POLL: My BPD detector went off today... interested in comments on my reaction

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

If FF refuses to address the fire

Not my fire to address ... .it's hers.(This is a victim stance. Victim role is blameless and usually moves us directly to role of Persecutor)   Had she been polite (and here is the Persecutor role, the P is in the one-up position at top of the drama triangle and sits in judgment) ... .I probably would have helped her with her fire... .(and here is the Rescue role)

Study the drama triangle article. 

[MaybeSo]

If FF refuses to address the fire

Not my fire to address ... .it's hers.(This is a victim stance. Victim role is blameless and usually moves us directly to role of Persecutor)   Had she been polite (and here is the Persecutor role, the P is in the one-up position at top of the drama triangle and sits in judgment) ... .I probably would have helped her with her fire... .(and here is the Rescue role)

Study the drama triangle article. 

[chump]

What a great thread!  Its duration speaks to the complex issues in play, and how human relationships are so layered and interdependent.  Paying attention to the dynamics of drama, control, right vs wrong, one-up/one-down, etc, I believe is exactly where the essence or truth of the thing lies.

This is why I love the posture of respectfully “agreeing to disagree.”  So much of human drama comes from not accepting another’s point of view.  It’s not enough to seek their cooperation, or a negotiated compromise, we want them to AGREE with us.  In other words confirm our rightness, and sooth any discomfort we may have with our own vulnerability, fear, or other unintegrated parts of ourselves. 

And if you want to find out a lot about a person, just ask if they’re willing to “agree to disagree.”

And this is why I have been so admiring of FF’s position.  Starting with the original interaction, and then wading through pages and pages of feedback, he has assiduously held to a neutral position, with almost no defensiveness, no trying to prove the other person wrong.

This is where needing to be right so often veers off track, when we’re not confident enough in our own position that we go a step further and try to convince the other of their wrongness.  With very few exceptions, FF has avoided that here, and I respect it.

And that’s why I chimed in.  It seemed that a number of posters, beyond offering perspective, points of view, support, etc, had stepped over that invisible line into trying to convince FF that he was wrong.

I didn’t see how asking for an apology as a condition for continued interaction was rude or shaming or trying to convince another person of their wrongness, just drawing a boundary and being content to stay on your own side of the street.  Someone else might call that smug or something similar, but that already implies a responsibility to a complete stranger who so far has shown herself to be pretty disrespectful of boundaries.  Calmly choosing to opt out of further interactions may be infuriating to some people, but in and of itself causes no harm to them.  True, if a person is insecure in their position and someone takes offense, it’s not uncommon for them to be defensive when asked for an apology.  So while it may have been somewhat predictable that FF’s request for an apology would lead to a shame response in another person, they are responsible for their own feelings and reactions.

I realize as I type this that I’m flirting with my own rule about not trying to convince others of their wrongness (another way of trying to be right).  I hope I am staying respectfully on my side of the line of “agreeing to disagree” while also shedding light on how those of us on this side of discussion are looking at it.

[formflier]

 

While I may "fit" in the drama triangle (not saying I agree that I do)... .I want to let you know about the models I was actually using and thinking about.

I was thinking about a negotiating model when having the interaction... .

I was trying to drive to a solution that I (and hopefully both) would be ok with.

And... was trying to do this quickly (remember... I'm a BLUF guy... .Bottom Line Up Front).

My responsibility to the other party... .and when negotiating... .is... .if the tables were turned... .would I feel comfortable accepting the deal.  If I wouldn't... .then I would want to examine whether or not I was taking advantage of someone... .rather than conducting business... .and making a profit

That was the model that I was using from the business side of things.  The majority of my thoughts were centered on business... .and "business principle"... .the dollar amount is irrelevant. 

From the personal side of things... .the general model I was using was Matthew (New Testament).  This was much less emphasis on this... but it was there.

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.



FF

[rotiroti]

People get emotional when it involves their kids. Have you met someone who's against vaccinations? Impossible to reason with

[MaybeSo]

MaybeSo,

If defending my honor or- more importantly- that of a friend or family member is drama, then I am proud to be a drama queen.

I don't look for reasons to be offended. In fact, I am pretty easygoing. But to let things go every time just to avoid "drama" is as wrong as going out and looking for it. Let's go to Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. The vices are excess and deficiency. The virtue is the mean, or correct amount. I think FF hit that mean with his measured response.

Gosh I know nothing about Aristole's Nicomachean Ethics.   

I don't advocate for conflict avoidance. 

I strive for self-responsibility and leading with kindness while maintaining healthy boundaries.  Taking good care of my own boundaries is part of self-responsibility.   


My all time heroes are these masters that work with and interact with people that just have such skill at repair…no matter how the person is showing up... .from the best to the absolute worst you see in people….they always lead with this incredible decency and kindness, and they are so completely unaffected and so NOT entitled… and they just hit it out if the park.  I am talking about incredibly boundaried people here,  these are no push-overs.  That's what I strive for.  I'm far from it, but it's what I strive for. 

[formflier]

My all time heroes are these masters that work with and interact with people that just have such skill at repair…no matter how the person is showing up... .from the best to the absolute worst you see in people….they always lead with this incredible decency and kindness, and they are so completely unaffected and so NOT entitled… and they just hit it out if the park.  I am talking about incredibly boundaried people here,  these are no push-overs.  That's what I strive for.  I'm far from it, but it's what I strive for. 

Might take a step back and think about the "role" that I was playing here.

Business... negotiation.  And... I was fine with status quo... .still am. 

No need to repair... .I'll go do something else with my time.

Switch my hats:  When I was Skipper... .I had all kinds of people in my office... .with all kinds of human problems.  Box of tissues was never far.  Repair was on my mind... .I did it often... .I did it well. 

The worst... .absolute worst... .and the time I would have to be at my best... .was knocking on a door... .and letting a wife... .or parents know that their Sailor had been killed in action.  If the system worked well... they had no warning... .they all new what a uniform in their door meant... .  Repair doesn't even begin to describe what is needed.

I know what you mean... .some people have the knack for soothing all that they come across.

That's not me.  I'm comfortable with that.

FF

[MaybeSo]

The worst... .absolute worst... .and the time I would have to be at my best... .was knocking on a door... .and letting a wife... .or parents know that their Sailor had been killed in action.  If the system worked well... they had no warning... .they all new what a uniform in their door meant... .  Repair doesn't even begin to describe what is needed.

Everyone is wounded and in need of repair. Every single person on this earth has been broken or will be broken.  It's the the price of admission.  Every interaction we have is with another wounded soul.

I know what you mean... .some people have the knack for soothing all that they come across.

That's not me.  I'm comfortable with that. 

You obviously have skill in this area or you wouldn't be on this board.

BTW... .my favorite bible story is when Jesus lost his sh** and kicked some a** in the temple with those merchants.

I guess everyone loses their sh** sometimes. 

Keeps me humble.

[waverider]

THE PROBLEM

Two people has opposite initial perceptions of an issue that is causing problems

THE GOAL

Determine the actual problem and reach a fair resolution

THE OBSTACLE

Both parties feel like they are being attacked/taken for a ride/cheated

THE PATH TO RESOLVING

Not inflaming the others initial perceptions, so the real issue can be addressed without over heightened emotions clouding things

TRAPS TO FALL INTO

Forgetting that we can only control us, and attempting to use demands rather than boundaries. Demanding anything of someone who is already entrenched in victim mode is only going to further validate the victim stance as it is seen as controlling and hence a personal attack. The auto response to this is fight back... Reaction begets counter reaction>escalating conflict. Loose/Loose for everyone.

CONTAINMENT & CENTERING

Deviation from productive discussion should be be reigned in with boundaries about what you are willing to do, or not do, with enforcement. eg I Don't do abusive negotiations. By retreating from abusive negotiations then you don't fuel yourself, the other party is then given time to reassess. You have not invalidated their right to feel wronged.  You have given them the space to make a choice to either self soothe, so they can re engage to try to get their issue resolved, or live with the consequences. Their behavior is not your issue.

CONTINUING THE DRAMA

By making demands on someone in full victim mode, you are making a request that is doomed to failure and in effect not allowing the pendulm of drama to loose energy instead you are giving it big push back and adding energy and agenda  to the "debate".

DRAMA SHIFTS FOCUS

We are no longer discussing whether an item is faulty, or not, and whether the claim is valid, rather the focus of the drama has now shifted to FFs demand for an apology... and who is the victim and who is the persecutor>> The drama cycle perpetuates, and the initial issue is no closer to being resolved. Its an unnecessary energy sap that has achieved nothing.

TAKE AN EXAMPLE FROM THE PROFESSIONALS

Do the police force train their members to demand apologies from angry members of the public who are pulling the victim stance, or do they encourage them to not engage in heated debate?

Similar how do major retailers train their customer service staff to deal with an endless stream of complainants? They do this repeatedly everyday

Life is to precious to be wasted dealing with, or postmorteming someone elses hissy fits.

[MaybeSo]

By making demands on someone in full victim mode, you are making a request that is doomed to failure and in effect not allowing the pendulm of drama to loose energy instead you are giving it big push back and adding energy and agenda  to the "debate".

Bingo.   Drama dynamics always shift us away from self responsibility and prevents problem solving.

[Skip]

Why did you pick drama is the hard question here.  

I don't understand where the drama comes in. FF did not attack her in return or attempt to escalate. He simply stated his terms for a return of the $30, that being an apology for a personal attack. Or am I perceiving what happened incorrectly?  

What I see is someone taking a stand against a behavior which permeates our fast food society and damages our culture. "I want it my way, right now. And if you mess up it is my right to go off on you and attack you personally." I work in the security industry as a consultant to C level executives on policy, procedure, HR, and physical security measures. Every client I have is installing cameras and panic buttons in their public contact areas because of people with this mindset. Universities, hospitals, government agencies and large corporations alike all have to deal with this issue. And companies are taking a stand. Many retailers are reviewing video of these incidents and telling rude customers not to come back.  

Had FF not called her on her actions, he would have been reinforcing her behavior and she would have done the same to the next person who made her mad. I would have handled it very much the same way he did with no regrets.        

Cole,

I have similar thoughts... .you have my mindset correct.  I'm going to read the drama article... .triangle... .and then come back to this.

And going back to the article…

Why do we get into dramas?  Because we have adopted a drama style to resolving dealing with conflict. We believe in it.

FF, you said you were a bottom line guy… the bottom line in this instance is "refund" or "no refund"… then a sip of ice tea and off to the garage to get the mower and mow the lawn.

If our justification for taking a left turn into dramaville is "fast food society and damages our culture" and the bettering mankind, its more a sign of how committed we are to drama resolutions. And I'm not singling you out here - we read it on the board everyday.

Try this - flip the situation and look at it.

What if she said she wanted her money back, plus an apology for selling her damaged goods and for all the time she has to invest in driving out to get a refund.  And that she was doing this because she is tired of a society that sell defective products, food, and medicines to unsuspecting families.

The premise on the Karpman's theory is that some people migrate into a drama mindset ands it boils down to this... .

The motivation is that she gets her unspoken (and frequently unconscious) psychological wishes/needs met in a manner she feel justified, without having to acknowledge the broader dysfunction or harm done in the situation as a whole.

If you see it with her you will see it with you.

What value does Karpman's work provide.  It helps us see something about ourselves that is not very easy to see.

[KateCat]

Thank you very much for the four most recent posts on this thread. I now feel much less disoriented.

[Notwendy]

What value does Karpman's work provide.  .It helps us see something about ourselves that is not very easy to see



Yes! It is a tool, and something we can use as a tool for us, not on someone else.

We are all here because of some relationship dysfunction. While our S/O's appear to have a problem, and even be diagnosed with a PD, our relationship style matches them somehow. If we choose to stay with them, then for the r/s dynamics to change, we have to change.

Chump mentioned pushing the "right/wrong" boundary. Perhaps it can be considered not as a right/wrong choice but a search for a drama free/emotionally healthy ways of interacting. Many of our ways of relating to people are not necessarily wrong, or a- moral- they can work for us, they can feel right , and they can feel comfortable because they are how we do things.

But how we relate to people is part of why we struggle in our relationships.

Cole mentioned that there is a difference between a rude stranger and a S/O with BPD. Yes, there is, but the Karpman triangle can apply to how we relate to people. The common denominator is us. The triangle can be applied to a broad range of situations, not limited to BPD, but it can be a valuable tool to get insight into ourselves when dealing with someone with BPD.

[Harri]

waverider, thank you for making this drama issue make sense to me and for presenting your argument in a direct and non-inflammatory way.

There are a lot more lessons to be learned by looking at all of the responses in this thread--->  Internal boundary violations, assumptions, projections, invalidating comments, inability to see another's point of view, allowing personal feelings to dictate the facts of another persons behaviors, etc.  I do not think any of them were intentionally done, but obviously we all need to learn better and more effective ways of communicating. 

I agree with chump when he said this is an excellent thread.  I did not know formflier at all when this whole buggy caper started, but I am so very glad he stuck with it.  It has been a huge learning opportunity for me and an exercise in patience and tolerance where I normally have little to none.  Seeing FF stand firm without being obstinate and defiant but open and willing to listen and learn is another huge win for me in my book.

Well done FF!  Thank you.

[formflier]

What if she said she wanted her money back, plus an apology for selling her damaged goods and for all the time she has to invest in driving out to get a refund.  And that she was doing this because she is tired of a society that sell defective products, food, and medicines to unsuspecting families.

I would offer the chance for her to come out and let me look at the item... .if I determined that it was bad/defective... whatever... .I would issue the apology.

I would offer the chance (assuming no odd texts like in the exchange that actually happened) to return the item and get a refund.

If... there was some follow up or request for me to apologize sight unseen or some such thing.  I would politely decline as I don't believe I sold bad (damaged... whatever) goods.

More to come... .

FF

[formflier]

FF, you said you were a bottom line guy… the bottom line in this instance is "refund" or "no refund"… then a sip of ice tea and off to the garage to get the mower and mow the lawn.

Interesting... .so... .still haven't read the article... .(races for trailer hubs have been kicking my rear... )

I can see where Bluf taken to it's fullest potential could have lead me to send back and text that just said "No"  and leave it at that.

Or perhaps no response. 

I was looking at it from the point of view of what is the bottom line to get to a refund... .what she was kinda implying she wanted... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

FF, you said you were a bottom line guy… the bottom line in this instance is "refund" or "no refund"… then a sip of ice tea and off to the garage to get the mower and mow the lawn.

Interesting... .so... .still haven't read the article... .(races for trailer hubs have been kicking my rear... )

I can see where Bluf taken to it's fullest potential could have lead me to send back and text that just said "No"  and leave it at that.

Or perhaps no response.

I was looking at it from the point of view of what is the bottom line to get to a refund... .what she was kinda implying she wanted... .

FF

Hmm... . Caveat Emptor.

Gosh, look at all those weeds in the garden.  Shew, better get pulling!  Will see how I feel about it after. 

[enlighten me]

One thing I have been told and that has stuck is that it is not what you say but how it is received.

It is very easy for things to come across as wrong especially when not done face to face.

I can see how the exchange has put your back up especially after being involved with a pwBPD.

I dont fault you for your response as it made you feel the way it did.

I would have handled it differently but we all do things differently. By being non confrontational and offering to come and look at the pushchair and offering a refund you may have got more of an Idea of what you are dealing with. If she was just trying it on or trying to pass blame she would have backed off and refused. By letting any insults wash off of you and continuing with your offer politely she would be forced into a corner and end up telling you to forget it. If she was genuine though she would have accepted this offer.

I see it going like this.

Her. You sold me a dangerous broken pushchair.

You. Im sorry I wasnt aware it was broken. I can come and have a look and give you a refund.

Her. Just send me the money. I cant believe you would risj my childs life.

You... Once again im sorry. As I said before I will come and collect it and refund you.

Her dont bother I will sort something else out.

You are you sure. I am more than happy to come and collect and refund you.

Her forget it.

This is how I would see it playing out with a pwBPD or someone just trying it on.

If it was genuinly broken then your offer would have been accepted.

By the above interaction you havent gone back on your values. You have shown you have strong values of being polite and fair.

[sweetheart]

I think to try to answer your question Cole, and why this thread has gotten so much attention is that it isn't about whether or not FF did the "right" thing, whether he is standing up for what is right or having to be right.

It was about taking this incident and looking at it in different ways, so that perhaps a new behavior could be learned.

Why do we need to learn new behaviors?

Because we are the other half of our spouses and for many of us, we are in a behavioral pattern with them, a pattern that matches our dysfunctions. It is sometimes referred to as a dance.

We do this dance well. Some of us learned it as kids. However, if we are not happy in our r/s- we need to learn new steps. The problem is that these steps are new, they are not comfortable to us. They may not even work, but we know that what we are doing doesn't always work either.

The idea- and it seemed to some that we are taking issue with FF - but that isn't the point. It is that the steps we know, the ones that feel comfortable and right to us, may be the ones that can keep us stuck, so maybe we can try something different.

Hi ff,

I wanted to put lots of peoples words up in the little quote boxes but I don't know how to do it,   but Notwendy captures for me the essence of this thread.

I also think that what we learn here is just as important in the outside world including the business world where in my experience power and control dominate.

Conflict resolution has many different styles, but for me kindness, empathy, validation,acceptance and understanding cut through conflict and high drama quicker than any other style. How could they not? We deal here with some of the most high conflict situations I've ever encountered, and I've encountered many in my professional life. And of course my personal life.

Someone wrote further back in the thread that the skills we learn here are just for dealing with our SO's behaviours, not any other area/aspect of our lives.

Why so, when we all know that using these skills work. Using these skills outside our relationship won't make us soft or weak or less than because by their very nature they are  emotionally strengthening, empowering and empathetic.

[MaybeSo]

Here are four types of communication: passive, aggressive, passive aggressive, and assertive. 

•   Passive – I lose, you win.

•   Aggressive – I win, you lose.

•   Passive Aggressive – I win, you lose, but I’m doing it in a sneaky or quiet way that doesn’t look overtly aggressive

•   Assertive – I win, you win too.

A review – Skills to get off the drama triangle

•   Assertiveness

•   Setting appropriate boundaries

•   Letting others be themselves and respecting their way

•   Communicating clearly and directly

•   Taking responsibility for your feelings and your life

•   It is NOT your job to get a person to agree with you and see your side. Your job is to convey your wishes and needs clearly.   

•   When you are assertive you are doing a good job of stating your own opinions, view, needs, and wants, while honoring and validating the other person’s point of view as well.

•   If you use the assertive style then you would clearly say that you disagree with a person’s point of view, but that you can see how he/she may see things that way. With this style you validate the other’s position (this doesn’t mean you agree, just that you can imagine why or how they think this), and are clear about your own point of view. This is the win win. Neither of you have to give yourself up and neither of you is put down for being wrong or bad.

Excerpts Taken From: www.catherinebruns.com/category/drama-triangle-2/page/3/

[Sunfl0wer]

How about a response that validates her expressed reality, then just drops her reality on the floor?  Maybe this holds her responsible for her words without YOU being the one causing it.

Such as:

It sounds like you feel taken advantage of by someone who you feel was acting maliciously towards you by knowingly putting your children in harms way. 

These are serious claims to make, and I take what you have expressed seriously.  It would not be wise for either of us to continue further contact. 

(This is also true.  I do not feel safe inviting this type of person to meet up or even coorespond.  Also, would you seriously allow your wife to meet up with a scam artist for a refund?  Her behavior contradicts her words... .maybe let her words speak back to her?)

[formflier]

 

MaybeSo,

Great post.  

There are two angles to look at this from... .what I was intending to do... .and an after action of how it went down.

Part of how this would be categorized... .depends on the other person deciding if they wanted to win or not.

I clearly decided when the deal got opened up again that I was going to win... .and placed the choice back with the other person.

Had she accepted... .I could be categorized as assertive (according to this post)... .she decided to "lose" at which point I would seem to be categorized as Aggressive.

Is there a difference in looking at this through the communications "lens" versus a negotiating "lens"?

I proposed a "win-win"  (from my point of view) and if tables were turned... .I would have accepted.

Usually... .when I am in the negotiating mode I am proposing solutions that work for me (and would work for ME if on the other foot)  :)epending on how much I know about the other person... .I may try to craft solutions that I believe will work for them... .but that is NOT my responsibility.

I put out pieces that work for me... .if the other party can make those pieces fit into something that works for them great... .they have a win... .as do I... .and it is their choice.

I'm fine with being "labeled" aggressive... .although personally I describe myself as assertive.  

FF

[formflier]

Sunflower,

Those responses are genius... .they come from totally different point of view than I have... .I would never cook something like that up... .but... .my hat is off to you...

And... .I will stick those in my hip pocket... .and maybe... .just maybe someday... .pull one out.

I'm thinking about two different "worlds" here... .or basic approaches.

Most of us on bpdfamily... .have had to learn how to address the emotional aspects of human interactions.

And... .no surprise... .I think the majority of the responses on here address how I could have improved my emotional response to her... .or addressed her emotions.   

There is another way to approach it... .which seems much "colder" (especially to people firmly on the side of dealing with emotions)... but it's all about a spreadsheet (in my head) and making the pieces fit... ."just the facts".  Emotion doesn't really get involved... .if it does... .I will try to step away... .regain composure... .and get back into it.

For this lady... .I think it was an emotional experience.  I was a negotiator... .moving the pieces around... to keep a business deal where I was "winning"

So... back in the day... .we had a side business of real estate.  I've bought and sold a fair number of houses in my day (flipping).  About zero emotional attachment to those deals. 

For the people buying them (as their own homes... ) the interactions were full of emotions.  For me... just a spreadsheet.  Sure... I would smile... shake hands... .say pleasantries... .but that was it... .sort of following an accepted script of behavior... and then leaving the decision in their hands.

We've also moved a lot (my family)... .I buy houses totally differently when its about us.  Investment is really not in the picture... .its about family... emotion... .etc etc. 

That is sort of the way I saw this go down with this lady. 

For me... .it was a pretty neutral experience (emotionally).  She got off "script" (accepted... honorable behavior... IMO) and I let her know that she could get what she wanted if she got back "on script" of behaving politely.

Not sure if this helps frame things or my "state of mind" differently... .or the way I approach things.

FF

[ReclaimingMyLife]

FF, your thread reminds me of something I learned from the leader of my mastermind group.  She reads about 6 business books a month and forgets nothing (a firehose of information).  She shared the following rule of thumb: 

"good news to eyes (email, text etc) and bad news to ears (phone, in person)." 

This seems to be practical advice on a couple of levels.  Regarding bad news, (1) it allows for each party to have inflection in their voice to minimize miscommunication, and (2) there is no written record of anything "gone bad" (just plain smart). 

I am trying hard to use this consistently in my life.  Many times I want to text/email bad news so I can avoid what will likely be an uncomfortable conversation, but I am now working to follow rule of thumb above.

I do not know if your situation would have turned out any differently had it been a conversation instead of a text.  Indeed, this started with her so she ideally would have called you instead of texting you.  I guess then the next ideal thing is for you to call her having received her "bad news" text. 

Who knows how it might (or might not) have turned out differently, but I think this rule of thumb is worth using.  To use with our kids, spouses, colleagues, etc.  I recently sent a "bad news" text to a client to which she did not respond. My intent was very different than she likely interpreted it and had I called her I think it would have gone down very differently and much better. 

Food for thought! 

[formflier]

FF, your thread reminds me of something I learned from the leader of my mastermind group.  She reads about 6 business books a month and forgets nothing (a firehose of information).  She shared the following rule of thumb: 

"good news to eyes (email, text etc) and bad news to ears (phone, in person)." 

That is great advice. 

Personally... .I text very little with my wife about our r/s... .it's... ."all business"... .get milk... bread... .pick up a kid... that kind of thing.

We used to get in trouble by discussing "feelings" via text.  She wants to continue doing that... .I don't respond.

I tend to "mirror" whoever I am working with... .(in business)... .and tend to resist jumping communications channels.

So... I figure they are most comfortable texting... .if that is what they "lead" with... .so I stick with that... .unless a couple interactions show me that the medium has "failed"... .then I may take the initiative to move mediums.

Personally... .when I have a difficult business thing... .I will use email or text to set a meeting to discuss "X" but won't give a preview. 

If there is one issue... .then it gets handled.  If there are a couple issues... .I will say something like I'm seeing 2 things in this contract that we are not "eye to eye" on and 2 other things which we seem to agree on that need to be explored further.  Which would you like to handle first?

Anyway... .great point...

FF

[MaybeSo]

I proposed a "win-win"  (from my point of view) and if tables were turned... .I would have accepted.

but that you can see how he/she may see things that way. With this style you validate the other’s position (this doesn’t mean you agree, just that you can imagine why or how they think this), and are clear about your own point of view. This is the win win.

It is not a win-win.

It didn't validate  or even acknowledge the main thrust of her email AT ALL and as Waverider points out your response throws gas on a fire and it also sidetracks the problem into drama dynamics.  Drama is about who is bad and who is good.  The problem-solving is sidetracked and it becomes a fight over who is bad and who is good.  Stay out of the drama.

FF... .The main thrust of her text was this:

I am afraid (and a little hysterical) that you are a jerk who sold me a dangerous stroller that could hurt my babies and you don't even care.

This was NOT the main thrust of her text AT ALL. Not at all.

I want my $30.00 back.

She is in victim mode. The whole text is about fear. This is all fear driven.  Her brain isn't even online. 

Oh my gosh, the brakes worked fine last I checked.  I am so sorry.  I am of course willing to come look at it and provide a refund upon inspection.

A boundary is already in place in that you want to inspect the stroller.  If you feel you need a boundary regarding further interaction:

While I can totally appreciate your fear since you don't know me, I can assure you I want to do the right thing here.  Along those lines, I ask that you please speak respectfully as we go forward so I can do that. Thank you.



If she continues with abuse:

I am not able to assist you any further.  Have a nice day. 

I would be fine with the above b/c her shrill tone would not jar me too much.  I'd be looking for how she reacts to my validating, problem solving response.  If she continues to personalize or abusive after that... .then I'd end it. 

Such as:

It sounds like you feel taken advantage of by someone who you feel was acting maliciously towards you by knowingly putting your children in harms way. 

These are serious claims to make, and I take what you have expressed seriously.  It would not be wise for either of us to continue

further contact.   

I really like this too b/c it still validates the core theme of her text and is still clear and boundaried.  Absolutely!  Here you know you are already done with this person, that's your boundary... .but you ARE STILL acknowledging the core of the issue.  You heard her AND took seriously what you heard. Beautiful. 

[Sunfl0wer]

Sunflower,

Those responses are genius... .they come from totally different point of view than I have... .I would never cook something like that up... .but... .my hat is off to you...

And... .I will stick those in my hip pocket... .and maybe... .just maybe someday... .pull one out.

I'm thinking about two different "worlds" here... .or basic approaches.

Most of us on bpdfamily... .have had to learn how to address the emotional aspects of human interactions.

And... .no surprise... .I think the majority of the responses on here address how I could have improved my emotional response to her... .or addressed her emotions.   

There is another way to approach it... .which seems much "colder" (especially to people firmly on the side of dealing with emotions)... but it's all about a spreadsheet (in my head) and making the pieces fit... ."just the facts".  Emotion doesn't really get involved... .if it does... .I will try to step away... .regain composure... .and get back into it.

I don't think of my suggested response as cold.  I think it is appropriate to model appropriate business behavior according to your values of how you feel business interactions work most efficiently.  I feel this is healthy for all involved, on all levels... .both business and emotional.

For this lady... .I think it was an emotional experience.  I was a negotiator... .moving the pieces around... to keep a business deal where I was "winning"

So... back in the day... .we had a side business of real estate.  I've bought and sold a fair number of houses in my day (flipping).  About zero emotional attachment to those deals. 

For the people buying them (as their own homes... ) the interactions were full of emotions.  For me... just a spreadsheet.  Sure... I would smile... shake hands... .say pleasantries... .but that was it... .sort of following an accepted script of behavior... and then leaving the decision in their hands.

We've also moved a lot (my family)... .I buy houses totally differently when its about us.  Investment is really not in the picture... .its about family... emotion... .etc etc. 

That is sort of the way I saw this go down with this lady. 

For me... .it was a pretty neutral experience (emotionally).  She got off "script" (accepted... honorable behavior... IMO) and I let her know that she could get what she wanted if she got back "on script" of behaving politely.

Not sure if this helps frame things or my "state of mind" differently... .or the way I approach things.

I think I hear you. It sounds like you expect that house sales for the homewoener to be emotional and represent “family” and “home” vs a piece of real estate.  Therefore you were always aware, preemptively detached and prepared for them to have these emotional doubts and such.  Therefore you kept a distance, didn’t entangle in that as no good ever will come of that on your part…it is for them to sort out.  Being the firm rock helps them regain being grounded vs entangling in their emotion to help them sort.

So maybe you are saying that you were a bit caught off guard here.  That maybe if you have the similar approach you did with real estate, that you will depersonalize the business transaction more?  Kinda like you wear a certain “business hat” in real estate transactions, so you can just go put that hat back on?  Am I close?

In my reply, I was actually thinking of the recent post by member named gameover where he explains how to leave a person with BPD and remain painted white. (_{https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281522.msg12659961#msg12659961})  My main takeaway from that was to do as much as you can to relate, agree, then they are left to deal again with themselves, unable to throw the emotion off of them onto you.  This way, they cannot focus on your response and reaction as a distraction. 

So I was thinking, heck…  she is accusing you of something pretty mean spirited and unsafe…heck…don’t act like she doesn’t really mean her words, don’t try to change her reality, don’t remove that reality from the equation.  Instead “believe it” and “live it” right back to her for her to face.  (Vs ignoring it, and calling it “unreal” or thinking of it as “manipulation.”)  It is like she is bluffing and you are calling her bluff…treating her words real with your behavior.  Because in the end anyway, persons who believe their feelings are facts, actually DO believe their feelings are facts.



Maybe when I personally do this (respond to others emotions unnecessarily) is where I am at fault and start engaging with persons that others would not. I often “see” that what a person expressing is not their reality. I relate and have compassion for their emotional experience, I can ignore their words, however, their emotional experience is NOT all that there is going on here.  Neither is mine. 

So then I switched to thinking of my values:

I do not feel it is safe to unnecessarily engage in persons who appear to want to cause me harm. (She wanted to motivate you by harming your character)

For me:. 

I am observing now, times that I engage in conversation to alleviate others feelings or smooth over their opinions of me to further business transactions.  I find it challenging to weigh when or if this is appropriate/helpful.

I have had the pleasure this week to observe someone who keeps just “dropping” things on the floor, so to speak, and not even confronting the person who said something odd.  I am trying to integrate that behavior I observed, also parts of the advice from that post re: staying white…  And see if I can find ways to just stop picking up the “bacon” of emotion that others pass to me, or that I grab, and what would it look like?  Would it just look like the stuff dropping on the floor?  Does that make sense?

[formflier]

 

Sunflower,

The thrust of my post was that I had an emotional... business response to her... .much like when I was doing real estate.

The deal was done.  This lady wanted to undo it... .I laid out what would need to happen for that.

The emotional stuff is hers to figure out.  That is how I approached selling houses when it was "all business"

Again... I'm not saying I was right... or wrong... .just my point of view.

FF

[formflier]

Such as:

It sounds like you feel taken advantage of by someone who you feel was acting maliciously towards you by knowingly putting your children in harms way. 

These are serious claims to make, and I take what you have expressed seriously.  It would not be wise for either of us to continue

further contact.   

d boundaried.  Absolutely!  Here you know you are already done with this person, that's your boundary... .but you ARE STILL acknowledging the core of the issue.  You heard her AND took seriously what you heard. Beautiful. 

Maybeso,

Wow... .my hat is off.  That is great. 

I now have another Costanza moment. 

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Ooops FF! I stand corrected.  

Clearly my interpretation filled in the blanks via projection.

[Cat Familiar]

My objective in pursuing this topic, albeit a bit aggressively when I meant to be assertive, was hoping that formflier could look at the interaction from the point of view of his disgruntled buyer. I don't think I've accomplished that.

It's none of my business how formflier chooses to handle his interactions, but he did ask for comments on his reaction.

Formflier has been an advisor on this board and is currently a welcoming ambassador. He freely gives excellent advice and feedback. I believed he was looking for same in posting this thread.

To imagine how someone else sees an interaction in no way takes away from our power, honor, control or influence. It's just a good starting point in any conversation or negotiation.

One of the principles of the martial art aikido is: "True Victory is Victory Over Oneself One must first learn to control oneself before attempting to harmonize and control others."

Another is this: "Regardless of the situation, friend or foe, one must always be ready to harmonize."

Another: "Put Yourself In Your Partner's Place. In Aikido this can literally mean swapping places with someone. In daily life it is the same. We consider how we would feel if we were the person in a difficult situation."

In any circumstance, whether dealing with a loved one with BPD, advising a board member, being with family and friends, working with colleagues, superiors, employees, or negotiating with an unhappy buyer, imagining their reality gives us greater power in formulating a strategy to respond. Stepping into their shoes and really getting a perspective of how they view the situation in no way weakens us, it strengthens our abilities and develops our awareness.

For some reason, this interaction stuck in formflier's mind and that is why he chose to post it. However he deals with people is his choice. He did ask for feedback and several of us tried to point out that regardless of whether the stroller was broken, his buyer was really upset and the way he chose to deal with the situation inflamed it, rather than leading to a win/win.

There are those of you who think he should shut down bad behavior and see nothing wrong with his response. To this I ask you, did this woman learn anything? I doubt it. I think she learned that she got ripped off by a bully.

To those of you who think she's a scam artist--really? For $30 and having to take the time to drive back to formflier's house and confront a potentially angry (and who knows what else she might have imagined he would be or do)? Really? That's a pretty bad return on her investment of time and energy.

And Cole, if you think that using the tools is only a worthwhile use of your time for dealing with your wife, you're missing out on a lot of practice time. It would be like if I thought "Oh, I'm not riding my horse in competition before judges right now so I really don't need to pay a lot of attention or ride perfectly." If I thought that way, my ass would hit the ground and I would not be honing my skills.

And I posted this without reading the above few posts... .