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Author Topic: having that same old argument  (Read 512 times)
babyducks
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« on: August 23, 2015, 05:40:11 AM »

hi guys,  I need some help.  my partner and I are having that same old argument,  the one we've had about 8 zillion times before and I need news ways to handle it.  any and all advice welcome because I am down to banging my head against the wall.

Here is the back story.

I come from a small family and most of my family has passed away.  I am especially close with one family member, a cousin.  Cuz and my partner despise each other.  Right now I don't dare put them in the same room with each other.   Cuz won't mention my partner's name, won't include her in things, thinks I am totally making a horrible decision to continue this relationship based on our past rocky behavior.   That's her opinion and I don't debate it with her.

My partner thinks my cousin is way too important in my life and has tried to put limits on how much contact I have with Cuz.   She is perpetually upset by the situation.  I understand that.   I validate as much as I can.  It is difficult to have a family member so vehemently opposed to our relationship.  I find it difficult too.   

My partner appears to think there is some competition going on for my attention and affection.  She has said, very intensely, "this is a triangle, I don't care what you call it".       I try to see it from her point of view with only marginal success.  Since learning about BPD I have been careful to validate the valid and pay attention to trigger points.

So what fired the Cuz argument up again is this.   My partner is moving in September, it's been discussed.  She picked September even though I said that was not a good time for me, it was already over booked with events that I could not get out of.   She happened to pick the week of the Jewish High Holy days to move,  which is like the worst possible week for me.   And yes she knew that.   Think about trying to move during Christmas week.

I said I would help but have trouble taking time off from work because I am already taking time for Rosh HaShannah and Yom Kippur.   I felt that was a reasonable response.

Fast forward to this week.   My Cuz shattered a tooth and is going for oral surgery either Monday or Tuesday.  I am going to take time off of work to drive.   

And my partner immediately went to,  you are taking time off to help Cuz but you won't take time off to help me and that's not fair.    Her feelings are hurt.   And "once again you are supporting Cuz and not supporting me".   Which is not exactly true, I am helping with the move, I am just not taking a day off of work I am helping on the weekends because of the holiday schedule.

So... .  help me unravel this.

Am I being unfair?   Am I putting my Cousin's needs above my Partner's?   Part of me is thinking sheeesh it's a shattered tooth, I am going to drive to the oral surgeon, sit in the waiting room, hang around for a bit to make sure things are okay and then go back to work, what is the big freaking deal, and yes I know better than to say that.

How do I handle this?   I am getting really fatigued with the constant warfare coming from both directions.   Do I push back gently but firmly against both of them for disrespecting my decisions?   Or do I just let it go and hope they eventually get tired of arguing with no one on this topic?

'ducks


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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 06:04:38 AM »

Hello babyducks,

With the Karpman drama triangle fixated in my thoughts from another thread, there absolutely is the possibility for that particular dynamic to play out here. Your gf has tuned into it  Smiling (click to insert in post)

It doesn't sound to me that you are caught in it given what your post asks so I want to clarify what you want.

Are you happy taking cuz to dentist?

Is it reasonable and manageable for you to help gf move on the days you have chosen?

If these are things you want to do, then good, there will be no hidden triggers for you.

You asked about 'pushing back' and yes I feel that holding true to what you want and what feels right for you is the way to go. The other alternative will be emotionally exhausting and I believe is likely to continue.

How would you state your position firmly but gently to them?

What will you do if clarifying what you want doesn't stop either of them putting pressure on you around these issues?
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 06:27:28 AM »

Is it fair may depend on whether your cousin and your partner are in the same game. Are you sleeping with your cousin? Is not sleeping with your cousin unfair to your cousin?

Or is this line of thinking unfair to the participants?

Instead of engaging on the fairness micro level I would stress the larger differences. There seems to be some triggering going on. I would also think more about boundaries what I share between the two sides. Not hiding stuff but thinking where more privacy could help.
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 07:46:02 AM »

The issue over taking time off- your reasons to do this and not do this are being confused in to one issue.

You are willing to take time off to help your partner move. You are just not willing to do it during the High Holidays. This has nothing to do with your feelings for your partner. It is about your core value- your religion. This is a boundary. You are not willing to compromise your religion and you care about your partner. However your partner is personalizing this. She may be disappointed but in a world where feelings are facts- this becomes "you don't care enough about me to take time off"

Your cousin has an urgent medical situation. This is not planned - like a move is- and it involves her health. You are willing to take time off to help her. You are likely willing to do this for your partner too- but she can't conclude this as she now believes you are not willing to take time off for her.

In your value system- a health care need would take priority over work- and even a religious holiday, as in Judaism, the health of a human takes priority over religious observance. This is part of your core values. You would choose to help both your partner and your cousin during this time if they needed you for a health related need but not a move. Your know this but your partner does not focus on the distinction between the two situations.

Believing that it is TRUE that you are willing to take time off for your cousin and not willing to take time off for her - she concludes that it is also true that you care more about your cousin than her, and uses the incident to prove it.

You can't unprove this to her if she chooses to believe it. However you do not have to compromise your core values for her beliefs. You can validate her feelings, and act according to your values. She may not like it, but you mean no harm to her. I don't think this is something a conversation would fix. Compromising your values might placate her, but I think it would be disrespectful of yourself if you did so.
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 09:44:47 AM »

Not hiding stuff but thinking where more privacy could help.

So... .Babyducks.  How did your gf find out about the shattered tooth... and you taking time off work?

I've got some ideas... .but need a few more details.

"pushing back" might be satisfying... .and could be effective... .but that is putting more energy into the argument.

Lately... .I've been trying to think about taking "energy" out of issues... .and let them just sort of fade away. 

FF
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 10:41:35 AM »

Taking time off from my place of business is a bit of a boondoggle.   I'm currently being "asked "  to work upwards of 20 hours of extra time a week.   And any time I take off I have to make up. 

My schedule has been to work 12 days straight, take 2 off and start again.   

I told my partner I was taking the time off.  It was appropriate because it's going to impact my schedule for the next couple of days ato least.

And why would I hide it?
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 11:09:06 AM »

I told my partner I was taking the time off.  It was appropriate because it's going to impact my schedule for the next couple of days ato least.

And why would I hide it?

First of all... .wow... .that's quite a schedule.  Now I'm interested in learning more about what you do!  I really enjoy getting to know people on here.


Babyducks,

Zero criticism intended here... .I'm describing a change in my thinking that might help you.  I bought into "hide nothing" in a marriage (Christian perspective)... .be one... .all of that. 

Since dealing with BPD traits in the r/s... .I've had to think a lot about "hiding" and "privacy".

I think an0ught was going down this road as well (correct?)

To answer your last question... .your would keep details of your r/s "private" from your partner... .because you respect (but do not agree) with her feelings about your Cuz.

Same thing with Cuz... .you won't make a habit of speaking to her about your partner... .but... I suspect this angle will be harder... because it would seem much more likely for you to want to mention a wonderful outing you had with your partner to anyone that would listen... .rather than... ."hey... .I was having lunch with my cousin and... ."

Still... .the basic theory can go both ways.

What do you think? 

FF

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 04:35:06 PM »

.

Are you happy taking cuz to dentist?

It's kind of a don't care, sweetheart.  Just now it's very hard to get time off from my place of work.  We are chasing a schedule deadline which we are likely not going to make.   Getting anytime off looks like a mixed blessing.  I'll be thrilled to be away from the job for a while and cranky about what I have to do to make up the time away.

.

Is it reasonable and manageable for you to help gf move on the days you have chosen?

Oh yeah that actually worked out really really well for me.   I can help with the move and be relaxed and not rushed.

.

If these are things you want to do, then good, there will be no hidden triggers for you.

You asked about 'pushing back' and yes I feel that holding true to what you want and what feels right for you is the way to go. The other alternative will be emotionally exhausting and I believe is likely to continue.

How would you state your position firmly but gently to them?

What will you do if clarifying what you want doesn't stop either of them putting pressure on you around these issues?

Nice question.  I think you are right.  This is going to continue.   I can push back with my cousin by saying something to the effect of 'look my partner is in my life to stay, I know you have concerns, it would be surprising if you didn't but I would appreciate a little more support and acknowledgement of what is going on in my life'.

with my partner I don't know,... .I think NotWendy had insight there when she said I can't Not Prove this to her.

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 04:46:15 PM »

Is it fair may depend on whether your cousin and your partner are in the same game. Are you sleeping with your cousin? Is not sleeping with your cousin unfair to your cousin?

Or is this line of thinking unfair to the participants?

Instead of engaging on the fairness micro level I would stress the larger differences. There seems to be some triggering going on. I would also think more about boundaries what I share between the two sides. Not hiding stuff but thinking where more privacy could help.

Hi anOught,

I think I am confused by your message.   And I would really like to 'get it'  .   Dang it.  Could you explain more?

FWIW,  my cousin and I are pretty much the sole remaining members of our family.  We have been through a lot together and are a lot closer than your average run of the mill cousins.   Probably more like sisters.   For sure the most significant person in my life up until I met my partner was my cousin.   

I am aware that role is changing, and I also understand that 30 years of history and habit have some weight to them. 

I like what you said about engaging in fairness at the micro level.  I find that when this argument comes up I frequently bite on it.   And I am not sure why.

I will work on more privacy.  This time however, the dentist trip was going to impact my schedule so privacy wasn't a viable option.   

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 04:55:27 PM »

You can't unprove this to her if she chooses to believe it. However you do not have to compromise your core values for her beliefs. You can validate her feelings, and act according to your values. She may not like it, but you mean no harm to her. I don't think this is something a conversation would fix. Compromising your values might placate her, but I think it would be disrespectful of yourself if you did so.

Hi Notwendy,

Boy the line of the day is going to be I can't unprove this to her.   Thanks for that one.   Even if I attempt to prove/unprove, there is nothing for me down that road.   Cuz and I shared a very close relationship for a very long time and anything that gives any evidence of that seems to fire off this argument.   

Placating doesn't seem to be the way to go either because that will likely become a slippery slope quick.   If I placate my partner it will only reinforce that something 'unfair' was going on.   
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2015, 05:04:44 PM »

First of all... .wow... .that's quite a schedule.  Now I'm interested in learning more about what you do!  I really enjoy getting to know people on here.

Actually FF, you are probably one of the only people here who would understand if I said Hawkeye E-2D.

Still... .the basic theory can go both ways.

What do you think? 

Yup,  I try to minimize cross pollination as much as humanly possible with out giving myself hives.   But there are times, and this is one of them,  where I can only minimize so much.   If everyone is going to have heartburn if I talk about the other I won't do it just for the sake of casual conversation but I am also not willing to lie, obfuscate, or give myself heartburn trying to manage this situation for them.   If that makes any sense.   

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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2015, 07:30:25 PM »

You care deeply about two people who dislike each other, but caring about both of them isn't wrong. It is your partner who is making more out of your taking the time to help your cousin.

You are right that nothing you can do or say can disprove her "truth" that you will take time off for your cousin and not for her. It's a double bind. Explaining invalidates her feelings. Appeasing validates that you are "wrong".

Your core value is to help your cousin and attend High Holiday services, and doing that is acting according to your values. Her reaction/behavior is what it is.

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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2015, 08:40:54 PM »

You help people when you can and you don't when you can't, its not about prioritizing people, its simple time logistics. That is your reasoning,  simply state that and don't get into JADE to back it up.

Don't think of privacy and secrets, think confidentially as a good reason for not discussing other peoples business.
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2015, 11:25:38 PM »

 

What about more of a "hard" boundary... .a very even... firm... .

"I won't be discussing your concerns about the r/s any more.  She is the last person remaining in my family."

There is some JADE there... .the but sometimes... .the explanation lends weight... .provides... .ahhh haaa

How would that be received?

FF
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2015, 11:28:09 PM »

You don't have to unprove anything to anyone. What you do need to do is state that you are helping cuz because your core beliefs are that the health of a human, any human takes precedence. Make no mention of the move, as there is no comparison. Should your GF try to compare the two, repeat, in various ways, that you are helping cuz because your core beliefs are that the health of a human, any human takes precedence. Anything else is background noise.

As to cuz not understanding, what worked for me was explaining to people that I understand their concern and appreciate it. I am not blind to the issues, but I consider my partner in my life to stay. I am grateful t have someone like you to love and support me.
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2015, 04:53:10 AM »

You care deeply about two people who dislike each other, but caring about both of them isn't wrong. It is your partner who is making more out of your taking the time to help your cousin.

You are right Notwendy,   that is exactly how it feels/looks to me.   It's very BPD.   To my partner I am abandoning her by leaving to care for someone else.  I am hurting her feelings by not meeting her needs and she is hypersensitive to that.   She has been in tears about this dental trip.   

In my pre-knowledge of BPD days I would have really been reacting to my partners emotional storm and really adding fuel to the fire.

I am still reacting some,  I am just so tired of this argument.   More walking away and less conversation.

I'm feeling frustrated.
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2015, 04:56:19 AM »

"I won't be discussing your concerns about the r/s any more.  She is the last person remaining in my family."

That could work.    Well, it could work for me  Smiling (click to insert in post)

If this comes up again I will try a variant of it.
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2015, 05:29:27 AM »

"I won't be discussing your concerns about the r/s any more.  She is the last person remaining in my family."

That could work.    Well, it could work for me  Smiling (click to insert in post)

If this comes up again I will try a variant of it.

Hi babyducks,

I think it's a matter of getting really comfy in your own skin.  When I'm faced with some moments of, you have got to be kidding me... .  a song by Bob Dylan always pops in my mind:  Don't think Twice, It's All Right, particularly:

"I'm a-thinking and a-wonderin' walking down the road

I once loved a woman, a child I'm told

I gave her my heart but she wanted my soul

But don't think twice, it's all right"

So, in the context of my relationship:

I love this person, he has immature emotions.

I am not going to give myself away, who I am at my core, to appease...

It's not at all alright, with me.

Then find a way to detach with love and stick to it.





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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2015, 08:40:35 AM »

I think Phoebe has a point about detaching. Of course it is hurtful to think someone we love feels we are abandoning or neglecting them. I used to be very reactive to these kinds of statements made to me.

But I had to hold on to the idea that , they are holding on to a feeling that they think is fact, then they see our actions of proof of it.

My H was making similar statements to me about things that I did, my interests, and using them as "proof" that I didn't care about him.  I used to cut back on them, or change my plans to try to prove to him that I did care about him.

There were several problems that happened as a result of my behavior. One is that, since the story was his, no matter how much "evidence" I showed him that his story wasn't true, he didn't see that as evidence because he believed it was true and continued to find evidence to support his feelings. So the accusations kept coming, with different reasons.

"You bought the kids' favorite foods at the grocery store and you didn't buy mine"    - Then I would go to the store and buy his favorite foods to show him I care about him, but he didn't remember that. So the next time a friend might call, it was " You don't sound as excited to talk to me as you do to her"... .so then I would JADE that I had not talked to her in a long time and was surprised to hear from her, and so on.

The consequence of my behavior is that it gave his story power - power to make me feel bad, power to make me change my plans or take action to please him. It was very reinforcing - which meant that his behavior continued.

Ducks, as it is now, if I want to do something, and there is no reason not to do it- I just tell him what I am doing. I make time for both of us too. He doesn't like it. It was hard in the beginning. I remember being invited to something and telling them " Oh I couldn't do this, it would upset my H, and them saying " there is nothing wrong about this, you can go". Even my T had to push me to go. I have boundaries- about my relationship. I would not agree to go on anything that may violate my marriage vows, but like you, it was things like attending a group function, helping a friend, that it seemed I had to justify somehow. However, by going, and standing strong in the emotional storm, I stopped reinforcing the behavior. It happens less.

It takes two to continue the same old argument. Just go to services, take care of your cousin. Your partner may get upset, but over time, she may learn that her upset doesn't work for her.

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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2015, 02:44:53 PM »

It takes two to continue the same old argument. Just go to services, take care of your cousin. Your partner may get upset, but over time, she may learn that her upset doesn't work for her.

That is the critical piece... .the bolded part.

There are some that say "never JADE".  I am personally in the camp that for some issues... .you need to clearly state your truth once... .possibly ask if there are any questions about the way you feel (YOU ARE NOT ASKING FOR OPINIONS)... .and then cut the conversation.

Babyducks,

How does your partner respond to a solid SET? 

Is she able to listen to you talk for a minute or two without interrupting? 

How will she react at being asked if she has questions about your feelings?  Will she try to share her opinions as well?

Where I'm going with this is that I think you should do some prep work before saying something "prickly" to her about you will not be discussing... .arguing... (whatever you want to call it).

My guess is that set would be a good format... .with the T part being that you will not be discussing your partners concerns about your cuz anymore.

Then... .there is the what next... .?  Do you let that moment linger... .or try to move on to a different topic.  You know your partner best... .  You want her to hear it... .but then you want to move along to other things... preferably something positive.

FF

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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2015, 04:34:43 PM »

pwBPDs lack of sense causes them to "bump" you, when you react it proves they exist and have an effect on the world.

Hence your reactiviness is validation in itself for them... So they keep bumping, and you keep jumping.

The old arguments are simply the easiest "go to" method of achieving this
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2015, 05:59:13 PM »

My H was making similar statements to me about things that I did, my interests, and using them as "proof" that I didn't care about him.  I used to cut back on them, or change my plans to try to prove to him that I did care about him.

... .

Ducks, as it is now, if I want to do something, and there is no reason not to do it-

... .However, by going, and standing strong in the emotional storm, I stopped reinforcing the behavior. It happens less.

It takes two to continue the same old argument. Just go to services, take care of your cousin. Your partner may get upset, but over time, she may learn that her upset doesn't work for her.

Thanks NotWendy,  you've got a really good grasp of the situation.  And I agree with everything you said.   I am applying what I've learned here to the best of my ability.   I am getting a little reactive as what I am starting to think of as the Great Dental Debate roars on.    I am not arguing back.   I am not JADE-ing.   Well alright I did a little bit.   

My partner is really not letting this one go.   And I am wearing out. 
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2015, 06:12:12 PM »

It takes two to continue the same old argument. Just go to services, take care of your cousin. Your partner may get upset, but over time, she may learn that her upset doesn't work for her.

That is the critical piece... .the bolded part.

Yeah Form I know.   This isn't exactly my first rodeo.   Right now my partner is having some mild issues with hypomania.   She is also Bipolar.   Most of the day Saturday she was hypomanic, so she will respond to a SET but she is irritable and having trouble focusing.   Her temper has been flaring over small issues and she isn't well oriented to dates and times.  Getting her to land on a topic is iffy.   

Today the 'you aren't paying enough attention to me' and 'you aren't caring enough about my feelings' slide over onto the topic of a class I have coming up in January.   Anything that even appears to take me or my attention away from her is causing a reaction.

So I think waverider was on to something we he talked about the bumping.
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2015, 06:16:04 PM »

pwBPDs lack of sense causes them to "bump" you, when you react it proves they exist and have an effect on the world.

Hence your reactiviness is validation in itself for them... So they keep bumping, and you keep jumping.

The old arguments are simply the easiest "go to" method of achieving this

okay I think you are right waverider,  this feels like some kind of test... .like she is waiting for me to react in the 'proper'  way.   

what do I do?  just continue to validate what I can, go about my business and ignore the rest?
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2015, 06:41:36 PM »

Much like Notwendy's husband, mine too would use "things I did, my interests... .as proof that I didn't care about him." Often when he says something like that, he hangs his head and gets this "lost little boy" look.

Obviously this has been a pattern that has worked for him for a long time and it certainly got my attention, as a former caretaker and codependent. I'd try to reassure him, "Yes, I love you, even though I do X instead of spend time with you."

It never really worked to assuage him. So lately, my strategy has been one of stupidity and obliviousness when he pulls this. I completely ignore the request for pity and ask "Huh?" Or I change the subject. I try formflier's strategy of giving his hand a squeeze. Last night I actually giggled.

Most of the time he's immediately dropped it and once he tried to up the ante by insulting me, and I just played dumb, as though I didn't realize I'd been insulted.

I'm just trying anything to break the stimulus/response cycle. My husband is a quick learner and when it doesn't work, he drops it.

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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2015, 07:11:04 PM »

. So lately, my strategy has been one of stupidity and obliviousness when he pulls this. I completely ignore the request for pity and ask "Huh?"

stupidity and obliviousness I can do  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2015, 07:39:19 PM »

. So lately, my strategy has been one of stupidity and obliviousness when he pulls this. I completely ignore the request for pity and ask "Huh?"

stupidity and obliviousness I can do  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Taking the next step to explain, takes more effort for them, than the simple jab, so it is often dropped unless its a genuine issue
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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2015, 05:04:11 PM »

Hi Babyducks,

I agree with everything Notwendy said in her very logical, insightful post.  I am not sure how long you and your partner have been together, but in my 9 years with uBPDH, I've noticed a pattern in my relationships with others.  It seems that he finds fault with everybody I was close to in the past.  Some of those people were the ones with whom I felt the most relaxed, lighthearted and carefree.  I think our partners are jealous of quality time we spend with others, and perceive these folks as a threat.  I have ceased spending time with a lot of these former friends but there are a select few I've insisted on hanging on to.  I know if the time ever comes that H is no longer with me, these folks will still be there.  I think it's important that you remember that about your cousin and continue to be there for her, because she sounds like one of those folks in your life.
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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2015, 09:21:59 PM »

I think our partners are jealous of quality time we spend with others, and perceive these folks as a threat. 

Yes. Absolutely. I used to care about his jealousy until he destroyed a friendship, yelling "F@ck you" to an out of town guest at dinner. It was unbelievably humiliating and I still haven't repaired it. What do you say when your spouse does that?

Now, he gets upset with some of my friends because he thinks they don't like him. Too f@cking bad, I think. Grow up. Get over it.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2015, 01:14:23 PM »

Cat, I can so totally relate to that incident and empathize with you!  I came very close to having that happen 2 weeks ago on vacation.  A friend of mine was with us, but staying in her own quarters next door to us.  I thought she was keeping a very respectful distance between get-togethers, but not H.  He said 'why does she have to be with us every f**king minute?'  followed by 'if you don't keep her away from me tomorrow, my BPD side is going to come out and I may ruin your friendship'.  I did keep her away the following day, and the worst didn't happen, but I was very shaken up and tense about it the next two days.

Have you told your out-of-town friend anything about your husband's disorder?  I have told the above-mentioned friend, and several others, that H has a 'mood disorder'.  So if the worst ever happens and he throws some kind of temper tantrum at them, at least I can remind them that he has issues, so they won't hopefully take it too personally.
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« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2015, 02:00:45 PM »

My H acts super nice in company, and then I get the sulk/rage/ST later.

The worst was the few times I had the chance to see old friends that I had not seen in many years- and some were guys who I considered to be like brothers. The events were groups, with spouses and kids. There was absolutely nothing inappropriate about them.

Of course I was happy to see my friends, and yes, very relaxed when talking to them. Why wouldn't I be? I have known them since we were kids.

This alone was triggering but more so because some of the friends were male. I have been very fortunate to have had close friends growing up. I realize this was hard on him, but as adults, we deal with the fact that our SO's have other people they care about in their lives.

The outburst that happened later when we were home was just awful.
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