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Author Topic: Do we ever get to really be together?  (Read 424 times)
thisagain
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« on: August 17, 2015, 03:38:57 PM »

This is mostly a rewording of my post in a different thread... .hoping to start some discussion on this new topic. 

It seems like a lot of the strategies here boil down to getting away from or spending less time with your SO. If they're raging at you or otherwise crossing a boundary, leave the room. If they're dysregulated and you're tired of trying to validate a constant stream of drama, leave the room. If it's really intolerable, move out.

I understand that leaving the room is better than letting myself be verbally abused or a dumping ground for all her bad feelings about everything. And I'm proud of the progress I've made on doing my own thing and not relying on my partner to be there for me. But I feel like it hits a point where I might as well just be single.

Are there other ways to reduce the emotional drain of living with a pwBPD that don't involve just being together less and doing my own thing more?
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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 03:40:36 PM »

A little backstory for those interested... .

My partner and I are moving to different places later this month. We'll be about an hour and a half apart. Friends and acquaintances who don't know about the BPD are all like "oh it's going to be so hard for you, you'll miss her so much!" ... .But I'm mostly feeling really relieved to get away from the almost daily dysregulating, and excited to arrange my life exactly how I want it. And I don't think that's really a good sign for the relationship. She's been doing relatively well lately (no rage, much less frequent silent treatment) and I'm still excited to get away.

Eventually I want to share my life with a partner in the same home. Also, it might sound trivial, but I'm disabled, I like curling up in my couch or my bed, and I don't like the idea of having to get up and move to someplace less comfortable because the couch has been occupied by my partner with a bunch of drama. I guess the next time we move in together I should make myself a comfy little corner that can be my refuge?

I know that if I want to stay in the relationship, I have to accept my partner the way she is now. Sometimes I start thinking that living apart or taking lots of time-outs is just a temporary damage control measure until she gets better at regulating her emotions. But I know I can't count on her getting better. Are there other long-term solutions?
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 04:36:51 PM »

But I know I can't count on her getting better. Are there other long-term solutions?

I feel like you are where I was just a couple of weeks ago. It seems like you know some of what will be required of you, but aren't excited about that. I can relate completely.

I feel like up until very recently, I kept on looking for the silver bullet to fix all the problems and make everything all better... .but it doesn't usually work that way and it isn't working that way for me.

I have learned a lot about her illness, her issues, and even my own issues. Learning about my own issues has helped to change me in a significant way. It has helped me to realize that, while she may be the one with diagnosis, I certainly did things that wouldn't be okay to do towards any spouse, let alone one with BPD.

I have worked on myself an incredible amount. I have been in therapy. I have been reading books and spending time on here. I have gotten a lot better about staying centered and not reacting. I have gotten a lot better about forgiving and not taking things personally. I have gotten better at listening and validating.

As I have improved myself in all of these ways, talking to and being around my wife have both completely changed. We have been separated for 2.5 months now. For the first month, she wouldn't stop yelling, she wouldn't answer her phone, she wouldn't respond to texts, and she wouldn't listen to anything I said.

Through all of that, I started working on myself and applying what I had learned. A month in to our separation, the yelling and anger stopped. She has still gotten agitated a few times, but I just get quiet and say, "That wasn't very nice." and she immediately stops being angry and apologizes.

We have been spending more time together. EDIT: The amount of time that she spends with me has steadily increased over the last six weeks. A couple weekends ago, we spent an entire day together, the first time we had done that in two months. Last night we spent a good bit of time together and even had some great sex for the first time in 3 months. Today she agreed to go to marriage counseling with me.

This is a massive improvement from how our separation started... .but it didn't just happen. There was no silver bullet. I have been working on myself relentlessly over the last 6-7 weeks... .and it is just now starting to pay off in very noticeable ways.

If you choose to work on yourself to try and improve your relationship, I strongly suggest that you keep a journal. Because I have been keeping a journal, I have been able to see how my wife was making small incremental improvements regularly over the last 6 weeks. If I hadn't kept my journal, it would be very difficult to look at anything other than the fact that we still aren't back together yet.  

Thoughts?
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 05:42:07 PM »

Thanks so much for sharing your experience! The journal is a great idea.

I guess I don't see it as wanting a "silver bullet," so much as wanting to SOMEDAY have a relationship that's not primarily characterized by coping and damage control. I know there is a lot of room for improvement on my side of things, but I'm looking ahead at what most people here describe as the goal or success story, and I guess I'm not sure if I'd be happy with that.

I won't see it as a "success story" if five years from now I'm still spending most nights in a different room because my partner won't stop yelling at the TV or can't soothe herself when her stomach hurts. Or if she's jumping down my throat because I made the mistake of just saying how I felt like a normal human instead of using SET. Or if I regularly come home to find that she's painted me black and is yelling at me over nothing, and I just ignore it and go out to the yard to play with the dog. If I'm going to be spending most evenings alone with a dog and not caring if my partner is there for me, I feel like I might as well just be single.

At least for now, I'm not having much luck at de-escalating her emotional reactions by validating, so I either wear myself out trying to validate a constant stream of negativity or I have to leave the room. I can deal with that as a short-term damage control measure (while either or both of us learns how to better handle this kind of situation). But in the long run I want a partner who I don't have to avoid on a regular basis.

So I guess I'm wondering if it's realistic or possible to imagine a future with this person that doesn't involve so much detaching, leaving, doing my own thing, and caring less about whether she's around or what she thinks of me. And what I can do to accomplish that, since I know I can't just sit around hoping for her to get better.
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waverider
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2015, 06:37:24 PM »

Disengaging and removing yourself is a way of creating a breathing space to center yourself and allowing things to normalize, thereby preventing things from escalating.

Continued conflict and escalations reinforce feelings of being "attacked" by both parties. The consequence of this is you both become defense and prewired for conflict.

The more you can reduce conflict, the lower the state of defensiveness becomes. Eventually you will be able to get along better, the buffer between trigger and reaction will increase. So you will be able to spend more time together, and you will have more space to smooth issues out before they escalate.

My wife is just as BPD as ever, but there is barely any serious conflict and no escalations anymore. Sure there is the usual frustrations and angry moments, usually from me , but nothing that causes me to leave suddenly or can't nip in the bud.

Dysfunctional relationships can still be harmonious, it just takes a different approach to life's priorities. It does takes some time for the transition though.
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2015, 08:28:10 PM »

Thanks waverider! That's what I'm hoping for, to become more able to smooth out issues. It's just hard when there are several issues coming up every day. It feels like a minefield--maybe I'll avoid the first five mines but then the sixth will blow up on me. But I'm hopeful that the space and time with me acting differently can help calm everything down.

When you say your wife is just as BPD as ever, but there aren't escalations or many serious conflicts... .what is a typical manifestation of her being "as BPD as ever" and how do you handle it? I can tell you're very skilled at defusing conflicts, but do you ever just get tired of managing everything so carefully?
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2015, 11:00:42 PM »

It was great to "catch up" and see your newest updates and feelings on your own situation!

I see that you're feeling ambivalent about the relationship and it's perpetual rockiness, but I see that you're uber-confident about your emotions and are being real about it, and that's all that matters, and is to be applauded. Obviously you love this woman a lot, as you're willing to try and make it work, but the questioning of whether or not being single would be just the better way to go is "being as real as it gets". I think that the advice that you received here is spot-on, though, by waverider, who seems to have had success with his situation, which is also to be applauded.

Are you all still going to the therapist?

By the way, remember when you shared with me the country song a while ago, for comedic relief? WELL, I heard a song today by The Staves called "Black & White" that I thought was awesome, and wanted to share it with you! The song is under 3 minutes long, but I think you'd appreciate it. Check it out!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbuD3drzodg
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 12:16:21 AM »

I do love her very much. That's what makes me want to be with her and spend my time with her, not spend my time in a different room or be happy we're moving to different places. And I'm young, not married, no kids, etc so I feel like I don't have to settle for damage control and peaceful coexistence. I just want to really be with her and be partners.

She is still in therapy, although not DBT and with a therapist who's not good at recognizing or handling BPD. She refuses to do couples' counseling because she thinks I have some disorder or deep issues that I'm in denial about (projection much?). Plus the last time we tried, it was a hot mess because she would dysregulate literally as soon as we entered the room. I did years of individual therapy for my own family issues and I'm happy with where I am in absolutely every other area of my life, so I'm not sure about continuing after we move.
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waverider
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 04:14:02 AM »

Thanks waverider! That's what I'm hoping for, to become more able to smooth out issues. It's just hard when there are several issues coming up every day. It feels like a minefield--maybe I'll avoid the first five mines but then the sixth will blow up on me. But I'm hopeful that the space and time with me acting differently can help calm everything down.

When you say your wife is just as BPD as ever, but there aren't escalations or many serious conflicts... .what is a typical manifestation of her being "as BPD as ever" and how do you handle it? I can tell you're very skilled at defusing conflicts, but do you ever just get tired of managing everything so carefully?

She functions purely on impulse, need and instant gratification and changes her mind and plans hourly, and hence achieves nothing. Plays the victim most of the time. Dysfunctional to the point of being unable to hold a job, both due to lack of performance and invariably falling out with who ever she spends extended time with. Abandonment issues are huge and would completely fall apart if she had to overnight without me.

As I have accepted her limitations and don't put expectations on her that are not going to happen I am never seen as the "enemy" any more. If she does start to get out of order with me she knows full well that I will go find something else to do, and hence she will go in abandonment mode. (ie she knows I stand by my boundaries).

I dont tiptoe around to keep the peace, if I am annoyed or simply cant be bothered "pandering" I wont. I have a right not to always have my carers hat on. As I am no longer afraid of conflict and am confident in my ability to diffuse/repair any fall out it means I am not afraid of triggering it.

The end result of this is the lack of escalations mean she does not feel threatened and so many of the things that would previously caused high conflict simply dont.

At the end of the day it is all about the way My personality has changed. It takes a long evolution to do this but it can be done. But when you have changed you can take your foot of the gas and screw up "best method' approaches sometimes.

As you will have to accept a lot you also need to find that something special in it for you. Your pay off if you like. Don't expect a fair down the middle split in everything, just make sure some areas you get more than your fair payback.

Main tip is to slow your responses down and don't be reactive in the moment. Less is more

Waverider
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 01:21:24 PM »

She functions purely on impulse, need and instant gratification and changes her mind and plans hourly, and hence achieves nothing. Plays the victim most of the time. Dysfunctional to the point of being unable to hold a job, both due to lack of performance and invariably falling out with who ever she spends extended time with. Abandonment issues are huge and would completely fall apart if she had to overnight without me.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience!

Doesn't the above just get exhausting? With my partner, almost every day she comes home telling me the story of who victimized her that day, the latest falling out with a coworker or family member, or whatever her latest impulsive life crisis is. I'm working on being less of a sponge, but for now it's really draining for me to be in such a negative environment. And her inner turmoil really limits her capacity to connect with me, hear about MY day, be intimate, etc.

The only "something special" I've found are the rare moments when she CAN connect and be there for me. My therapist told me it's like gambling--you put in all your money, and you get what you want just enough to keep you coming back for more.
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 02:30:03 PM »

Well, I can give you my POV.

Yes, you can make your life 90% better. You can have much less conflict in your life. You can have a peaceful home - almost all the time, and that has to do with YOUR action.

But personally, I still find my marriage a 1 way street. Which is not easy. In other words, I feel like I give-give-give and don't get much back in return.

It's like you are loving a little child. You know she isn't really capable of meeting your emotional needs, and well you are an adult anyways and she is not, so don't even expect it... .

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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2015, 03:00:03 PM »

Thanks Josh! The one-way street is exactly what I'm afraid of.

I'm hoping that she'll be able to be there for me more as I keep working on reducing the conflict, and I've seen glimpses of that lately. But I'm afraid I'll never be able to count on her to be there for me no matter what.
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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2015, 03:27:05 PM »

As you will have to accept a lot you also need to find that something special in it for you. Your pay off if you like. Don't expect a fair down the middle split in everything, just make sure some areas you get more than your fair payback.

Main tip is to slow your responses down and don't be reactive in the moment. Less is more

Waverider

this is where I am struggling in our marriage. I Have not done it yet but if I made a visual list of what I give and what my wife gives I am pretty sure I would be shocked. Your advice is always very insightful as is others but you seem to have things in a very great perspective. I am trying to find that something special.
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2015, 05:44:12 PM »

if I made a visual list of what I give and what my wife gives I am pretty sure I would be shocked.

Don't do it. A happy life is about perception not hard realities and tally sheets.

It is important to "take" (lead) rather than wait to be given (follow). If a pwBPD "offers" there is a good chance it is related to their own hidden need. When you work this out you feel manipulated and it feels tainted.

Need for reward/praise/approval is one of their biggest motivators for generosity. Hence they are more likely to offer grand gestures than quietly go about a chore without mentioning it to make your life easier. As a result you get "given'' things that you dont really need. So your needs are never really met, but you end up in her debt. On the other hand she will have no hesitation to state what she "needs" you to do.

This is the pattern that sets up the situation where her needs are being met but yours aren't, yet she can point to all the great things she does for you and you should be grateful... You end up feeling manipulated and resentful, you loose authority over your own needs

So if you "take" some of the things that are important to you, then this gives a better perceived quality of life, as a result you don't require as many needs to be met.
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2015, 11:04:50 PM »

What happens when you ask for what you need and she isn't capable of giving it to you? So you get rejected over and over, she gets triggered by you even mentioning it, or she rages at you and calls you selfish or worse for asking?

I'm thinking mostly of sex/intimacy here since that is what is most consistently lacking in my relationship, but I'd imagine it would apply to anything (help around the house, cooperation with the finances, etc). With the level of emotional immaturity you describe, I have trouble envisioning how she could contribute anything to the relationship.
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2015, 11:34:40 PM »

What happens when you ask for what you need and she isn't capable of giving it to you? So you get rejected over and over, she gets triggered by you even mentioning it, or she rages at you and calls you selfish or worse for asking?

Stop asking for what you think she is incapable of giving. It usually means finding new needs and interests which may be independent of her input. This is why it is about changing yourself as much as anyone.

I developed a new hobby/interest that is my thing alone


but I'd imagine it would apply to anything (help around the house, cooperation with the finances, etc).

I got around this one by not trying to force sharing responsibility on this one, as it wasn't going to happen. Instead i took full control. Now my needs re stable finances, healthy food etc puts me in a better place than arguing about spending or stocking up with fad foods.(ie my need is stability on these fronts)


It may seem like these are diverging rather than bonding, put the point is once you have your needs met you can have better bonding time on the other areas as you can pander all you want as you have had your part met and you can let the balance swing the other way without feeling resentful.

It takes a while for any new routine to become normal and accepted, but is far better than constantly trying to achieve the unachievable.
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2015, 09:51:23 PM »

Thanks for all your advice!

My takeaway lesson here is to work on reducing conflict as much as possible and focus on my own stuff for a while. Right now when I think about what I could get out of the relationship, it's a huge list of things she can't give me. But once I'm not so preoccupied by the conflict and what I'm missing, I hope it'll be easier to see how (or whether?) this relationship can be a source of good things. Does that make sense?

What do you do about the things that you can't get from anyone other than your partner? I can take care of all my non-relationship-related needs, but I really want to spend my time, go on fun adventures, and be (emotionally and physically) intimate specifically with her. Otherwise I'd just be single or be with someone else. Maybe after a while that will get easier for both of us, if I work on reducing conflict more? Because I'll be less scared of her, and she'll be feeling validated and less likely to paint me black?
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2015, 10:10:04 PM »

What do you do about the things that you can't get from anyone other than your partner? I can take care of all my non-relationship-related needs, but I really want to spend my time, go on fun adventures, and be (emotionally and physically) intimate specifically with her.

It is a disability, this could be the same as with someone with a physical disability. The difference is with a physical disability it is easier to rationalize and accept. There will be somethings that simply wont be possible. However, once you start to "declutter" the issues you will likely find some of the things that never seemed remotely possible are not in fact completely out of the question.

You also have to do a lot of work clarifying the distinction between your needs and wants/wishes. We are all guilty to some degree of claiming our wants are actually needs.
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2015, 06:05:06 PM »

However, once you start to "declutter" the issues you will likely find some of the things that never seemed remotely possible are not in fact completely out of the question.

That's what I'm hoping for! I see glimpses of that sometimes. Thanks again.

And thanks for pushing me to clarify wants versus needs. I know I don't NEED much from her, especially now that our lives are going to be more separated. But there are certain things that I think are requirements for me to stay in the relationship. Being her partner is a lot of effort and I want to be treated like her partner in return.
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2015, 06:28:49 PM »

I certainly can relate.

The way I understand it is this:  If you don't remove yourself from the conflict, the status quo will continue.  Removing yourself from the conflict changes the status quo, and your partner will either change and adapt or the r/s will fall apart.  I think it really takes us to get so sick and tired of the conflict that constantly removing ourselves is a better alternative than living in constant chaos. 

The past few months have been near constant chaos in my house, with me having to leave or sleep in another room several times per week.  I think my wife is starting to change the past few weeks.  She tends to not let conflict escalate as long, is less nitpicky, and stops herself sometimes before picking a fight.  I think part of it is a realization that she is slowly driving me away, and if she does that, she will have nobody.
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2015, 02:49:34 AM »

Better a series of strategic retreats than hanging there until it turns into a complete rout.
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