Out of Nowhere 2...

[MaroonLiquid]

This a continuation from my previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280675.0

You've got it... .don't chase her. If she is backing away, you just give her a chance to beat you off with a stick if you keep following!

Isn't that the truth and I've learned my lesson a long time ago there!  

Here's a leading question for you:

Have you ever had a good text/email exchange with her on anything but logistics? Especially if you initiated it?

'Cuz I'm not seeing much good that way here. Sometimes you get ignored. Sometimes you get a little bit of something. If it is 90% bad (or useless), stop trying!

What do you consider a "good text/email exchange?"  :)o you mean loving, caring, etc?  The last several months, we have had good text interaction with her occasional crud.  I don't respond to the "crud".  She is now learning that I'm "not playing" and changes the subject.

    I had a srange weekend emotionally on several fronts.  Things between my wife and I have been on the "uptick" for a while and this weekend with her pulling back, I found myself down emotionally.  She hasn't dysregulated but once in 2-3 months and our time together is about 95% really good.  I have a pretty good understanding of why she began to pull back from me last week (not being able to go out of town and see her dad), but it still bothered me a little.  I just wanted to spend time with the family.  I kept my son over the weekend and he asked to see them, but I just told him they already had plans and he was ok with that.  It seems the more I understand about BPD, the less I understand.     Again, I understand she was upset about not being able to go out of town.  I understand that she has "broad-brushed" men in her life the same way pretty much all of her life.  She thinks we are all no good and will abandon her at some point.  I still have trouble sometimes with the fact that pwBPD would rather shut someone out who is there for them, who loves them and wants to spend time with them.  That has to be hell.  I am better today, just sometimes it's tough and know we all have our "days".  

    My family had a huge family/friend gathering at my sister's (10 years younger than me) over the weekend and I couldn't bring myself to go.  I didn't want to be around a bunch of people who all put on a "happy face" and yet everyone's life is screwed up.  All the women in our family think they "know" it all and know what their kids "need to do" r/s wise.  My mom is one of them and relentless.  Always telling me to "let my wife go" and I just tell her to leave it alone.  I'm doing what I want to and what I feel is right.  When I'm around my family, I feel like I'm the topic of conversation and a "series of unfortunate events" that everyone can concentrate on so they don't have to deal with their own crap.  Maybe I'm being way too sensitive, but that was just the way I feel.  Plus, most of my sister's friends are all those "mid twenty something" trust fund babies (my sister is only one of them because her husband was left a bunch of money when his mom past away and his dad has always been wealthy) who are all driven by material things, crap that doesn't mean anything and pretty much grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth (a few didn't).  I'm not saying they aren't nice people as most of them are, but don't relate to that lifestyle very well and not a drinker.  I don't fit in to that group and I didn't have the energy to be around that environment.  Could I have gone?  Sure.  Would I have had a good time?  Maybe.    

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

I just wanted to spend time with the family.

You've made great strides in communication, and yet I think it is worth considering what Grey Kitty says above regarding texting.

When you text your wife of your longing to be with her and her children, it seems that you do fall into the strange trap of "playing the game." The one that she wins by withholding their presence from you.

Can you do the Grey Kitty experiment of texting nothing but logistics with her? And see what happens?

[MaroonLiquid]

I just wanted to spend time with the family.

You've made great strides in communication, and yet I think it is worth considering what Grey Kitty says above regarding texting.

When you text your wife of your longing to be with her and her children, it seems that you do fall into the strange trap of "playing the game." The one that she wins by withholding their presence from you.

Can you do the Grey Kitty experiment of texting nothing but logistics with her? And see what happens?

Yeah, I guess I need to start doing that.  I see how it does give her "power".  I'm a person who wants to spend time with people who want to spend time with me so I really don't understand that dynamic of BPD.  I'm not saying I don't accept that as part of her struggles, just difficult to identify with.  So should I only ask to get together with her when we are in person?  Or just stop asking all together and let her make that move? 

[KateCat]

You've got me curious.

What if you formulated a top-secret personal plan not to ask to get together at all for some particular time period (two weeks? three weeks?) What would happen?

[MaroonLiquid]

You've got me curious.

What if you formulated a top-secret personal plan not to ask to get together at all for some particular time period (two weeks? three weeks?) What would happen?

She has asked for us to get together (without me asking) several times in the last 3 months or so.  The last time was all of us going to see a movie together when I had my kids.  The time before that was when all of her kids were gone for the weekend and she was alone. 

[formflier]

Once you get together... .is she ok with you adding to... or changing the plans... .

So... she wants to see a movie... .and you go... .you suggest ice cream afterwards... does she get weird about that... or happy you are looking for more things to do together... ?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Once you get together... .is she ok with you adding to... or changing the plans... .

So... she wants to see a movie... .and you go... .you suggest ice cream afterwards... does she get weird about that... or happy you are looking for more things to do together... ?

FF

The last few times we've seen each other, I have asked if they wanted to go get something to eat after practice and she has said, "Yes."  As far as adding to/changing plans, most of the time she is good with it.  What is your though FF?  Explain both sides if you could... .

[formflier]

 

Focus your energy on creative... .fun... .loving things to do once you are together... .

Focus less on when you get together (or put no focus here at all)

Eventually... .you will be happier when you have a sense of "control" or contribution to the r/s... .focus on contributing to what you do after you get together... .rather than reaching out.

There is lots of trial and error to all this... .so... .give it a whirl...

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Focus your energy on creative... .fun... .loving things to do once you are together... .

Focus less on when you get together (or put no focus here at all)

Eventually... .you will be happier when you have a sense of "control" or contribution to the r/s... .focus on contributing to what you do after you get together... .rather than reaching out.

There is lots of trial and error to all this... .so... .give it a whirl...

FF

     I'm trying to understand this... .So I should never expect/ask to get together with her but when I do, be the fun-loving, creative one?  How does that work?  Isn't that a form of "walking on eggshells"?  What about the part of me that wants to take her out on a "date" just her and I?  There really isn't room for that with this.  Should I let that go and just assume that may not happen again for a long time?

     We have had a lot of good, fun times the last few months.  Only having communication once in three days hasn't happened in a while so I'm a little confused by her latest pull back.  I understand the issues with her dad is bothering her and that is probably the reason.  As I said, I know this isn't the "old" ST she used to pull where she was taking something out on me from a dysregulation.  Those are much easier to deal with now.  This is something different.  Maybe she is doing everything she can not to take whatever she is dealing with out on me?  is this a step forward for her to be reacting this way?  Is she trying to maybe find a "trigger point" in me?   

     I do have a sense of control at times when I refuse to fight/play her games.  I feel like it has changed her a bit.  I feel like we have gotten a lot closer the last few months with very little confrontation. 

[MaroonLiquid]

     I'm trying to understand this... .So I should never expect/ask to get together with her but when I do, be the fun-loving, creative one?  How does that work?  Isn't that a form of "walking on eggshells"?  What about the part of me that wants to take her out on a "date" just her and I?  There really isn't room for that with this.  Should I let that go and just assume that may not happen again for a long time?

     We have had a lot of good, fun times the last few months.  Only having communication once in three days hasn't happened in a while so I'm a little confused by her latest pull back.  I understand the issues with her dad is bothering her and that is probably the reason.  As I said, I know this isn't the "old" ST she used to pull where she was taking something out on me from a dysregulation.  Those are much easier to deal with now.  This is something different.  Maybe she is doing everything she can not to take whatever she is dealing with out on me?  is this a step forward for her to be reacting this way?  Is she trying to maybe find a "trigger point" in me?   

     I do have a sense of control at times when I refuse to fight/play her games.  I feel like it has changed her a bit.  I feel like we have gotten a lot closer the last few months with very little confrontation. 

I saw my wife last night (brought our daughter to practice) after not communicating hardly at all over the weekend.  After practice, we went to get a bite to eat together.  I praised our D for her hard work at practice and told her that it was showing.  My daughter gave me a hug, said, "Thank you." and gave me a big smile.  My wife smiled.  Our D was telling me about volleyball and how she needed to focus on that as well this next week as the season starts in a week and a half.  I offered to take her to work on her "game" with her this week on one of our "off days" with softball.  My wife thanked me for offering and I said, "I want our kids to be successful.  Our daughter has talent and needs practice time with both sports."  We worked out a day that worked for both of us to take her later this week.  We talked, laughed and she was giving me an update on the kids extra-curriculars.  She doesn't do that often.  We had a good time and that is becoming the norm now. 

[formflier]

 

ML,

My idea is that you focus your efforts (for now)... .on expanding your time together... .once you get together.

For whatever reason... you reaching out to initiate a get together doesn't work for your wife.

I see an additional nuance coming up where you get together... .stick your toe in the water... .see things are going good... .and plan another get together later... .

This is also a good step.

My comments were ideas of where you can focus your energy and trying... .eventually... .most likely months from now... .you can work on "reaching out" again... .and see if that is better.

Take a couple steps back... .look at your story... .there has been lots of progress... .you wife seems to be relaxing... .the return to baseline is quicker... .her "bait" doesn't work anymore... .

Very good stuff... .keep it up. 

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

My idea is that you focus your efforts (for now)... .on expanding your time together... .once you get together.

That worked last night by focusing on our daughter and what she needed.

For whatever reason... you reaching out to initiate a get together doesn't work for your wife.

I see an additional nuance coming up where you get together... .stick your toe in the water... .see things are going good... .and plan another get together later... .

This is also a good step.

My comments were ideas of where you can focus your energy and trying... .eventually... .most likely months from now... .you can work on "reaching out" again... .and see if that is better.

Take a couple steps back... .look at your story... .there has been lots of progress... .you wife seems to be relaxing... .the return to baseline is quicker... .her "bait" doesn't work anymore... .

Taking a couple of steps back, yes, there has been lots of progress!  Thank the Lord!  I've definitely noticed the "return to baseline" is much quicker and the fact that her "bait" doesn't work anymore is a great thing for the both of us.  I'm actually proud of myself for not taking it and her "casting it out there" is becoming less and less!

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

My idea is that you focus your efforts (for now)... .on expanding your time together... .once you get together.

That worked last night by focusing on our daughter and what she needed.

For whatever reason... you reaching out to initiate a get together doesn't work for your wife.

I see an additional nuance coming up where you get together... .stick your toe in the water... .see things are going good... .and plan another get together later... .

This is also a good step.

My comments were ideas of where you can focus your energy and trying... .eventually... .most likely months from now... .you can work on "reaching out" again... .and see if that is better.

Take a couple steps back... .look at your story... .there has been lots of progress... .you wife seems to be relaxing... .the return to baseline is quicker... .her "bait" doesn't work anymore... .

Taking a couple of steps back, yes, there has been lots of progress!  Thank the Lord!  I've definitely noticed the "return to baseline" is much quicker and the fact that her "bait" doesn't work anymore is a great thing for the both of us.  I'm actually proud of myself for not taking it and her "casting it out there" is becoming less and less!

I think one thing that I am missing with my wife is some "us" time (not necessarily sex, just a date or something).  When the kdis were all gone for the weekend and it was just us, that was the first time in 6 years (since our honeymoon) that we had time alone.  We both commented how awesome it was.  I think that desire is making me focus on the stuff I shouldn't be at times.  Does that make sense?  Not saying I don't want the kids around either, but just want some of the traditional ramoantic things, AND I'M A GUY!   

[MaroonLiquid]

     Why am I so stupid?  I called and talked to my wife, asked her opinion regarding an issue I'm dealing with and then vented.  Calling about anything of depth was probably my first mistake.  Venting was my second mistake.  

    Everything started off great... .I mentioned an issue and she said, "You know my feelings on it and that's one reason we aren't together anymore."  I chose to ignore it and not comment on it.  I said she was giving great advice and I needed to hear it.  She responded, "But you don't take it."     I chose to ignore it again.  Later in the conversation, she made the statement, "I'm done with the drama for today and I've got kids here that need taken care of so I'm going to go."  Talk about invalidating!   :'(. I said, "Ok, I understand."  Stupid me, I didn't take her clues... .I called back and said, "Hey, I just want to tell you again that I appreciate you're input.  You have really good intuition and as my wife, I have really concentrated on listening and contemplating what you tell me.  I just wanted to say thank you."  She said, "Look, I know you really like saying "Your Wife", you introduced me that way last night (yet she had no problem with it then) but that's not who I am to you anymore.  We are in the middle of a divorce."  I said, "Ok, I just wanted to say thank you."  She said, "Ok bye".  Talk about getting slapped down!  Geez.  I get so tired of being slapped down.  I am tired of not having anyone really to talk to about stuff.  Amazing though if I don't introduce her as my wife, she would get pissed.  Again, there is no yelling anymore, but still... .

[formflier]

 

The thing is... .you didn't slap back... .somehow... that is playing out in her mind... .and I bet it is a net positive for you.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

The thing is... .you didn't slap back... .somehow... that is playing out in her mind... .and I bet it is a net positive for you.

FF

Thanks FF.  I needed that.  I was beating myself up.  Why do you think that could be a net positive?

[Grey Kitty]

Have you ever had a good text/email exchange with her on anything but logistics? Especially if you initiated it?

'Cuz I'm not seeing much good that way here. Sometimes you get ignored. Sometimes you get a little bit of something. If it is 90% bad (or useless), stop trying!

What do you consider a "good text/email exchange?"  :)o you mean loving, caring, etc?  The last several months, we have had good text interaction with her occasional crud.  I don't respond to the "crud".  She is now learning that I'm "not playing" and changes the subject.

You are overthinking this one. Is it... .

*Ding*, you got a text message from her. You read it, smile, and are glad she sent it, because it answered something you wanted to know about, or otherwise made you feel good.

or is it... .

*Ding*, you got a text message from her, you read it. Sigh. Maybe roll your eyes. Debate with yourself if you need to respond to this crud, or if there is something in there you want to respond to / have to respond to.

... .as you have been working out... .if you are with her, and she is in a positive mood toward you, she is generally happy to spend more time with you, doing stuff with the kids, etc.

... .and if you are with her in person, you get enough non-verbal cues to know when it is a bad time to even suggest it.

... .or when in person, you can chat about friendly things, and enjoy her company, noticing if her mood starts to shift.

... .if you find yourself mostly getting crud that makes you feel badly by text message... .don't choose to communicate by text message as much.

... .if you find that phone calls often go badly (like the one where you vented to her)... .avoid that... .just stick to communicating with her in ways you have positive outcomes, and avoid the other kind(s).

I'm not suggesting you avoid/ignore her texts/calls... .just that when you have a choice, choose the way that has the best history of positive outcomes.

I called and talked to my wife, asked her opinion regarding an issue I'm dealing with and then vented.  Calling about anything of depth was probably my first mistake.  Venting was my second mistake. 

Hey dude, be gentle on yourself here. You are learning. Not that long ago you probably would have done the SAME thing, and be posting "Why did my wife dysregulate on the phone just now?" instead.

There is a period of time where you have learned (intellectually) that there is a better way to do things... .but still slip up sometimes... .then recover quickly, and with the reminder... .don't do it again. Eventually the new and improved way feels natural and easy, but that takes a long time and lots of practice!

[MaroonLiquid]

I've had a really crappy day dealing with people's crap.  Then my wife brings it down further.  Why did I think that I could expect her to brighten my day a little by talking to her?  I got too comfortable again I guess and let my guard down.  Up until about 13-14 months ago she was always someone I could count on to be there to make my day better when I got home.  99 times out 100 she would greet me with a smile and a kiss.  These are the moments I feel alone.  These are the moments that are hard.  We are expected to validate at the drop of a hat.  Sorry just venting.

[MaroonLiquid]

After sleeping last night, I feel better today.  I went back to a conversation my wife was having with our daughter the other night over dinner about having lunch with a woman friend tomorrow who is a divorced/getting divorced (not sure if it's final yet).  She has lunch with 2 women regularly who are going through this and it's always on a Friday.  That was our day to have lunch and spend time together.  I see a pattern that when she brings up divorce or "hits me" with it, she has either been around them or going to be around them.  I don't know how I didn't recognize the mirroring and splitting with her.  I guess in order to relate to them , she has to split me black.  When she isn't around them, she is usually caring, loving, talks about us, etc.  It is so difficult to understand how they don't see their own behavior and how ass backwards it is at times.     

[Fian]

I have read that divorce acts like an infectious disease.  If you know someone that has recently gotten a divorce, there is a higher chance that you will get a divorce too.  So I can definitely see how her circle of friends are encouraging her to get a divorce.

[MaroonLiquid]

So I can definitely see how her circle of friends are encouraging her to get a divorce.

Especially when she doesn't/isn't hanging around people who encourage her to work on the marriage.

Her threats with divorce don't bother me really anymore as I see them for what they are.  Almost a way for her to get me to "back off".  I'm just looking forward to the day that that "threat" goes away and she moves on to something else thats healthy and constructive regarding herself and us. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Since the last conversation with my wife yesterday talking about our  "divorce", we haven't talked.  She texted me about 5 minutes ago for a question that she already had the answer to.  I answered it politely and said I was looking forward to working with our daughter on volleyball tomorrow.  Do they do this out of guilt and can't just say sorry?  Kind of like testing the waters?

[MaroonLiquid]

Since the last conversation with my wife yesterday talking about our  "divorce", we haven't talked.  She texted me about 5 minutes ago for a question that she already had the answer to.  I answered it politely and said I was looking forward to working with our daughter on volleyball tomorrow.  Do they do this out of guilt and can't just say sorry?  Kind of like testing the waters?

     So yesterday and today have gone very well with my wife and all the kids together.  Yesterday, I took our daughter and plaited with her on volleyball for a couple of hours.  We then went back to her house.  We got tired and she asked me to lay down with her and take a nap.  We laid down and listened to her for about 45 minutes talk about some things (traveling, tiny houses, etc) and validated her on all the issues.  Never interjected unless she asked.  There was one point where I had my arm around her and she told me, ":)on't do that please, I don't want to be rubbed on."  I said, "Ok I understand.  No problem."  Then a few minutes later she asked me to rub her back for a while.     .  Was she testing me or something.  Just very strange.  We ended up falling asleep with me holding her for about 2 hours.  Later we (her kids, her and I) went to dinner and it was a lot of fun.  We went back to her place and she told her kids to go to bed (in their own rooms) several times and they didn't.  Because they all take turns sleeping in her room with her, it was almost like they were stalling.  Her oldest daughter went to bed in her room and gave us both a hug and told me she loved me.  A bit later, the youngest came out and said, "Goodnight mom." And went into my wife's room.  My wife said, "Are you sleeping with me tonight?" and she said yes.  I wonder if they do it psychologically to "protect" their mom, or turf, or whatever.  I just acted like it was no big deal.  So my wife looked at me and said, "I'm going to bed." And I said, "Yeah, I'm getting tired."  She gave me the "BPD side hug with three pats on the back" and I walked out the door.

     Today, I picked up my kids and all eight of us spent the day together.  I agreed to take her oldest son and practice driving so that he can get his license this week.  We did that for about 2 hours.  We met everyone else (they were shopping) and got a bite to eat.  We went back to my wife's house and watched a movie.  After the movie, I got up to leave and asked if I could borrow some movies to bring home and watch.  She said, "Of course."  I grabbed a few, and she then said, "I guess I'll never see those again."  I was thinking, "Seriously?  This craps half mine"  I was thinking when I left that it could have triggered her that I took 6 movies and she had it in her mind that was "cleaning her out".   . Instead of going down that rabbit hole, I just said, "I'll bring them back once I'm done watching them."  I then changed the subject.  As I was leaving, she gave me even less of a hug then yesterday.  Really strange.  Sometimes I'm thinking she is trying to trigger me.  Thoughts?  I won't go there with her, but will be loving and patient in my approach.  We have had a great few months with no fighting to speak of.  In fact, we have had about 95% positive to great times.  I'm thankful for that... .

[Fian]

My guess is the reason why she is giving you mixed signals is that she is not sure what she wants.  A part of her is enjoying being with you, the other part of her still wants a divorce.  If she gives too strong of a message in either direction she feels guilty (for leading you on since she is planning divorce, or for being harsh to you when you are being so nice) and pulls back.

[formflier]

 

Or... .when she is calm... .she realizes that you are consistent... and she is not.

As their "lenses" on life get clearer and clearer... .they still want to believe that the other person is the one living in OZ... .and they are in Kansas... .BUT... .the clearer lenses show them it isn't true... .they are the OZ person... .and the other is in Kansas.

That has got to be very uncomfortable... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

     Hmmmm.  Makes sense.  The truth is never easy to deal with.  One thing I forgot to mention was last night, our daughter asked if my daughters could spend the night and got to church this morning.  The look my wife gave her in the rear view mirror was not only transparent but funny.  I don't know how I kept from laughing.  She looked at her and shook her head as if to say, "If we do that, I have to explain who they are and that doesn't fit into the "reality" I've told people."  Pretty funny.

    Also, Taking some time to think today (I shouldn't do that I know), I realized that she started to pull back a little when last time we were intimate and our oldest some knocked on the door in the middle of it and the door was locked.  Without giving too much information, we weren't in the middle of sex, but we were making out.  She told him that "she was asleep", but being 18, he isn't stupid  !  We still spent the night together and it was amazing, but maybe that has something to do with it?  

[formflier]

 

In the future... .I would "jump" on those opportunities to say "sure... .she can go to church... " and let her do the backpedaling... .

That's a bit "mean"... but funny too.

I see a long road of slow improvement up to this point.  I still think when school starts that will be new dynamic.  One to keep an eye on... .see where you can insert yourself.

As long as you are cool with current state of things... .and slow improvement... .keep letting what you are doing ride... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

In the future... .I would "jump" on those opportunities to say "sure... .she can go to church... " and let her do the backpedaling... .

That's a bit "mean"... but funny too.

I see a long road of slow improvement up to this point.  I still think when school starts that will be new dynamic.  One to keep an eye on... .see where you can insert yourself.

As long as you are cool with current state of things... .and slow improvement... .keep letting what you are doing ride... .

FF

So my wife and I went grocery shopping together and then came back to her house.  I was fixing our daughters phone (restoring the software) and noticed a to-do list on her desk in her office. The 13th item on the list is finalizing our divorce.  I have acted like I didn't see it but out of a list of 24th, I'm more than halfway down.  At least I know where our divorce ranks.   .  Funny.

[Grey Kitty]

Stop looking for meaning in random noise.

Your wife goes up and down, push, and pull.

You *might* be able to identify a specific triggering event that started it, but one "trigger" isn't really a cause.

You aren't going to be able to do much about predicting it... .but you do know how to deal with it as it happens. Focus on what you do in her various moods... .not what sort of magical sequence put her into them.

[MaroonLiquid]

Stop looking for meaning in random noise.

Your wife goes up and down, push, and pull.

You *might* be able to identify a specific triggering event that started it, but one "trigger" isn't really a cause.

You aren't going to be able to do much about predicting it... .but you do know how to deal with it as it happens. Focus on what you do in her various moods... .not what sort of magical sequence put her into them.

Yeah, for me that's hard.   

And what was higher up on my wife's to-do list (ranked 4th) was "counseling at church".  I thought that was interesting considering she has been flat out against it with us.  Now, I know this is different (figure she means just her), but I will be surprised if she actually makes an appointment.  The other question is how will they counsel her knowing she is married.  Another thing I shouldn't worry about I know.  I'm a very impatient person by nature and sometimes I struggle with the slow pace.  It's these times that I wonder if she will come around to a healthy place regarding our r/s.