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Author Topic: I thought we were making progress, but she is still lying  (Read 411 times)
turbo squash
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« on: August 18, 2015, 02:17:40 PM »

What should I do?

Yesterday, my wife agreed to go to MC with me. Today I found out that she was lying about her affair partner being out of town all this week and all next week.

I am upset. I thought that things were improving. On the surface, they appeared to be... .but now I am starting to think that she is just hiding her communication to her affair partner and trying to act like she is coming back to me. I think that she may be trying to keep both of us. I AM NOT OKAY WITH THAT.

What should I do?

EDIT:

I have not said anything to her yet. She does not know that I know she lied about that. Our appointment for MC is in less than 24 hours.
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2015, 02:52:52 PM »

Sorry you found out that she is lying.  That is frustrating!  I would hold on to the information and bring it up in marriage counseling tomorrow.  Let her explain that one. 
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turbo squash
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2015, 04:25:01 PM »

Sorry you found out that she is lying.  That is frustrating!  I would hold on to the information and bring it up in marriage counseling tomorrow.  Let her explain that one. 

Would ambushing her with that in front of the counselor be productive though? I know that I could broach the subject in such a way that she would have to verify what she said and then I could counter with my information... .but would that help?

She really doesn't like appearing crazy and so I think that she wouldn't unleash in there, but I could see her freaking out about it afterwards.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2015, 04:36:03 PM »

The affair stuff. Been there. Still am. It's absolutely maddening, so I feel for you!

Let her say her lies in front of the therapist. Maybe ahead of time talk to therapist so they already know. I think after letting your wife know you caught her out lying, let the therapist do the confronting.

Also, if you don't have proof you can show, then you are going to get gaslit more.
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 04:54:10 PM »

 

IF... .and this is a big IF... .you are going to "confront" her about this... .

do it in MC.

Where someone is trained to guide this.   Don't give MC a heads up... or your wife... .just bring it up.

Now... .the way it gets brought up... .may matter.  We can discuss this here... .

Also... .and this is the bigger issue... .is that MC is not a courtroom... .

If you approach it like "court" where you are going to prove things... .your R/S is doomed.

However... .feeling like your partner is honest with you is a subject to discuss... .entirely appropriate.

Don't accuse... .ask for help understanding... .help clarifying... .

Might help to let us know what she said... .and how you found out that information is not correct...

FF
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turbo squash
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 05:11:22 PM »

If you approach it like "court" where you are going to prove things... .your R/S is doomed.

However... .feeling like your partner is honest with you is a subject to discuss... .entirely appropriate.

Don't accuse... .ask for help understanding... .help clarifying... .

Might help to let us know what she said... .and how you found out that information is not correct...

FF

You say if I approach it where I am going to prove things, it is doomed. My thought was that I would ask her to verify the lie that she told and then tell her about my new information. I thought about doing it this way so that she wouldn't have a chance to try and say that she didn't say that... .but I realize that that is proving.

She said that her affair partner/lover was going to be out of town all this week and next week. (They work together.) I thought that this would be a good jump start to try and start fixing our marriage and see what can be done. She said that she thought it was  a good opportunity as well.

Turns out that while he may be out of town all week next week, he is very much in the office all week this week. Her cousin works with her and told me that her lover was still in town this week.

Something worth mentioning is that this cousin has not seen lover talk to my wife thus far this week... .and he used to go over to talk to her all the time. Lover also hasn't talked to cousin this week even though the three of them used to go to lunch together frequently.

I could see her deciding to end her affair and stop communication with him... .but then lie to me about him being out of town to try and get me to hope and hold on. She knows that I don't trust her and I have told her that she was a liar. I could see her saying after this week, "I know that I can do it and that we can be together now because I went this whole week without talking to him at all... .you can even ask my cousin."

She has projected on to me that she is worried that I wouldn't be able to keep up the changes that I have told her I would make... .but I think that based on how long it has taken her to slow down/end (can't be sure which), she is actually worried about whether or not she has what it takes.

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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 05:25:33 PM »

 

If you are going to take that approach... .do it once... .but... .try to let her clarify things ahead of time.

Plans could have changed... .should she have let you know of the change... .sure... .

Or... .she could be totally pulling the wool over your eyes... .

This is why it is important to ask... let them talk... let them explain... .so you can understand.

Much different than an "accusation"

Listen... .if this is big deal to you... .bring it up.  Do not participate in drama... .it's just information... .

FF
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turbo squash
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 06:25:26 PM »

If you are going to take that approach... .do it once... .but... .try to let her clarify things ahead of time.

Plans could have changed... .should she have let you know of the change... .sure... .

Or... .she could be totally pulling the wool over your eyes... .

This is why it is important to ask... let them talk... let them explain... .so you can understand.

Much different than an "accusation"

Listen... .if this is big deal to you... .bring it up.  :)o not participate in drama... .it's just information... .

FF

You are right. It could be nothing or it could be something. It is just information.

Looking at my post from a few hours ago, I am reminded of how much anxiety I was feeling at the time. I calmed myself down though and I didn't confront her and try to get her to talk about it. I have a lot of work to do to get to the point to where I don't freak out and jump to conclusions like I have been. Granted, 99% of the time, I only freak out inside and she never knows how much I am freaking out. Still, it feels like it will take a lot of work to get to a place where I don't even freak out in my head.

How would you bring it up without making it sound like an accusation? One of the greatest difficulties of the relationship for me right now is the fact that I feel like I can rarely bring up things that are bothering me... .because the way I present it usually offends her even though I'm trying to present it in a non-confrontational way.
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 07:18:44 PM »

 

Others on here have heard it a lot from me... .

I'm a big fan of "help me understand... ."  it is softer...

If you can get rid of "why" out of your vocabulary... .that will do you well.

Why is for the courtroom... .


There are some on here that have tried "help me understand... " and it didn't work... .but it's worth a shot.

That's the thing with all the "rules" and "suggestions"... .try them... .give the a good shot... .but if they don't work in your r/s... keep trying something else that follows a very general guideline.

FF
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turbo squash
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 11:10:31 PM »

Others on here have heard it a lot from me... .

I'm a big fan of "help me understand... ."  it is softer...

I like it! I'm going to try that tomorrow. Thank you FF!
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2015, 05:02:46 AM »

Hi turbo squash,

two quick thoughts

Looking at my post from a few hours ago, I am reminded of how much anxiety I was feeling at the time. I calmed myself down though and I didn't confront her and try to get her to talk about it. I have a lot of work to do to get to the point to where I don't freak out and jump to conclusions like I have been. Granted, 99% of the time, I only freak out inside and she never knows how much I am freaking out. Still, it feels like it will take a lot of work to get to a place where I don't even freak out in my head.

In regards to freaking out inside.  Don't under estimate how sensitive your pwBPD is.   Here is a true story from my world.   I wear glasses.   Trifocals actually.   A couple of years ago I got a new pair that just weren't comfortable, I was having a hard time adjusting to them.   Not worth taking them back to the shop mind you just the most tiny bit annoying.   So for a while I walked around with a small headache.  When my partner and I were going to have one of 'those' conversations I took the glasses off.   No way I was going to have one of 'those' conversations and a wee headache at the same time.   With my glasses off apparently I frown, maybe squint.  So for the 2 or 3 weeks it took me to get used to those glasses I was hearing a lot of "you are angry at me", "you are frustrated with me",  "I can tell you are upset with me".   When I finally asked how can you tell I am upset with you?  she said because you are frowning at me all the time, and I said well Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post)#$% that's because I can't see through my new glasses.   OOooOOhhh.   

How would you bring it up without making it sound like an accusation? One of the greatest difficulties of the relationship for me right now is the fact that I feel like I can rarely bring up things that are bothering me... .because the way I present it usually offends her even though I'm trying to present it in a non-confrontational way.

Yeah I remember that.   It takes a while to get passed that.   I tend to use a lot of SET, and in my own head I think of the T for Truth as the whammy of here comes what I think... .

Here would be my shot at it.

Support:   I know you have a lot going on trying to sort things out, and there are a lot of moving pieces in play here.

Empathy:  It can be hard to keep details straight during all this emotional stuff, I was sure I heard you say that Work Affair Guy is out of town all this week and next week too.  Is that still correct?

Truth:   You see, its important to me that what we communicate to each other is accurate.   Especially around this topic I need to have the sense I have the details right.

That's a little wordy but you get the basic idea.

hang in there turbo,  you are doing great.

'ducks

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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2015, 05:21:38 AM »

At the end of the day it is not about proving the accuracy of the facts. It is about ascertaining what is the plan going forward, and is it actually going forward, even if there are a few blemishes in it.

Expressing your uncertainties and fears, and in return trying to get a grip on any issues she may be having in following the plan.

Bear in mind she is likely to go into full denial, and hence the lying, about any aspects which are not spot on with "the plan'. Even if the lies are white lies to cover up innocent issues, a flawed truth is hard for a pwBPD to own.

Think about it in the way AA addresses drinking, they dont hammer on about whether a member snuck a quick drink, but how they are holding up overall, and generally heading in the right direction. pwBPD by nature bend the truth and are very liberal with white lies, dont expect complete honesty it is alien to them. The more severe you make the consequences the harder they will try to cover up.
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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2015, 05:28:27 AM »

a flawed truth is hard for a pwBPD to own.

My nature (upbringing and Naval Officer background)... .makes this a big deal to me.  This was a big issue for me to get past.

The way I get at it now... .is that I get to have my truth... .she gets to have hers.

I'm trying to substitute "point of view" ... .for truth.  Still working on that... .

FF
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turbo squash
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2015, 04:47:08 PM »

Hi turbo squash,

In regards to freaking out inside.  Don't under estimate how sensitive your pwBPD is. 

Oh my dear goodness this is so true. I went grocery shopping for her at one in the morning today. I fixed her something to eat when I brought the groceries in. I gave her a massage. We laid down next to each other for a moment, but then I started to doze off. She got agitated and warned me not to fall asleep, but she did not directly tell me to leave. I could tell that she had had enough of me though and so I said that I would just go ahead and leave. (When I was bringing the groceries over, I was told that it wasn't okay for me to spend the night.) I didn't try to hug her or drag it out. She has expressed frustration about both of those things at times.

By the time I get home, she has told me that I hurt her feelings. What?

Come to find out, she thought that my feelings were hurt and so then she felt guilty... .but she conveyed that by saying that I had hurt her feelings. Good stuff!

Quote from: babyducks


Support:   I know you have a lot going on trying to sort things out, and there are a lot of moving pieces in play here.

Empathy:  It can be hard to keep details straight during all this emotional stuff, I was sure I heard you say that Work Affair Guy is out of town all this week and next week too.  Is that still correct?

Truth:   You see, its important to me that what we communicate to each other is accurate.   Especially around this topic I need to have the sense I have the details right.

I like this. Thank you for sharing. I may not use it word for word, but it is helping me to improve the way I communicate with her.

Quote from: waverider


At the end of the day it is not about proving the accuracy of the facts. It is about ascertaining what is the plan going forward, and is it actually going forward, even if there are a few blemishes in it.

Expressing your uncertainties and fears, and in return trying to get a grip on any issues she may be having in following the plan.

That is what I am primarily trying to do right now. She did come to MC today. She participated well in my opinion. Despite her good participation, she is still not committed to fixing our marriage. She still doesn't wear her wedding ring. I feel like fixing our marriage would be cake if she just decided that she wanted to do it.

Quote from: waverider


Think about it in the way AA addresses drinking, they dont hammer on about whether a member snuck a quick drink, but how they are holding up overall, and generally heading in the right direction.

I'm trying to do this. I'm trying to keep myself centered. My journal is helping... .I am just seriously concerned about how I am going to have time to work on all of this once the semester starts back. My first classes are in 8 days. Once that starts, I'm going to be pushing myself constantly just to keep up with work and school and that is before there is any time taken to work on the marriage.

Quote from: formflier


My nature (upbringing and Naval Officer background)... .makes this a big deal to me.  This was a big issue for me to get past.

The way I get at it now... .is that I get to have my truth... .she gets to have hers.

I'm trying to substitute "point of view" ... .for truth.  Still working on that

I haven't served in the military and neither of my parents are/were military, but I grew up in a very religious household where being honest was a very big deal. I can understand why you would have a hard time with not looking at absolute truth and trying to look at point of view. Your approach sounds good, but I think it is going to also take me a while to get to a similar place.

Now I just have to deal with the gut wrenching fact that I am waiting for her to figure out what she wants... .and her work schedule has been such that she doesn't have much free time. Even when she does have free time, she doesn't seem too interested in going gung-ho at improving herself and fixing the marriage. This stuff is brutal.
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2015, 05:07:04 PM »

That is what I am primarily trying to do right now. She did come to MC today. She participated well in my opinion. Despite her good participation, she is still not committed to fixing our marriage. She still doesn't wear her wedding ring. I feel like fixing our marriage would be cake if she just decided that she wanted to do it.

Can you expand on this... .or maybe start a new thread.

What would "committing to fixing our marriage" look like?

I wouldn't focus on the wedding ring... .probably trying to trigger you.

I didn't wear my ring for years... because they are dangerous in and around a flight deck... .(seen pictures of guys fingers pulled off... .not good... )

I was more scared of loosing it... by taking it on and off... .so I left in it jewelry box.  Whenever I would put on nice watch... .I would put on ring... .class ring... and we would go out or take picturs... or whatever.

So... my wife gets fixated on the ring thing... .says I'm afraid to wear it... and all that.  So... .I start wearing it... .and tell her (in my pre BPD days) that if my finger gets jerked out of my hand... it will come back and haunt her... .oh... .the days of DRAMA...

The... .she "stole" the ring from me for a while... and was going to melt it down... or do something.  She asked nicely for it... and then wouldn't give it back.  She busted me on that once.

Anyway... .it's never left my finger since.  And won't.

She has asked several times... .even once in counseling... .the answer is... was... and will be NO.

She hasn't done anything about the ring or tried in about a year...

FF
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2015, 04:34:53 AM »

That is what I am primarily trying to do right now. She did come to MC today. She participated well in my opinion. Despite her good participation, she is still not committed to fixing our marriage. She still doesn't wear her wedding ring. I feel like fixing our marriage would be cake if she just decided that she wanted to do it.

I know exactly what you mean here. He adores me. He loves me. He'll go out of his way to do anything for me (now). But he can't be with me. Because when he came here the first night my ex (from a decade ago) met him outside our door to shake his hand and congratulate him and welcome him home. I was totally open about this friend and had NO idea the issues, but had no idea this guy would do such a thing (he has high functioning Asperges) and have not spoken with him since. There was NO romantic relationship there in over a decade!

Oh that, and I beat him . . . that one still continues. Complete fabrication and the judge is going to laugh at him because his "proof" is that he has the dates of the 4 times in his mind. I have photos of bruises, police reports, eyewitness reports, emails from therapist after our session with here where she expressed concern for my safety after speaking with him, etc. And no mention of physical abuse in the divorce papers. I think he thinks that springing it on the judge is going to work in his favor?

But now after requiring police escort to move his things out (because you know, I might punch him) he comes over alone several times this week to check on me, not even bringing a friend with for security.

But he knows the marriage can't be saved. Just baffles my mind.
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