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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: When boundaries appear to have worked too well.  (Read 421 times)
Nope
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« on: August 07, 2015, 08:47:43 AM »

When DH first got physical custody about a year ago the decision was made to go LC with the kid's BPD mom and to institute strong boundaries. This has worked very well for us adults but it seems that without having any control or any way to mess with us she has all but totally lost interest in the kids. That's not good for them.

We had hoped that if we gave her no options except to do at least something sort of close to what she's supposed to do then we'd be able to funnel her into the right direction. Instead it's like she took her ball and just went home because she didn't want to play if we wouldn't play by her ever-changing rules. Now she takes her mandatory three calls a week, texts with the kids occasionally, and makes absolutely zero effort to see them.

She didn't ask for summer parenting time, she hasn't come down once all year to see them even though she can have one weekend a month in our state, she never even looks at their activity schedules that we are required to post on OFW, she didn't show up for court for the change of venue, and the last time we sent her an email needing to change the call time for one of her phone calls she didn't respond and she always argues with us about any change. While I don't miss the obstruction and battles about everything, I'm concerned she won't even take them for Thanksgiving break which is the next time they are supposed to go visit her in her state. It's also the first time they will be seeing her in seven months since she won't come to our state. The kids are starting to have emotional difficulties around their mother's obvious disinterest and the only people they have to take these feelings out on is DH, myself, and each other.

The worst part is that I feel like the more we make it clear to her that she *can* do things, the more she doesn't want to do them. We've bent over backwards to try to help her come to our state for visits but our emails are met with silence. Everything with her is truly about control and winning. And I'm not sure how much longer it'll be before the kids start to realize that. Obviously, the effect on SD12 is that she is totally on her mom's side because she's desperate for her mom's attention. We don't make the kids choose sides but if throwing us under the bus makes her mom notice her then she's fine with doing that. We won the legal battle but it seems it's always the screwed up parent that wins the "Hearts and Minds" battle. And all they have to do is absolutely nothing.
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PinkieV
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2015, 02:40:26 PM »

We're in a similar position.  uBPDbm mentioned summer vacation to SS15 a couple of times, but it was "you can come up any time" or his sister saying "mom says to come any time".  Each time he responded "you have to arrange it with my dad" but we never heard a thing.  I think him saying he didn't want to move back with her made her paint him, if not black, at least a little gray.  He has no wish to go visit, so we're lucky there.

We're just trying to live our lives and not worry about her unless she contacts DH directly.  We have Thanksgiving this year, and we nixed weekends with the custody order because he's on a 4 x 4 schedule with AP classes and just can't handle that travel over two days - let alone missing one day of school there is like missing two in a regular high school.  So basically we'll wait to see if she contacts us about Christmas.

I can't remember if the kids in counseling?  That's really helped SS15, and I'm hoping to get SS19 to go too.  He's going with us to family counseling tomorrow, it will be interesting for SS15's counselor to meet the great SS19 ha ha.

I'm glad you were able to get the venue changed.  It's very true, BPDs can do nothing and still win something.  My SS's have seen over time who has their back and have really settled in after two years.  It was a traumatic upheaval, but SS19 reminded his little brother the other day "look how much better we have it, it was SO worth it".  Hugs to you and your family!
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livednlearned
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 12:11:11 PM »

It's similar in my situation, Nope. And it's very difficult, like you said, about the hearts and minds part.

The kids need to process the loss and grief in healthy ways. Perhaps they're taking it out on you because you're safe -- they know you will accept and tolerate their behavior because you're stable.

They may also feel they need to get your attention -- after being in long protracted legal battles, we can be very wary about speaking openly and addressing the obvious. If court was not hanging over your head all the time, how would you talk to the kids? What would you say?

I am estranged from my narcissistic father after his rejection of me, and it is incredibly painful. It gives me some empathy for what S14 is feeling, and I try to help him process the truth of that pain so it doesn't ambush me, or him, in aggressive ways. Even as an adult, the pain of knowing my dad rejects me is difficult to process, and the grief is always there. For a child, this must be even more painful. It goes to the core of wondering if we matter, if we are worthy, if we are enough.

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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2015, 06:17:42 PM »

I foundput today from SS11 that his mom actually said to him that she will not be coming to visit him in our state because she doesn't want to. She only wants to see them in her state. So she hasn't seen them since April and has flat out stated to them that she won't see them unless they go to her. So that means not until Thanksgiving.

Poor kid. He sees that as just his mother's decision on the matter. I don't think he's processing that as rejection so much as just accepting it like any kid accepts parental rules. I think his older sister (the golden child) is processing it more as a rejection. But at the same time she loves in a world where she and her mom have an unspoken agreement that they can both do no wrong. So it's a mess.
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 03:04:05 PM »

So, with a little preface to this... .my oldest son has an absent father and I've found one way to help me cope with this. (Helping my son is a whole other ball game and still a work in progress)

I don't project my own values onto his Dad. I don't set a bar to where the expectations I hold for myself, I hold for him. I simply just offered the solution that I saw in the best interest of my son (court ordered therapeutic visitation) and made peace that I did the best I could when he made the choice not to pursue it. It helps my resentment, my disappointment, my anger, my frustration... . 

If my kids were one state away and one weekend a month was all I was able to see them, I would make the effort. I place no moral judgment (right/wrong) on someone else who doesn't do the same. They do what is "right" for them.

It's hard on the days when he tells me that he has no self esteem or needs to be put on anti-depressants to help him cope. But I also try really hard not to "victimize" my son by allowing the anger and pity to creep up. I just try and validate that it would be hard and help him voice himself in whatever way he needs to. He's a great kid. His dad not loving him in a way that is acceptable is on Dad, not him.

Your kiddos' Mama losing a custody dispute probably triggered a lot of really, really, really hard emotions. She's suffering from a disorder where these kind of hard emotions are almost unbearable. She's coping in a way she knows how (by pushing it away). I don't know that it's so much about winning and losing as it is about saving face. She has to make you two the bad guys because owning up to that what makes us lose custody of our children is something she does not have the skill set to handle or deal with. You have someone who profoundly struggles in self worth and our society isn't very kind to mothers who don't have primary custody of their kiddos. Especially those who don't involuntarily.

I'd cut her a break on this one. Keep offering time and cooperation and hope for the best.    

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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 06:44:31 AM »

The kids need to process the loss and grief in healthy ways. Perhaps they're taking it out on you because you're safe -- they know you will accept and tolerate their behavior because you're stable.

They may also feel they need to get your attention -- after being in long protracted legal battles, we can be very wary about speaking openly and addressing the obvious. If court was not hanging over your head all the time, how would you talk to the kids? What would you say?

SD12 has been very clingy with me and has actually started crying when I've been unable to give her sufficient undivided attention. She's never been like this and I'm at a loss. She wants her mom. At least, she wants the version of her mom she has in her head. Being the all good child meant endless positive regard and lots of attention at the expense of her other siblings when her mom was in the right mood. I can't even give her a close proximity to what she feels she needs and her ability to self sooth is pretty limited. Though if I'm being completely honest, I'm also frustrated with my own limited skill set for dealing with this sort of thing. I just want to go and hide until she feels better. (Yes, I'm in counseling to get better at this sort of thing. But it's a slow process.)

If there wasn't anything the court could do to punish us for it, I'd want her to know that her mom does what she does because she's sick and that it isn't a reflection on her.

It's hard on the days when he tells me that he has no self esteem or needs to be put on anti-depressants to help him cope. But I also try really hard not to "victimize" my son by allowing the anger and pity to creep up. I just try and validate that it would be hard and help him voice himself in whatever way he needs to. He's a great kid. His dad not loving him in a way that is acceptable is on Dad, not him.

Your kiddos' Mama losing a custody dispute probably triggered a lot of really, really, really hard emotions. She's suffering from a disorder where these kind of hard emotions are almost unbearable. She's coping in a way she knows how (by pushing it away). I don't know that it's so much about winning and losing as it is about saving face. She has to make you two the bad guys because owning up to that what makes us lose custody of our children is something she does not have the skill set to handle or deal with. You have someone who profoundly struggles in self worth and our society isn't very kind to mothers who don't have primary custody of their kiddos. Especially those who don't involuntarily.

I'd cut her a break on this one. Keep offering time and cooperation and hope for the best.   

Yes. I deal with a lot of anger and pity for them. My own mother was mentally ill and took off when I was 12 after my dad got custody. My mom didn't have a PD so the dynamics were a lot different. At the time I didn't feel the way these kids feel. But now as an adult I feel robbed of something. I think my own feelings make her behavior toward the kids pretty triggering.

I appreciate the way you always see people with BPD as people with normal feelings and just out of line responses to those feelings. It's a nice offset to my tendency to just see everything about their mom as completely invalid. It's a fine line to walk. SD12 sees nothing wrong at all with even the worst of her mom's behavior because she's completely in tune with the emotional motivations behind it. Maybe I can at least point SD12 in the right direction by telling her it's just too painful for her mom to come here to see them? It won't fix it but maybe it puts the focus where it belongs: mom's behavior instead of SD12's worth.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2015, 08:20:33 AM »

I don't totally understand what happens when we dig deep to feel empathy for people who abuse us. Or especially for people who abuse us. It seems counter-intuitive to feel empathy when we've been hurt or violated or abused or whatever x behavior is creating so much stress and tension. I do know that when I feel empathy for N/BPDx, my son seems to handle things better. In a strange way, empathy for N/BPDx isn't even about him. It's about me and S14.

I think it's because empathy makes me feel vulnerable, and that pulls S14 into my orbit, where he feels safe being vulnerable too. Even when it feels like I don't know how to handle something, that feeling of empathy brings us closer. It's contagious.

Maybe empathy is more difficult when we are unsure of a boundary. It can feel like that empathy is going to weaken our resolve and make us easy to hurt or manipulate. It's taken me years to figure out how to feel empathy and have good boundaries at the same time, a very wobbly process trying to get those two things to co-exist.

My son regresses when he is challenged emotionally. He just started at a new high school, and I noticed last night he brought out his stuffed animals, and is reading books he read during early middle school. At the same time, he's trying more adult behaviors, and I know the two things are related, this two steps forward, one step back.

Maybe SD12 is clinging in a similar way. To have a parent fall down on the job pushes her to step up and fill those shoes, and no matter what age, that can be scary. She may need praise from you about how she is handling herself. You have a story that parallels her own -- right down to the same age. Have you shared with her your own feelings about what you experienced? 
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 11:59:12 AM »

Maybe empathy is more difficult when we are unsure of a boundary. It can feel like that empathy is going to weaken our resolve and make us easy to hurt or manipulate. It's taken me years to figure out how to feel empathy and have good boundaries at the same time, a very wobbly process trying to get those two things to co-exist.

Yes, there is a lot of this for me. How can I still keep myself and my family safe while still  thinking of her as someone who is in a lot of pain. I think some of it is also my fear that SD12 won't get the difference between explaining and justifying. I don't want her to think I think the behavior is OK. It's very hard to validate without adding judgement.

Excerpt
Maybe SD12 is clinging in a similar way. To have a parent fall down on the job pushes her to step up and fill those shoes, and no matter what age, that can be scary. She may need praise from you about how she is handling herself. You have a story that parallels her own -- right down to the same age. Have you shared with her your own feelings about what you experienced? 

She's not handling herself at all. DH said she didn't even brush her hair before leaving for camp today. That is absolutely not like her. I think she has things she needs to talk to me about but can't get them out because she doesn't know how. She spent years learning to hide things. Seems it's suddenly coming to a head for her. Her patience for SS11's existence is at an all time low. He's being more generally obnoxious to get attention and that very much includes SD12's attention. But she's got nothing to give right now.

I'm taking her out to dinner just the two of us tonight. They leave tomorrow for a week at Grandma's. Hopefully the change of scenery will help.

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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 01:22:46 PM »

I don't know if this helps any, however, I'll give it a shot... .

I came to realize that bioMom with uBPD needed to split everything about us black.  She could barely tolerate visiting and sitting in the sidelines with us to watch SD13 during a swimming match.  I believe that she wanted to vanish everything from her mind that indicated to her that SD13 was capable of "having a life and existence that did not depend solely on bioMom."  She must have seen being here for visitations as "our world."  And I believe, coming down here felt to her like a betrayal of herself by being in "our world."

She rejected SD bringing any belongings to mom's, instead would replace what she needed.  She rejected the photos and updates that were sent.  She refused to watch a video of an award ceremony that we taped for her for SD to share with her on their visit.  She returned it 5 times.

She acted like sharing these things was offensive and painful to her as she would respond by sending pics as well... .  as if to say: "SEE!  She is happier here with me!"  The sharing started to feel less like a bioMom sharing, but more like her proving some point and out of anger and resentment.  As she did not share these things when SD accomplished them and was not with us... .she shared in response to us sharing... .and we actually had SD!

*sigh*  just all so sad
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livednlearned
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 02:19:12 PM »

I think she has things she needs to talk to me about but can't get them out because she doesn't know how.

That must be really hard to witness, Nope. Hard for her, hard for you, hard for everyone.

Dinner with SD12 sounds like a nice idea. Maybe it's different with girls, but with S14, our best bonding happens in the car. The destination never matters  Smiling (click to insert in post)  He opens up more and will chat away, then he goes into turtle mode once we're home, disappears into his room and computer and books.

You're in a tough position, being step momma. Just being a stable presence and someone who loves SD12 is a lot, you don't have to be the one to save the farm, although I certainly understand if you feel tugged to do that. I feel that way with my SO's middle daughter, who is so enmeshed with her mom it made me redefine what that word means. I have to keep reminding myself that she has a coach in her dad, I'm here to be LnL, here if she needs me.  
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