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Author Topic: "I'm not doing this to hurt you, why are you upset?" Help me work through this  (Read 1102 times)
Daniell85
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« on: August 15, 2015, 09:50:49 AM »

I learned a number of things from my boyfriend in the past couple of weeks about how he is thinking.

1. He gives me silent treatment because he is angry. Not because he is one of those people trying to calm themselves. He is retaliating against me for showing upset or panic attacks.

2. He is deliberately withholding behavior on his part to heal the relationship and restore trust because he is angry at me for being upset or having panic attacks when he lies/interacts with other women/various shady behaviors.

3. And maybe the crux of it all, is this: he says he is not trying to hurt me, so he doesn't understand why I am so upset/sad/angry/have massive panic attacks over what he is doing. It's NOT his fault I feel upset, so why is he having to put up with my "substandard" behavior where I confront him and he "is not doing anything wrong."


Ok. Number three. I have heard this over and over again. Over the long term. He said to me the other day that he doesn't understand why I need him to rebuild trust with me in the way that I need it. The basic idea he is promoting is that he is trustworthy, so my continued "raging" at his innocent behaviors is upsetting him so much, he cannot bring himself to speak to me or do what I am asking him to do, specifically:

Stop one on one time with the affair girl or any other woman.

Offer calm reassurance when I express anxiety instead of retaliating with hateful youtube videos or nasty comments about how crap I am.

According to him he is not looking to be involved with other women. So as a trustworthy person, he is angered and insulted that I am getting upset. To remind readers, he had an affair, continues contact with the lady, lied to me a few days ago, gaslit me, then acted punitively on the idea the lie was true. When caught out, all he wanted to talk about was how much trouble I cause by getting upset at all of the above. He flat out told me he didn't want to talk about the lie, the gaslighting, OR how he was smacking me for being upset about what he just did.

Ok, to clarify what he is telling me: he told me this week that he does not want to hurt me. His motivation for anything has nothing at all to do with wanting to hurt me. He has told me in the past, after his affair and such that he did not do it to hurt me, so why I am I blaming him for hurting me

I have said to him, "but you knew it would hurt me."

He replies it's not his fault that I am hurt. I am getting hurt on my own. I am getting hurt all by myself due to my own feelings. So it is not his fault. Now, he wants to know, why should HE have to deal with me as an person who is upset and angry at him? Why should HE have to stop playing one on one Frisbee with some woman, when he intends nothing but to enjoy himself playing the game. He isn't doing it to hurt me, and he is TIRED of me getting upset with him when he isn't doing anything wrong.

The gist is since he is not trying to hurt me, I have no right to be upset. So he is now MAD at me for "attacking" him for "no reason" and is too upset to talk to me. If only I would "just stop making the same mistake over and over again", he would be able to take action to restore trust with me, and we could be together and happy.

I need some help here. I told him I would give him a thoughtful response. He appears to entirely lack empathy and common sense.

Help me work through this, because I think his thought process on this is key to why we are unable to sort things out.
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sweetheart
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2015, 10:21:54 AM »

Ok Daniell85,

I hear what your saying and I want to cut to the chase... .

What do you want to do if your bf continues to do what he's doing?

I also want to add that I don't think his thought processes are key here, for me yours are.

Again for me a thoughtful response is no longer necessary, you've have already given him that.

What I believe will be important for you now is to think about boundary enforcement and what that might look like for you.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2015, 10:59:02 AM »

Ok, the thing he did the other day... .I told him to stop or I would end our relationship. I would kick him from Skype, block him, and we would not be talking again.

I mean it. This issue is one he has toyed with me over for 3 years. I never told him before I would end the relationship and cut him off permanently. I will do exactly that. I don't like the arguing and I don't like what I feel are games he is playing.

What it looks like over that issue, is my boundry being crossed will end up with me ending the relationship. So far he has not crossed the boundry where I can see it. If I find out later that he has done so, I will end the relationship.

Maybe it sounds extreme. I can deal with the silent treatment now that I understand he is mad and trying to hurt me. I am not all churned up over it now.

Do you think he really doesn't connect his hurtful behaviors with actually hurting me? He is just pleasing himself. That is his reasoning. He is just making himself happy. Not intending to hurt me. And all my problem if I am hurt.

To me that is nonsense.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2015, 06:13:23 PM »

I told him to stop or I would end our relationship. I would kick him from Skype, block him, and we would not be talking again.


You have set a boundary, so you need to be sure to enforce it if he does not stop. Stating an ultimatum is fine, so long as it is one you can uphold. If not, then he will learn that what you say means nothing. Also, since people tend to test boundaries, you can be prepared for your boundary to be tested and to follow through with it.

Also, boundaries do not need to be spoken, they are actually a part of you. If you do not wish to continue a relationship with someone who you feel is behaving disrespectfully to you, then that is your boundary. A boundary is not something you put on a person. So, if your boundary is to not continue to be in a relationship with someone whose behavior you are not comfortable with then you can discontinue the relationship without any explanation.

For those of us who choose to stay in a relationship, we can have boundaries around the behavior. I do not like the ST. What made the ST so effective on me was that I made it about me, took it personally, was hurt, tried to control it " oh please, say something to me honey" or told him it bothered me. Once I stopped responding to it, it didn't work anymore and it diminished. It was not about the other person. I can't control it. I ignore the ST and do something else. If the conversation gets mean or critical, I stop talking. No explanation, just stop. It takes two to get into these things and if I don't participate it doesn't work.

Actually, your bf is probably not trying to hurt you to be mean. If you consider the victim triangle, the perspective of victim isn't usually on the other person. The "victim" can lash out at who he or she sees as the "persecutor" at the moment. When in victim mode, a person is more concerned about their own feelings than the feelings of the person he or she feels is the persecutor. Read about the victim triangle to get more of an explanation.

You can't control your BF, only your reaction to his behavior. Nobody likes to be treated poorly. He isn't responding to what you say about being hurt. If it hurts you, you can decide your own boundaries. As Sweetheart says-it's about what you think and do.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2015, 12:34:51 AM »

I'm feeling very little patience with his shady behaviors. A lot of my panic issues have been caused by me putting myself in a situation with him in order to try to extend trust... which he openly tears down.

I don't trust him. Simple. After the other day, I figured putting myself in that position of vulnerability is not possible for me, now. His complaint is I am getting upset. Of course I am. I can stop a lot of it by avoiding him for now.

In the last month, its gotten pretty intense. There are two women who have been contacting me to gloat in my face about him hating me. I don't like that.

Sure, it probably comes across as an ultimatum. I am fully willing to back it up. I don't feel afraid to lose him anymore.

I'm feeling a lot of anger about what i have gone through with him. Infidelity is obviously destructive to a relationship. I dont feel tolarant to him explaining his responsibility for the damage he has caused away with since he didnt do it to hurt me, if i am hurt, its all my fault and he abuses me for showing the upset or wanting him to at least stop making it worse.

At some point, hes going to understand that i dont have to talk to him either.



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waverider
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2015, 01:47:02 AM »

If you are upset at something he has done=criticism of his behavior=attack on him=retaliation required as this is the go to defense.

In his mind he is not attacking or retaliating he is defending himself against your criticisms. He can't change the initial behavior that sparked it as that is who he is, so he blocks it as part of the equation. To him that is akin to criticizing him for having curly hair.

I see this mechanism all the time. Rather than addressing the initial issues that caused the problems more denials and projections are piled on to bury it.

Ownership is lacking, no one wants to own a problem they believe they can't change
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Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2015, 04:06:25 AM »

At some point, hes going to understand that i dont have to talk to him either.

Of course, any relationship involves two people, and the feelings/understanding of two people, but for the sake of being effective, the focus has to be on you.

In actuality, his understanding anything is not in your control. All you can control is your reaction to his behavior. One way to re- frame this is that you don't have to talk to him. This is only effective if you decide that this is what you want to do. Not talking to him in order to have of a result on his understanding isn't necessarily going to work or not, and if is isn't something you wish to do for you, then you aren't acting in your best interest.

Yes, this is the staying board, but the risk of acting according to our own boundaries is that the other person doesn't like it- and then is faced with their own choices- to stay and possibly change, or leave. This doesn't mean we threaten the idea- take it or leave it. It means we begin to act in ways that are true to ourselves and if the other person is not comfortable- it is their decision to deal with this behavior. This doesn't mean we are being cruel or inconsiderate, we should not be cruel to others,  but consider that if we allow ourselves to be treated poorly- for the sake of their feelings, we are being cruel to ourselves.


In actuality, we already act on our  boundaries every day with people.  :)o you lock your car or front door? Does someone who might want to break into your car like it? Probably not, but do you even care if she or he does? Probably not- because it is your car and you protect your car. Do you explain with a sign " Hi, I lock my car because I don't want you to break in"  No, car is locked, and that is that.

Boundaries are similar in a way. Don't like talking to these women who gloat in your face? Don't interact with them. Don't like the shady behavior- you can decide your reaction to it. However, it isn't possible to control anyone else's behavior or their understanding.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2015, 04:51:20 AM »

WW is spot on. I has been interesting to see the "other side" of being treated poorly.  From my perspective, I thought my mother ( with severe BPD) treated my father poorly. Yet, listening to her, she was his victim. Even things he did that had nothing to do with her were perceived as " He did this to ME".  Even a slight or perceived criticism will trigger my mother into an altered state.

I considered this perspective in my relationship with my H who I feel has some similar personality traits, and I realized what WW is saying about bringing up behaviors being seen as criticisms- and criticisms are perceived as vicious attacks. In this context, these perceived attacks can result in a self defense reaction that can be more intense than the remark that we say- they think we are destroying them- in that moment. I tend to be a "get it out in the open" person. Early in my marriage, I might say that something my H did bothered me ,thinking that if someone said it to me, I would say " sorry, I didn't mean this to bother you" and try to work it out. However, these comments resulted in some retaliatory behavior that was very hurtful. The ST was a favorite and it used to hurt like h*ll.

Listening to my H, he perceived he was being attacked. He used words like " you're hammering me" "beating me with this" and described me as some kind of ogre. He denied that he was treating me poorly, as he believed it was justified. The smallest thing could set him off. This is how I began to walk on eggshells with him. However, this was a pattern I had to break.

Words didn't work well with him, but boundaries do. However, infidelity is a strong boundary that we both have and it would probably be a deal breaker for us if it happened ( I did have some concerns about that possibility on his part a long time ago, but I don't at the moment). We all set our boundaries somewhere. However, I did allow him to treat me poorly for a long time. I had to stop treating myself poorly by being overly concerned about rocking the boat. It was a risk.




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Daniell85
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2015, 07:44:09 AM »

Well how am to handle any of this effectively if I don't address a core issue in the relationship. Cheating destroys everything about a relationship. Trust, intimacy.

He is ok with what he is doing. He wants to do it and have the relationship with me, where I am calm and happy, and he gets trust and intimacy. I can't do it. The panic attacks with him are a result of trying to do it.

He did stop the behavior of the one on one with that girl. I think he feels ok about it because as it turns out he took himself in a different direction and violated other agreements. I hadn't actually made as stiff a boundry on it. My boundry was, I cannot be close to someone who does those things. And he knows all about that one because the whole last year he was hearing it and I would remove myself from interacting with him for a few days and he would stop the behavior.

Now he is back at it. He is constantly at something. I feel hurt and angry. I asked him for 3 things in order to recover with him. He will go along ok for a while and I will think things are ok. Then boom out of the blue he does them again. They all involve shady behavior with other women.

I have 3 choices. Act like it's all ok ( it's NOT), try to remind him ( he knows), or keep going about my business and make myself absent. ( doubt he cares).

I understand Waverider, his thought processes. I simply don't know how to work with that. I already tried. Nothing I do is effective. Nothing at all.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2015, 08:05:17 AM »

Also, Notwendy,  I blocked the ladies.

I hear what is being said about boundries. The only boundry I have that doesn't involve getting sucked into an upset and futile efforts that mess my life up is for me to shrug and go do other things. Problem is I have done that over and over and when we start interacting again, it's a simple matter of time before he violates one of those three boundries.

I don't think what I am doing is really having any effect if he sets us back to square one every month or so. Don't really know what to do. Except leave.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2015, 08:08:41 AM »

Don't really know what to do. Except leave.

The choice is yours and has always been
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Daniell85
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2015, 08:13:45 AM »

I know. I wanted to see if I changed, maybe he would, too.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2015, 08:18:11 AM »

You can only do so much, and then, his behavior is out of control.

When someone crosses your boundary, you have choices of things to try.

1) discuss how this bothers you, and see if the other person will respond by respecting your boundary.

2) address the core issue with your partner. In a relationship, you can hope that the other person is invested enough to listen, but then he or she has the choice of what to do with your request.

I think you have done #1 and #2

3) If the person continues to violate your boundaries, continue the behavior that bothers you, then you have a choice to continue the relationship and accept the behavior, or terminate it.

You can not make or influence another human being to do what you think or wish he or she would do. The other person has to choose to respond to your request in a way you want them to, but there is always the other choice.

I know this is the staying board, but you have the right to determine your deal breakers, the conditions on which you consider most important in a relationship. If fidelity is one and he is not faithful- you can not make him not cheat if he wants to.

Couples have overcome infidelity, however, from what I have seen of people who have done this, the person who cheated is sorry and wants to work at healing the relationship. The person cheated on is also invested in the relationship, and wants to see if it is possible to heal. The couples I know have been willing to go to MT. This is just limited to couples I know, but I believe that overcoming this takes work on both people in some way.

The decision of what to do about your boyfriend's behavior lies with you, and while it may not be a choice you want to make, he is who he is. Perhaps other posters can make other suggestions.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2015, 08:41:19 AM »

Ok, this is what he is saying about the cheating. He did do it. He said it was stupid of him.

Ok. What he wants is to proceed on the basis that he learned his lesson and is now trustworthy.

So if he wants to hang out with some chick alone practicing his game, it's ok because he is only practicing.

If he wants to have dinner with affair chick while they work together a couple times a month, then why is Danielle upset? He is not doing anything wrong. He is eating with a person he is working with. He is not interested in any sex, emotional connection, or a relationship with her.

If he wants to do anything else that involves other women, his intentions are above board. So why is Danielle upset?

Danielle is upset and afraid because this is how the affair began. Danielle is upset because two women are taking aim at her and she is getting ugly stuff at her.

I am not convinced it is sensible to trust someone who already did those things and gets mad at ME for being upset at the nasties coming at me from women who have an agenda with him. Women he has already crossed boundries with.

I can tell who his real women friends are. They are nice to me.

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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2015, 09:16:03 AM »

The boundary for "cheating" can be blurry ( Think Bill Clinton- "I did not have sex with that woman" ... .well, depends on how you define sex).

Does sex start with an intimate conversation, a kiss, making out, or the actual  this is how you make a baby act? If it is what one does to make a baby, then indeed, Mr. Clinton did not have sex.

You are dealing with an important issue, because that line can be different for different people. A poster once mentioned that Billy Graham is never alone with a woman. An orthodox Jewish man won't be in a room alone with or shake hands with a woman. Neither of these two situations is cheating or sex, but they draw their line much father away from that.

My H had a coworker who I knew had a huge crush on him and made it known she was available to him. I was upset about him spending a lot of time with her. As far as he was concerned, as long as he didn't do anything wrong, my being upset was my problem. I had to decide to trust him or not.

My H has been over the top jealous of situations where absolutely nothing has gone on- large groups with spouses and kids in attendance, and some of the males are old friends of mine. 

I think he flew "closer to the flame" than I have, but our tolerance of other people's behavior is different. However, we are married, and my H did consider that he was risking his marriage with co-worker and established distance with her. I had no control over this though, he had to decide.  My other choice was to leave the relationship, but I didn't have grounds to do that.

I also chose to go to my school reunion even if my H was upset about it.

Bottom line- he has no control over me, and I have no control over him. Our "do not cheat" boundaries are our own.

Same with you and bf. If he thinks it is Ok to go to dinner with that woman, you can choose to trust him, or not.




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Daniell85
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2015, 09:26:44 AM »

There is no reason to trust him.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2015, 09:27:42 AM »

I just kicked him from Skype. I am done. He spent the night at an ex's house.

They are JUST FRIENDS.

I don't care.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2015, 09:28:37 AM »

That was the 3rd agreement. And one of the women who has been taunting me.
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2015, 09:32:33 AM »

I think you have made your decision.

To reframe this and make it about you:

I, Danielle, am worthy of a relationship that includes mutual trust and respect. Sexual fidelity is a strong value to me in a relationship. Because of my VALUES ( values=boundaries), I will only be intimate and in a relationship where my values are upheld and respected. I will also behave in accordance with my values as well.

If I find myself in a relationship where I do not feel my values are respected, then I will not continue to be in it.

This is about you, not him, and if you maintain boundaries and love yourself enough to not compromise what you truly feel in your heart, then only men who respect them will get past them. When we have poor boundaries, ( either too weak or too strong) we attract people who respond to those boundaries.

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Daniell85
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2015, 09:42:09 AM »

I am worn out.
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2015, 09:42:41 AM »

You need to decide whether you are willing to expose yourself to living with someone you don't trust at all. You have to demonstrate that you are willing to make that choice. He then gets the option to do something about it. If he does nothing then you make your choice.

He is what he is, he also has the freedom to behave like this as no one has the power to stop him, except for himself.

As long as he can negotiate for a slice of the pie he will. pwBPD are experts at brinkmanship. Brinkmanship can't be overridden unless you are willing to go over the brink

It is about making hard choices and not feeling like you are being forced to do anything.

When you make it about you rather than him, then there is no debate about technicalities, the defining line is how his behavior is affecting you
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Daniell85
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2015, 09:53:14 AM »

His behavior ... .ok, let's put all on me ( and I am ok with that) is so effecting me when I try to be there with him,  that I have not been able to live even close to normally for over 2 years.

I don't like brinksmanship.

I could handle the other aspects of BPD, but the cheating just kills it for me. Simply, my heart isn't in it and I can't make it be.
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2015, 10:49:35 AM »

Hi Daniell,

I read the question that your bf asks you.  It sounded familiar to me, so I was following along.  

Just know that I am divorced, so take what you can and leave the rest.

My ex had explained why he felt that way.  It slipped out during one of our visits to his psychologist.  The psychologist asked him, ":)o you listen to your wife when she says that she is upset"?  He responded "no, he doesn't, because it just makes him mad when I am upset, so he stops listening, and attacks, because he feels that I am "making him into a monster".  

It was then that I realized, that no matter how I try to say something, nothing will work, because he will feel attacked, and he will attack back, and he would be blaming me for making him feel bad about himself.  

Another thing that he had told me, this was in private though, that when he gets angry, he is at war, and I am the enemy, and he will do and say whatever he can to destroy the enemy.  What I also felt at that time was that once he took me down, he felt good about himself, didn't matter how I felt, he had released all of his anger, and now he wanted to have sex with me because he now felt good about himself.  

Took me a long time to comprehend this, but when I look back, it was true, I actually thought at the time that he was making this stuff up to push my buttons.  

So, if you can look back on your fights, can you see that whenever you might have been upset, that it just made him "mad"?

I am not telling you what to do, was just trying to give you an explanation, hopefully, so that you feel less crazy.

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Daniell85
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2015, 11:31:13 AM »

thanks for chiming in.

Any thing I say, no matter how politely stated, "makes" him angry. I already heard this from him. You are right, he feels he is being attacked and all else flies out of his head except to retaliate.

I am pretty angry atm. He made contact and warned me about my crappy behavior. He doesn't WANT to end things. He just wants me to stop being so reactive to his innocent behavior.

I am so ANGRY.
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2015, 11:46:52 AM »

thanks for chiming in.

Any thing I say, no matter how politely stated, "makes" him angry. I already heard this from him. You are right, he feels he is being attacked and all else flies out of his head except to retaliate.

I am pretty angry atm. He made contact and warned me about my crappy behavior. He doesn't WANT to end things. He just wants me to stop being so reactive to his innocent behavior.

I am so ANGRY.

You two are probably not going to see eye to eye on this at a values level.  He isn't going to persuade you it's innocent and you aren't going to persuade him that it's crappy, insensitive or anti-relationship.

But if he doesn't want your relationship to end, he may make concessions to avoid that outcome.  He won't do that unless he's sure he needs to.

Can you be less angry and more resolved that you won't go on on these terms?  Then you can let his desire not to end the r/ship with you carry some of the load of resolving this.  Right now, you ARE staying in, on his terms.  So of course he's going to try to keep that going.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2015, 12:00:35 PM »

I have read a lot of your story, Patient. I've been left absolutely baffled how you have maintained your calm so well.

He pretends to give concessions. Then he sucker punches me. I get upset, panic, angry, and then he retaliates.

He uses the ex as a stop off on a long drive. As he is on vacation, he went on a short trip and he feels why should he pay for a hotel if he can crash at her place?

It's not HIS fault she decides to take a picture of him in bed, send it to me via text from his cell phone, and gloat.  HE didn't do anything wrong.

It begs the question. I had blocked her, but I didn't block him.

BTW, he is staying for lunch and will be back to his place late this evening.

I'm shaking. I don't know how some of you keep on.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2015, 12:18:25 PM »

Sorry, I missed the significance of what you said.

I can step away from him, leave status quo. He is off Skype.

It will take me a couple of weeks to calm down, but I have to avoid contact with him to get there.

So yes. I can.
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patientandclear
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2015, 01:00:39 PM »

Sorry, I missed the significance of what you said.

I can step away from him, leave status quo. He is off Skype.

It will take me a couple of weeks to calm down, but I have to avoid contact with him to get there.

So yes. I can.

What your guy is doing is not something I could or would put up with in a relationship.  That sort of thing caused me to take a big step back in my intimate connection with my ex, a step back we have still not repaired 20 months later.  So please don't think your reaction is out of proportion or over-sensitive.

If there are consequences to what he did, he may decide it's in his own self interest not to engage in this type on behavior any more.  But there do have to be consequences for him to engage in that sort of thinking.

He also might decide that crashing with exes on trips is more important to him that your r/ship.  He does get to make that choice.  But right now, he hasn't had to make it because he can have both.

I'm sorry you're so frayed.  I sure would be too.  My "calm" as you put it is the result of four years of taking myself out of situations with my BPD guy that hurt me.  I do not stick around for them.  (Sometimes I question whether I've been too fast to do it, but yeah, I'm the boundary girl, for sure.  It helps a ton with anxiety.)  My guy comes back around with some reason why I should think of it differently, I do, I get confused, hurt ... .that's my own struggle.  But participating when the terms are violating your own values and your sense of honor toward yourself -- that's not good for you.   
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Notwendy
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2015, 01:55:43 PM »

Have you ever seen small children during a pool break, or heard the parent say " you can't get into the pool until 30 minutes after you eat?" Right in front of their parents, these kids are going to go right up to the edge of the pool, hang their little toes off the edge or poke their toes in and just see what the parent will do. The parents usually say " I told you not to get into the pool" the child will grin and say " but I'm not in the pool" . Eventually, one might accidentally fall in, and then will face the wrath of an irate parent.

Kids test boundaries, it is what they do. As parents, we need to protect them, but not so much that they don't face the natural consequences of breaking them. That is how they learn. So for instance, you would not let a child do something dangerous, heaven forbid, but if your child always forgets a jacket on the way to school, and you always bring it to him, he may never learn that he is going to get cold without it. However, if you let him forget it, and experience being cold, he is likely to remember his jacket.

That is also how adults learn. Pw PBD also tend to test boundaries. However, they too need to learn that - if they cheat on their partner, then that can cost them the relationship. If they yell at their boss, then they can lose their job.  If they don't go to work because they didn't feel like it, and their partner calls the boss and says " my partner is sick today" then that partner is enabling the dysfunction.

A partner who doesn't let the natural consequences of their behavior occur is robbing them of the learning experience. If your partner cheats and you hang in there, then you teach him it is OK. If he calls the shots while you get upset, then he learns he can call the shots. If you enforce your boundary, then he is left to deal with that circumstance. Now you have given him the chance to do so, but still, you have the choice of what you can do regardless.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2015, 04:23:57 PM »

He keeps coming back around, assuring me he can do what is needed to restore trust. But. He doesn't understand why I need it the way I do.

I understand he is saying he doesn't understand why I need him to stop one on one time spent with other ladies. Why I need him to stop overnights at the ex's. Why I need him to stop lunches with the affair girl at work.

He literally is saying to me that he does not understand why HE should be inconvenienced on these actions so that I can recover trust I am expected to explain to him why these things destroy trust? really?

Does it even matter why I need it? Isn't it enough for him to know what it is that restores trust for me without debating me on it?

And you guys are saying, when he crosses those boundries... end the relationship? I can do that. I guess I have this terrible image in my mind of how that looks... over and over and over. Scary.

Patient, do you ever date between times of trying to sort it out with your BPD guy? I'm not saying I am desperate to date. In fact, I feel so depleted, I feel awful at the thought of it.
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