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Author Topic: Formflier's BPD detector and reactions continued  (Read 1135 times)
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2015, 08:19:25 AM »

Again, this is not to pick on you FF, or say right or wrong 

Hey... .I really don't feel picked on or triggered... .I appreciate the input.  I like to "understand" other points of view... .especially ones that I don't agree with... .

That way I can take the new understanding and challenge my decisions and assumptions and actions... .

Perhaps there is a better way... .process improvement and all that... .

In life... .I tend to not be scared of errors of "commission" (things that I consciously decided to do)... .but I tend to worry about what I don't know and errors of "omission".  So... .my searching and examining of other points of view will either entrench me more in my current position... .or... .move me along to another perspective.

FF
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2015, 08:54:57 AM »

Excerpt
e bought the stroller from you last weekend. I clearly asked if it was in working order and if anything needed replacing. You told me just wear and tear, but in working order. This stroller has no brakes! The hand brake and the foot break are both completely broken. Thank God I didn't put my kids in this very unsafe stroller. I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do. However, I do encourage you to consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children.

My kids are 2 months and 2 years old. I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way. I'm very disappointed. 2:08 PM

FF.  Her underlying message is about fear. that's legit.  

No, you don't have to address it as this is a 'business exchange' if you don't want to.   But in my opinion it would be the honorable thing to do.  She gave birth 2 months ago to an infant, she was planning to put that infant in the stroller she bought from you.  

Fear is fueling her text to you.

There is a disconnect, FF, in your insistence on defending your honor and your response. Your insistence and priority to defend your honor with a stranger is making you come-off like a jerk.  You are not a jerk.  I can see you are not a jerk.  However,  you come off 'like a jerk' when I read your response.

An honorable response would be to address this human being's normal range fear response AND less importantly... .offer her her $30 back.  

There is no acknowledge of her as a human being and a mother who was planning on putting a 24 month old infant in that jogging stroller... .you  jumped directly to a defensive tone and demand from HER for an apology to get her $30 bucks back?  She is not upset about $30.  This is a human making a bid to another human to be human about this... .You are both humans... . Neither one of you want in any way for kids to be put in harms way, you can  both agree on this... .and this is the crux of her text... .it has nothing to do with business... .we are humans and can connect on that level, and that is what she is asking of you... .to respond to her as a human being.   Her fear does make her text sound shrill.  This is a normal range human reaction in this context (texting).

I am so sorry!  As far as I knew the stroller was in perfect working order last we used it. I of course understand your upset and never would have sold it if I had know the brakes were bad!  I am so glad you checked it thoroughly b/f putting your kids in the stroller. And, of course I will accept a return.  Of course!  




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« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2015, 11:30:35 AM »

FF,

Throughout this thread, you seem doggedly entrenched in your position, but interested in other peoples' perspectives.

I sense no movement in your position nor compassion for your buyer.

You might want to look at this tendency in yourself. It doesn't give a good impression to others.

Through reading your threads for months, I've seen a kind considerate guy. That guy is absent here.

By the way, congratulations on your new job!
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« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2015, 11:35:17 AM »

ff remember yesterday I said I felt triggered when I read the post, it was because it was such a 'yucky' exchange, it left me feeling really angry. The reason for this is that I found your response arrogant and passive-aggressive. Now if that engendered that response in me, I can only take my hat off to the woman who walked away.

Like I said yesterday, it felt like you threw down the gauntlet for a fight and if it had been me with the buggy I would have picked that gauntlet right up! Smiling (click to insert in post)

I know you're not a jerk either ff, but like MayBeSo said that's how you come over in the exchange.

I suppose because of the tools that we learn on here and how you are about coaching us and applying things so diligently learned here with your wife, I was a taken aback by the whole exchange, it really jarred with me.
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« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2015, 11:41:25 AM »

Through reading your threads for months, I've seen a kind considerate guy. That guy is absent here.

That's it ff, there is a word in my head and it is incongruence, which means not corresponding in character or kind.

I appreciate we are only human, but for some reason it matters that we walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

Does this make sense?
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« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2015, 12:17:53 PM »

  The reason for this is that I found your response arrogant and passive-aggressive.

Hey... .I'm curious... .and I've admitted before I really don't understand passive aggressive. 

I get accused (by my wife) of that all the time... .my (our) Ts scoffed at that... .and have consistently leaned on me to dial down the aggression... .(which I describe as direct)... .

I can see how it comes off as arrogant... .again... .I would use different words... .but I see that point of view.

However... .I don't see myself as a passive person... .I get to the point... .directly... .no beating around the bush.

If I had to label one part of the exchange passive aggressive... .I would go with her side... ."suggesting" I wouldn't pay her... or that I might endanger her kids... .seemed to me she tried to say things without committing... .

Is that passive aggressive?

Aggression (to me) would entail name calling and or challenging someone to put on boxing gloves... .pick up pugil sticks... .or step outside (it's been a few years since I've actually done that... .but... surprisingly effective at settling things... )

More later! 

FF
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« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2015, 12:58:17 PM »

No, passive aggression can be things like insisting that an unnecessary routine or procedure be followed even in trivial transactions, like asking for the apology for instance. The other person is left with a yucky feeling of just being sucker punched, like i was.

Passive aggressive behaviour is largely unconscious and can stem from feeling personally affronted/insulted by something/someone but not directly dealing with your feelings around this. Like feeling insulted your honour was called into question. It's our unconscious minds covert attack on another to get them back because we feel bad/hurt/angry/upset etc. An unconscious 'f@#* you!'

Like someone writing a list of names and you being unhappy about being on the list, so you scrub your name off instead of addressing your concerns to the person directly.

The real clue with passive aggressive behaviour is it leaves the other person feeling awful because you were not able to deal directly with feeling upset/angry about something. It's a sneaky kind of aggression, dirty fighting.

Does that help explain it more?
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« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2015, 01:23:44 PM »

No, passive aggression can be things like insisting that an unnecessary routine or procedure be followed even in trivial transactions, like asking for the apology for instance. The other person is left with a yucky feeling of just being sucker punched, like i was.

Passive aggressive behaviour is largely unconscious and can stem from feeling personally affronted/insulted by something/someone but not directly dealing with your feelings around this. Like feeling insulted your honour was called into question. It's our unconscious minds covert attack on another to get them back because we feel bad/hurt/angry/upset etc. An unconscious 'f@#* you!'

Like someone writing a list of names and you being unhappy about being on the list, so you scrub your name off instead of addressing your concerns to the person directly.

The real clue with passive aggressive behaviour is it leaves the other person feeling awful because you were not able to deal directly with feeling upset/angry about something. It's a sneaky kind of aggression, dirty fighting.

Does that help explain it more?

Somewhat... .but that is what I don't get about it.  How someone else's feeling affects the label of my behavior.

And... .there is an assumption in there that I don't say what I mean.  If I wanted to curse at her... .I would have... .but I would have considered that rude and uncalled for... .over the top in that situation. 

I asked for what I wanted... .no more... .no less... .

Here is the thing... .I was affronted... .and I presented her with the remedy... .let her know. 

My understanding (perhaps flawed) of passive aggressive would be to agree to give her the money back and then cancel the appointment a couple times... .or be late... .but claim it was for another reason.

So... .I would appear all nice and fuzzy to her... .yet try to treat her nasty... .on the sly... .

If my behavior was passive aggressive (for the sake of argument)... .then what would my example behavior be called?

Still trying to wrap my head around this thing... .

FF

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« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2015, 01:24:36 PM »

FF,

Like you, I tend to be direct and unafraid of stating my opinion. I ran a successful company that sold products throughout the US for over 15 years and had several employees who worked for me. I understand chain of command.

That said, you are starting a new job and there's only one chance to make a first impression.

My feeling is that you use your military background, particularly your position of power, as an excuse for not using your emotional intelligence at times.

Had this exchange with the stroller woman been my only experience of you and had I not known more of you from reading your highly compassionate and understanding replies to other members, I would have written you off as a narcissistic jerk and not wanted to learn any more about you.

Even in your responses to several members, you continue to defend your position. Fine. We know where you stand. However, you don't seem to show the slightest capability of truly taking in our feedback, other than being an "interesting" perspective that you disagree with.
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2015, 01:32:45 PM »

FF, here's a quote from you on another thread:

"I've said it other places on here... but one of the earth shattering concepts that I learned during family therapy last summer (over year ago) was to not take things personally.

Now I feel a bit sheepish that I never knew that... or considered that before... ."

Maybe it's time to extend that awareness out of the context of your family to the world at large.

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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2015, 01:39:56 PM »

This is a timely incident (and thread) for you, formflier.

Not only are you re-starting your career, but you will need to monitor your relationship with your wife as it impacts your new position.

Do you have your own therapist, just for you? Now might be the time.
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2015, 02:41:40 PM »

  However, you don't seem to show the slightest capability of truly taking in our feedback, other than being an "interesting" perspective that you disagree with.

This is where I am at now... .if I had a time machine.

Her text to me

I would have asked for clarification

If she stayed with the tone... .most likely would not have responded to her again

If she was conciliatory... .would have offered the $30 back and dropped the rest.

That's where I'm at now with it.




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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2015, 03:16:40 PM »

I consider it fortunate to have a T who turns the mirror on me ( and a co-dependency group who does that as well). It is uncomfortable when this happens, but it is done in caring- a different kind of caring than a friend who would say to me " yeah, you were right, that woman was rude to you"

We take a stand that when something in someone else bothers us in some way, it is a message to us about something about us. Otherwise, it would not have resulted in our reacting to it. I would be willing to bet that if that woman texted you and said " You are a pink elephant and you sold me a broken space ship" you'd not consider this an insult to your honor. You'd be thinking, "this woman needs to see a doctor and get evaluated".

However, what this woman said really may have had just as little to do with you as if you were a pink elephant. She knows nothing about you, other than that she paid $30 for a broken stroller. You could be running a racket selling broken stuff for all she knows. The story she had in her head, and which reflected her fears was her own story that she made up from a small amount of evidence she had, but it really was not enough for her to say anything real about you.

What made this about you? YOU made it about you and then you reacted to it by putting her in the position of having to apologize to get her money back- and you justified your own story by her behavior.

But you don't know this woman. It is your story that she insulted your honor, but she may have had all kinds of circumstances that had nothing to do with your honor as a reason for saying what she said.

Look at these two statements

If she stayed with the tone... .most likely would not have responded to her again

If she was conciliatory... .would have offered the $30 back and dropped the rest.

You are justifying your own behavior according to what you think she should have done.  The topic of co-dependency has been raised here, and I am not making some kind of diagnosis here ( that is not my role) but the heart of co-dependency is looking at our actions from the viewpoint of what someone else did or should have or would have done.

The opposite of that is acting according to our core values. It may be your core value to insist that others respect your honor, but that isn't what makes someone honorable. Honor is internal. It is acting according to our core values no matter what anyone else thinks or says. What makes your honor (co)dependent on others honoring or apologizing to you? If you know you are honorable, and God knows you are, then what someone says doesn't change that.

I, and it seems others here, think you are an honorable guy. Maybe this is why we are responding in this way. You don't need a total stranger's apology to be honorable.
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« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2015, 03:34:47 PM »

I, and it seems others here, think you are an honorable guy. Maybe this is why we are responding in this way. You don't need a total stranger's apology to be honorable.

I agree... I see that point of view. 

But I think your point is a bit off... .

If she had texted that you are a pink elephant... .you sold me a broken spaceship... .give me my $30 back

I wouldn't have given her $30 back... any more than I gave it in the situation I was actually in.

This is a business transaction (to me) that was over... .not an extended personal relationship that I hope to continue.

I am basically laying out my thinking... .my negotiating strategy my moves... .rather than justifying my actions.

I considered her proposal... .such as it was (suggestion... .whatever... .but my assumption was she wanted her money back... .)

And I clearly sent back a counter proposal that she could consider... with a minimum amount of assumptions.

I'm fine that she didn't accept.

I would not have been fine letting someone talk like that to me... .and handing over $30.  It's up to me to protect myself from things I'm not fine with... .therefore... .I took matters into my own hand... .and laid out for her how this could work. 

She is free to reject.  She is my equal... .I am hers.  I can't force her to do anything... just as she can't force me to do anything.

I feel like I'm rambling a bit now... will come back to this in a bit.

FF
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« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2015, 03:38:03 PM »

FF, I just want to jump in here and say that I do not see even an smidge of passive aggressive behavior in your responses to that woman.  IMO, *she* was (very much so) and tried to use emotional blackmail to play the victim.  Unfortunately, IMO, far too many people today will fall back on this type of behavior to cover up their own mistakes (in this case, negligence).

I see the part where you required an apology before giving her the refund as you being a harda*s.  Not manipulative at all.  Not necessarily right but certainly not passive aggressive.   

Her behavior is the definition of PA and emotional blackmail. 

I do not really know you or your story as I read and post mainly on the Coping board, but to me, as someone who barely knows you, you come across as a stand up guy who tolerates little BS and can take a very hard line on it.  I am the same way in many situations, especially work ones, and have had to struggle to see it in my own exchanges.  That's why I have been following this thread so closely.  You wading through multiple pages of responses here has helped me to shed a little light on my own hard-a*s-ness.  (I am impressed with your patience here as you have already stated a while ago that you would have done things differently.)

Thanks!   Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2015, 03:40:06 PM »

Another angle is that you say you are a Christian, ff. What about Jesus' advice on turning the other cheek?

You're so eager to salvage your honor, but didn't you behave dishonorably in that you kept the money and the purchaser felt ripped off? In doing so, you confirmed her worst impression of you. I know you're moving to another area, but what if you had sold this after the move and it turned out that this woman was the wife of a superior at your new placement? You just never know how these things can affect your reputation, a reputation you're so eager to defend.

If you had returned the money and she returned the stroller without having made a big deal about it by asking for a "sincere apology" then you could have seen if the stroller was truly broken. If it wasn't, you could have sold it again. If it was, you could have repaired it.

She was ready to extend the olive branch to you by calling it an "oversight" and offering to make the return with no hard feelings.

Yet, you posted this exchange and asked if this community thought she was a pwBPD. My first reading of the exchange of texts was with that idea in mind and she came across poorly. Yet when I reread the texts a few hours later, my opinion changed dramatically.

I thought she was passionately protective of her children and that her response was poor in that she made assumptions that you wouldn't take the stroller back and that you were thoughtless about selling broken children's items. I agree, that was uncalled for.

But, the honorable and Christian way to deal with her would have been to refund her money and take back the stroller. Done deal.

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« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2015, 03:42:35 PM »

 you come across as a stand up guy who tolerates little BS and can take a very hard line on it. 

without apology... .I might ad!  

Welcome to the discussion!  

I've got several more responses to make... .but at the moment I just took D5s temp... 100.2... .not good.

The hard a$$ is softening a bit... .trying to care for her... .

FF
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« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2015, 03:54:11 PM »

Another angle is that you say you are a Christian, ff. What about Jesus' advice on turning the other cheek?

Also guidance to tell someone when they are out of line... .offended... .in the wrong... .etc etc.

If you don't "win them" over... .

Bring several people with you next time... .

If you don't "win them" over then you take it before the church.

That is one of the reasons I started down that path... .

It's not always the person that is bringing the "allegation" or stating the offense that is right.  The purpose of bringing others along and ultimately having it decided by the church is to evaluate both sides and see if there is Biblical error.

FF
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« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2015, 03:58:26 PM »

But, the honorable and Christian way to deal with her would have been to refund her money and take back the stroller. Done deal.

Tolerance of sin is very close to acceptance... .I'm going to state this very generally... since I haven't read those passages in a while... .but when someone sins (or potentially sins) there is a responsibility to "call them on it" to "win back a brother"  (again... .I'm trying to give the general idea... .I swear... .I'll move this back up on my Bible study list! ) 

The lady was "apparently" making false accusations against me... .bearing false witness... . 

Not something to let go lightly... .

FF
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« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2015, 04:01:09 PM »

but didn't you behave dishonorably in that you kept the money and the purchaser felt ripped off? In doing so, you confirmed her worst impression of you. 

No... I don't think I did.

Not sure how honor... .another persons feelings... .and my wallet are connected.

The transaction was done. 

If I contacted her and told her I felt she had paid to little and I felt bad... .would anyone advise her to pay me more money to protect her honor... .or fix my feelings?

FF
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« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2015, 04:06:55 PM »

Do you have your own therapist, just for you? Now might be the time.

Yes... .but... .he moved... and I am moving.  We stay in touch... .and are trying to figure out a next good time to get together in person.

I'm looking forward to building a support system in my new place... .

FF
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« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2015, 06:31:53 PM »

You've got a lot of responsibilities and decisions to make, and a weekly visit with a person you really click with would be a great asset to you and your family and your co-workers as you go forward.

This thread? There are a lot of interesting thoughts, words and phrases in this thread. The one that resonates with me personally is "sucker punch." This thread takes me by surprise.
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« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2015, 06:33:39 PM »

FF, here's a quote from you on another thread:

"I've said it other places on here... but one of the earth shattering concepts that I learned during family therapy last summer (over year ago) was to not take things personally.

Now I feel a bit sheepish that I never knew that... or considered that before... ."

Maybe it's time to extend that awareness out of the context of your family to the world at large.

I was... .and still am... .OK with not taking things personally from the world at large.  Those aren't "personal" or "intimate" relationships.

I guess I should have been more clear in my "earth shattering" revelation... . That someone with who I had an intimate r/s with... .could say horrible things about me... .and it really not be about me.

I could process in my mind that someone that didn't know me... .could be talking out of their a$$ and saying things they don't know about me... .and go on my merry way.

But... .my wife knows me... .I believe (and she will sometimes say) that I'm a good ... loyal husband.  For her to say otherwise... .and be "making up" stories to support her notions... .well... .I took it personally... .and now I don't.

Still don't like it when I hear those things... .but I understand the dynamic going on with her... .

Hope this clarifies that... .

FF
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« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2015, 06:45:56 PM »

You've got a lot of responsibilities and decisions to make, and a weekly visit with a person you really click with would be a great asset to you and your family and your co-workers as you go forward.

This thread? There are a lot of interesting thoughts, words and phrases in this thread. The one that resonates with me personally is "sucker punch." This thread takes me by surprise.

I agree... .my take on having a T... .with which you have a good... established r/s (whatever the period of time you see them in)... .is that when things change... come up... .you are past the "getting to know you" stage of a T.

Funny... I didn't notice or pick up on "sucker punch" until you mentioned it.

What... .in particular... .takes you by surprise? 

I figured there would be some discussion about "odd" things we notice in interactions with others... .the way we look at the world now that we know about PDs and such.

I think it's interesting how it turned out... .the "lenses" with which we view the world... .and others in it.

A bit of head scratching on my part about the insistence of some that I was triggered... upset... that kinda thing...

I do appreciate everyone's input... .even if I didn't "grab" it and run with it... .or agree with it. 

More later... .turns out I have three kids with strep throat... .  Wife is out of town...

So... .on the day that I'm fielding congratulatory calls on new job... .I'm also picking up sick ones from school.  Place a couple key phone calls (relationship building) while driving D5 to doctor... .  That's multitasking for you... .  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Life was simpler... .when you just had to land the plane on the carrier deck... .at night... .bad weather... .maybe a mechanical problem with plane... .

An inconsolable D5 asking me why it hurts so bad... .that's hard work...

I don't know how single parents do it... .whew...

FF
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« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2015, 07:23:18 PM »

"Tolerance of sin is very close to acceptance... .I'm going to state this very generally... since I haven't read those passages in a while... .but when someone sins (or potentially sins) there is a responsibility to "call them on it" to "win back a brother" "


Not sure what her "sin" was, but if it was saying something rude then Hell must be quite overcrowded by now. 

Which reminds me of another Biblical quote: "He who is without sin can throw the first stone"... .

I'd bet that there isn't a single one of us here who has not said or done something rude... .or responded in ways we are proud of. But here on this thread we can learn to do better, and I say this for all of us.
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« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2015, 08:13:19 PM »

Not sure what her "sin" was, but if it was saying something rude then Hell must be quite overcrowded by now. 

Apparent... or "suggestive" false witness.  9th commandment.  A big enough deal to God to write it in stone.

The invitation... ."condition"... .or as some of liked to say on here "demand" for an apology... .would... .(in a biblical sense) be her chance to repent of what she did... .or clarify herself.

Which reminds me of another Biblical quote: "He who is without sin can throw the first stone"... .

An excellent  passage... .I believe often misused to say that only those without sin are able to "confront" sin in an attempt to win back someone that has sinned.  We all sin... .I sin... when convicted of that... .repent... confess... .ask forgiveness... etc etc.

But here on this thread we can learn to do better, and I say this for all of us.

Amen to that... .

FF

PS

I'm fine with lots of Biblical discussion... .I don't initiate it here because that's not my role here.  But... I'm fine discussing, responding to questions or points that people bring up.  These are my views, beliefs and faith... .I realize others have different views... .I'm good with that.
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« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2015, 08:48:12 PM »

I don't intend to make it a topic of threads either, but it came up as a topic of ethics. Actually, we can also see those quotes and commandments from different angles. False witness to me would be spreading lies/malicious gossip about someone, not saying what you are thinking about them to them in person.

The "throw the first stone" to me is about mercy and forgiveness, which is different than acceptance of bad behavior. If I expect my Maker to forgive me for being my imperfect self,  then I have to act forgiving to others.

But regardless, you seem comfortable with the ethics of your decision, while some of us are not. It has been an interesting discussion to see the different points of view. In the long run, we each have to live with our own decisions and make our peace about them, either with our own conscience or the Higher Power of our choosing, so to each his own.
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« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2015, 08:54:48 PM »

FF, I will be really bold and share my opinion unreservedly, as you have seen me do throughout this thread. It seems that a lot of us women are hoping that you'd show a bit of flexibility and compassion in your attitude toward the stroller lady. If I may speak for some of us, we have not seen that yet.

I sense that you equate honor with strength and holding firm to your position. That may have served you well as an officer in the military, but as a former executive in the private sector, I would advise you to be open to the opinions of others and really try them on, rather than considering them from a distance as "interesting" and an artifact of how they were raised differently.

I believe a key component of strength is flexibility. Like that old adage of the mighty oak breaking in the wind, while the willow bends, your replies on this thread seem to be very rigid and indicate a clinging to your position and refusal to see another side to your text exchange.

I think many of us were shocked by your attitude and have been surprised by your unwillingness to even entertain a different viewpoint. I certainly am. From your previous posts, I've seen a compassionate and understanding man. In this thread, I see a very defensive one.

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« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2015, 09:03:20 PM »

  False witness to me would be spreading lies/malicious gossip about someone, not saying what you are thinking about them to them in person.

Yep... there seems to be a good bit of discussion... .different points of view on 9th... about what that really means.  Some will say it means lying... .

The "throw the first stone" to me is about mercy and forgiveness, which is different than acceptance of bad behavior. If I expect my Maker to forgive me for being my imperfect self,  then I have to act forgiving to others.   

To be clear... .I have forgiven this lady... .no issues there.  But we are not reconciled... . 

Some people combine those processes... .I don't... .I see them as entirely separate...

I can see forgiveness without reconciliation... .but... .hard pressed to figure out how to reconcile without forgiveness.

FF
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« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2015, 09:06:03 PM »

Staff only

Thanks all for participating. The topic of discussion has reached it's post limit and is now locked. You are welcome with starting a new or similar topic of discussion. Thanks.
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