Out of Nowhere 2...

[Depression = 72% of members]

This a continuation from my previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280675.0

You've got it... .don't chase her. If she is backing away, you just give her a chance to beat you off with a stick if you keep following!

Isn't that the truth and I've learned my lesson a long time ago there!  

Here's a leading question for you:

Have you ever had a good text/email exchange with her on anything but logistics? Especially if you initiated it?

'Cuz I'm not seeing much good that way here. Sometimes you get ignored. Sometimes you get a little bit of something. If it is 90% bad (or useless), stop trying!

What do you consider a "good text/email exchange?"  :)o you mean loving, caring, etc?  The last several months, we have had good text interaction with her occasional crud.  I don't respond to the "crud".  She is now learning that I'm "not playing" and changes the subject.

    I had a srange weekend emotionally on several fronts.  Things between my wife and I have been on the "uptick" for a while and this weekend with her pulling back, I found myself down emotionally.  She hasn't dysregulated but once in 2-3 months and our time together is about 95% really good.  I have a pretty good understanding of why she began to pull back from me last week (not being able to go out of town and see her dad), but it still bothered me a little.  I just wanted to spend time with the family.  I kept my son over the weekend and he asked to see them, but I just told him they already had plans and he was ok with that.  It seems the more I understand about BPD, the less I understand.     Again, I understand she was upset about not being able to go out of town.  I understand that she has "broad-brushed" men in her life the same way pretty much all of her life.  She thinks we are all no good and will abandon her at some point.  I still have trouble sometimes with the fact that pwBPD would rather shut someone out who is there for them, who loves them and wants to spend time with them.  That has to be hell.  I am better today, just sometimes it's tough and know we all have our "days".  

    My family had a huge family/friend gathering at my sister's (10 years younger than me) over the weekend and I couldn't bring myself to go.  I didn't want to be around a bunch of people who all put on a "happy face" and yet everyone's life is screwed up.  All the women in our family think they "know" it all and know what their kids "need to do" r/s wise.  My mom is one of them and relentless.  Always telling me to "let my wife go" and I just tell her to leave it alone.  I'm doing what I want to and what I feel is right.  When I'm around my family, I feel like I'm the topic of conversation and a "series of unfortunate events" that everyone can concentrate on so they don't have to deal with their own crap.  Maybe I'm being way too sensitive, but that was just the way I feel.  Plus, most of my sister's friends are all those "mid twenty something" trust fund babies (my sister is only one of them because her husband was left a bunch of money when his mom past away and his dad has always been wealthy) who are all driven by material things, crap that doesn't mean anything and pretty much grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth (a few didn't).  I'm not saying they aren't nice people as most of them are, but don't relate to that lifestyle very well and not a drinker.  I don't fit in to that group and I didn't have the energy to be around that environment.  Could I have gone?  Sure.  Would I have had a good time?  Maybe.    

[MaroonLiquid]

This a continuation from my previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280675.0

You've got it... .don't chase her. If she is backing away, you just give her a chance to beat you off with a stick if you keep following!

Isn't that the truth and I've learned my lesson a long time ago there!  

Here's a leading question for you:

Have you ever had a good text/email exchange with her on anything but logistics? Especially if you initiated it?

'Cuz I'm not seeing much good that way here. Sometimes you get ignored. Sometimes you get a little bit of something. If it is 90% bad (or useless), stop trying!

What do you consider a "good text/email exchange?"  :)o you mean loving, caring, etc?  The last several months, we have had good text interaction with her occasional crud.  I don't respond to the "crud".  She is now learning that I'm "not playing" and changes the subject.

    I had a srange weekend emotionally on several fronts.  Things between my wife and I have been on the "uptick" for a while and this weekend with her pulling back, I found myself down emotionally.  She hasn't dysregulated but once in 2-3 months and our time together is about 95% really good.  I have a pretty good understanding of why she began to pull back from me last week (not being able to go out of town and see her dad), but it still bothered me a little.  I just wanted to spend time with the family.  I kept my son over the weekend and he asked to see them, but I just told him they already had plans and he was ok with that.  It seems the more I understand about BPD, the less I understand.     Again, I understand she was upset about not being able to go out of town.  I understand that she has "broad-brushed" men in her life the same way pretty much all of her life.  She thinks we are all no good and will abandon her at some point.  I still have trouble sometimes with the fact that pwBPD would rather shut someone out who is there for them, who loves them and wants to spend time with them.  That has to be hell.  I am better today, just sometimes it's tough and know we all have our "days".  

    My family had a huge family/friend gathering at my sister's (10 years younger than me) over the weekend and I couldn't bring myself to go.  I didn't want to be around a bunch of people who all put on a "happy face" and yet everyone's life is screwed up.  All the women in our family think they "know" it all and know what their kids "need to do" r/s wise.  My mom is one of them and relentless.  Always telling me to "let my wife go" and I just tell her to leave it alone.  I'm doing what I want to and what I feel is right.  When I'm around my family, I feel like I'm the topic of conversation and a "series of unfortunate events" that everyone can concentrate on so they don't have to deal with their own crap.  Maybe I'm being way too sensitive, but that was just the way I feel.  Plus, most of my sister's friends are all those "mid twenty something" trust fund babies (my sister is only one of them because her husband was left a bunch of money when his mom past away and his dad has always been wealthy) who are all driven by material things, crap that doesn't mean anything and pretty much grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth (a few didn't).  I'm not saying they aren't nice people as most of them are, but don't relate to that lifestyle very well and not a drinker.  I don't fit in to that group and I didn't have the energy to be around that environment.  Could I have gone?  Sure.  Would I have had a good time?  Maybe.    

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

I just wanted to spend time with the family.

You've made great strides in communication, and yet I think it is worth considering what Grey Kitty says above regarding texting.

When you text your wife of your longing to be with her and her children, it seems that you do fall into the strange trap of "playing the game." The one that she wins by withholding their presence from you.

Can you do the Grey Kitty experiment of texting nothing but logistics with her? And see what happens?

[MaroonLiquid]

I just wanted to spend time with the family.

You've made great strides in communication, and yet I think it is worth considering what Grey Kitty says above regarding texting.

When you text your wife of your longing to be with her and her children, it seems that you do fall into the strange trap of "playing the game." The one that she wins by withholding their presence from you.

Can you do the Grey Kitty experiment of texting nothing but logistics with her? And see what happens?

Yeah, I guess I need to start doing that.  I see how it does give her "power".  I'm a person who wants to spend time with people who want to spend time with me so I really don't understand that dynamic of BPD.  I'm not saying I don't accept that as part of her struggles, just difficult to identify with.  So should I only ask to get together with her when we are in person?  Or just stop asking all together and let her make that move? 

[KateCat]

You've got me curious.

What if you formulated a top-secret personal plan not to ask to get together at all for some particular time period (two weeks? three weeks?) What would happen?

[MaroonLiquid]

You've got me curious.

What if you formulated a top-secret personal plan not to ask to get together at all for some particular time period (two weeks? three weeks?) What would happen?

She has asked for us to get together (without me asking) several times in the last 3 months or so.  The last time was all of us going to see a movie together when I had my kids.  The time before that was when all of her kids were gone for the weekend and she was alone. 

[formflier]

Once you get together... .is she ok with you adding to... or changing the plans... .

So... she wants to see a movie... .and you go... .you suggest ice cream afterwards... does she get weird about that... or happy you are looking for more things to do together... ?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Once you get together... .is she ok with you adding to... or changing the plans... .

So... she wants to see a movie... .and you go... .you suggest ice cream afterwards... does she get weird about that... or happy you are looking for more things to do together... ?

FF

The last few times we've seen each other, I have asked if they wanted to go get something to eat after practice and she has said, "Yes."  As far as adding to/changing plans, most of the time she is good with it.  What is your though FF?  Explain both sides if you could... .

[formflier]

 

Focus your energy on creative... .fun... .loving things to do once you are together... .

Focus less on when you get together (or put no focus here at all)

Eventually... .you will be happier when you have a sense of "control" or contribution to the r/s... .focus on contributing to what you do after you get together... .rather than reaching out.

There is lots of trial and error to all this... .so... .give it a whirl...

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Focus your energy on creative... .fun... .loving things to do once you are together... .

Focus less on when you get together (or put no focus here at all)

Eventually... .you will be happier when you have a sense of "control" or contribution to the r/s... .focus on contributing to what you do after you get together... .rather than reaching out.

There is lots of trial and error to all this... .so... .give it a whirl...

FF

     I'm trying to understand this... .So I should never expect/ask to get together with her but when I do, be the fun-loving, creative one?  How does that work?  Isn't that a form of "walking on eggshells"?  What about the part of me that wants to take her out on a "date" just her and I?  There really isn't room for that with this.  Should I let that go and just assume that may not happen again for a long time?

     We have had a lot of good, fun times the last few months.  Only having communication once in three days hasn't happened in a while so I'm a little confused by her latest pull back.  I understand the issues with her dad is bothering her and that is probably the reason.  As I said, I know this isn't the "old" ST she used to pull where she was taking something out on me from a dysregulation.  Those are much easier to deal with now.  This is something different.  Maybe she is doing everything she can not to take whatever she is dealing with out on me?  is this a step forward for her to be reacting this way?  Is she trying to maybe find a "trigger point" in me?   

     I do have a sense of control at times when I refuse to fight/play her games.  I feel like it has changed her a bit.  I feel like we have gotten a lot closer the last few months with very little confrontation. 

[MaroonLiquid]

     I'm trying to understand this... .So I should never expect/ask to get together with her but when I do, be the fun-loving, creative one?  How does that work?  Isn't that a form of "walking on eggshells"?  What about the part of me that wants to take her out on a "date" just her and I?  There really isn't room for that with this.  Should I let that go and just assume that may not happen again for a long time?

     We have had a lot of good, fun times the last few months.  Only having communication once in three days hasn't happened in a while so I'm a little confused by her latest pull back.  I understand the issues with her dad is bothering her and that is probably the reason.  As I said, I know this isn't the "old" ST she used to pull where she was taking something out on me from a dysregulation.  Those are much easier to deal with now.  This is something different.  Maybe she is doing everything she can not to take whatever she is dealing with out on me?  is this a step forward for her to be reacting this way?  Is she trying to maybe find a "trigger point" in me?   

     I do have a sense of control at times when I refuse to fight/play her games.  I feel like it has changed her a bit.  I feel like we have gotten a lot closer the last few months with very little confrontation. 

I saw my wife last night (brought our daughter to practice) after not communicating hardly at all over the weekend.  After practice, we went to get a bite to eat together.  I praised our D for her hard work at practice and told her that it was showing.  My daughter gave me a hug, said, "Thank you." and gave me a big smile.  My wife smiled.  Our D was telling me about volleyball and how she needed to focus on that as well this next week as the season starts in a week and a half.  I offered to take her to work on her "game" with her this week on one of our "off days" with softball.  My wife thanked me for offering and I said, "I want our kids to be successful.  Our daughter has talent and needs practice time with both sports."  We worked out a day that worked for both of us to take her later this week.  We talked, laughed and she was giving me an update on the kids extra-curriculars.  She doesn't do that often.  We had a good time and that is becoming the norm now. 

[formflier]

 

ML,

My idea is that you focus your efforts (for now)... .on expanding your time together... .once you get together.

For whatever reason... you reaching out to initiate a get together doesn't work for your wife.

I see an additional nuance coming up where you get together... .stick your toe in the water... .see things are going good... .and plan another get together later... .

This is also a good step.

My comments were ideas of where you can focus your energy and trying... .eventually... .most likely months from now... .you can work on "reaching out" again... .and see if that is better.

Take a couple steps back... .look at your story... .there has been lots of progress... .you wife seems to be relaxing... .the return to baseline is quicker... .her "bait" doesn't work anymore... .

Very good stuff... .keep it up. 

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

My idea is that you focus your efforts (for now)... .on expanding your time together... .once you get together.

That worked last night by focusing on our daughter and what she needed.

For whatever reason... you reaching out to initiate a get together doesn't work for your wife.

I see an additional nuance coming up where you get together... .stick your toe in the water... .see things are going good... .and plan another get together later... .

This is also a good step.

My comments were ideas of where you can focus your energy and trying... .eventually... .most likely months from now... .you can work on "reaching out" again... .and see if that is better.

Take a couple steps back... .look at your story... .there has been lots of progress... .you wife seems to be relaxing... .the return to baseline is quicker... .her "bait" doesn't work anymore... .

Taking a couple of steps back, yes, there has been lots of progress!  Thank the Lord!  I've definitely noticed the "return to baseline" is much quicker and the fact that her "bait" doesn't work anymore is a great thing for the both of us.  I'm actually proud of myself for not taking it and her "casting it out there" is becoming less and less!

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

My idea is that you focus your efforts (for now)... .on expanding your time together... .once you get together.

That worked last night by focusing on our daughter and what she needed.

For whatever reason... you reaching out to initiate a get together doesn't work for your wife.

I see an additional nuance coming up where you get together... .stick your toe in the water... .see things are going good... .and plan another get together later... .

This is also a good step.

My comments were ideas of where you can focus your energy and trying... .eventually... .most likely months from now... .you can work on "reaching out" again... .and see if that is better.

Take a couple steps back... .look at your story... .there has been lots of progress... .you wife seems to be relaxing... .the return to baseline is quicker... .her "bait" doesn't work anymore... .

Taking a couple of steps back, yes, there has been lots of progress!  Thank the Lord!  I've definitely noticed the "return to baseline" is much quicker and the fact that her "bait" doesn't work anymore is a great thing for the both of us.  I'm actually proud of myself for not taking it and her "casting it out there" is becoming less and less!

I think one thing that I am missing with my wife is some "us" time (not necessarily sex, just a date or something).  When the kdis were all gone for the weekend and it was just us, that was the first time in 6 years (since our honeymoon) that we had time alone.  We both commented how awesome it was.  I think that desire is making me focus on the stuff I shouldn't be at times.  Does that make sense?  Not saying I don't want the kids around either, but just want some of the traditional ramoantic things, AND I'M A GUY!   

[MaroonLiquid]

     Why am I so stupid?  I called and talked to my wife, asked her opinion regarding an issue I'm dealing with and then vented.  Calling about anything of depth was probably my first mistake.  Venting was my second mistake.  

    Everything started off great... .I mentioned an issue and she said, "You know my feelings on it and that's one reason we aren't together anymore."  I chose to ignore it and not comment on it.  I said she was giving great advice and I needed to hear it.  She responded, "But you don't take it."     I chose to ignore it again.  Later in the conversation, she made the statement, "I'm done with the drama for today and I've got kids here that need taken care of so I'm going to go."  Talk about invalidating!   :'(. I said, "Ok, I understand."  Stupid me, I didn't take her clues... .I called back and said, "Hey, I just want to tell you again that I appreciate you're input.  You have really good intuition and as my wife, I have really concentrated on listening and contemplating what you tell me.  I just wanted to say thank you."  She said, "Look, I know you really like saying "Your Wife", you introduced me that way last night (yet she had no problem with it then) but that's not who I am to you anymore.  We are in the middle of a divorce."  I said, "Ok, I just wanted to say thank you."  She said, "Ok bye".  Talk about getting slapped down!  Geez.  I get so tired of being slapped down.  I am tired of not having anyone really to talk to about stuff.  Amazing though if I don't introduce her as my wife, she would get pissed.  Again, there is no yelling anymore, but still... .

[formflier]

 

The thing is... .you didn't slap back... .somehow... that is playing out in her mind... .and I bet it is a net positive for you.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

The thing is... .you didn't slap back... .somehow... that is playing out in her mind... .and I bet it is a net positive for you.

FF

Thanks FF.  I needed that.  I was beating myself up.  Why do you think that could be a net positive?

[Grey Kitty]

Have you ever had a good text/email exchange with her on anything but logistics? Especially if you initiated it?

'Cuz I'm not seeing much good that way here. Sometimes you get ignored. Sometimes you get a little bit of something. If it is 90% bad (or useless), stop trying!

What do you consider a "good text/email exchange?"  :)o you mean loving, caring, etc?  The last several months, we have had good text interaction with her occasional crud.  I don't respond to the "crud".  She is now learning that I'm "not playing" and changes the subject.

You are overthinking this one. Is it... .

*Ding*, you got a text message from her. You read it, smile, and are glad she sent it, because it answered something you wanted to know about, or otherwise made you feel good.

or is it... .

*Ding*, you got a text message from her, you read it. Sigh. Maybe roll your eyes. Debate with yourself if you need to respond to this crud, or if there is something in there you want to respond to / have to respond to.

... .as you have been working out... .if you are with her, and she is in a positive mood toward you, she is generally happy to spend more time with you, doing stuff with the kids, etc.

... .and if you are with her in person, you get enough non-verbal cues to know when it is a bad time to even suggest it.

... .or when in person, you can chat about friendly things, and enjoy her company, noticing if her mood starts to shift.

... .if you find yourself mostly getting crud that makes you feel badly by text message... .don't choose to communicate by text message as much.

... .if you find that phone calls often go badly (like the one where you vented to her)... .avoid that... .just stick to communicating with her in ways you have positive outcomes, and avoid the other kind(s).

I'm not suggesting you avoid/ignore her texts/calls... .just that when you have a choice, choose the way that has the best history of positive outcomes.

I called and talked to my wife, asked her opinion regarding an issue I'm dealing with and then vented.  Calling about anything of depth was probably my first mistake.  Venting was my second mistake. 

Hey dude, be gentle on yourself here. You are learning. Not that long ago you probably would have done the SAME thing, and be posting "Why did my wife dysregulate on the phone just now?" instead.

There is a period of time where you have learned (intellectually) that there is a better way to do things... .but still slip up sometimes... .then recover quickly, and with the reminder... .don't do it again. Eventually the new and improved way feels natural and easy, but that takes a long time and lots of practice!

[MaroonLiquid]

I've had a really crappy day dealing with people's crap.  Then my wife brings it down further.  Why did I think that I could expect her to brighten my day a little by talking to her?  I got too comfortable again I guess and let my guard down.  Up until about 13-14 months ago she was always someone I could count on to be there to make my day better when I got home.  99 times out 100 she would greet me with a smile and a kiss.  These are the moments I feel alone.  These are the moments that are hard.  We are expected to validate at the drop of a hat.  Sorry just venting.

[MaroonLiquid]

After sleeping last night, I feel better today.  I went back to a conversation my wife was having with our daughter the other night over dinner about having lunch with a woman friend tomorrow who is a divorced/getting divorced (not sure if it's final yet).  She has lunch with 2 women regularly who are going through this and it's always on a Friday.  That was our day to have lunch and spend time together.  I see a pattern that when she brings up divorce or "hits me" with it, she has either been around them or going to be around them.  I don't know how I didn't recognize the mirroring and splitting with her.  I guess in order to relate to them , she has to split me black.  When she isn't around them, she is usually caring, loving, talks about us, etc.  It is so difficult to understand how they don't see their own behavior and how ass backwards it is at times.     

[Fian]

I have read that divorce acts like an infectious disease.  If you know someone that has recently gotten a divorce, there is a higher chance that you will get a divorce too.  So I can definitely see how her circle of friends are encouraging her to get a divorce.

[MaroonLiquid]

So I can definitely see how her circle of friends are encouraging her to get a divorce.

Especially when she doesn't/isn't hanging around people who encourage her to work on the marriage.

Her threats with divorce don't bother me really anymore as I see them for what they are.  Almost a way for her to get me to "back off".  I'm just looking forward to the day that that "threat" goes away and she moves on to something else thats healthy and constructive regarding herself and us. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Since the last conversation with my wife yesterday talking about our  "divorce", we haven't talked.  She texted me about 5 minutes ago for a question that she already had the answer to.  I answered it politely and said I was looking forward to working with our daughter on volleyball tomorrow.  Do they do this out of guilt and can't just say sorry?  Kind of like testing the waters?

[MaroonLiquid]

Since the last conversation with my wife yesterday talking about our  "divorce", we haven't talked.  She texted me about 5 minutes ago for a question that she already had the answer to.  I answered it politely and said I was looking forward to working with our daughter on volleyball tomorrow.  Do they do this out of guilt and can't just say sorry?  Kind of like testing the waters?

     So yesterday and today have gone very well with my wife and all the kids together.  Yesterday, I took our daughter and plaited with her on volleyball for a couple of hours.  We then went back to her house.  We got tired and she asked me to lay down with her and take a nap.  We laid down and listened to her for about 45 minutes talk about some things (traveling, tiny houses, etc) and validated her on all the issues.  Never interjected unless she asked.  There was one point where I had my arm around her and she told me, ":)on't do that please, I don't want to be rubbed on."  I said, "Ok I understand.  No problem."  Then a few minutes later she asked me to rub her back for a while.     .  Was she testing me or something.  Just very strange.  We ended up falling asleep with me holding her for about 2 hours.  Later we (her kids, her and I) went to dinner and it was a lot of fun.  We went back to her place and she told her kids to go to bed (in their own rooms) several times and they didn't.  Because they all take turns sleeping in her room with her, it was almost like they were stalling.  Her oldest daughter went to bed in her room and gave us both a hug and told me she loved me.  A bit later, the youngest came out and said, "Goodnight mom." And went into my wife's room.  My wife said, "Are you sleeping with me tonight?" and she said yes.  I wonder if they do it psychologically to "protect" their mom, or turf, or whatever.  I just acted like it was no big deal.  So my wife looked at me and said, "I'm going to bed." And I said, "Yeah, I'm getting tired."  She gave me the "BPD side hug with three pats on the back" and I walked out the door.

     Today, I picked up my kids and all eight of us spent the day together.  I agreed to take her oldest son and practice driving so that he can get his license this week.  We did that for about 2 hours.  We met everyone else (they were shopping) and got a bite to eat.  We went back to my wife's house and watched a movie.  After the movie, I got up to leave and asked if I could borrow some movies to bring home and watch.  She said, "Of course."  I grabbed a few, and she then said, "I guess I'll never see those again."  I was thinking, "Seriously?  This craps half mine"  I was thinking when I left that it could have triggered her that I took 6 movies and she had it in her mind that was "cleaning her out".   . Instead of going down that rabbit hole, I just said, "I'll bring them back once I'm done watching them."  I then changed the subject.  As I was leaving, she gave me even less of a hug then yesterday.  Really strange.  Sometimes I'm thinking she is trying to trigger me.  Thoughts?  I won't go there with her, but will be loving and patient in my approach.  We have had a great few months with no fighting to speak of.  In fact, we have had about 95% positive to great times.  I'm thankful for that... .

[Fian]

My guess is the reason why she is giving you mixed signals is that she is not sure what she wants.  A part of her is enjoying being with you, the other part of her still wants a divorce.  If she gives too strong of a message in either direction she feels guilty (for leading you on since she is planning divorce, or for being harsh to you when you are being so nice) and pulls back.

[formflier]

 

Or... .when she is calm... .she realizes that you are consistent... and she is not.

As their "lenses" on life get clearer and clearer... .they still want to believe that the other person is the one living in OZ... .and they are in Kansas... .BUT... .the clearer lenses show them it isn't true... .they are the OZ person... .and the other is in Kansas.

That has got to be very uncomfortable... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

     Hmmmm.  Makes sense.  The truth is never easy to deal with.  One thing I forgot to mention was last night, our daughter asked if my daughters could spend the night and got to church this morning.  The look my wife gave her in the rear view mirror was not only transparent but funny.  I don't know how I kept from laughing.  She looked at her and shook her head as if to say, "If we do that, I have to explain who they are and that doesn't fit into the "reality" I've told people."  Pretty funny.

    Also, Taking some time to think today (I shouldn't do that I know), I realized that she started to pull back a little when last time we were intimate and our oldest some knocked on the door in the middle of it and the door was locked.  Without giving too much information, we weren't in the middle of sex, but we were making out.  She told him that "she was asleep", but being 18, he isn't stupid  !  We still spent the night together and it was amazing, but maybe that has something to do with it?  

[formflier]

 

In the future... .I would "jump" on those opportunities to say "sure... .she can go to church... " and let her do the backpedaling... .

That's a bit "mean"... but funny too.

I see a long road of slow improvement up to this point.  I still think when school starts that will be new dynamic.  One to keep an eye on... .see where you can insert yourself.

As long as you are cool with current state of things... .and slow improvement... .keep letting what you are doing ride... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

In the future... .I would "jump" on those opportunities to say "sure... .she can go to church... " and let her do the backpedaling... .

That's a bit "mean"... but funny too.

I see a long road of slow improvement up to this point.  I still think when school starts that will be new dynamic.  One to keep an eye on... .see where you can insert yourself.

As long as you are cool with current state of things... .and slow improvement... .keep letting what you are doing ride... .

FF

So my wife and I went grocery shopping together and then came back to her house.  I was fixing our daughters phone (restoring the software) and noticed a to-do list on her desk in her office. The 13th item on the list is finalizing our divorce.  I have acted like I didn't see it but out of a list of 24th, I'm more than halfway down.  At least I know where our divorce ranks.   .  Funny.

[Grey Kitty]

Stop looking for meaning in random noise.

Your wife goes up and down, push, and pull.

You *might* be able to identify a specific triggering event that started it, but one "trigger" isn't really a cause.

You aren't going to be able to do much about predicting it... .but you do know how to deal with it as it happens. Focus on what you do in her various moods... .not what sort of magical sequence put her into them.

[MaroonLiquid]

Stop looking for meaning in random noise.

Your wife goes up and down, push, and pull.

You *might* be able to identify a specific triggering event that started it, but one "trigger" isn't really a cause.

You aren't going to be able to do much about predicting it... .but you do know how to deal with it as it happens. Focus on what you do in her various moods... .not what sort of magical sequence put her into them.

Yeah, for me that's hard.   

And what was higher up on my wife's to-do list (ranked 4th) was "counseling at church".  I thought that was interesting considering she has been flat out against it with us.  Now, I know this is different (figure she means just her), but I will be surprised if she actually makes an appointment.  The other question is how will they counsel her knowing she is married.  Another thing I shouldn't worry about I know.  I'm a very impatient person by nature and sometimes I struggle with the slow pace.  It's these times that I wonder if she will come around to a healthy place regarding our r/s.

[formflier]

 

What kind of church does she go to?

Very good that "counseling" is on her mind... .even more important that you stay out of it... .

FF

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

I agree that "counseling" being on her mind is a good thing.  She goes to a pretty big baptist church with 6000+ members.  We always went to non-denominational.  No biggie either way.  I believe the draw to this church is because it's big and she doesn't have the accountability you have in a small one.  She can say it's all about the kids having "activities" till she's blue in the face but that is a small reason.  If you remember we were associate pastors at our old church and she didn't like the fact that everyone "knew" you. I know that baptist churches are "pro-marriage", but I also know how pwBPD can make it all about the other person.  With that said, I also believe that "clinical therapists" can also tell them to, "do what makes you happy".  :)rawbacks to both.  BTW, not that I was going to get involved, but why should I stay out of it?

[formflier]

  but why should I stay out of it?

If she perceives any "push" from you about her mental health... .that is bad... .

It needs to be hers... .

Expect there to be tiny... .tiny... baby steps... .if any. 

Hopefully she will start going in the right direction.  Very frustrating for guys like us... that are fixers (or used to be)... .

Plus... .with the religious element to the way we think... we want to remind them... .in fact... our religious training says we should "confront" them... .if they reject we should take another to witness... .if they reject we should take it to the church... .etc etc...

Very tough to stay away from that thinking... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

  but why should I stay out of it?

If she perceives any "push" from you about her mental health... .that is bad... .

It needs to be hers... .

Expect there to be tiny... .tiny... baby steps... .if any. 

Hopefully she will start going in the right direction.  Very frustrating for guys like us... that are fixers (or used to be)... .

Plus... .with the religious element to the way we think... we want to remind them... .in fact... our religious training says we should "confront" them... .if they reject we should take another to witness... .if they reject we should take it to the church... .etc etc...

Very tough to stay away from that thinking... .

FF

The funny thing is, she ascribes to this wholeheartedly when it comes to being in ministry.  She has led praise and worship and obviously we have been associate pastors before.  Now she is on the worship team at her church/  Why is this different because she is struggling with a form of mental illness?  She doesn't have a problem doing this with people... .

[Grey Kitty]

Stop looking for meaning in random noise.

Your wife goes up and down, push, and pull.

You *might* be able to identify a specific triggering event that started it, but one "trigger" isn't really a cause.

You aren't going to be able to do much about predicting it... .but you do know how to deal with it as it happens. Focus on what you do in her various moods... .not what sort of magical sequence put her into them.

Yeah, for me that's hard.   

And what was higher up on my wife's to-do list (ranked 4th) was "counseling at church".  I thought that was interesting considering she has been flat out against it with us.  Now, I know this is different (figure she means just her), but I will be surprised if she actually makes an appointment.  The other question is how will they counsel her knowing she is married.  Another thing I shouldn't worry about I know.

Yes, it is hard. I wasn't calling it easy 

My point was that in both cases... .you can spend a lot of energy shaking that tree, but there isn't any fruit for you in it.

I'm a very impatient person by nature and sometimes I struggle with the slow pace.

You've spent a LOT of time waiting for your wife. Maybe you needed lessons in patience?

It's these times that I wonder if she will come around to a healthy place regarding our r/s.

Good Question. My suspicion is that you may be somewhat like me in this regard. My view of what I need in a relationship in order to call it healthy as of today is higher than it was during the "good years" of my marriage, and even that my wife didn't come close to during the "bad years" which followed. As I've let go of some codependent and enmeshed thinking patterns, there is a bunch of stuff I don't even want anymore!

You obviously don't consider the last year or two anything vaguely like healthy.

Looking back at it... .was there time earlier, before the big blowup where you were kicked out of the house that really feels like it was truly healthy? (As opposed to less painful and messed up than what followed)

[formflier]

  Why is this different because she is struggling with a form of mental illness?  She doesn't have a problem doing this with people... .

Well... .it depends... .my wife used to defer to "authority" over her... .Bible, God, pastors... me... .

At some point... .she has tossed all of this out.

I certainly don't want to speak in detail about her beliefs... .but there has been a significant shift in behavior or a "giggling" at "acceptable sins".

Such as... .she can play God... .declare others sinful... .be judgmental... etc etc.  Pointing her to passages that would say she is in the wrong... .is BAD.

Conflict is way down with us... .at some point our intimacy may go up... .and we may get back into these subjects... .

Paranoia took over in most of her beliefs... .for a while she pretty much saw me as the Jonah that needed to be thrown over.

Last "religious discussion" that seem intimate... .ended with her saying... .direct quote here "I believe that God will bless you... and us... .when you quit doing... .whatever it is that you are doing... .that he is mad about... ."

I didn't blow up or any of that... .but I'm not going to discuss my faith with a person (even my wife) that says such accusatory things to me... .  :'(

Anyway... .

FF

[formflier]

 

Before my detour above... .I guess what I meant to say is that do as I say... .and not as I do is much easier... .

Gives them power and lets them be judgmental.


FF

[MaroonLiquid]

You've spent a LOT of time waiting for your wife. Maybe you needed lessons in patience?

Yes, I'll admit I did... .

Good Question. My suspicion is that you may be somewhat like me in this regard. My view of what I need in a relationship in order to call it healthy as of today is higher than it was during the "good years" of my marriage, and even that my wife didn't come close to during the "bad years" which followed. As I've let go of some codependent and enmeshed thinking patterns, there is a bunch of stuff I don't even want anymore!

You obviously don't consider the last year or two anything vaguely like healthy.

Looking back at it... .was there time earlier, before the big blowup where you were kicked out of the house that really feels like it was truly healthy? (As opposed to less painful and messed up than what followed)

Good question.  Unfortunately, we both brought a lot of baggage into the relationship.  Also, the circumstances surrounding us getting together were messy.  I do believe we wanted the right things for "us", our kids and our future, and for a while, that got us through.  We still talk about those things at times.  Not dealing with ourselves and our past made things that much harder.  I do believe she tried as best as she knew how.  I really believe that.  I know I did too.  I wish I had the knowledge 3-4 years ago that I do now.  We might not be separated right now.  I can't dwell on that.  Things are better and I am grateful for that.  Patience has been the bane of my existence my whole life.  I'm much better now than I used to be as this has taught me a lot!  

Well... .it depends... .my wife used to defer to "authority" over her... .Bible, God, pastors... me... .

At some point... .she has tossed all of this out.

I know what you mean here.  Now my wife seems to defer to people whose lives are in as much disarray as hers at times.  Having lunch with women who are divorced or are in the middle of it is a perfect example.  She fought so hard to save her previous marriage of 15 years with her old pastor and yet threw me aside after 5.  I know it isn't that "cut and dry" and she really hasn't (totally) but you know what I mean.  Just can't figure out why she painted me so black to begin with.  It seemed once she found the "BPD" articles and stuff on my laptop and kept it that it's been harder for her to turn back.  I know things are much better, but just thinking out loud.  

I certainly don't want to speak in detail about her beliefs... .but there has been a significant shift in behavior or a "giggling" at "acceptable sins".

Such as... .she can play God... .declare others sinful... .be judgmental... etc etc.  Pointing her to passages that would say she is in the wrong... .is BAD.

Boy do I know this... .When our daughter asked if my daughters could spend the night and gave her "the look", she turned to me and asked me why I wasn't in church at the moment and that I need to get my children in church.  I am sure she was trying to deflect whatever she was feeling at the time, but the judgemental thing was there.  

Conflict is way down with us... .at some point our intimacy may go up... .and we may get back into these subjects... .

Conflict is way down with us too, and notice after intimacy, she pulls back.  I understand why, especially after last time when we were intimate and she cried (sweetly) in my arms afterward.  Obviously, she was dealin with something.  I asked her why she was crying and she looked at me and just said, "because it was amazing."

Paranoia took over in most of her beliefs... .for a while she pretty much saw me as the Jonah that needed to be thrown over.

I LMAO on this one.  I almost spit out my drink.  I shouldn't laugh but I know how you feel though.  It's amazing how black she painted me for months on end! at the beginning of our separation.  I would love to be painted white again.  I know that isn't real either, but it would be nice.     Its funny too because now she will talk about doing things in the future that doesn't include me, especially after we are intimate.  For instance, she said when all the kids go off to college, she will rent an RV and tour the country for a year by herself.  I validate the feelings of seeing other places and not being tied down, but I know she can't be alone so that is complete BS. 

Last "religious discussion" that seem intimate... .ended with her saying... .direct quote here "I believe that God will bless you... and us... .when you quit doing... .whatever it is that you are doing... .that he is mad about... ."

I didn't blow up or any of that... .but I'm not going to discuss my faith with a person (even my wife) that says such accusatory things to me... . :'(

Anyway... .

FF

Know what you mean here too.

[Grey Kitty]

Good question.  Unfortunately, we both brought a lot of baggage into the relationship.  Also, the circumstances surrounding us getting together were messy.  I do believe we wanted the right things for "us", our kids and our future, and for a while, that got us through.  We still talk about those things at times.  Not dealing with ourselves and our past made things that much harder.  I do believe she tried as best as she knew how.  I really believe that.  I know I did too.  I wish I had the knowledge 3-4 years ago that I do now.  We might not be separated right now.  I can't dwell on that.  Things are better and I am grateful for that.  Patience has been the bane of my existence my whole life.  I'm much better now than I used to be as this has taught me a lot!  

You've learned and grown a lot since then. (And be gentle on yourself for not knowing things before you learned them!)

Your wife... .doesn't sound like she has done much of that. She is behaving better around you of late because you have good boundaries (now), but that doesn't strike me as an indication of personal growth on her part.

So to circle back to your comment that had me asking about this stuff... .

It's these times that I wonder if she will come around to a healthy place regarding our r/s.

You don't paint a picture of her that she is capable of being healthier than she was when you got into the relationship... .and where you are TODAY, that isn't really up to the standards you want in a relationship. And you aren't describing her making any consistent or effective efforts in that direction... .I don't see good reason to expect improvements in the next few weeks or months.

Had she started much better functioning, but kinda lost it, especially due to a majorly stressful external event, I'd think a recovery to prior levels was more likely. In this case, prior levels aren't sounding really good.

I'm not going to make any predictions on how things look over a few years. Your efforts to improve the relationship are likely to bear more fruit in how she behaves toward you. Keep working on the relationship and keep working on yourself!

You have been very consistent in stating you want to continue being a parent and involved with her kids. It seems to me that you would lose all that if you stop working on the r/s with her. So stick it out for those years. By the time her last kid hits 18, and she doesn't have (legal) control over access to the kids, I bet it will be pretty clear whether you would rather be single or romantically involved with her!

[MaroonLiquid]

Today, I went and picked up our daughter for her softball lesson because my wife couldn't be in two places at once.  She had to take the older two to school for a choir meeting.  I was glad to do it and help.  When we got back to her place she started making dinner.  Some of our oldest daughters friends came over and she started to talk to them and it became like I was almost invisible.  It didn't really bother me because I understand that when her friends come over she starts to act like a teenager.  Not in a creepy sort of way, but just focusing on them.  While making dinner, they asked her to take them to see a movie.  I didn't let it be awkward that I wasn't invited, I just tried to make jokes and not act like anything bothered me.  Once dinner was made all the girls and my wife sat at the table and I was offered a plate.  Because there was no seat at the table, I didn't say anything (not a big deal) and went and sat in the living room.  I finished my plate after about 15 minutes and went and washed it out.  I went and sat back in the living room to finish my drink.  She finally came in and asked about something lame regarding softball (trying to ease her own guilt maybe that I was sort of ignored?).  I answered her question and she asked me to come out while she walked the dog.  I said sure.  We were walking for a few minutes and I started to hold her hand.  We were holding hands for probably 20 seconds and she looked at me and asked, "What are you doing?  :)o you not HEAR me?"  I said, "What do you mean?"  She said, "I told you NOT to touch me."  Let's keep in mind yesterday she did and then later we held hands and I put my arm around her.  I responded, "I'm sorry.  I apologize."  She dropped it and I asked so are you guys going to the movies?"  She said, "Probably not."  At this point, I was pissed off but didn't show it and kept my cool.  But I decided I was ready to leave as at that point I was triggered and if I didn't I would say something I didn't mean.  I walked in and told the girls bye and as I was walking out the door, my wife said, "Thanks for picking our daughter up for practice."  I said, "No problem." and left.  I'm proud of myself for leaving when I did.  I refuse to put up with being treated that way and haven't allowed it for a while now.  I feel bad for not even saying thank you for the dinner, but man.  Still no yelling which is good.

[Grey Kitty]

A thank you for that kind of dinner isn't being polite or validating. It would be doormat-city!

If you were a valued member of the household or a valued guest, (... .absent BPD or other mental illness had games... .) there would have been a place made for you at the table.

Good choice to leave when you did.

[sweetheart]

Yes yes yes good choice to leave ML, I was triggered reading it 

and   to you just because ... .

[MaroonLiquid]

A thank you for that kind of dinner isn't being polite or validating. It would be doormat-city!

If you were a valued member of the household or a valued guest, (... .absent BPD or other mental illness had games... .) there would have been a place made for you at the table.

Good choice to leave when you did.

It was strange.  There have been many times in our relationship where my wife and I would go sit in the living room together and eat due to lack of room at the table (amount of kids).  She would always say, "I'll come sit with you honey."  This was the first time she didn't.  I don't know if she forgot that I was there, didn't care or what.  Either way, I wasn't going to make it awkward in front of the kids.  When she pulled that crap outside, I was shocked.  Maybe she felt guilty for how the night transpired (maybe not?), but regardless, I refuse to be treated that way anymore.  I do things for her because I want to and to show I care.  Not in a co-dependent, enabling way, but in a healthy way.  My limits are much more defined now.

Yes yes yes good choice to leave ML, I was triggered reading it 

and   to you just because ... .

Thanks.  I was surprised I kept a level head during that.  I have come a long way in the last year.  That was the closest I have come in a while to lashing back out at her.  I knew if I didn't leave, it wouldn't have ended well.  I certainly wasn't going to give her the satisfaction of saying what I wanted to say in front of other peoples kids.  It wouldn't have done any good anyway. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm feeling a little guilty (no big deal) for the way I walked out last night.  I didn't announce I was leaving, I just walked in from the backyard, grabbed my keys, said bye to the girls and then started heading for the front door.  Not telling my wife what I was doing and just leaving is where I feel guilty.  I know I was protecting myself, but I have never walked out that way before either.  That was uncharted territory for me... .Enforcing the "unhealthy communication boundary" in that manner was unprecedented for me and realize that is where the uncomfortable feeling comes from.  Again, I am proud of myself.  Just talking through my feeling today.  I haven't texted or tried to communicate since I walked out and she hasn't reached out either.  We are supposed to see each other tonight at softball practice anyway.  I'm not quite sure where the whole "don't touch me" deal is coming from either.  That has just started since the last time we were "together".  It's amazing that she doesn't say that when she wants sex.  

[formflier]

 

It's good that you can think through your feelings... .and figure out where they are coming from.

Be prepared for her to bring it up... .and also don't be shocked if she doesn't bring it up.

Remember... .when you see her... .be centered... glad to see her... but not "too" glad.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

It's good that you can think through your feelings... .and figure out where they are coming from.

I used to not care and just be led by them... .That always worked well... .

Be prepared for her to bring it up... .and also don't be shocked if she doesn't bring it up.

She didn't, and as par for the course with her, acted like it never happened.  She was nice and even invited me over for dinner.  I guess that was her "apology"?

Remember... .when you see her... .be centered... glad to see her... but not "too" glad.

FF

I stayed very centered.  Focused on the softball meeting with the parents, and she went out of her way to talk to me.  At the end, she invited me over for dinner.  After dinner, she asked me to lay down with her in her room.  Her youngest daughter tried to lay down with my her and my wife told her, "No, you need to leave my room."  We talked for a bit and then she fell asleep.  I dozed off for a bit too.  About 45 minutes later, I offered to pick up her oldest son from work as she was sleeping pretty hard.  After picking him up, I laid down with her again and dozed off.   About 30 minutes later, her middle daughter came in and woke me up by standing over her mom (she didn't wake up).  She told me, "My mom didn't take off her make up or anything before she got in bed."  I said, "Ok, she's obviously very tired."  I knew it had nothing to do with that.  She was finding an excuse to wake her up so she could ask if she could sleep with her.  A few minutes later, my wife woke up and said, "I need to get to bed."  I said, "Ok."  About that same time (as if they were listening for her voice), both daughters came in together and said, "Mom, are we sleeping in here tonight?"  I was thinking to myself, "WTH?  Geez, at least let her get out of bed... "  She said, "That's fine."  I grabbed my shoes and she helped me get some other stuff and walked me to the door.  We hugged, I kissed her forehead, and then walked out the door.  I still find it strange that they would wake her up to ask if they can sleep with her.  When we were together, there was hell to pay if they ever woke her up especially not knocking before coming into our room.  I find it even more strange that they would come in and stand over her with me laying next to her.  Yes, the door was open to her room, we were fully clothed and had nothing to hide.  To me, that is still an invasion of privacy, and just plain weird.  I know when we first got together they were taking turns sleeping with her and we had to break them of it, but that was 6 years ago and they were in elementary school.  Why would they do this now that they are in high school?  It's almost like they have reverted to early childhood.  I've also wondered if they are doing it on purpose.  They ask every time I'm over now.  Why is she allowing it?  This only started happening on a seemingly every night basis within the last couple of months as our relationship has gotten somewhat healthier.  Is that weird to anyone else?  To me, it's completely unhealthy.  When my kids come over to my house, I don't let them sleep with me unless they are sick.  I have thought about talking with her about it, but figure it won't go very well.

[formflier]

 My wife tends to like to let kids come sleep with her... .I generally discourage it.

I suspect it is a general lack of boundaries... .appropriateness... .that kind of thing.

FF

[byfaith]

@maroon

I deal with this privacy thing on my end. My stepson is 30 years old and walks in and out of our bedroom mostly at will at night 11, 11;30pm, 12am... .there has been no boundary set by his mother and I have not tried to enforce one because it causes too many problems which would probably lead to separate rooms.

He does have Schizophrenia but that is no reason to not have boundaries. It is a weird feeling

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,

From what you describe above, your w has created a codependent relationship with the children. Maybe unconsciously as a way of replacing you. The children are not the ones at fault here, they lack good boundaries and insight around this issue because your w is their only role model.

If they take turns sleeping with her, there might never be an urgent need for her to have you back there, not any time soon IMO, because they are fulfilling both the emotional and physical space left by you for her.

Unhealthy stuff, especially for the children, but not at all untypical of BPD type behaviours which are often around poor boundaries, low self-esteem, a need for control, intimacy issues etc.

Codependent parenting is not however limited to pwBPD, we can all bring unresolved issues to our parenting.

This is very tricky stuff to navigate, given that you are not living there.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife tends to like to let kids come sleep with her... .I generally discourage it.

I suspect it is a general lack of boundaries... .appropriateness... .that kind of thing.

FF

I agree on lack of boundaries.  What bothered me the most was her standing over the bed when we were both asleep.  It bothered me.

@maroon

I deal with this privacy thing on my end. My stepson is 30 years old and walks in and out of our bedroom mostly at will at night 11, 11;30pm, 12am... .there has been no boundary set by his mother and I have not tried to enforce one because it causes too many problems which would probably lead to separate rooms.

He does have Schizophrenia but that is no reason to not have boundaries. It is a weird feeling

yeah, like I said, up until two months or so ago, this didn't happen but once or twice.  While together, if they ever walked in the room without knocking (even if the door was open), she would get pissed.  Now, it seems like an every night thing now.

Hi ML,

From what you describe above, your w has created a codependent relationship with the children. Maybe unconsciously as a way of replacing you.

Hmmmm... .Interesting.  Now that I look at the timeline of the last few months, maybe it was more like three months ago or so when this started.  That would put the start of the kids sleeping with her almost nightly around the time she "filed for divorce".  That's very good insight and you may have hit the nail on the head.  School starts back up next week.  Curious to see if this continues next week. 

The children are not the ones at fault here, they lack good boundaries and insight around this issue because your w is their only role model.

If they take turns sleeping with her, there might never be an urgent need for her to have you back there, not any time soon IMO, because they are fulfilling both the emotional and physical space left by you for her.

Unhealthy stuff, especially for the children, but not at all untypical of BPD type behaviours which are often around poor boundaries, low self-esteem, a need for control, intimacy issues etc.

Codependent parenting is not however limited to pwBPD, we can all bring unresolved issues to our parenting.

This is very tricky stuff to navigate, given that you are not living there.

   

I know they aren't at fault.  I just figured they knew better and that standing over your parents bed when they are asleep is not appropriate. 

[sweetheart]

ML it will be interesting to see if it continues... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So in an effort to "live my values", I chose to text my wife and tell her I wanted her physically yesterday afternoon.  Sex between us has always been great and I do value that part of our relationship.  If I don't put that out there, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells and not being who I am.  That is something that I have held back for a while as to not "push her away", but only feel like it's done or talked about when she wants it.  Regardless, I figured she wouldn't respond to it and I was right.  I just wanted her to know that I do want her.  She did respond later about a vehicle that I sent her a picture of that was for sale (for our son and daughter).  I texted her "good morning" this morning and asked if we could have lunch tomorrow.  No response.  Maybe back in some form of ST?    

[sweetheart]

ML I think you are turning into a stoic. 

Putting your self out there sounds like a very vulnerable and lonely place to be, especially when there is no response.

ML I was wondering is there a point when this won't be enough for you anymore, when holding true to your values means that you want more than is being given to you ?

[Grey Kitty]

Not sure about living your values... .with your wife.

I do agree that being honest and vulnerable about what you want and need is the proper way to live, and it fits my values too. 

However your wife is not a safe person to choose to be vulnerable to... .at least without a lot of attention paid to her moods, using the right tools, and awareness of what things she simply cannot deal with well. She is not (currently) capable of the sort of deep intimacy and vulnerability, and may not be safe to behave that way around.

For example, being honest about money with her is a really BAD idea.

Looking for areas where you can be more open and vulnerable with you, and where she responds positively is a great idea, but know that at least for now, some areas will not be that way for you.

[formflier]

Maybe back in some form of ST?    

My opinion... .you have confirmed that the existing dynamic... .still exists.

Testing the waters every so often... .is just fine... .IMO.

FF

[married21years]

Maybe back in some form of ST?    

My opinion... .you have confirmed that the existing dynamic... .still exists.

Testing the waters every so often... .is just fine... .IMO.

FF

i am in ST too 

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

You have dealt with quite a bit of ST... .

How do you deal with it now?  How does that compare to 6 months ago... .longer back?

Is the ST about you?

FF