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Author Topic: I stopped by without calling---made him feel engulfed?  (Read 738 times)
shatra
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« on: August 22, 2015, 10:19:09 PM »

Recently my pwBPD left me and told me I will "find someone better than" him.    I am unsure if this is the final ending or another break... .

   Yesterday I needed my CDs that were in his apartment-----I stopped by early before he left for work and rang the doorbell... .he got upset and said I should have called first "as a courtesy"... .he said anyone else he knows would have called first and not just shown up.

  It's true that it's not his habit to have anyone just drop by, and I can see the courtesy part.  I wonder if he had such a strong reaction also because he felt "engulfed" by this?   I guess most people would not have liked this, but he reacted very strongly.  I validated to him that he was upset and I apologized

Shatra
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2015, 10:26:30 PM »

Hi Shatra, may I ask why you didn't call first, knowing that it's not his thing welcoming drop-bys?

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shatra
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 10:40:03 PM »

No cell phone access.  I feel most people would be a bit uncomfortable with someone just dropping by before work, but he really reacted strongly
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 07:19:40 AM »

I wonder if he had such a strong reaction also because he felt "engulfed" by this?  

Sounds like a strong reaction to boundary infringement, thereby making it doubly clear that he doesn't welcome this sort of thing.

Did the interaction end on good terms?

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shatra
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 07:37:58 AM »

+++++

"he reacted very strongly.  I validated to him that he was upset and I apologized"
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 07:39:17 AM »

+++++

"he reacted very strongly.  I validated to him that he was upset and I apologized"

Was he accepting of your apology?
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 08:54:44 AM »

Shatra, my understanding of engulfment is more along the lines of behaviors involved while in an "active" relationship.  When the pwBPD is pulling you into their sphere, closer closer.  Once the feelings of engulfment manifest, push comes into play.

In this instance, I believe it was a boundary issue.  Could be wrong, but get the sense that he felt disrespected and that's why he had such a strong reaction.

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 09:34:36 AM »

In this instance, I believe it was a boundary issue.  Could be wrong, but get the sense that he felt disrespected and that's why he had such a strong reaction.

I think 123Phoebe has it figured out.

I have always thought of engulfment as them "loosing themselves" in the r/s.  It is sort of like overwhelmed.  Been a bit since I've thought of that.

Can you give us some word by word of how the apology went and was accepted?  That might shed some more light on his state of mind.

Anything else you have over there at his place?

FF
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shatra
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 03:02:43 PM »

Can you give us some word by word of how the apology went and was accepted?  That might shed some more light on his state of mind.Anything else you have over there at his place?

    ------From what I've read,  for BPs engulfment = the opposite of abandonment fear; the non is getting too close for comfort and the BP pushes away to get more space.

My apology was--- "Sorry about dropping by last week---I didn't think it would be a problem"

Him---"It's never a problem. You're always welcome---Just call first.  Even my brother calls before he comes over. I always called before I went to your apartment".

----Yes there are a couple of other stereo items at his apartment that he is currently using.
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 03:09:31 PM »

 

That is/was a good interaction... .

Are you going to take him up on his offer?

FF
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shatra
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2015, 03:22:52 PM »

Thanks, but it didn't feel like  a good interaction.  He was bothered by my not calling first, and we are not together. It felt like more BPD stuff---saying in the same discussion "I hope you'll find someone better than me" after saying "maybe we'll just take a break for now"... .saying he was upset about my not calling before coming by (which is understandable, and I would say even most

non -BPD's would be bothered by what I did)  and then saying "you're welcome anytime". I certainly don't feel welcome.
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2015, 03:34:59 PM »

 

OK... .I see what you are looking at.

A lot of the things that we take as offensive or bad... .are fears they are expressing... .very badly.

"You will find someone better than me... "... .is most likely him thinking he is not good enough.

It's about him... .not you.

If you want a future with him... .call him... .take him up on his offer. 

FF
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2015, 06:14:44 AM »

I just came across this post and it's the same thing that happened to me with my ex girlfriend. I just realized she is most likely Bpd. About a year ago we were arguing and I stopped by to talk without calling her. She completely flipped and said its disrespectful and like stalking. That led to silent treatment for weeks, of coursecatbhe time I didn't know she was BPD. Now almost a year later she breaks up over phone stating I'm a good looking guy and I should go out with younger woman. I must say after being on this site for a few days and reading different posts, it all makes sense to me.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2015, 07:17:58 AM »

I just came across this post and it's the same thing that happened to me with my ex girlfriend. I just realized she is most likely Bpd. About a year ago we were arguing and I stopped by to talk without calling her. She completely flipped and said its disrespectful and like stalking. That led to silent treatment for weeks, of coursecatbhe time I didn't know she was BPD. Now almost a year later she breaks up over phone stating I'm a good looking guy and I should go out with younger woman. I must say after being on this site for a few days and reading different posts, it all makes sense to me.

Hey Bigmd, if it's all making sense to you after a few days then you're a really fast learner

A big part of making a "success" of a relationship, any relationship, is having the ability to empathize; it's huge!

Your girlfriend had a really strong reaction to you stopping by without calling her.  Could you get on board with that?  How it might've made her feel disrespected?  And not taking the stalker part personally, all the while believing that this is truly how she felt about it?

In the Lessons there are communication tools, that are worth their weight in gold.  Communicating in a way that she really feels heard and understood, that you care about her feelings as well as your own.

When you get a chance, read through them and hone your skills Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)


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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2015, 07:34:37 AM »

Thanks Phoebe. I have learned to not take this personally although it still hurts and I care about her. I am hoping she does contact.
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2015, 11:11:54 AM »

Some people you just get a sense that "dropping by" without calling would be ok, even a welcome surprise. I never ever got that sense from BPDbf so I never tried. I also noticed 99% of the time if I called him, I got his voicemail. So I let him do all the contacting now - best I can do is try to be available when he does.
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shatra
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2015, 03:41:25 PM »

Bigmd wrote---

we were arguing and I stopped by to talk without calling her. She completely flipped and said its disrespectful

----- Sounds like maybe she felt "controlled"---you decided to stop by and didn't call first (I did as well)

Jessica84---

   Sounds like control also---you had the sense he didn't want unannounced visits, he would talk to you on the phone when he was available (if he picked up your call you would be a bit more "in control"---if he doesn't answer and calls you back when he wishes to, he has more of the control
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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2015, 05:39:40 PM »

Hi shatra,

You're in a really tough place -- he has ended the relationship, and it sounds like you want to stay in his life. It also sounds like he has a value here, and is asking you to respect his boundary, separate from whether this is a break up or part of a push/pull cycle.

Do you feel that your actions, or reactions to his behavior, might be different depending on whether the relationship is over or not?

We have an article on the site that helped me have empathy for what my pwBPD might be experiencing when our relationship was unstable.

Excerpt
The decision to end a relationship can be traumatic, chaotic, and filled with contradictory emotions. There are also specific feelings, attitudes, and dynamics associated with whether one is in the role of the initiator or the receiver of the decision to breakup. For example, it is not unusual for the initiator to experience fear, relief, distance, impatience, resentment, doubt, and guilt. Likewise, when a party has not initiated the divorce, they may feel shock, betrayal, loss of control, victimization, decreased self esteem, insecurity, anger, a desire to "get even," and wishes to reconcile.

The emotional breaking up process ... .is confounded by each party being at different stages in the emotional process while in the same stage of the physical process.

It is also quite normal to do different things to try to create distance from the former partner ... .Unfortunately, this distancing often takes the form of fault finding.

I think it's important to understand why you sought him out before work, without calling ahead -- and how you are feeling right now, and how you think he might be feeling. It's so very hard when a partner wants to end a relationship and the other does not. I hope you are doing ok. 

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shatra
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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2015, 09:15:26 PM »

Lived n learned wrote

Do you feel that your actions, or reactions to his behavior, might be different depending on whether the relationship is over or not?

====Not sure what you mean?

It's important to understand why you sought him out before work, without calling ahead -- and how you are feeling right now, and how you think he might be feeling.

------Before work is when he would defiinitely be available. I didn't have cell phone access so didn't call him first.  Right now I am feeling confused, as he didn't give an actual reason for the breakup.  How is he feeling?  Probably irritated because I initiated the visit and he felt engulfed and controlled.

It's so very hard when a partner wants to end a relationship and the other does not.

-----Yes I am upset about it.  Yet confused----he sent me birthday flowers, out of the blue!

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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2015, 01:55:59 PM »

Lived n learned wrote

Do you feel that your actions, or reactions to his behavior, might be different depending on whether the relationship is over or not?

====Not sure what you mean?

Sorry, I re-read my sentence and agree it's not very clear   I meant, if the relationship is over, and he wants it to be over, and you accept that it's over, would you still show up at his home unannounced (knowing how he feels about people doing this)? I'm trying to understand how you are feeling about what is happening... .and what your goals are in terms of moving forward.
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2015, 02:09:12 PM »

My read is that Shatra doesn't know if it's over.  I do think we readers often jump too quickly to "he said it's over so it's over."  It's often more confusing and confused than that.  I know for myself, I have always had a very hard time following guidance that started with "he said it's over so it's over," because like Shatra's guy sending flowers, my ex's actions did not match his words, i.e., the more he said it was over, the more he acted like it was not.  On here we often are told to follow the actions not the words, and that can be confusing when the actions show more interest than the words.

That said, I think maybe a wiser way to frame that same advice is that when words and actions are not congruent it is always a sign that someone is building or maintaining an escape route.

Shatra, when did he send the flowers?
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2015, 03:37:44 PM »

I can attest to the "we're DONE!, it's OVER" thing. The first time it happened, I totally believed my boyfriend. He kept right on saying that up until about 18 months ago. Then he stopped.  In between the first time and him stopping, I caught on that it was him having a tantrum (disregulation) and within a couple of weeks, he was wanting to re-engage.

Now we have big arguments and he does nasty things, but he doesn't say he's done anymore. He more or less sits back and gives me ST, blocks me, and so on until he is sure he has me under him thumb.  ( he thinks) or I appear so mild and unruffled that he can say oh you FINALLY got control of yourself... and then back he comes.

We are not talking, because I am not willing to atm. That is another story.
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2015, 04:17:29 PM »

Lived learn wrote--

if the relationship is over, and he wants it to be over, and you accept that it's over, would you still show up at his home unannounced (knowing how he feels about people doing this)? I'm trying to understand how you are feeling about what is happening... .and what your goals are in terms of moving forward.

------I was feeling upset when I showed up.  I wasn't focusing on what his reaction would be. Now looking back, it was an engulfment (and I can understand why he would feel engulfed and controlled).  I also think he might have interpreted is as me wanting to reunite with him.

Patient and clear wrote---

Shatra doesn't know if it's over.  I do think we readers often jump too quickly to "he said it's over so it's over."  It's often more confusing and confused than that.

---------Yes I feel confused.  He told me "You'll find someone who is better for you than I am. Good luck with everything".  Which I feel hurt about, and sounds final.  Yet 2 days ago he sent me flowers. 

Daniell85 wrote---

I caught on that it (saying it's over) was him having a tantrum (disregulation) and within a couple of weeks, he was wanting to re-engage.

-----Yes, the push-pull is strong.  Sometimes they need to vent their anger, and temporarily express that it's over, to get some distance. In my case I feel sad because it has been many months since the unexplained breakup, and last month he told me I'll find someone "better" than him.  I don't have much hope in my case.
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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2015, 07:58:00 AM »

------I was feeling upset when I showed up.  

Shatra,

How are things?  I've been away for a bit... .catching up on some threads... .  I hope you are doing OK!


Anyway... .a hard lesson for me to learn... .and one I should have used in my home last night... .is that when I am feeling upset (regardless of why)... .engaging with the pwBPD traits in my life is not a good idea.

If she is obviously upset about something... .or being "BPDish"... .even worse of an idea.

One thing that may help you is to focus on a "goal" of each interaction that you have with him... .sometimes the goal is just to have a pleasant conversation... .that is fine.

But... .if somewhere in your goal you find yourself talking or thinking about fixing or "dealing with" an emotional upset that you are having... .another big level of care is called for.

Not saying don't do it... .but think about is SET appropriate... .or DEARMAN... .think it through... .or wait until your emotions are lower.

Looking forward to catching up!

FF

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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2015, 10:04:58 AM »

Shatra,

I also replied to your post in undecided.

When thinking about your posts, I think of boundaries. When someone crosses our boundaries, we can feel imposed on, and feel engulfed- even if we do not have BPD.

While people consider that pw BPD have poor boundaries, we think of weak or no boundaries. However, this can go either way. Boundaries can be weak, and they can be too strong. Neither is probably a healthy way to relate to people.

If your neighbor left all the doors and windows open all the time in his house, you'd probably think that is odd. He isn't taking steps to protect himself or his family from intruders, bad weather, ... .If your neighbor built a giant brick wall around his house guarded by vicious  dogs that attacked any intruders, then you would probably think that was going overboard.

When we talk about having healthy boundaries, that means our own, and also being able to recognize the boundaries in others- whatever they may be. An emotionally healthy person might think twice about becoming good friends with the neighbor who has no boundaries. It would not feel comfortable to them. They will also decide to leave the other neighbor alone- because that neighbor is clearly sending the message that he does not want people to intrude on him. Even if the person doesn't agree with that neighbor, or wants to reach out to him, he can see, that if he does, it may not go very well.

If that person walked in that house uninvited and got hurt, who is responsible for that hurt- the person who ignored the boundary or the person who put up the boundary? It may be unreasonable for someone to attack an intruder who means no harm, but one also needs to recognize that if they intrude, they may get hurt, and decide whether or not to take that risk,

Your ex may have strong boundaries, and he may be upset that he was intruded on, even if you think it is over reacting.
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shatra
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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2015, 02:51:43 PM »

Notwendy wrote--

  An emotionally healthy person might think twice about becoming good friends with the neighbor who has no boundaries. It would not feel comfortable to them. They will also decide to leave the other neighbor alone- because that neighbor is clearly sending the message that he does not want people to intrude on him. Even if the person doesn't agree with that neighbor, or wants to reach out to him, he can see, that if he does, it may not go very well.

---I wouldn't decide not to be friends with people who have either very strong or very weak boundaries---I would accept that they have unusual traits

If that person walked in that house uninvited and got hurt, who is responsible for that hurt- the person who ignored the boundary or the person who put up the boundary? It may be unreasonable for someone to attack an intruder who means no harm, but one also needs to recognize that if they intrude, they may get hurt, and decide whether or not to take that risk,

----I wrote in my earlier post: "(and I can understand why he would feel engulfed and controlled). "

Your ex may have strong boundaries, and he may be upset that he was intruded on, even if you think it is over reacting.

---Yes i think it's overreacting since he still brought it up 6 weeks later, and said he was panic-stricken.  Like many people with BPD, he is extremely reactive to either abandonment or engulfment.
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2015, 02:58:49 PM »

FF wrote--

Anyway... .a hard lesson for me to learn... .and one I should have used in my home last night... .is that when I am feeling upset (regardless of why)... .engaging with the pwBPD traits in my life is not a good idea.  If she is obviously upset about something... .or being "BPDish"... .even worse of an idea.

---Yes, since "feelings = facts for them", if I bring up a topic when he is dysregulated, he has a totally different view (facts) about it than if I bring it up when he is well.

One thing that may help you is to focus on a "goal" of each interaction that you have with him... .sometimes the goal is just to have a pleasant conversation... .that is fine.

---That is a great idea. I feel impatient and compulsive at times, and want to "settle the matter" right away, but you are right, I can just focus on a small goal for an interaction and not "resolve everything at once"

But... .if somewhere in your goal you find yourself talking or thinking about fixing or "dealing with" an emotional upset that you are having... .another big level of care is called for.

---Not sure what this means.   Wanting him to fix my emotional upset?  Big level of care? Not sure what this means
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2015, 09:40:16 AM »

 

So... .if you are wanting to discuss something with him that you are mad about... .let's say "he made you mad".

You would want to prep a lot ahead of time... .get a dearman or a couple of "sets" ready and also have a clearly defined exit strategy before you start the conversation.

Because... .if you are still "upset" about it... .the pwBPD could derail the entire thing pretty quick... .with rabbit trails... .or who knows what.

Best bet is to wait until calm... .but that is not always possible.  Depends on the subject.

FF
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2015, 05:18:39 AM »

The important thing about boundaries is not the logic of them, it's about the person's perception of having them respected, ie having them acknowledged. Even if someone complying with them is to the detriment of the person with boundary.

Eg. I don't want someone telling me how to do xyz, even if it means I make a mess trying to do it my way. That's my choice and my right to choose.

Boundaries are about a right to personal choice
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