Out of Nowhere 2...

[formflier]

 

What kind of church does she go to?

Very good that "counseling" is on her mind... .even more important that you stay out of it... .

FF

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

I agree that "counseling" being on her mind is a good thing.  She goes to a pretty big baptist church with 6000+ members.  We always went to non-denominational.  No biggie either way.  I believe the draw to this church is because it's big and she doesn't have the accountability you have in a small one.  She can say it's all about the kids having "activities" till she's blue in the face but that is a small reason.  If you remember we were associate pastors at our old church and she didn't like the fact that everyone "knew" you. I know that baptist churches are "pro-marriage", but I also know how pwBPD can make it all about the other person.  With that said, I also believe that "clinical therapists" can also tell them to, "do what makes you happy".  :)rawbacks to both.  BTW, not that I was going to get involved, but why should I stay out of it?

[formflier]

  but why should I stay out of it?

If she perceives any "push" from you about her mental health... .that is bad... .

It needs to be hers... .

Expect there to be tiny... .tiny... baby steps... .if any. 

Hopefully she will start going in the right direction.  Very frustrating for guys like us... that are fixers (or used to be)... .

Plus... .with the religious element to the way we think... we want to remind them... .in fact... our religious training says we should "confront" them... .if they reject we should take another to witness... .if they reject we should take it to the church... .etc etc...

Very tough to stay away from that thinking... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

  but why should I stay out of it?

If she perceives any "push" from you about her mental health... .that is bad... .

It needs to be hers... .

Expect there to be tiny... .tiny... baby steps... .if any. 

Hopefully she will start going in the right direction.  Very frustrating for guys like us... that are fixers (or used to be)... .

Plus... .with the religious element to the way we think... we want to remind them... .in fact... our religious training says we should "confront" them... .if they reject we should take another to witness... .if they reject we should take it to the church... .etc etc...

Very tough to stay away from that thinking... .

FF

The funny thing is, she ascribes to this wholeheartedly when it comes to being in ministry.  She has led praise and worship and obviously we have been associate pastors before.  Now she is on the worship team at her church/  Why is this different because she is struggling with a form of mental illness?  She doesn't have a problem doing this with people... .

[Grey Kitty]

Stop looking for meaning in random noise.

Your wife goes up and down, push, and pull.

You *might* be able to identify a specific triggering event that started it, but one "trigger" isn't really a cause.

You aren't going to be able to do much about predicting it... .but you do know how to deal with it as it happens. Focus on what you do in her various moods... .not what sort of magical sequence put her into them.

Yeah, for me that's hard.   

And what was higher up on my wife's to-do list (ranked 4th) was "counseling at church".  I thought that was interesting considering she has been flat out against it with us.  Now, I know this is different (figure she means just her), but I will be surprised if she actually makes an appointment.  The other question is how will they counsel her knowing she is married.  Another thing I shouldn't worry about I know.

Yes, it is hard. I wasn't calling it easy 

My point was that in both cases... .you can spend a lot of energy shaking that tree, but there isn't any fruit for you in it.

I'm a very impatient person by nature and sometimes I struggle with the slow pace.

You've spent a LOT of time waiting for your wife. Maybe you needed lessons in patience?

It's these times that I wonder if she will come around to a healthy place regarding our r/s.

Good Question. My suspicion is that you may be somewhat like me in this regard. My view of what I need in a relationship in order to call it healthy as of today is higher than it was during the "good years" of my marriage, and even that my wife didn't come close to during the "bad years" which followed. As I've let go of some codependent and enmeshed thinking patterns, there is a bunch of stuff I don't even want anymore!

You obviously don't consider the last year or two anything vaguely like healthy.

Looking back at it... .was there time earlier, before the big blowup where you were kicked out of the house that really feels like it was truly healthy? (As opposed to less painful and messed up than what followed)

[formflier]

  Why is this different because she is struggling with a form of mental illness?  She doesn't have a problem doing this with people... .

Well... .it depends... .my wife used to defer to "authority" over her... .Bible, God, pastors... me... .

At some point... .she has tossed all of this out.

I certainly don't want to speak in detail about her beliefs... .but there has been a significant shift in behavior or a "giggling" at "acceptable sins".

Such as... .she can play God... .declare others sinful... .be judgmental... etc etc.  Pointing her to passages that would say she is in the wrong... .is BAD.

Conflict is way down with us... .at some point our intimacy may go up... .and we may get back into these subjects... .

Paranoia took over in most of her beliefs... .for a while she pretty much saw me as the Jonah that needed to be thrown over.

Last "religious discussion" that seem intimate... .ended with her saying... .direct quote here "I believe that God will bless you... and us... .when you quit doing... .whatever it is that you are doing... .that he is mad about... ."

I didn't blow up or any of that... .but I'm not going to discuss my faith with a person (even my wife) that says such accusatory things to me... .  :'(

Anyway... .

FF

[formflier]

 

Before my detour above... .I guess what I meant to say is that do as I say... .and not as I do is much easier... .

Gives them power and lets them be judgmental.


FF

[MaroonLiquid]

You've spent a LOT of time waiting for your wife. Maybe you needed lessons in patience?

Yes, I'll admit I did... .

Good Question. My suspicion is that you may be somewhat like me in this regard. My view of what I need in a relationship in order to call it healthy as of today is higher than it was during the "good years" of my marriage, and even that my wife didn't come close to during the "bad years" which followed. As I've let go of some codependent and enmeshed thinking patterns, there is a bunch of stuff I don't even want anymore!

You obviously don't consider the last year or two anything vaguely like healthy.

Looking back at it... .was there time earlier, before the big blowup where you were kicked out of the house that really feels like it was truly healthy? (As opposed to less painful and messed up than what followed)

Good question.  Unfortunately, we both brought a lot of baggage into the relationship.  Also, the circumstances surrounding us getting together were messy.  I do believe we wanted the right things for "us", our kids and our future, and for a while, that got us through.  We still talk about those things at times.  Not dealing with ourselves and our past made things that much harder.  I do believe she tried as best as she knew how.  I really believe that.  I know I did too.  I wish I had the knowledge 3-4 years ago that I do now.  We might not be separated right now.  I can't dwell on that.  Things are better and I am grateful for that.  Patience has been the bane of my existence my whole life.  I'm much better now than I used to be as this has taught me a lot!  

Well... .it depends... .my wife used to defer to "authority" over her... .Bible, God, pastors... me... .

At some point... .she has tossed all of this out.

I know what you mean here.  Now my wife seems to defer to people whose lives are in as much disarray as hers at times.  Having lunch with women who are divorced or are in the middle of it is a perfect example.  She fought so hard to save her previous marriage of 15 years with her old pastor and yet threw me aside after 5.  I know it isn't that "cut and dry" and she really hasn't (totally) but you know what I mean.  Just can't figure out why she painted me so black to begin with.  It seemed once she found the "BPD" articles and stuff on my laptop and kept it that it's been harder for her to turn back.  I know things are much better, but just thinking out loud.  

I certainly don't want to speak in detail about her beliefs... .but there has been a significant shift in behavior or a "giggling" at "acceptable sins".

Such as... .she can play God... .declare others sinful... .be judgmental... etc etc.  Pointing her to passages that would say she is in the wrong... .is BAD.

Boy do I know this... .When our daughter asked if my daughters could spend the night and gave her "the look", she turned to me and asked me why I wasn't in church at the moment and that I need to get my children in church.  I am sure she was trying to deflect whatever she was feeling at the time, but the judgemental thing was there.  

Conflict is way down with us... .at some point our intimacy may go up... .and we may get back into these subjects... .

Conflict is way down with us too, and notice after intimacy, she pulls back.  I understand why, especially after last time when we were intimate and she cried (sweetly) in my arms afterward.  Obviously, she was dealin with something.  I asked her why she was crying and she looked at me and just said, "because it was amazing."

Paranoia took over in most of her beliefs... .for a while she pretty much saw me as the Jonah that needed to be thrown over.

I LMAO on this one.  I almost spit out my drink.  I shouldn't laugh but I know how you feel though.  It's amazing how black she painted me for months on end! at the beginning of our separation.  I would love to be painted white again.  I know that isn't real either, but it would be nice.     Its funny too because now she will talk about doing things in the future that doesn't include me, especially after we are intimate.  For instance, she said when all the kids go off to college, she will rent an RV and tour the country for a year by herself.  I validate the feelings of seeing other places and not being tied down, but I know she can't be alone so that is complete BS. 

Last "religious discussion" that seem intimate... .ended with her saying... .direct quote here "I believe that God will bless you... and us... .when you quit doing... .whatever it is that you are doing... .that he is mad about... ."

I didn't blow up or any of that... .but I'm not going to discuss my faith with a person (even my wife) that says such accusatory things to me... . :'(

Anyway... .

FF

Know what you mean here too.

[Grey Kitty]

Good question.  Unfortunately, we both brought a lot of baggage into the relationship.  Also, the circumstances surrounding us getting together were messy.  I do believe we wanted the right things for "us", our kids and our future, and for a while, that got us through.  We still talk about those things at times.  Not dealing with ourselves and our past made things that much harder.  I do believe she tried as best as she knew how.  I really believe that.  I know I did too.  I wish I had the knowledge 3-4 years ago that I do now.  We might not be separated right now.  I can't dwell on that.  Things are better and I am grateful for that.  Patience has been the bane of my existence my whole life.  I'm much better now than I used to be as this has taught me a lot!  

You've learned and grown a lot since then. (And be gentle on yourself for not knowing things before you learned them!)

Your wife... .doesn't sound like she has done much of that. She is behaving better around you of late because you have good boundaries (now), but that doesn't strike me as an indication of personal growth on her part.

So to circle back to your comment that had me asking about this stuff... .

It's these times that I wonder if she will come around to a healthy place regarding our r/s.

You don't paint a picture of her that she is capable of being healthier than she was when you got into the relationship... .and where you are TODAY, that isn't really up to the standards you want in a relationship. And you aren't describing her making any consistent or effective efforts in that direction... .I don't see good reason to expect improvements in the next few weeks or months.

Had she started much better functioning, but kinda lost it, especially due to a majorly stressful external event, I'd think a recovery to prior levels was more likely. In this case, prior levels aren't sounding really good.

I'm not going to make any predictions on how things look over a few years. Your efforts to improve the relationship are likely to bear more fruit in how she behaves toward you. Keep working on the relationship and keep working on yourself!

You have been very consistent in stating you want to continue being a parent and involved with her kids. It seems to me that you would lose all that if you stop working on the r/s with her. So stick it out for those years. By the time her last kid hits 18, and she doesn't have (legal) control over access to the kids, I bet it will be pretty clear whether you would rather be single or romantically involved with her!

[MaroonLiquid]

Today, I went and picked up our daughter for her softball lesson because my wife couldn't be in two places at once.  She had to take the older two to school for a choir meeting.  I was glad to do it and help.  When we got back to her place she started making dinner.  Some of our oldest daughters friends came over and she started to talk to them and it became like I was almost invisible.  It didn't really bother me because I understand that when her friends come over she starts to act like a teenager.  Not in a creepy sort of way, but just focusing on them.  While making dinner, they asked her to take them to see a movie.  I didn't let it be awkward that I wasn't invited, I just tried to make jokes and not act like anything bothered me.  Once dinner was made all the girls and my wife sat at the table and I was offered a plate.  Because there was no seat at the table, I didn't say anything (not a big deal) and went and sat in the living room.  I finished my plate after about 15 minutes and went and washed it out.  I went and sat back in the living room to finish my drink.  She finally came in and asked about something lame regarding softball (trying to ease her own guilt maybe that I was sort of ignored?).  I answered her question and she asked me to come out while she walked the dog.  I said sure.  We were walking for a few minutes and I started to hold her hand.  We were holding hands for probably 20 seconds and she looked at me and asked, "What are you doing?  :)o you not HEAR me?"  I said, "What do you mean?"  She said, "I told you NOT to touch me."  Let's keep in mind yesterday she did and then later we held hands and I put my arm around her.  I responded, "I'm sorry.  I apologize."  She dropped it and I asked so are you guys going to the movies?"  She said, "Probably not."  At this point, I was pissed off but didn't show it and kept my cool.  But I decided I was ready to leave as at that point I was triggered and if I didn't I would say something I didn't mean.  I walked in and told the girls bye and as I was walking out the door, my wife said, "Thanks for picking our daughter up for practice."  I said, "No problem." and left.  I'm proud of myself for leaving when I did.  I refuse to put up with being treated that way and haven't allowed it for a while now.  I feel bad for not even saying thank you for the dinner, but man.  Still no yelling which is good.

[Grey Kitty]

A thank you for that kind of dinner isn't being polite or validating. It would be doormat-city!

If you were a valued member of the household or a valued guest, (... .absent BPD or other mental illness had games... .) there would have been a place made for you at the table.

Good choice to leave when you did.

[sweetheart]

Yes yes yes good choice to leave ML, I was triggered reading it 

and   to you just because ... .

[MaroonLiquid]

A thank you for that kind of dinner isn't being polite or validating. It would be doormat-city!

If you were a valued member of the household or a valued guest, (... .absent BPD or other mental illness had games... .) there would have been a place made for you at the table.

Good choice to leave when you did.

It was strange.  There have been many times in our relationship where my wife and I would go sit in the living room together and eat due to lack of room at the table (amount of kids).  She would always say, "I'll come sit with you honey."  This was the first time she didn't.  I don't know if she forgot that I was there, didn't care or what.  Either way, I wasn't going to make it awkward in front of the kids.  When she pulled that crap outside, I was shocked.  Maybe she felt guilty for how the night transpired (maybe not?), but regardless, I refuse to be treated that way anymore.  I do things for her because I want to and to show I care.  Not in a co-dependent, enabling way, but in a healthy way.  My limits are much more defined now.

Yes yes yes good choice to leave ML, I was triggered reading it 

and   to you just because ... .

Thanks.  I was surprised I kept a level head during that.  I have come a long way in the last year.  That was the closest I have come in a while to lashing back out at her.  I knew if I didn't leave, it wouldn't have ended well.  I certainly wasn't going to give her the satisfaction of saying what I wanted to say in front of other peoples kids.  It wouldn't have done any good anyway. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm feeling a little guilty (no big deal) for the way I walked out last night.  I didn't announce I was leaving, I just walked in from the backyard, grabbed my keys, said bye to the girls and then started heading for the front door.  Not telling my wife what I was doing and just leaving is where I feel guilty.  I know I was protecting myself, but I have never walked out that way before either.  That was uncharted territory for me... .Enforcing the "unhealthy communication boundary" in that manner was unprecedented for me and realize that is where the uncomfortable feeling comes from.  Again, I am proud of myself.  Just talking through my feeling today.  I haven't texted or tried to communicate since I walked out and she hasn't reached out either.  We are supposed to see each other tonight at softball practice anyway.  I'm not quite sure where the whole "don't touch me" deal is coming from either.  That has just started since the last time we were "together".  It's amazing that she doesn't say that when she wants sex.  

[formflier]

 

It's good that you can think through your feelings... .and figure out where they are coming from.

Be prepared for her to bring it up... .and also don't be shocked if she doesn't bring it up.

Remember... .when you see her... .be centered... glad to see her... but not "too" glad.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

It's good that you can think through your feelings... .and figure out where they are coming from.

I used to not care and just be led by them... .That always worked well... .

Be prepared for her to bring it up... .and also don't be shocked if she doesn't bring it up.

She didn't, and as par for the course with her, acted like it never happened.  She was nice and even invited me over for dinner.  I guess that was her "apology"?

Remember... .when you see her... .be centered... glad to see her... but not "too" glad.

FF

I stayed very centered.  Focused on the softball meeting with the parents, and she went out of her way to talk to me.  At the end, she invited me over for dinner.  After dinner, she asked me to lay down with her in her room.  Her youngest daughter tried to lay down with my her and my wife told her, "No, you need to leave my room."  We talked for a bit and then she fell asleep.  I dozed off for a bit too.  About 45 minutes later, I offered to pick up her oldest son from work as she was sleeping pretty hard.  After picking him up, I laid down with her again and dozed off.   About 30 minutes later, her middle daughter came in and woke me up by standing over her mom (she didn't wake up).  She told me, "My mom didn't take off her make up or anything before she got in bed."  I said, "Ok, she's obviously very tired."  I knew it had nothing to do with that.  She was finding an excuse to wake her up so she could ask if she could sleep with her.  A few minutes later, my wife woke up and said, "I need to get to bed."  I said, "Ok."  About that same time (as if they were listening for her voice), both daughters came in together and said, "Mom, are we sleeping in here tonight?"  I was thinking to myself, "WTH?  Geez, at least let her get out of bed... "  She said, "That's fine."  I grabbed my shoes and she helped me get some other stuff and walked me to the door.  We hugged, I kissed her forehead, and then walked out the door.  I still find it strange that they would wake her up to ask if they can sleep with her.  When we were together, there was hell to pay if they ever woke her up especially not knocking before coming into our room.  I find it even more strange that they would come in and stand over her with me laying next to her.  Yes, the door was open to her room, we were fully clothed and had nothing to hide.  To me, that is still an invasion of privacy, and just plain weird.  I know when we first got together they were taking turns sleeping with her and we had to break them of it, but that was 6 years ago and they were in elementary school.  Why would they do this now that they are in high school?  It's almost like they have reverted to early childhood.  I've also wondered if they are doing it on purpose.  They ask every time I'm over now.  Why is she allowing it?  This only started happening on a seemingly every night basis within the last couple of months as our relationship has gotten somewhat healthier.  Is that weird to anyone else?  To me, it's completely unhealthy.  When my kids come over to my house, I don't let them sleep with me unless they are sick.  I have thought about talking with her about it, but figure it won't go very well.

[formflier]

 My wife tends to like to let kids come sleep with her... .I generally discourage it.

I suspect it is a general lack of boundaries... .appropriateness... .that kind of thing.

FF

[byfaith]

@maroon

I deal with this privacy thing on my end. My stepson is 30 years old and walks in and out of our bedroom mostly at will at night 11, 11;30pm, 12am... .there has been no boundary set by his mother and I have not tried to enforce one because it causes too many problems which would probably lead to separate rooms.

He does have Schizophrenia but that is no reason to not have boundaries. It is a weird feeling

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,

From what you describe above, your w has created a codependent relationship with the children. Maybe unconsciously as a way of replacing you. The children are not the ones at fault here, they lack good boundaries and insight around this issue because your w is their only role model.

If they take turns sleeping with her, there might never be an urgent need for her to have you back there, not any time soon IMO, because they are fulfilling both the emotional and physical space left by you for her.

Unhealthy stuff, especially for the children, but not at all untypical of BPD type behaviours which are often around poor boundaries, low self-esteem, a need for control, intimacy issues etc.

Codependent parenting is not however limited to pwBPD, we can all bring unresolved issues to our parenting.

This is very tricky stuff to navigate, given that you are not living there.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife tends to like to let kids come sleep with her... .I generally discourage it.

I suspect it is a general lack of boundaries... .appropriateness... .that kind of thing.

FF

I agree on lack of boundaries.  What bothered me the most was her standing over the bed when we were both asleep.  It bothered me.

@maroon

I deal with this privacy thing on my end. My stepson is 30 years old and walks in and out of our bedroom mostly at will at night 11, 11;30pm, 12am... .there has been no boundary set by his mother and I have not tried to enforce one because it causes too many problems which would probably lead to separate rooms.

He does have Schizophrenia but that is no reason to not have boundaries. It is a weird feeling

yeah, like I said, up until two months or so ago, this didn't happen but once or twice.  While together, if they ever walked in the room without knocking (even if the door was open), she would get pissed.  Now, it seems like an every night thing now.

Hi ML,

From what you describe above, your w has created a codependent relationship with the children. Maybe unconsciously as a way of replacing you.

Hmmmm... .Interesting.  Now that I look at the timeline of the last few months, maybe it was more like three months ago or so when this started.  That would put the start of the kids sleeping with her almost nightly around the time she "filed for divorce".  That's very good insight and you may have hit the nail on the head.  School starts back up next week.  Curious to see if this continues next week. 

The children are not the ones at fault here, they lack good boundaries and insight around this issue because your w is their only role model.

If they take turns sleeping with her, there might never be an urgent need for her to have you back there, not any time soon IMO, because they are fulfilling both the emotional and physical space left by you for her.

Unhealthy stuff, especially for the children, but not at all untypical of BPD type behaviours which are often around poor boundaries, low self-esteem, a need for control, intimacy issues etc.

Codependent parenting is not however limited to pwBPD, we can all bring unresolved issues to our parenting.

This is very tricky stuff to navigate, given that you are not living there.

   

I know they aren't at fault.  I just figured they knew better and that standing over your parents bed when they are asleep is not appropriate. 

[sweetheart]

ML it will be interesting to see if it continues... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So in an effort to "live my values", I chose to text my wife and tell her I wanted her physically yesterday afternoon.  Sex between us has always been great and I do value that part of our relationship.  If I don't put that out there, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells and not being who I am.  That is something that I have held back for a while as to not "push her away", but only feel like it's done or talked about when she wants it.  Regardless, I figured she wouldn't respond to it and I was right.  I just wanted her to know that I do want her.  She did respond later about a vehicle that I sent her a picture of that was for sale (for our son and daughter).  I texted her "good morning" this morning and asked if we could have lunch tomorrow.  No response.  Maybe back in some form of ST?    

[sweetheart]

ML I think you are turning into a stoic. 

Putting your self out there sounds like a very vulnerable and lonely place to be, especially when there is no response.

ML I was wondering is there a point when this won't be enough for you anymore, when holding true to your values means that you want more than is being given to you ?

[Grey Kitty]

Not sure about living your values... .with your wife.

I do agree that being honest and vulnerable about what you want and need is the proper way to live, and it fits my values too. 

However your wife is not a safe person to choose to be vulnerable to... .at least without a lot of attention paid to her moods, using the right tools, and awareness of what things she simply cannot deal with well. She is not (currently) capable of the sort of deep intimacy and vulnerability, and may not be safe to behave that way around.

For example, being honest about money with her is a really BAD idea.

Looking for areas where you can be more open and vulnerable with you, and where she responds positively is a great idea, but know that at least for now, some areas will not be that way for you.

[formflier]

Maybe back in some form of ST?    

My opinion... .you have confirmed that the existing dynamic... .still exists.

Testing the waters every so often... .is just fine... .IMO.

FF

[married21years]

Maybe back in some form of ST?    

My opinion... .you have confirmed that the existing dynamic... .still exists.

Testing the waters every so often... .is just fine... .IMO.

FF

i am in ST too 

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

You have dealt with quite a bit of ST... .

How do you deal with it now?  How does that compare to 6 months ago... .longer back?

Is the ST about you?

FF