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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: Robbing you of security/keeping you scared...  (Read 466 times)
Ceruleanblue
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« on: August 10, 2015, 12:39:39 PM »

So, yesterday BPDh and I had "the talk" he said we'd have. Of course, he'd promised we'd talk, and again, seemed to have no desire to do so. I think the person who suggested he is super avoidant is correct. I guess I need to learn to live with nothing ever being resolved, mediated, agreed to, compromised on, or even me being in the know as to what's going on. THAT is going to be very hard for me, but I'm not seeing any alternative?

During the talk, he pretty much let out a bunch of negative feelings again about our marriage. He seems to be evaluating yet again if we should remain together. Let me get this straight, he's on huge doses of meds to control his anger, he's in DBT, he's recently acting out a lot more, yet he's thinking of leaving? Is this the whole "dump them before they dump you" BPD scenario? He says he just wants us both to be happy(and he sort of always says this in a way that implies that isn't what I want... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)), but he doesn't seem to be willing to do the stuff that ensures we can be.

I snooped his DBT paperwork last night, and he had a great list of about twenty things to do/use to resolve conflict in marriage. They are things I've been doing! Does he just not do the required reading(he hates to read), or does he just not care? Is it just easier to put the burden on ME, than for him to do any of the suggested things? I'm baffled why he spends so much time going to DBT if he doesn't seem to be getting anything out of it recently. For a while, there were HUGE changes in him. I wasn't doing anything different than using the tools here, so I know the difference was him.

Anyway, he said so many of the same things he said last time he was thinking of divorcing, and he ended up leaving me that time. Of course this triggers my fear of abandonment. How could it not? I want this marriage to work, and we have times where it is a much healthier, better functioning marriage. What can I do to get us back to that? I already know walking away is crucial, of course. Not getting sucked into his need for a fight.

How do I stop the worry and fear of where his mind seems to be heading: divorce. He starts thinking this way, and then he starts looking at us in a totally negative light, and looking for trouble, even where there is none. We get painted black by him, but it's a slow process. Drip, drip, drip. And it makes me feel and act as if I can't say no to him, which is a dangerous place for me to be in. I don't want to slip back into being codependent and enmeshed. He refuses to offer any form of reassurance, and now that he's left once, and knowing his past of 24 years of leaving his ex, it's very triggering.

I hate feeling that I'm temporary. I almost wonder if I should just start making plans to leave, because I fear that's where he's headed yet again. I'd only do it as a back up plan, because I want this to work out. I'm the only one who seems to appreciate the good times, and see improvement. Just last week he told me that he needs to start being more appreciative of me and our relationship, I even mentioned in MC that  he said that, and how much it meant to me, but he seems to have taken a nose dive.

How does everyone else deal with knowing their partner doesn't think you'll stay together, and now he says he can't say we'll be together for the rest of our lives. He was saying all those things when he came back, and his meds got regulated, and his DBT was working. How do I feel okay living with no security, and feeling as if the rug can be yanked out at any given moment?

I just want to go back to two months ago, when things were so much better.
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2015, 12:47:20 PM »

 

Think less about what is going on in his mind... .focus more on your mind... .

You control your side of the street... .let him control his... .

FF
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2015, 01:17:56 PM »

Yeah, I totally get that. I don't sit around and worry about what he's thinking right now, but I DO sit around and worry about the things he's told me. The general gist of how he's thinking. I mean, what we think, we tend to create.

If he's thinking that we won't work out, that we don't have a future, and the last time he felt/thought that way/expressed those exact sentiments, he did in fact LEAVE. How am I supposed to not worry about that? It feels like refusing to think about it(and with my OCD, that's nearly impossible), it's akin to burying my head in the sand?

It's like I can see the train wreck coming, but I can't do anything to stop it, but maybe I can get off the tracks myself? I just want peace, and to be happy.

How do I find a calm, secure state, when I know my entire life just might be uprooted yet again?

I'm not trying to exert any control over him or his feelings/thoughts, but it is worrying to me that way his thoughts are heading... .he's choosing to see all bad again, and he's losing sight of how far he/we had come.
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Cloudy Days
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2015, 01:38:53 PM »

I guess I have a different outlook on if my husband leaves. I see it more like, if he wants to leave then I can't stop him and honestly I am doing everything I can to be a good wife. so if my husband leaves, it's not me it's him and I can't change him. I can only deal with me and my emotions and my actions.

If he does leave you, where does that leave you? Why is it you fear it so much? I hate to sound harsh but I think a part of Codependency is that need of the other person and the fear of being alone. I get it, in the past I begged my husband not to leave me. I look back at that person and shutter because now I would never beg him to stay. I tell him my wishes, my feelings and let him know that I do not want someone that does not want me. So if he really wants to separate he is free to do so. You can't dwell on the actions of others. You will drive yourself mad wondering if he is going to leave or not. You need to work on your inner happiness that makes you feel at peace, with him or not with him. I know that I have an unhealthy attachment to my husband but one thing I have not been afraid of in a long time is if he decides to leave me. That may be why he has stopped threatening me. He still says it occasionally, but I don't flinch at the thought of telling him to go ahead. Don't get me wrong, I don't encourage him, I simply say I don't want someone who doesn't want me. And really no one should want someone who doesn't want them. I can't dwell on what he thinks about me or our relationship for too long because his feelings will change like the wind and as soon as I understand one feeling, it will be something else. It's exhausting and I refuse to do it, I focus on me now and I am a much happier person for it.
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It's not the future you are afraid of, it's repeating the past that makes you anxious.
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2015, 02:10:34 PM »

I too, used to beg him to stay, and work on things, but I won't ever do that again. He seemed to enjoy having that kind of power, and I won't give him that again. I think I fear failure, more than being alone. My parents have been married 60 years, and divorce is frowned upon in my family. Actually, at this point the thought of being alone, isn't as scary to me as thinking of years spent with such an unhappy person.

I do want us to work out, but I hate that only I feel that way. I feel he's lucky to have someone who stays with him in the face of this PD he has. I'd think he'd have a sense of gratitude, especially after being left by his first wife due to his crazy behaviors.

I am focusing on ME, and was doing a good job of doing that, but his recent comments have really shaken the recent security I thought we had. I'm going to try to adopt the attitude you have, Cloudy Days! That seems like a much better perspective.
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2015, 02:21:15 PM »

I feel that fear you feel. I'm not sure for the same reasons.

My boyfriend can abruptly start ST and "disappear" for long periods of time. It's been a lonely feeling, times of feeling hopeless, futile, unwanted, despised.

I really struggle with it. Like you, like most of us here, I guess, we didn't get into the relationships with the idea of all of these struggles, bad feelings, being alone inside a relationship.

It simply feels bad.
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Cloudy Days
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2015, 02:38:12 PM »

My first attempt at not acting like I gave a crap if he stayed or left. I was actually decorating our Christmas tree. He was throwing a big fit about something, I don't remember. He told me he was leaving, I said ok, if that's what you want to do, and then I ignored him. He left for probably an hour. He came back more pissed off than when he left. His reasoning, I didn't act like I cared that he was leaving. That woke me up, it made me realize so much of what he does is to get a specific reaction out of me. At that point in time I was just sad and fed up with everything. It wasn't intentional, it was out of desperation that I just didn't care what he did anymore. It was then that it clicked in me that so much of what he does is to manipulate a specific response out of me. Never again did I beg him to stay. He then switch to telling me to leave the house, what did I do? I packed my bags got in the car and left. He soon would call and ask me to come back. This happened over and over again. Sometimes in the middle of the night. I finally got to the point where I said if you want to get away from me then you need to leave, I'm staying here. If I change how I handle something he changes what he does, It's a game to him. They want control, you need to take back your control. He can't take your security if you don't trust it with him in the first place. My husband would go out and be with his cousins and it would totally irritate me because he would never check in, he would be drinking and I would be worried about him the entire time. I stopped that too, If he wants to make foolish decisions then he can deal with them. I think he feeds off of knowing that I wanted contact with him and he wasn't giving it. I send 1 text now, "tell me when you are on your way home. Love you" Then I go do something for me.   
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2015, 03:06:57 PM »

Hi Ceruleanblue,

please heed the good advice of Cloudy Days. This is really about boundaries and letting the dice fall as they may.

It is time for you to take a step back and take stock. The past weeks you sound more and more desperate to control a situation which is - knowing what we know of pwBPD - almost uncontrollable. The more you try to control the more you both focus on each other instead of focusing on yourself. Checking his DBT homework is just an example of attention on him that backfires by triggering you. The same happens on the other side as well ("You don't do anything right" thread). You both are busy judging each other. Your marriage will fail if you continue your current path. You marriage may fail on another path, nobody knows for sure but it is a path that restores your self esteem and respect between you two.
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2015, 03:10:19 PM »

I feel he's lucky to have someone who stays with him in the face of this PD he has. I'd think he'd have a sense of gratitude

It's one thing to stay with, be supportive, be a positive in another person's life.  This kind of "attitude of deserving gratitude" is a negative and can be sensed a million miles away; nobody truly wants pity. Staying "in the face of" a BPD-style dysregulation simply breeds more contempt.  Plus, it's not very healthy or calming for either party.

Self-soothe... . :)eep breaths... . Aahhhhhh... .

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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2015, 04:45:21 PM »

Your marriage will fail if you continue your current path. 

CB,

You are 100% in control of the path you are currently on... .I'm not speaking about your husbands actions... .

I don't believe an0ught is either... .

I am concerned that it doesn't seem that we (I) have your attention on this...    Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  

I have really enjoyed getting to know you on these boards... .you have endured a lot... .and seem to have learned quite a few of the lessons.

Recently... .it appears that the r/s (on both sides) has gotten really "reactive"... .where each sides "reaction" to the other "ups the ante"... .

The good parts that you are doing seems to be getting overwhelmed in areas that you are still struggling with... .(and should probably disengage from... .)... .such as telling him things... .

Please follow 123Phoebes advice... .breath... .self soothe

Take a step back... .observe and report to us on things... .don't participate... .

    

You can do this!

FF
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2015, 05:08:50 PM »

I only mentioned the gratitude thing because it was something he said to me recently that made me think he "got it" to some small degree. I've always thought he really feels scorned, and ego bruised because his first wife left him. I was hoping he would start to feel that attitude of gratitude he was talking about, not for MY sake, but for his. I try to practice a spirit of gratitude myself. I didn't think his attitude would actually be displayed to me, because with the BPD, he seems to not like to give me affirmation, but I thought it might be good for HIM. Especially since he was the one who said it.

I frequently look at his DBT handouts, so I can sort of know what he's learning. He does talk about it, and I actually know he wouldn't mind if I'd looked. Lots of times he'll give it to me to look through, or there will be a page or two we have to do together. Plus, I may not have BPD, but I feel there is lots for anyone to learn by using the DBT skills. I'm all about learning new ways to handle stress/upset/dysregs.

I don't feel I am reactive at this time. I feel I was the day of the kitty litter incident, but I don't feel I have been since then. I don't feel trying to have a normal conversation with my husband means I'm reactive. Being reactive would have been me retaliating for him dousing my bed. I let him sleep, and cool off.

I actually don't see where I'm telling him things either? Maybe my posts made it seem that way, but that simply is not the case. I fear "telling" him anything. I would never think to tell him what he can/can't do, or how things should be. I'm just not a controlling person, and would fear his reaction too much to attempt that. Even boundaries are hard for me, but I'm keeping a few intact, but those involve ME, not him. If he doesn't respect my boundary, I walk away. Luckily, the only one I can't fix by walking away involves him taking my car, but he's respecting that anyway. Right now, I'm pretty much going along with anything he wants, if it doesn't cross a boundary for me. I'm just not up to any drama.

I do think I'm in control of me, and my path. The issue is like CloudyDays said, when I make a good change(for me), he changes plans. I haven't reacted badly to that, but it does get tiring.

And yeah, for now I'm on a path of avoidance. It feels cowardly though, I have to admit. I participate or engage with him as little as I have to. He came home for lunch today, and all went well, so maybe tonight's MC will go okay.

I never know what lie he's going to tell in MC, and it's making me start to hate MC. He twists things, and I'm getting tired of defending myself, which seems to me like I'm JADE-ing, but how do I avoid that in MC?

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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2015, 06:18:44 PM »

Cerulean,

I worry you don't feel you have an alternative to this marriage.

Do you have a place to live if the marriage ends? Personal income of your own? Do you own property or have an investment portfolio? A work history, or particular skills or talents that you can readily turn into your very own sense of confidence and security?

Or are you maybe placing too much burden on a fragile marriage that is only a few years' duration?

If you already have your own Plan B, I like the idea of starting to flesh it out a bit, even if just to take pressure off both you and your husband. And if you don't, this would be a great time to turn some of your energy to creating that healthy Plan B.

It might even save your marriage.

Because something feels way too tense here at the moment, and it seems to be sabotaging the relationship itself.



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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2015, 06:44:02 PM »

Because something feels way too tense here at the moment, and it seems to be sabotaging the relationship itself.

CB,

Lots of people seem to be seeing... .sensing... this... .please take some time... .think about your r/s... .think about the posts that you have written.  Maybe read them... .hopefully you can read them with some "detachment"... .

When I read them... .I see... .get lots of  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2015, 06:57:32 PM »

I actually don't see where I'm telling him things either? 

  I've been telling him to "veg out"(his term for watching tv, or other solitary pursuits he likes), but while he complained about needing more "veg out" time, he won't do it if I suggest it! It's like if I suggest it, he resents it, then wants to do something with me, of his choosing of course. 

I've not searched all your posts... .but this seems to be a common way of you relating to your husband... .one that I think you should consider changing... .

What if you made no suggestions to him... .unless he specifically asks...

Him complaining... .is not asking... .

So... .he complains... .pat his arm... .hand him a cool glass of water and enjoy one for yourself... . 

Maybe swat him on the rear and assure him he will figure it out... .

Then carry on with your day... .

Find a totally new way to deal with the dynamic of "telling" him things... .my guess is that he feels controlled... .as you suggest... .

This is going to take a long time for this feeling to subside... .

FF
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2015, 09:28:00 PM »

Formflier: I see where you are going with that, but I only told him to "veg out" because he complained about needing more HIM time(which is funny because that is mostly what he does with his non work time anyway). I'm not giving him permission per se, but it's my way of saying "hey, I'm cool with that". I said it when he was trying to do things he thought I'd want because I think he sense just how off balance our relationship is?

Will how I word it, or not word it make that much of a difference? I hope so.

If I end up single again, I'll probably just move in my parents walk out below them, as it's where my son is now, and it feels like home. It needs some updating, but it's a two bedroom, and the people they bought it from lived there, and their son up above. It feels like home to me, and finding a job in my old hometown shouldn't be too hard. I could even go back to school, which seems daunting, but doable maybe.

MC was tonight, and I think our T may have gotten through a little bit, to both of us. BPDh is back to being a barnacle on my pretty 19 year old daughter, which really creeps me out. His family has noticed, my family has noticed, and it's been addressed with him ad nauseum, and he'll back off for a bit, but he's right back at it. Heck, I know it's harmless, and there is nothing going on, but it creeps me out that a 48 year old man enjoys spending os much time with a 19 year old. As of now, instead of letting it upset me, I'm just going to enjoy the break.

I'm just glad MC wasn't a horrific ordeal this week. So many times I come away feeling like I've been under attack. 
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2015, 09:40:17 PM »

I could even go back to school, which seems daunting, but doable maybe.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Today's community colleges (at least in my area) are wonderful. You wouldn't believe the number of people over thirty and even over forty who take classes there--really practical classes that lead to current employment opportunities. I highly recommend, whether you remain married or move on.

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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2015, 09:55:04 PM »

I have already left my relationship, so maybe this is not a proper post.

I just want to know why you would feel ok with him being with your 19 year old daughter?   I also do remember reading that you left your son with your parents. 

Before I left there was many things that I was willing to do.  Just not what you are giving up. 

I do validate you that you are doing what ever you can to keep your marriage together, but I am also seeing the things, or people that you are giving up. 

Sorry if I shouldn't be posting this in this section.
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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2015, 10:34:22 PM »

Your post was fine. I wouldn't give him unlimited access to my daughter if I didn't fully trust him in that regard, but I have to admit it somewhat bothers me. It almost feels like he thrives on her attention, and he places her in my role. Like just tonight, we all went out for ice cream, they end up walking together, I'm odd man out, and no matter how slowly I walked for BPDh to walk with me, he stayed with her. Adjusted his pace even. I used to get aggravated at my daughter, because I do think she manipulates the situation some. She knows it bothers me, and she loves the attention from him. I feel she needs a Dad figure, and she does treat him like her Dad/friend, but I feel there is some odd attachment on his part. He was the same way with his biological girls(and one adopted), and it used to drive his ex wife crazy.

I see my son as much as I want to, which right now, isn't super often. He's been super disrespectful to me for years, and some of BPDh's attitude towards him is deserved. I've reached out to my son over and over, my folks have talked to him about how disrespectful he is to me, but it does no good. He's basically a very good kid, never caused me any real issue outside his anger problems(which have greatly diminished), and his utter disrespect towards me. I'm letting him reach out to me, but I do check in with him. I'll probably go see him tomorrow, but I know he'll probably just end up being rude again. In my life, I've been surrounded with angry men, and I gave birth to an angry son.

And yeah, I think I may pursue the community college thing. My daughter is going full time to our local community college, plus working two jobs, and she says she sees older people all the time. She's also offered to help me, bless her heart.
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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2015, 11:07:52 PM »

IDK, I thought children were not born angry, that they become angry if they can't deal with things, and 48 yo men don't go out with 19 yo girls unless they are looking to get something. 

I think I will just go back to my other side now.  People who are learning to deal with this.

Wish you the best.

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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2015, 01:55:42 AM »

My BPDh isn't "going out" with my daughter. I was out with them too. Not sure if you read it incorrectly. I put up with a lot, but I would not stay with a man that I thought would mess with my daughter. Plus, I know my daughter only sees him as a father figure. She even slips and calls us her parents. And I'd agree he likely wants something, and I think that's her admiration. He's lost his own three daughters as of now, so maybe he views her as a replacement. He definitely considers her his daughter. Just wish his generosity had extended to my son.

I think we are all trying to figure out how to deal with the fallout from BPD, on this board, as well as the others.
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2015, 02:52:38 AM »

First of all, you are to be commended on your hard work and commitment so far!

I agree with the advice and feedback given so far but wonder at the together/not together extremes. If I had to go back and do it again with what I know now, I would do a Therapeutic Separation around March of this year. I think that sitting down and saying something along the lines of, "I value you and our relationship so much that I want to help myself to become a more complete person so that we can be together for a very long time." Don't ask. Just let him know. Move to your parent's place and take up the project of fixing it in case you have to be there for the long term. Arrange weekly couples counseling and private sessions for yourself. When  you're ready, plan regular dates and start spending the weekends with him, but take it slowly.

From my limited but growing understanding of BPD, he is going to be more secure if you tell him the plan up front than if you wait for it to fall apart completely and just split. Be proactive! This is YOUR relationship! Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2015, 11:46:36 PM »

I'll consider doing that, but the only thing is, we already did that. When he left last time, we were no contact for nearly a couple months, then we started talking, then "dating", and we took all of this really slowly. He didn't move right back in, but when he did we started couples counseling. We are still in couples counseling. I do need to find a local therapist for myself now that we've moved.

I'm giving some consideration to maybe spending a few days a week there, but when I suggested it to BPDh a few days ago, he didn't like that idea. He goes from threatening to throw me out, to saying my spending a few days a week away is bad. I don't get it, but that's nothing new.

I do want this to last long term, but getting him to want that, is the thing. Sometimes he wants that, and other times he's very down on the marriage. I think A LOT of it has to do with how his three girls refuse to accept me, or be around me. He was totally enmeshed with them, and his identity was really tied up in them, and he's lost that. It would be nice, if he's get his own identity, and strong sense of "self". I feel the longer they hold out, the more reasons he casts about to find flaws in our marriage, me, himself, and he'll write us off again, just to get those angry, dysfunctional girls back in his life. Thereby giving them control back.

Today, spending time at my folks, I felt to relaxed, and at ease. I spent quality time with my son, and my parents. My Mom doesn't even like to call me because she thinks it upsets BPDh. My SIL(married to BPDh's brother) feels the same. I'm thinking more time spent at my folks would be very good for ME.
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2015, 06:45:43 AM »

 

Don't "suggest" things to your husband... .

Pick out two things that you would like to do...

"Hey hubby... .this weekend would you like to do x... or y?"

If he picks... .great... .

If not... let him know which one you will be doing... .and that you hope he comes... .and that you are looking forward to participating in his plans the next weekend (or something like that)

FF
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2015, 11:27:36 AM »

Oh, I like that idea a lot. Then he can pick, and he shouldn't be shocked if I do it alone. I just know it will end up that he feels controlled though, but that is his choice to feel that way? Recently, it's been worse, but there's always been a huge imbalance of us doing what he wants. I'd be happy to get to do my thing even once in a while.
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2015, 11:40:26 AM »

  Recently, it's been worse, but there's always been a huge imbalance of us doing what he wants. I'd be happy to get to do my thing even once in a while.

Who is responsible for this imbalance?

FF
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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2015, 01:09:44 PM »

He's responsible for the imbalance, but I'm responsible for allowing it in the first place, and at times picking my battles. It's just hard, because sometimes giving in is easier. It's sort of choosing which hill is worth fighting for.   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2015, 01:39:00 PM »

He's responsible for the imbalance, but I'm responsible for allowing it in the first place, and at times picking my battles. It's just hard, because sometimes giving in is easier. It's sort of choosing which hill is worth fighting for.   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

By handing him responsibility... .you are handing him power... .and minimizing your role in it.

He is 100% responsible for the choices in his life... .

You are 100% responsible for the choices in your life... .

Own yourself... .own your power... .

FF
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