"I'm not doing this to hurt you, why are you upset?" Help me work through this

[Depression = 72% of members]

I learned a number of things from my boyfriend in the past couple of weeks about how he is thinking.

1. He gives me silent treatment because he is angry. Not because he is one of those people trying to calm themselves. He is retaliating against me for showing upset or panic attacks.

2. He is deliberately withholding behavior on his part to heal the relationship and restore trust because he is angry at me for being upset or having panic attacks when he lies/interacts with other women/various shady behaviors.

3. And maybe the crux of it all, is this: he says he is not trying to hurt me, so he doesn't understand why I am so upset/sad/angry/have massive panic attacks over what he is doing. It's NOT his fault I feel upset, so why is he having to put up with my "substandard" behavior where I confront him and he "is not doing anything wrong."


Ok. Number three. I have heard this over and over again. Over the long term. He said to me the other day that he doesn't understand why I need him to rebuild trust with me in the way that I need it. The basic idea he is promoting is that he is trustworthy, so my continued "raging" at his innocent behaviors is upsetting him so much, he cannot bring himself to speak to me or do what I am asking him to do, specifically:

Stop one on one time with the affair girl or any other woman.

Offer calm reassurance when I express anxiety instead of retaliating with hateful youtube videos or nasty comments about how crap I am.

According to him he is not looking to be involved with other women. So as a trustworthy person, he is angered and insulted that I am getting upset. To remind readers, he had an affair, continues contact with the lady, lied to me a few days ago, gaslit me, then acted punitively on the idea the lie was true. When caught out, all he wanted to talk about was how much trouble I cause by getting upset at all of the above. He flat out told me he didn't want to talk about the lie, the gaslighting, OR how he was smacking me for being upset about what he just did.

Ok, to clarify what he is telling me: he told me this week that he does not want to hurt me. His motivation for anything has nothing at all to do with wanting to hurt me. He has told me in the past, after his affair and such that he did not do it to hurt me, so why I am I blaming him for hurting me

I have said to him, "but you knew it would hurt me."

He replies it's not his fault that I am hurt. I am getting hurt on my own. I am getting hurt all by myself due to my own feelings. So it is not his fault. Now, he wants to know, why should HE have to deal with me as an person who is upset and angry at him? Why should HE have to stop playing one on one Frisbee with some woman, when he intends nothing but to enjoy himself playing the game. He isn't doing it to hurt me, and he is TIRED of me getting upset with him when he isn't doing anything wrong.

The gist is since he is not trying to hurt me, I have no right to be upset. So he is now MAD at me for "attacking" him for "no reason" and is too upset to talk to me. If only I would "just stop making the same mistake over and over again", he would be able to take action to restore trust with me, and we could be together and happy.

I need some help here. I told him I would give him a thoughtful response. He appears to entirely lack empathy and common sense.

Help me work through this, because I think his thought process on this is key to why we are unable to sort things out.

[Daniell85]

I learned a number of things from my boyfriend in the past couple of weeks about how he is thinking.

1. He gives me silent treatment because he is angry. Not because he is one of those people trying to calm themselves. He is retaliating against me for showing upset or panic attacks.

2. He is deliberately withholding behavior on his part to heal the relationship and restore trust because he is angry at me for being upset or having panic attacks when he lies/interacts with other women/various shady behaviors.

3. And maybe the crux of it all, is this: he says he is not trying to hurt me, so he doesn't understand why I am so upset/sad/angry/have massive panic attacks over what he is doing. It's NOT his fault I feel upset, so why is he having to put up with my "substandard" behavior where I confront him and he "is not doing anything wrong."


Ok. Number three. I have heard this over and over again. Over the long term. He said to me the other day that he doesn't understand why I need him to rebuild trust with me in the way that I need it. The basic idea he is promoting is that he is trustworthy, so my continued "raging" at his innocent behaviors is upsetting him so much, he cannot bring himself to speak to me or do what I am asking him to do, specifically:

Stop one on one time with the affair girl or any other woman.

Offer calm reassurance when I express anxiety instead of retaliating with hateful youtube videos or nasty comments about how crap I am.

According to him he is not looking to be involved with other women. So as a trustworthy person, he is angered and insulted that I am getting upset. To remind readers, he had an affair, continues contact with the lady, lied to me a few days ago, gaslit me, then acted punitively on the idea the lie was true. When caught out, all he wanted to talk about was how much trouble I cause by getting upset at all of the above. He flat out told me he didn't want to talk about the lie, the gaslighting, OR how he was smacking me for being upset about what he just did.

Ok, to clarify what he is telling me: he told me this week that he does not want to hurt me. His motivation for anything has nothing at all to do with wanting to hurt me. He has told me in the past, after his affair and such that he did not do it to hurt me, so why I am I blaming him for hurting me

I have said to him, "but you knew it would hurt me."

He replies it's not his fault that I am hurt. I am getting hurt on my own. I am getting hurt all by myself due to my own feelings. So it is not his fault. Now, he wants to know, why should HE have to deal with me as an person who is upset and angry at him? Why should HE have to stop playing one on one Frisbee with some woman, when he intends nothing but to enjoy himself playing the game. He isn't doing it to hurt me, and he is TIRED of me getting upset with him when he isn't doing anything wrong.

The gist is since he is not trying to hurt me, I have no right to be upset. So he is now MAD at me for "attacking" him for "no reason" and is too upset to talk to me. If only I would "just stop making the same mistake over and over again", he would be able to take action to restore trust with me, and we could be together and happy.

I need some help here. I told him I would give him a thoughtful response. He appears to entirely lack empathy and common sense.

Help me work through this, because I think his thought process on this is key to why we are unable to sort things out.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[sweetheart]

Ok Daniell85,

I hear what your saying and I want to cut to the chase... .

What do you want to do if your bf continues to do what he's doing?

I also want to add that I don't think his thought processes are key here, for me yours are.

Again for me a thoughtful response is no longer necessary, you've have already given him that.

What I believe will be important for you now is to think about boundary enforcement and what that might look like for you.

[Daniell85]

Ok, the thing he did the other day... .I told him to stop or I would end our relationship. I would kick him from Skype, block him, and we would not be talking again.

I mean it. This issue is one he has toyed with me over for 3 years. I never told him before I would end the relationship and cut him off permanently. I will do exactly that. I don't like the arguing and I don't like what I feel are games he is playing.

What it looks like over that issue, is my boundry being crossed will end up with me ending the relationship. So far he has not crossed the boundry where I can see it. If I find out later that he has done so, I will end the relationship.

Maybe it sounds extreme. I can deal with the silent treatment now that I understand he is mad and trying to hurt me. I am not all churned up over it now.

Do you think he really doesn't connect his hurtful behaviors with actually hurting me? He is just pleasing himself. That is his reasoning. He is just making himself happy. Not intending to hurt me. And all my problem if I am hurt.

To me that is nonsense.

[Notwendy]

I told him to stop or I would end our relationship. I would kick him from Skype, block him, and we would not be talking again.


You have set a boundary, so you need to be sure to enforce it if he does not stop. Stating an ultimatum is fine, so long as it is one you can uphold. If not, then he will learn that what you say means nothing. Also, since people tend to test boundaries, you can be prepared for your boundary to be tested and to follow through with it.

Also, boundaries do not need to be spoken, they are actually a part of you. If you do not wish to continue a relationship with someone who you feel is behaving disrespectfully to you, then that is your boundary. A boundary is not something you put on a person. So, if your boundary is to not continue to be in a relationship with someone whose behavior you are not comfortable with then you can discontinue the relationship without any explanation.

For those of us who choose to stay in a relationship, we can have boundaries around the behavior. I do not like the ST. What made the ST so effective on me was that I made it about me, took it personally, was hurt, tried to control it " oh please, say something to me honey" or told him it bothered me. Once I stopped responding to it, it didn't work anymore and it diminished. It was not about the other person. I can't control it. I ignore the ST and do something else. If the conversation gets mean or critical, I stop talking. No explanation, just stop. It takes two to get into these things and if I don't participate it doesn't work.

Actually, your bf is probably not trying to hurt you to be mean. If you consider the victim triangle, the perspective of victim isn't usually on the other person. The "victim" can lash out at who he or she sees as the "persecutor" at the moment. When in victim mode, a person is more concerned about their own feelings than the feelings of the person he or she feels is the persecutor. Read about the victim triangle to get more of an explanation.

You can't control your BF, only your reaction to his behavior. Nobody likes to be treated poorly. He isn't responding to what you say about being hurt. If it hurts you, you can decide your own boundaries. As Sweetheart says-it's about what you think and do.

[Daniell85]

I'm feeling very little patience with his shady behaviors. A lot of my panic issues have been caused by me putting myself in a situation with him in order to try to extend trust... which he openly tears down.

I don't trust him. Simple. After the other day, I figured putting myself in that position of vulnerability is not possible for me, now. His complaint is I am getting upset. Of course I am. I can stop a lot of it by avoiding him for now.

In the last month, its gotten pretty intense. There are two women who have been contacting me to gloat in my face about him hating me. I don't like that.

Sure, it probably comes across as an ultimatum. I am fully willing to back it up. I don't feel afraid to lose him anymore.

I'm feeling a lot of anger about what i have gone through with him. Infidelity is obviously destructive to a relationship. I dont feel tolarant to him explaining his responsibility for the damage he has caused away with since he didnt do it to hurt me, if i am hurt, its all my fault and he abuses me for showing the upset or wanting him to at least stop making it worse.

At some point, hes going to understand that i dont have to talk to him either.

[waverider]

If you are upset at something he has done=criticism of his behavior=attack on him=retaliation required as this is the go to defense.

In his mind he is not attacking or retaliating he is defending himself against your criticisms. He can't change the initial behavior that sparked it as that is who he is, so he blocks it as part of the equation. To him that is akin to criticizing him for having curly hair.

I see this mechanism all the time. Rather than addressing the initial issues that caused the problems more denials and projections are piled on to bury it.

Ownership is lacking, no one wants to own a problem they believe they can't change

[Notwendy]

At some point, hes going to understand that i dont have to talk to him either.

Of course, any relationship involves two people, and the feelings/understanding of two people, but for the sake of being effective, the focus has to be on you.

In actuality, his understanding anything is not in your control. All you can control is your reaction to his behavior. One way to re- frame this is that you don't have to talk to him. This is only effective if you decide that this is what you want to do. Not talking to him in order to have of a result on his understanding isn't necessarily going to work or not, and if is isn't something you wish to do for you, then you aren't acting in your best interest.

Yes, this is the staying board, but the risk of acting according to our own boundaries is that the other person doesn't like it- and then is faced with their own choices- to stay and possibly change, or leave. This doesn't mean we threaten the idea- take it or leave it. It means we begin to act in ways that are true to ourselves and if the other person is not comfortable- it is their decision to deal with this behavior. This doesn't mean we are being cruel or inconsiderate, we should not be cruel to others,  but consider that if we allow ourselves to be treated poorly- for the sake of their feelings, we are being cruel to ourselves.


In actuality, we already act on our  boundaries every day with people.  :)o you lock your car or front door? Does someone who might want to break into your car like it? Probably not, but do you even care if she or he does? Probably not- because it is your car and you protect your car. Do you explain with a sign " Hi, I lock my car because I don't want you to break in"  No, car is locked, and that is that.

Boundaries are similar in a way. Don't like talking to these women who gloat in your face? Don't interact with them. Don't like the shady behavior- you can decide your reaction to it. However, it isn't possible to control anyone else's behavior or their understanding.

[Notwendy]

WW is spot on. I has been interesting to see the "other side" of being treated poorly.  From my perspective, I thought my mother ( with severe BPD) treated my father poorly. Yet, listening to her, she was his victim. Even things he did that had nothing to do with her were perceived as " He did this to ME".  Even a slight or perceived criticism will trigger my mother into an altered state.

I considered this perspective in my relationship with my H who I feel has some similar personality traits, and I realized what WW is saying about bringing up behaviors being seen as criticisms- and criticisms are perceived as vicious attacks. In this context, these perceived attacks can result in a self defense reaction that can be more intense than the remark that we say- they think we are destroying them- in that moment. I tend to be a "get it out in the open" person. Early in my marriage, I might say that something my H did bothered me ,thinking that if someone said it to me, I would say " sorry, I didn't mean this to bother you" and try to work it out. However, these comments resulted in some retaliatory behavior that was very hurtful. The ST was a favorite and it used to hurt like h*ll.

Listening to my H, he perceived he was being attacked. He used words like " you're hammering me" "beating me with this" and described me as some kind of ogre. He denied that he was treating me poorly, as he believed it was justified. The smallest thing could set him off. This is how I began to walk on eggshells with him. However, this was a pattern I had to break.

Words didn't work well with him, but boundaries do. However, infidelity is a strong boundary that we both have and it would probably be a deal breaker for us if it happened ( I did have some concerns about that possibility on his part a long time ago, but I don't at the moment). We all set our boundaries somewhere. However, I did allow him to treat me poorly for a long time. I had to stop treating myself poorly by being overly concerned about rocking the boat. It was a risk.

[Daniell85]

Well how am to handle any of this effectively if I don't address a core issue in the relationship. Cheating destroys everything about a relationship. Trust, intimacy.

He is ok with what he is doing. He wants to do it and have the relationship with me, where I am calm and happy, and he gets trust and intimacy. I can't do it. The panic attacks with him are a result of trying to do it.

He did stop the behavior of the one on one with that girl. I think he feels ok about it because as it turns out he took himself in a different direction and violated other agreements. I hadn't actually made as stiff a boundry on it. My boundry was, I cannot be close to someone who does those things. And he knows all about that one because the whole last year he was hearing it and I would remove myself from interacting with him for a few days and he would stop the behavior.

Now he is back at it. He is constantly at something. I feel hurt and angry. I asked him for 3 things in order to recover with him. He will go along ok for a while and I will think things are ok. Then boom out of the blue he does them again. They all involve shady behavior with other women.

I have 3 choices. Act like it's all ok ( it's NOT), try to remind him ( he knows), or keep going about my business and make myself absent. ( doubt he cares).

I understand Waverider, his thought processes. I simply don't know how to work with that. I already tried. Nothing I do is effective. Nothing at all.

[Daniell85]

Also, Notwendy,  I blocked the ladies.

I hear what is being said about boundries. The only boundry I have that doesn't involve getting sucked into an upset and futile efforts that mess my life up is for me to shrug and go do other things. Problem is I have done that over and over and when we start interacting again, it's a simple matter of time before he violates one of those three boundries.

I don't think what I am doing is really having any effect if he sets us back to square one every month or so. Don't really know what to do. Except leave.

[123Phoebe]

Don't really know what to do. Except leave.

The choice is yours and has always been

[Daniell85]

I know. I wanted to see if I changed, maybe he would, too.

[Notwendy]

You can only do so much, and then, his behavior is out of control.

When someone crosses your boundary, you have choices of things to try.

1) discuss how this bothers you, and see if the other person will respond by respecting your boundary.

2) address the core issue with your partner. In a relationship, you can hope that the other person is invested enough to listen, but then he or she has the choice of what to do with your request.

I think you have done #1 and #2

3) If the person continues to violate your boundaries, continue the behavior that bothers you, then you have a choice to continue the relationship and accept the behavior, or terminate it.

You can not make or influence another human being to do what you think or wish he or she would do. The other person has to choose to respond to your request in a way you want them to, but there is always the other choice.

I know this is the staying board, but you have the right to determine your deal breakers, the conditions on which you consider most important in a relationship. If fidelity is one and he is not faithful- you can not make him not cheat if he wants to.

Couples have overcome infidelity, however, from what I have seen of people who have done this, the person who cheated is sorry and wants to work at healing the relationship. The person cheated on is also invested in the relationship, and wants to see if it is possible to heal. The couples I know have been willing to go to MT. This is just limited to couples I know, but I believe that overcoming this takes work on both people in some way.

The decision of what to do about your boyfriend's behavior lies with you, and while it may not be a choice you want to make, he is who he is. Perhaps other posters can make other suggestions.

[Daniell85]

Ok, this is what he is saying about the cheating. He did do it. He said it was stupid of him.

Ok. What he wants is to proceed on the basis that he learned his lesson and is now trustworthy.

So if he wants to hang out with some chick alone practicing his game, it's ok because he is only practicing.

If he wants to have dinner with affair chick while they work together a couple times a month, then why is Danielle upset? He is not doing anything wrong. He is eating with a person he is working with. He is not interested in any sex, emotional connection, or a relationship with her.

If he wants to do anything else that involves other women, his intentions are above board. So why is Danielle upset?

Danielle is upset and afraid because this is how the affair began. Danielle is upset because two women are taking aim at her and she is getting ugly stuff at her.

I am not convinced it is sensible to trust someone who already did those things and gets mad at ME for being upset at the nasties coming at me from women who have an agenda with him. Women he has already crossed boundries with.

I can tell who his real women friends are. They are nice to me.

[Notwendy]

The boundary for "cheating" can be blurry ( Think Bill Clinton- "I did not have sex with that woman" ... .well, depends on how you define sex).

Does sex start with an intimate conversation, a kiss, making out, or the actual  this is how you make a baby act? If it is what one does to make a baby, then indeed, Mr. Clinton did not have sex.

You are dealing with an important issue, because that line can be different for different people. A poster once mentioned that Billy Graham is never alone with a woman. An orthodox Jewish man won't be in a room alone with or shake hands with a woman. Neither of these two situations is cheating or sex, but they draw their line much father away from that.

My H had a coworker who I knew had a huge crush on him and made it known she was available to him. I was upset about him spending a lot of time with her. As far as he was concerned, as long as he didn't do anything wrong, my being upset was my problem. I had to decide to trust him or not.

My H has been over the top jealous of situations where absolutely nothing has gone on- large groups with spouses and kids in attendance, and some of the males are old friends of mine. 

I think he flew "closer to the flame" than I have, but our tolerance of other people's behavior is different. However, we are married, and my H did consider that he was risking his marriage with co-worker and established distance with her. I had no control over this though, he had to decide.  My other choice was to leave the relationship, but I didn't have grounds to do that.

I also chose to go to my school reunion even if my H was upset about it.

Bottom line- he has no control over me, and I have no control over him. Our "do not cheat" boundaries are our own.

Same with you and bf. If he thinks it is Ok to go to dinner with that woman, you can choose to trust him, or not.

[Daniell85]

There is no reason to trust him.

[Daniell85]

I just kicked him from Skype. I am done. He spent the night at an ex's house.

They are JUST FRIENDS.

I don't care.

[Daniell85]

That was the 3rd agreement. And one of the women who has been taunting me.

[Notwendy]

I think you have made your decision.

To reframe this and make it about you:

I, Danielle, am worthy of a relationship that includes mutual trust and respect. Sexual fidelity is a strong value to me in a relationship. Because of my VALUES ( values=boundaries), I will only be intimate and in a relationship where my values are upheld and respected. I will also behave in accordance with my values as well.

If I find myself in a relationship where I do not feel my values are respected, then I will not continue to be in it.

This is about you, not him, and if you maintain boundaries and love yourself enough to not compromise what you truly feel in your heart, then only men who respect them will get past them. When we have poor boundaries, ( either too weak or too strong) we attract people who respond to those boundaries.

[Daniell85]

I am worn out.

[waverider]

You need to decide whether you are willing to expose yourself to living with someone you don't trust at all. You have to demonstrate that you are willing to make that choice. He then gets the option to do something about it. If he does nothing then you make your choice.

He is what he is, he also has the freedom to behave like this as no one has the power to stop him, except for himself.

As long as he can negotiate for a slice of the pie he will. pwBPD are experts at brinkmanship. Brinkmanship can't be overridden unless you are willing to go over the brink

It is about making hard choices and not feeling like you are being forced to do anything.

When you make it about you rather than him, then there is no debate about technicalities, the defining line is how his behavior is affecting you

[Daniell85]

His behavior ... .ok, let's put all on me ( and I am ok with that) is so effecting me when I try to be there with him,  that I have not been able to live even close to normally for over 2 years.

I don't like brinksmanship.

I could handle the other aspects of BPD, but the cheating just kills it for me. Simply, my heart isn't in it and I can't make it be.

[jynx]

Hi Daniell,

I read the question that your bf asks you.  It sounded familiar to me, so I was following along.  

Just know that I am divorced, so take what you can and leave the rest.

My ex had explained why he felt that way.  It slipped out during one of our visits to his psychologist.  The psychologist asked him, ":)o you listen to your wife when she says that she is upset"?  He responded "no, he doesn't, because it just makes him mad when I am upset, so he stops listening, and attacks, because he feels that I am "making him into a monster".  

It was then that I realized, that no matter how I try to say something, nothing will work, because he will feel attacked, and he will attack back, and he would be blaming me for making him feel bad about himself.  

Another thing that he had told me, this was in private though, that when he gets angry, he is at war, and I am the enemy, and he will do and say whatever he can to destroy the enemy.  What I also felt at that time was that once he took me down, he felt good about himself, didn't matter how I felt, he had released all of his anger, and now he wanted to have sex with me because he now felt good about himself.  

Took me a long time to comprehend this, but when I look back, it was true, I actually thought at the time that he was making this stuff up to push my buttons.  

So, if you can look back on your fights, can you see that whenever you might have been upset, that it just made him "mad"?

I am not telling you what to do, was just trying to give you an explanation, hopefully, so that you feel less crazy.

[Daniell85]

thanks for chiming in.

Any thing I say, no matter how politely stated, "makes" him angry. I already heard this from him. You are right, he feels he is being attacked and all else flies out of his head except to retaliate.

I am pretty angry atm. He made contact and warned me about my crappy behavior. He doesn't WANT to end things. He just wants me to stop being so reactive to his innocent behavior.

I am so ANGRY.

[patientandclear]

thanks for chiming in.

Any thing I say, no matter how politely stated, "makes" him angry. I already heard this from him. You are right, he feels he is being attacked and all else flies out of his head except to retaliate.

I am pretty angry atm. He made contact and warned me about my crappy behavior. He doesn't WANT to end things. He just wants me to stop being so reactive to his innocent behavior.

I am so ANGRY.

You two are probably not going to see eye to eye on this at a values level.  He isn't going to persuade you it's innocent and you aren't going to persuade him that it's crappy, insensitive or anti-relationship.

But if he doesn't want your relationship to end, he may make concessions to avoid that outcome.  He won't do that unless he's sure he needs to.

Can you be less angry and more resolved that you won't go on on these terms?  Then you can let his desire not to end the r/ship with you carry some of the load of resolving this.  Right now, you ARE staying in, on his terms.  So of course he's going to try to keep that going.

[Daniell85]

I have read a lot of your story, Patient. I've been left absolutely baffled how you have maintained your calm so well.

He pretends to give concessions. Then he sucker punches me. I get upset, panic, angry, and then he retaliates.

He uses the ex as a stop off on a long drive. As he is on vacation, he went on a short trip and he feels why should he pay for a hotel if he can crash at her place?

It's not HIS fault she decides to take a picture of him in bed, send it to me via text from his cell phone, and gloat.  HE didn't do anything wrong.

It begs the question. I had blocked her, but I didn't block him.

BTW, he is staying for lunch and will be back to his place late this evening.

I'm shaking. I don't know how some of you keep on.

[Daniell85]

Sorry, I missed the significance of what you said.

I can step away from him, leave status quo. He is off Skype.

It will take me a couple of weeks to calm down, but I have to avoid contact with him to get there.

So yes. I can.

[patientandclear]

Sorry, I missed the significance of what you said.

I can step away from him, leave status quo. He is off Skype.

It will take me a couple of weeks to calm down, but I have to avoid contact with him to get there.

So yes. I can.

What your guy is doing is not something I could or would put up with in a relationship.  That sort of thing caused me to take a big step back in my intimate connection with my ex, a step back we have still not repaired 20 months later.  So please don't think your reaction is out of proportion or over-sensitive.

If there are consequences to what he did, he may decide it's in his own self interest not to engage in this type on behavior any more.  But there do have to be consequences for him to engage in that sort of thinking.

He also might decide that crashing with exes on trips is more important to him that your r/ship.  He does get to make that choice.  But right now, he hasn't had to make it because he can have both.

I'm sorry you're so frayed.  I sure would be too.  My "calm" as you put it is the result of four years of taking myself out of situations with my BPD guy that hurt me.  I do not stick around for them.  (Sometimes I question whether I've been too fast to do it, but yeah, I'm the boundary girl, for sure.  It helps a ton with anxiety.)  My guy comes back around with some reason why I should think of it differently, I do, I get confused, hurt ... .that's my own struggle.  But participating when the terms are violating your own values and your sense of honor toward yourself -- that's not good for you.   

[Notwendy]

Have you ever seen small children during a pool break, or heard the parent say " you can't get into the pool until 30 minutes after you eat?" Right in front of their parents, these kids are going to go right up to the edge of the pool, hang their little toes off the edge or poke their toes in and just see what the parent will do. The parents usually say " I told you not to get into the pool" the child will grin and say " but I'm not in the pool" . Eventually, one might accidentally fall in, and then will face the wrath of an irate parent.

Kids test boundaries, it is what they do. As parents, we need to protect them, but not so much that they don't face the natural consequences of breaking them. That is how they learn. So for instance, you would not let a child do something dangerous, heaven forbid, but if your child always forgets a jacket on the way to school, and you always bring it to him, he may never learn that he is going to get cold without it. However, if you let him forget it, and experience being cold, he is likely to remember his jacket.

That is also how adults learn. Pw PBD also tend to test boundaries. However, they too need to learn that - if they cheat on their partner, then that can cost them the relationship. If they yell at their boss, then they can lose their job.  If they don't go to work because they didn't feel like it, and their partner calls the boss and says " my partner is sick today" then that partner is enabling the dysfunction.

A partner who doesn't let the natural consequences of their behavior occur is robbing them of the learning experience. If your partner cheats and you hang in there, then you teach him it is OK. If he calls the shots while you get upset, then he learns he can call the shots. If you enforce your boundary, then he is left to deal with that circumstance. Now you have given him the chance to do so, but still, you have the choice of what you can do regardless.

[Daniell85]

He keeps coming back around, assuring me he can do what is needed to restore trust. But. He doesn't understand why I need it the way I do.

I understand he is saying he doesn't understand why I need him to stop one on one time spent with other ladies. Why I need him to stop overnights at the ex's. Why I need him to stop lunches with the affair girl at work.

He literally is saying to me that he does not understand why HE should be inconvenienced on these actions so that I can recover trust I am expected to explain to him why these things destroy trust? really?

Does it even matter why I need it? Isn't it enough for him to know what it is that restores trust for me without debating me on it?

And you guys are saying, when he crosses those boundries... end the relationship? I can do that. I guess I have this terrible image in my mind of how that looks... over and over and over. Scary.

Patient, do you ever date between times of trying to sort it out with your BPD guy? I'm not saying I am desperate to date. In fact, I feel so depleted, I feel awful at the thought of it.

[waverider]

Very high motivators for BPD behaviors=impulse, need and immediate gratification

Very low motivators for BPD=Obligation and responsibility

Behavioral change wont come from the latter only the former. Boundaries block a need, compliance is the only way to get this need met. Hence the explosion when that need is blocked. His choice will be based not on what is the responsible thing to do, but which is the stronger need pull, being with you, or freedom to be with others.

In the meantime he will feel deprived by not being allowed to have both needs met. As you are forcing this choice it is your fault.

In his mind him being with others is his business and nothing to do with you. He sees you as interfering with his needs and instant gratification.

Obviously in the bigger long term picture this type of behavior cannot have a good result, but he can't read that reality as todays instant gratification is clouding that vision.

This is why it is important for us nons to get out of the passenger seat and take the wheel before our life goes over a cliff

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

This is why it is important for us nons to get out of the passenger seat and take the wheel before our life goes over a cliff

I wish there was a "like" button for this.

[patientandclear]

Patient, do you ever date between times of trying to sort it out with your BPD guy? I'm not saying I am desperate to date. In fact, I feel so depleted, I feel awful at the thought of it.

When I'm not actively exploring a committed r/s with him, and if I met someone I found interesting and attractive, yes, for sure, I'd pursue that.  I haven't met anyone I find worth sticking with, but I've been in early stages of exploring with a few other men over the past few years.  I wish I found more men compelling.  It was easier when I was 25 and most people I like enough to pursue in that way were still either available or about to be available.  Now I'm twice that age and it's not that way anymore.

But the point is -- heck yeah, if I met someone else, while this man who's been saying no to me all this time keeps saying no, you bet, I'd head in another direction.  I do want to be happy.  If it can be with him, I trust he'll make that apparent ... .

[Daniell85]

I am running into a lot of internal resistence. Mainly in the form of my own pain and anger. I feel that I am not in control of myself. I see other people here on this site and in comparison, I seem to be failing in everything. I end up sitting here weeping while trying to think I could even be worth enough to him for him to change his actions.

I realize other people in my life love me. So it isn't that I feel no one will or does love me.

Probably anyone reading this has the impulse to remind me that this isn't about my value, but about his BPD thinking. 

In the last week alone he has re inflicted all of the traumas on me that he took years to do prior. I am not feeling so good.

If it is not about me, then why?

I could almost feel some hope, if I actually believed that depriving him of my presence actually makes any difference. The relationship we have had is full of conflict. How could he possibly care really if I am not around. Most of the last 3 months has been him retaliating by giving me silent treatment. What is there for him to miss? How can he miss me at all when for 3 months he has been sitting there looking at me and getting nothing anyway, except upset from me with each blow I take?

How could I even matter at this point? I don't understand why he simply doesn't go away on his own instead of trying to hold me here like an insect on a pin while he tears my mental and emotional state to shreds. Some days I feel like he is trying to drive me to suicide. I have certainly had those moments.

[Daniell85]

Yes. I realize this boundry of no contact with him while he acts/thinks this way is how I protect myself from that. I still feel bad, though. :/

[waverider]

Hope for you

Hope for the relationship.

The former is not dependent on the later. The former is imperative, the latter is optional.

What changes if you send a clear message that you are OK to walk away from it, compared to him putting you down? Simple he losses control of the situation. Not being in control is at the core of most of this.

Taking control will change the dynamics, so things will change, no one can say where it will go, but staying the same is getting you nowhere

Take the wheel he can either be a passenger or walk, its his choice. At the moment he is telling you to buckle up and shut up.

[formflier]

Yes. I realize this boundry of no contact with him while he acts/thinks this way is how I protect myself from that. I still feel bad, though. :/

So... .if you are NC with him while he acts this way... .how do you know when he stops "acting this way... ."  ?

Notwendy made some great suggestions about the values that you will turn into boundaries... .is that something you can focus on for a while... .?  I think there is some good stuff there... .

FF

[Daniell85]

I don't know when he stops. I guess I figured at some undefined time he would try to make contact and maybe I would be open to it just to check and see if he shifted how he wants to handle things.

It really helps to re frame this as a control issue. Thanks for that insight. Actually the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I have been spinning in circles trying to figure out why the heck he sets me up for how he can fix things, then starts making it all about how upset I get and how I am constantly resisting falling in line.

Doesn't exactly inspire me to want to be around him now, knowing I have been so focused on him that my life has been burning up around me while he plays a control game.

Before this event the other day, I had gone silent on him for over two weeks. I felt ok with that. The grind of the anxiety lifted a lot, and I was just having a good day, so grateful for the feeling of peace in my chest.

Maybe he was trying to provoke me out of that. It worked and we were back into conflict. That bothers me a lot.

Ok, let's put him aside to be without me for now. I am good for working on my values and boundries.

Here is a value: I don't have relationships with people who effect me so badly my life ( whatever makes up my life) is being damaged.

I guess that leaves room for self improvement while keeping a possible option for him to be around later.

Thank you, everyone   

[formflier]

Here is a value: I don't have relationships with people who effect me so badly my life ( whatever makes up my life) is being damaged.

I'm glad we are sorting out your values... .one thing about values... .they should be clear... .short... .and to the point.

How do you define "people that affect you so badly"?  It seems to be open to interpretation... .I suggest tightening it up a bit.

Examples:  Not suggestions... .

I will not be in a r/s with someone that threatens me... .(still some interpretation there... .)  but a threat is "If you don't do x... .I will do Y... ."

I will not be in a r/s with a person that his having sex with someone else (very clear)

I will not be in a  r/s with someone that "pursues" members of the opposite sex (not so clear... what is "pursuit"

Remember... .these are your values... .you will be happy with them.  At some point... .you will have a romantic partner that you will let know about your values... .

You don't want him to be scratching his head... .going... "Soo... .what does that mean?"

FF

[formflier]

  then starts making it all about how upset I get and how I am constantly resisting falling in line.

Boundaries and control fall both ways... .

Do you have a "vision" of what he should be like?  How does it go when he doesn't "fall in line... "?

This is why RA (Radical Acceptance) is key. 

If... .IF!... .you are going to be in a r/s with a pwBPD... .accept them as they are NOW

If you don't like the way they are NOW... .there is some thinking to be done about your goals in the r/s... .

FF

[Daniell85]

I am accepting what he is now. And no I don't like how he is being at all. Is that actually NOT accepting how he is? 

I keep going back and reminding myself what it was that I love. I was reading some old emails from the beginning of our relationship. It was bittersweet.

In practice, probably it doesn't matter why he is being the way he is. At the same time, I think his control thing has it's roots ( like so many of us have ours) in FOO. They have been so manipulative and controlling. Demanding, shaming. That is just what I have seen since I have known him. I think he is rebelling. Against everyone. He has told me he has felt so stitched up that his life is being stolen from him.

Maybe getting that detachment from people who are doing that to him will be healthy in the long run if he can find some balance. I don't know. It was never my intention to be one of those people. Clearly that is how he is seeing me, though.

I do have a vision of what he "should" be like. Sure, I understand I am putting my expectations out there, too. I mainly wanted him to be who I thought he was. What I am banging up against are the issues about poor boundries with other women. He is lovely until I get upset about those things.

He and I talked a couple of times in the last few months. Kindly. I don't actually want to end the relationship, but it's been so hard, us hurting each other. I told him it was ok for us to lay it down with... compassion, I guess. We tried, we still care, but I can't do what he wants, and he can't, or doesn't want to do I what I need. And that is ok.  He comes back at me immediately with, he knows what I need and he can do it, it's just he is not understanding/in agreement with me for why I need him to do it the way I need it. That is, the restriction on him about women.( overnights at ex, lunch with affair girl, one on one time spent together)

Sadly he does play the "I am not in the pool game" while both legs are stuck up to his knees in the water. We get caught up in that constantly. How far in is "in the pool?" To me, skirting the pool, a toe in the pool is IN the darn pool. Stop playing games! THIS is the exact point of contention between us. Endless discord over it. Ugh. I am upset just thinking about it.

There were a lot of unspoken assumptions I had going into the relationship. I was married before. We had problems, got a divorce. It was ugly. I thought that was bad. I never had these kinds of problems in any relationship before. I am clear on other boundries, but the pool game has driven me into a full bloom PTSD.

It may be that I just am not ever going to be equipped to have a relationship with a loose cannon 

Ok, "people who effect me so badly"... .that I have panic attacks. That is the broad boundry. An umbrella boundry. And a really difficult one, since atm, the panic attacks have migrated to other issues. Mainly situations where I feel a lot of stimulation coming in at me... heavy traffic, shopping in busy stores. People who are being negative and talking at me too fast.

My boundries have really been eroded. A lot of times I start thinking about what my values are and I realize I am thinking, I don't have a right to that! Or "but what if"... .or "I should be more compassionate and understanding".

My therapist is back on track, we have a meeting on Wednesday, so I will bring this up with her. That last visit was about how I have become a recluse due to these events in my life. Hiding away, agoraphobic, panic stricken. The homework was to get back out into the world in some way. A trip to the library. A thing I enjoy recreationally.

I am sad to see that this relationship has driven me so inward that I have lost contact with a lot of the outside world, the things I love, social interactions. With that a loss of perspective. I see it. It's like coming out of a tornado shelter and seeing the town leveled. Which is actually an experience I have had. Very stunning.

[formflier]

I am sad to see that this relationship has driven me so inward 

Remember... .YOU keep the power... .

If you hand responsibility and power to the r/s for your life... .that usually doesn't lead to a good place...


FF

[Daniell85]

The power I see is not to participate with him in a way that is self destructive.  I am ok with that. It's going to be a while before I am willing to talk to him about anything. A while for me is months. More than a couple of months, less than a year.

I don't know  

[formflier]

 I was more making a point that you said the r/s was responsible for you becoming a hermit... .

I don't want to discount the influence of external events... .or events that you participate in... .

But... .big pictures stuff... .YOU stay responsible for your actions and decisions... .

Much better that way... . 

This is the kinda thing to discuss with your T... .and work it into your plan of things to discuss and work on.

FF

[Daniell85]

The relationship... .it's like this... I am so depleted from the relationship and sad and angry, that I have withdrawn.

I'm here, and I am understanding that if I had boundries all along that were meant to protect myself, I would not have continued to expose myself to damaging situations.

I am at the end result of that... co dependence... fear?

Now I understand better, though I haven't worked out exactly how to handle the boundries, yet. I have been given a lot of material to think on and figure out how I feel. I can see what my life is today as a result of poor boundries.

When I was growing up, we lived in a huge Victorian farm house. There were 7 bedrooms in it and by the time I was about 14, the older kids had moved out and all that was left was myself and my younger half brother, who was 7. We ended up with a number of spare bedrooms. My step dad used to punish me ( for silly things like reading a lot) by forcing me to rotate between the extra bedrooms upstairs. I was constantly being "inspected" in my personal space. Literally he would come in and search my bedroom top to bottom, randomly, looking for offenses. A candy wrapper, a book not a school book. Or "something you stole". Random things.

Point is, I eventually accepted the intrusion as a part of my life. So we hit the boundries thing, and it's a can of worms for me.

The best I can see myself doing right now is staying disengaged from boyfriend until I sort these things out. I realize maybe this looks sad to be so lacking in this kind of psychological development. But I take this absolutely seriously. This issue is bigger to me than whether I am having a bad relationship with a certain person. For me, the bad relationship is a signpost. Red flag?

I don't know. I feel kind of overwhelmed today. I am glad people are here to try and direct my attention. It means a lot to me. A chance to try and right some things for my life over all. I am really grateful  

[formflier]

I don't know. I feel kind of overwhelmed today. I am glad people are here to try and direct my attention. It means a lot to me. A chance to try and right some things for my life over all. I am really grateful  

   

Listen... .file some of our comments away... for discussion with your T.

"Hey T... .I think my r/s was responsible for me withdrawing... .can we work through what my choices were... .what I have power over... .?"

Something like that... .

Hey... .do you like to take walks... .and enjoy the fresh air... .

I'm heading off to the park with D5!   

FF

[Daniell85]

I do like walks Every day I take my mom's yorkie out. Bella. She is a miniature type. Somehow the cat two blocks down is always shocked by us, It's eyes bug out every time we go by.

Have fun!

[formflier]

 

We did... .there was another kid (4 year old) at the park... .they had a ball playing together.

Now... .relaxing on front porch... waiting for the rain to come... .

FF

[waverider]

I think it is good that you are looking at your origins for having a lack of boundaries. Until you address this you are likely to be vulnerable to being walked on like this repeatedly over your life.

"Hands off this is mine and I have a right to choose it" is a good mantra to teach yourself. whereby "mine" can represent a thought/emotion/decison/value.

We have a yorkie/jack russell cross that is an attention junkie ball of fluff on speed