . .

I am grateful that he isn't violent. One thing that I have always been pretty certain of is that he isn't a danger to our kids. He might be annoying and he might be terse and he might raise his voice more than I like but he has never ever never given me any indication that leaving him with our kids is a problem. No, he doesn't jump as fast as I do so the kids complain. He doesn't jump as fast as I do so the kids nag him. There are times when the kids will deliberately NOT ask him for help so they can bombard me with it when I come home. The kids have told me that dad is way better and way more helpful when I am NOT around.

[satahal]

The allegations are against me for neglectful supervision for leaving them with their father who has anger issues and sex addiction.  I complained about him to a life coach and now I am dealing with this. I suppose that it is my fault for not being grateful enough and not realizing that it could be worse. . .

I am grateful that he isn't violent. One thing that I have always been pretty certain of is that he isn't a danger to our kids. He might be annoying and he might be terse and he might raise his voice more than I like but he has never ever never given me any indication that leaving him with our kids is a problem. No, he doesn't jump as fast as I do so the kids complain. He doesn't jump as fast as I do so the kids nag him. There are times when the kids will deliberately NOT ask him for help so they can bombard me with it when I come home. The kids have told me that dad is way better and way more helpful when I am NOT around.

Ok - please let me apologize for being off-handed with my comment - I missed that there were pending CPS visits and your need for help was absolutely urgent.

I am truly sorry you're going through this - it's huge and terrifying and it's not your fault. It's not your fault at all.

[sweetheart]

Hi VOC,

I realize this. Right now, I am in a place where I really need everyone in the house to step up and help me. I have been trying to get him and the kids both to step it up and help but it is falling on deaf ears. He will do what I ask him to do but my brain is on overload right now.

We have a home visit with CPS on Monday and I need the house to be in proper order. I need to feel like he is taking this as seriously as I am.

In this particular instance, I feel like I am about to break down. No, it isn't his fault. It is my fault for trying to talk to somebody and get some help.   

I can really relate to this big time 

What I came to realise when CPS were in our lives was that my h couldn't step up and acknowledge the significance of what it meant. I might have needed him to, but this fed right into magical thinking and away from Radical Acceptance. The bottom line was and is that he can't cope with that level of pressure. He just didn't and couldn't register it's importance in the way that I did. This is true of many, many areas of our lives. I accept this.

My h was in hospital when the CPS undertook their home visit and assessment, I didn't tell him. They didn't need to speak to him, because it was my parenting that was being called into question, in that they were assessing whether or not I was able to safeguard s7 against exposure to my h's mental illness. I was and I am, that was their findings.

I recall that you wrote somewhere on this post that when 'need' replaces 'want' with your husband, things get messy. Like I said I also believe that when I need something from another person I am on shaky ground emotionally.

I can hear and share the importance and enormity of having CPS enter your home and your personal world, it was huge for me, I thought I would fall to pieces. I remember cleaning my home so that it shone, and yes they did look around, I felt violated, naked and vulnerable under their scrutiny. What I knew though, and have always known is I'm a good mum, with clear, safe boundaries around my parenting and my relationship with my h. I might have been scared, but I had nothing to hide.

VOC I can hear in your posts that the emotional well being and safety of your children is paramount in your life. Feeling guilty and responsible for what is happening to you is a natural response as a mother, because your ability to protect your children is bring called into question. 

[vortex of confusion]

I recall that you wrote somewhere on this post that when 'need' replaces 'want' with your husband, things get messy. Like I said I also believe that when I need something from another person I am on shaky ground emotionally.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. You are right. I know that right now I am on very shaky ground emotionally. I need support. I need reassurance that this will be okay and that my kids will be okay. I know that the ideal is to be able to do this on my own without worrying about him. It is in these weak moments when I have such a difficult time with radical acceptance.

I can hear and share the importance and enormity of having CPS enter your home and your personal world, it was huge for me, I thought I would fall to pieces. I remember cleaning my home so that it shone, and yes they did look around, I felt violated, naked and vulnerable under their scrutiny. What I knew though, and have always known is I'm a good mum, with clear, safe boundaries around my parenting and my relationship with my h. I might have been scared, but I had nothing to hide.

Thank you! I am so afraid that I am not going to be good enough in one way or another. I am so afraid that my house isn't going to be clean enough. What if everything I think and feel is wrong? What if my husband is seen as a danger to the kids? What if? What if? What if? It isn't about having anything to hide. It is about me being scared and feeling alone and trying to keep it together so that I can talk to the kids and reassure them that they are just doing their job to make sure that I am not neglecting them or hurting them in any way.

[Grey Kitty]

If it is something you can describe to him... .and he can do... .then maybe it is more about him...

Here are a few things that come to mind:

I absolutely hate that he was okay with the idea of me being with somebody else.

I want him to be just a tiny bit jealous. I am not talking about the creepy weird kind. I am talking about the normal kind that I think exists in most healthy relationships. Isn't it normal for a person to be jealous if a partner shows too much affection to somebody else?

Yes, I think being jealous would be normal... .but that *isn't* where your husband is or how he feels.

Yes, I think it is OK for you to want that from him.

However... .he has those feelings... .or he doesn't... .that's who he is, and all you can do is accept this one. (You could ask him to lie and act jealous, but I don't think you'll have good luck with that!)

I want to feel like he has my back. I don't know how to put that into action words. Having my back, to me, means that he notices things that need to be done and does them without me having to give him a list or directions.

Wanting him to have your back--as far as dedicating energy into your well-being is absolutely reasonable, and honestly, I have trouble imagining a worthwhile relationship that doesn't have that.

Wanting him to take initiative... .especially under pressure of the upcoming CPS investigation... .

I don't know what it will take for him to find that. Tough one to ask for!

Somebody said that the pressure makes it harder for him to perform well, and I suspect that is true. Hang in there. (And remember that CPS is not looking for perfect housekeeping standards!)

[vortex of confusion]

Wanting him to have your back--as far as dedicating energy into your well-being is absolutely reasonable, and honestly, I have trouble imagining a worthwhile relationship that doesn't have that.

I am going to have to think on that a bit.

Wanting him to take initiative... .especially under pressure of the upcoming CPS investigation... .

I don't know what it will take for him to find that. Tough one to ask for!

Somebody said that the pressure makes it harder for him to perform well, and I suspect that is true. Hang in there. (And remember that CPS is not looking for perfect housekeeping standards!)

I think I have found a middle ground that is working and he has stepped up. We have been e-mailing back and forth about what needs done. Today, he said, "Why don't we just make a list so that we can check things off as we go?" So, he created a list and is working on that list while I am at work.

And, I have had to work every night this week. Every night this week, I have given him projects to do while I am gone. Things like clean the refrigerator and freezer. Put x in y place. So far, he has done them all.

I had him contact the doctor that we took the kids to see so we could get a letter regarding the state of their health. He did that with no problem. He still hasn't gotten a letter from his counselor but that is because she hasn't called him back. Grrr. . .

It isn't the way I would like it to be but it is working. He isn't arguing with me at all. When I tell him to jump, he says how hi. He has started to hesitate a time or two and I have given him a look and he just goes along. I shouldn't complain at all.

I know that I am stressed and need to work on getting in a good head space and staying there.

[Sunfl0wer]

I want to feel like he has my back. I don't know how to put that into action words. Having my back, to me, means that he notices things that need to be done and does them without me having to give him a list or directions. If I say, "Such and such needs done." It isn't likely to happen. I have to tell him exactly what I want done and when I want it done. For the longest time, I resisted being that specific and kept whining because he wasn't doing stuff. Well, I figured out the magic equation and I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

I have felt this way in my r/s.  While I appreciated that BF was doing things when asked, I felt that if he did things before asked... .that I would feel that he "has my back," or has a sense of wanting to protect me in some way.  I often offered to do things for him that I saw needed doing and I thought I was better suited for... .without being asked.  To me... .it is also a show of considering another... .having consideration.

Also, while he often would do things I asked, I was a bit resentful that by me making him aware and asking... .I was actually in charge of almost everything... .me having to keep tabs on things needing to be done and followed through with.

Something that helped... .

I asked him if he could "be in charge of the cars." (Just one thing at a time... cars first)

I explained that while I appreciate him letting me know that my tire needs air, it would be lovely if he just was in charge of the cars completely.  So instead of telling me it needs air, go ahead and fill it, then inform me after.  Tell me to monitor the tire. Pick up a can of fix a flat to put in my trunk... .in case... .or add it to my grocery list.

This one thing made me feel a little bit cared for and looked after by him.  It made a huge difference to me.

I admit... .at first... .he still would try to throw the responsibility back to me as it is my car... .and after reminding him several times how lovely it is that he took charge of that... .also giving a few ex of stuff I'm in charge of so he didn't feel singled out... .he started just maintaining the car without being asked/told to... .Then would brag to me after that he did it... .to which I expressed much gratitude at how it meant so much more to me than oil in my engine... .but meant he cared for me in some way.

Do you think you would like to find one minor "thing" for him to be completely responsible for?

Would that help you feel a bit like he's got your back?

[vortex of confusion]

Do you think you would like to find one minor "thing" for him to be completely responsible for?

Would that help you feel a bit like he's got your back?

I have a list of things that he is completely responsible for: making the coffee in the morning, the trash bill, and I am trying to think of what else he is completely responsible for without me checking to see if it is done.

<shrug> I am not in a good place to think about it from this angle right now. Right now, I don't care whether or not he is completely responsible for anything. I want stuff done and I want it done two days ago.  I am antsy and nervous and I know that my house doesn't have to be perfect but the better it looks the better I will feel. Focusing on the house helps me not go down the path of catastrophic thinking. My husband doesn't have a good filter and he will say things that he shouldn't. He might proudly pronounce that he is a sex addict, which is what he did at the first meeting, and then give details to back it up. He feels like he is a sex addict with anger issues. I honestly don't see that. What I see is a guy that has spent his entire life being shamed about his sexuality such that anything that deviates from "normal" is going to send him into a pit of despair. Even normal sex makes him feel ashamed half the time.

As far as the anger goes, he is more like a cartoon character. You know, the kind that stomps around and mutters under his breath but never actually does anything. And, he gets that bright red face and if you didn't know any better, you would think that his head was going to explode. As sad as it is, the kids sometimes push his buttons just to see him react because they think it is funny. The kids aren't the least be scared of him. I have repeatedly asked them whether or not dad has ever hurt them or made them uncomfortable. One of the kids said, "Mom, dad would never hurt us. We would hurt him before he would hurt us."

[123Phoebe]

Hi Vortex, how'd it go today?

[vortex of confusion]

Hi Vortex, how'd it go today?

Postponed until tomorrow. . .

One more day!

[vortex of confusion]

Wanted to post an update. . .

It seemed to go okay. They didn't mention any problems during the home visit. The caseworker said that if all of the calls came back okay he should be able to close the case next week.

I won't be happy until I get a letter saying that it is closed. In the time leading up to the visit, my mother and father scared the crap out of me. They kept telling me every story they could think of where children were taken away for no reason. My 11 year old refused to talk to them because she was so scared of being taken away because of all of the crap that my mother said. When my mom came by to look at the house before the visit, she had to nitpick and tell me that I need to wash all of my mirrors.

There was one part of the visit that really made me kind of sick to my stomach. My husband and I were alone with them in the living room. The caseworker said that there was something in the report that he hadn't addressed yet. Then he asked me point blank, "Has your husband ever forced you to have sex with other men?" No. He never forced me to do anything. It is just the idea that these strange people came into my house and asked me such personal questions has me feeling really violated and disgusted.

I sought out somebody to talk about this stuff to and instead of getting any kind of help or support I feel like I am being punished and put under a microscope.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

I have been a mandatory reporter for most of my career.  I'm not totally familiar with what you told that coach... .but... .I'm not aware of anything in your story that would start me down that line of thinking... .that I had to report something. 

And... unfortunately... .I've had to make many reports over the years... .when you meet the criteria... .you make the report.

If you are not sure... there are training types that can help you sort through the rules... .

And... if you don't meet the criteria... .you don't make a report... .caseworkers have plenty to do without frivolous claims... .

Anyway... .if you want to kick it around some out here... .I'm happy to do so.  Or PM... .either way.

 

I would feel violated too... .

I went through the process last summer... .it was very tiring... .intrusive... etc etc.  In my case... .I think it pushed the dynamics in the right direction.

What I know of your case... .it's a kick in the gut... .

Hang in there

FF

[Grey Kitty]

In this case, the person who reported... .probably used the same bad judgement and lack of skill that applied to the horrible coaching session to the decision to make a report.

I wouldn't compare it to your situation, FF, because you are the sort of competent person who can understand clear guidelines about what needs to be reported, and this life coach seems unlikely to be!

VOC, Whew! Hope it is really over.

[vortex of confusion]

Thank you FF and GK!

The allegations were against me for neglectful supervision of the kids for leaving them with their father who has anger issues and sex addiction.

He can be grumpy and terse but I wouldn't say that he qualifies as having anger issues. I don't see him getting angry at the kids and yelling because they refuse to listen to him as anything that qualifies as abuse or endangerment. I hate it when that happens because I am super sensitive to yelling. My parenting style is gentle. My husband and I have always agreed that spanking will not ever happen in our house. Period. That has always been a non-negotiable and we have tried to make it clear to anyone that has ever watched our kids that they are to NEVER be touched physically without permission. That includes hugs. If my kid doesn't want a hug, then I back that up.

My husband's SA behaviors suck and are damaging to a marriage but they do not make him a danger to children. I have told quite a few friends about my husband's behaviors and I have never ever had anybody come to the conclusion that my husband's behaviors were a danger to anybody. They aren't good for a marriage and they don't help my self esteem but they sure as hell don't equal child endangerment. If every man that masturbated or e-mailed other women or looked at porn were considered a danger to children, then no man could ever be left with a child alone again. It is completely bogus.

I hated that I had to be questioned about those very personal things by strangers in MY house. It is bad enough that some of the crap between my husband and I happened but to add insult to injury I had to be questioned about it. I feel violated by CPS, the coach, and my husband. I am really angry with him right now. He hasn't done anything wrong and has actually been pretty great through all of this. I am angry because he has his counselor and his 12 step program and can talk about his SA so matter of factly. He sat here and told them that his latest slip up was masturbation and emailing other ladies.

I don't know why but hearing him say those things so matter of factly disgusted me. He didn't seem to understand why I might be bothered by it. He said, "I was so matter of fact about it because that is how we talk about it in group and that is how I talk about it with my counselor." It feels like I am supposed to be okay with everything and not talk about anything. I feel very sad and angry and I don't know what.

[formflier]

The allegations were against me for neglectful supervision of the kids for leaving them with their father who has anger issues and sex addiction.

That's what I thought... .never would have crossed my mind to report you guys for something like that.

Issues... .and behaviors are totally different.

Sigh...

I hope it is over for you guys... .

FF