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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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« on: August 24, 2015, 04:57:08 PM »

A little background.  My wife has some BPD behaviors, but probably does not have BPD.  We went to see a psychologist and he described her as having high values (i.e. she has a very strong opinion on how everything should be, and I don't measure up).

She seems to have 2 major issues with me.  One, I lack tact, and often make social faux pas that embarrass her (it is not intentional, but she finds it embarrassing regardless).  Two, I am stubborn and she finds it difficult for me to make changes in my behavior or to do more chores around the house.

This past weekend, I yielded some.  I agreed to put my own dishes in the dishwasher (as opposed to just bringing them to the kitchen), and I agreed to read a book of her choice on social etiquette (she originally wanted me to read an encyclopedia, but we agreed for me to start with one book, and go from there).

So what did yielding get me?  Last night she was talking even more about how I need to change.  I told her she she chose me, warts and all, and should not be expecting major changes from me.  That ended the conversation, but she brought it up later that night.  She was offended, and we talked about it some more.  I find it offensive that she chose to marry me (we have been married 13 years), but she seems to find so much of me offensive.  While I am open to make some changes, she should not be looking for a drastically different man than the one she chose to marry.  She found that unacceptable and now does not want to go out in public with me unless she drives, interacts with everyone, etc, to limit my opportunities to embarrass her.  I found those terms unacceptable, so I told her that I will just do my own thing.  She is currently a housewife, but she is now looking for a job.  Most likely that is the first step in moving out/separating so that she is no longer dependent on me.  From my experience, I have gotten tired of not measuring up in her eyes.  I am not a dysfunctional person, but she still finds me intolerable.  While I don't want her to leave, I am also not prepared to accept her terms either.

I know I am probably doing 101 things wrong in this situation, but I think I do need to open myself up to outside criticism here.  Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 07:24:57 PM »

high values?   high values?   what?   I've never heard of that.   The psychologist actually said your wife has high values?
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 08:15:27 PM »

A little background.  My wife has some BPD behaviors, but probably does not have BPD.  We went to see a psychologist and he described her as having high values (i.e. she has a very strong opinion on how everything should be, and I don't measure up).

That doesn't sound like high values to me. That sounds more like opinionated and nitpicking. You have to realize that a psychologist can't go straight to the hard stuff right away. If the psych were to say something negative about her, then it is quite likely that she wouldn't be back and then nobody would be helped. That is one thing to keep in mind.

Excerpt
She seems to have 2 major issues with me.  One, I lack tact, and often make social faux pas that embarrass her (it is not intentional, but she finds it embarrassing regardless).  Two, I am stubborn and she finds it difficult for me to make changes in my behavior or to do more chores around the house.

Some people have a difficult time being tactful. It seems like they don't get certain social cues. No amount of book reading is going to change that.

I think there is a big difference between making changes in ones behavior and doing more chores around the house. It might help you to look at how the chores are divided. You say that she is a housewife. Do you have kids too? As the person that stays home with the kids, it can be very bothersome when the assumption is that I have to do the lion's share of the housework. It would be really nice if my husband would take a bit more initiative when it comes to doing stuff around the house.

Excerpt
This past weekend, I yielded some.  I agreed to put my own dishes in the dishwasher (as opposed to just bringing them to the kitchen),

I am going to nitpick for a second. Why do you consider putting your own dishes in the dishwasher yielding? Do you routinely expect her to do all of the dishes? I don't see putting your own dishes in the dishwasher as yielding. I see that as cleaning up after yourself.

Excerpt
and I agreed to read a book of her choice on social etiquette (she originally wanted me to read an encyclopedia, but we agreed for me to start with one book, and go from there).

This is definitely yielding. Why are you being pushed to read a book on social etiquette? That seems like a bit much.

Excerpt
I know I am probably doing 101 things wrong in this situation, but I think I do need to open myself up to outside criticism here.  Thoughts?

I don't think you are doing 101 things wrong. I think it might be helpful to sit down and sort out which things are reasonable and which things are not. For example, it seems reasonable to want the people that live in the house together to pick up after themselves and put their own dishes in the dishwasher. That seems reasonable.

Her pushing you to read a book on etiquette because she doesn't like how you interact with others seems to be a bit much. Is there more to the story? Is she wanting to take you to a black tie affair or something?

On issues that you think are unreasonable, you can set some boundaries. What those look like are up to you. How much of the lessons have you read? There is some good stuff there that might be helpful.
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 09:23:21 PM »

I have been a stay at home mom, and I appreciate what my H does to contribute to the family. I am basically the homemaker. I don't mind this, really. I don't think it would be reasonable to expect my H to support us and do the housework. I also want to feel like I am pulling my own weight in the family. I don't mind doing the dishes.

But to be honest, I wish he'd wash the dishes-- once in a while. Why? I don't know exactly why. But there is a book out there called "Porn for Women" and it isn't really porn. It's a series of pictures of good looking men doing housework.

Maybe, it's just not easy to feel romantic when, day after day, you face a sink of dirty dishes, and your H thinks he is doing you a favor because he clears the table.

"Hey baby... .I carried my dishes to the sink  are you thinking what I am thinking-- wink wink" is not sexy. Unless he is thinking about doing the dishes, I am not thinking what he is thinking. I am thinking about that sink full of dishes I need to do before I go to bed.

Cooking dinner, putting the kids to bed, then coming downstairs to finish cleaning up, and being surprised with a clean sink and no dishes?

Then, I might be thinking what he is thinking.

Fian, I think it is not reasonable to marry someone as they are, and then complain and expect them to change. It isn't fair to you, and it would not be fair to my H. I knew he was not going to do the dishes much when I married him, and I also knew he had great qualities too. I am not perfect either, he has to put up with me.

I know if feels bad to hear your wife complain. Is there some way to put some boundaries on listening to that? It seemed that when you made a change because of her complaining, she complained more. This makes sense as it reinforced her behavior. The complaining worked.

On the other hand, are you that unflexible about helping? If your wife is wanting to work then she may need you to  help out more.

I agree that it isn't fair to ask you to do more than you think is your share of the chores at home, but I do think being flexible and helping with the dishes may have its benefits 
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 10:46:40 PM »

Although I am several yrs. out that r/s, reading your post triggered some emotions related to one of the first heavy outbursts of exw many yrs. before the end an before I even knew of Cluster B.

May I summarize it as ‘I want you to change, otherwise you will face the consequences!’ ?

As from my experiences (exw being a HF) indeed telling her, she chose you and you chose her, will not work.

As I see it, she is frantically in search of validation as the bond is close, as the bond get’s (excuse me) boring.

When you comply to her demands that might reassure her (the feeling of losing control / testing you will be dormant again), but when you comply, a next one comes up, and a next one… all to comply.

Her ‘rules’ will be changed while playing the game.

Indeed, being in a r/s means shared tasks for a comfortable place named ‘home’, despite that on a deeper r/s level the non have to invest more.

Please, absorb the knowledge you gain from the good equipped members of this staying section!

BTW. In one of your earlier post you wrote (reminder for your next visit   )

Since you are in couples therapy, this is going to be geared to fixing both of you - not just your wife. You aren't perfect, so there are indeed things that you can work on. Accept your mistakes where valid and work on making them better. The Therapist will notice over time. Even if they initially misdiagnose the problem, I think the longer you go and show willingness to work on your side of the problem, the more the T will realize that the real issue is your wife.

What you also need to be prepared to do is in the MC list the issues of the things that your wife does to you. Let her deny them. Give examples. She will deny those as well. Over time your T should notice that your wife is denying everything
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2015, 08:29:45 AM »

high values?   high values?   what?   I've never heard of that.   The psychologist actually said your wife has high values?

This is based on what she told me (I wasn't in the session).  I think those were the words - that or high standards.
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2015, 08:53:56 AM »

I figured I would get in trouble on this board when it comes to the dishes.  (:  Some more background on this.  Part of this is my family culture.  We often did not even have a working dishwasher, so everyone would bring their dishes to the kitchen area, and whoever was responsible for dishes (sometimes me) would clean the dishes.  It doesn't mean, I can't do what she asks, but for me personally, that is my starting point on what is fair.

Anyway, the main reason why I think it is fair to expect her to handle the dishes is that she has the occupation of housewife, and we don't have kids.  In addition, her knees are bad so we have hired someone to clean the house 2 hours a week.  So since I am helping her do some of her responsibilities, I feel that it is reasonable for her to do the things that she is capable of doing, i.e. the dishes.  I feel the more she unloads housewife responsibilities on to me, the more unbalanced the work distribution becomes in the relationship.

She complained that loading the dishwasher is hard on her knees so my compromise was to load the dishwasher with my plates each night until we moved into a 1 level house (probably in December).
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2015, 09:03:38 AM »

Two, I am stubborn and she finds it difficult for me to make changes in my behavior or to do more chores around the house.

This past weekend, I yielded some.  I agreed to put my own dishes in the dishwasher (as opposed to just bringing them to the kitchen)

I'm with you on the "lacking tact" and I avoid fancy high society functions because I just can't get into painting my toenails, wearing perfume, schmoozing with self important rich people, and my fingernails perpetually have dirt I cannot seem to scrub out from working in the garden and riding horses. Thankfully my husband isn't interested in these events either.

You say you've been married 13 years. Well, dude, here's my tactless response: What the heck? You need to be told to put your dishes in the dishwasher?

It makes me wonder what other responsibilities you're dropping the ball on. I don't know if you have children or if your division of chores is strictly gender based. I'm the home handyman (my husband is clueless with tools) and I also do a lot of the "women's work."

Over time, he started slacking off on picking up after himself, which to me was infuriating and disrespectful. I had to draw boundaries over what I was willing to do and let him face the consequences of his own laziness. It totally sucked in that it impacted my comfort and the cleanliness of our house, but he's starting to take responsibility for himself.

Think of it as if you were roommates, not husband and wife. If your roommate refused to put her dishes in the dishwasher, because it was your job. Think what else you might have sloughed off on her that really is your responsibility as a human being.

If you haven't already done so, it might be a good time to list exactly how you divide chores and come to an agreement about what is fair. It might be that you do so much and that your wife barely keeps up her end, but since this is a bone of contention, putting it on paper might do you both good.

And I commend you on reading the etiquette book. There's always something we can learn.

However, this openness doesn't give your wife the right to pile on the complaints. You need to set a boundary about that. I think it's great that you're willing to try new things. Conversely, she needs to think about her "etiquette" and give you some credit. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

OK, you posted a comment after I had typed this and I understand your concern about her trying to get you to do more of what you considered her responsibilities.
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2015, 09:08:02 AM »

Her pushing you to read a book on etiquette because she doesn't like how you interact with others seems to be a bit much. Is there more to the story? Is she wanting to take you to a black tie affair or something?

No, we are talking about going out anywhere.  Movies, out to eat at local restaurants like Chili's, etc.  We don't have any friends because she feels that what I say around friends embarrasses her, and it is easier to just not have friends.  That plus she feels that everyone judges her negatively from being from Mexico.

She came from more of an upper class life in Mexico.  In that culture, you don't say things directly.  You hint at it, and the other person figures it out.  For me to directly say things she finds to be rude.  My wife also finds it embarrassing to say she is from Mexico, because people assume that she is one of the poor illegals.  In Mexico, it is a class based society, so being identified as a lower class is very offensive to her.

P.S.  I am an American, and we live in US.
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2015, 09:36:32 AM »

May I summarize it as ‘I want you to change, otherwise you will face the consequences!’ ?

Yes, exactly.  And my nature is to resist strongly when I am pressured into something.

When you comply to her demands that might reassure her (the feeling of losing control / testing you will be dormant again), but when you comply, a next one comes up, and a next one… all to comply.

Her ‘rules’ will be changed while playing the game.

I don't know that the rules change, but she just moves on to the next item on her list.  This is what I expected when I agreed to putting dishes in the dishwasher.

BTW. In one of your earlier post you wrote (reminder for your next visit   )

Hey, quoting me isn't fair! Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2015, 09:57:44 AM »

Fian, I fully agree on your logic. It is the same logic my H uses on me, although we do have children and that is my job as well. He regards doing the dishes as doing more than his job. We have: his job, my job and a strict line in the sand.

I don't mind doing them most of the time. I just know that it would be nice if he did do them once in a while. The times I have asked him- in the case that maybe one of the kids wasn't well, or I was not feeling well, it didn't matter why, but it led to such a meltdown that I long ago gave up that battle and just do them.

However, that isn't my exact vision of marriage. I imagined it would be a flow of something reciprocal. If he asks me to do something he thinks is "his" job, I do it if I can.

His job is the trash, until he got too busy to do it, so he asked and I did it. Now it is my job. The "cost" of asking him to do what he thinks is "my" job is just too high. I would rather do the dishes in peace in my quiet kitchen than argue with him. What is damaging to the relationships is not who does  the dishes but the way we relate over the dishes and that asking each other doesn't flow both ways easily.

I agree with my H about his position, and I agree with you. It can be maintained as right, fair, and unfair if you end up doing so much that you get resentful. However, the emotional payoff for my H for doing the dishes could be huge- but he's not likely to know what that is without letting go of his stand and trying it out. At the moment, he'd rather take his stand on it.

However, I do not have BPD. What I find with that is that doing something nice for someone with BPD in hopes of them feeling happy is like filling a bottomless pit. ( and it can be co-dependent too)  If you agree to a request to make her feel better, then the requests keep building. The problem in this is that the emotional emptiness is inside of them and they are looking outside of themselves for something to fill it, to make them feel better. Nothing outside them is likely to do that.

For me, it really is about the dishes... Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). I am not looking at it as something that would take care of my own bad feelings. I just think it does something for us women- and I must not be the only one if there is a whole book of pictures of men doing housework and they call it "porn"  Smiling (click to insert in post)

This gesture would not change the dynamics of BPD, but I think it is a gesture of kindness which can be a sort of "love language" to women.

I have seen where this becomes unbalanced- in the case of my mom. She did very little. We had household help and also did- and continue to do so when we visit- much of what was needed in the house. If we visit family, she puts us to work as soon as we walk in the house. I could set boundaries on this, but for a day or two, it isn't worth it the family angst over it. So we choose enabling over arguing in the short term- but not much can be accomplished to change in a short visit.


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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2015, 10:19:06 AM »

I don't know that the rules change, but she just moves on to the next item on her list.  This is what I expected when I agreed to putting dishes in the dishwasher.

This is where a lesson can be learned. Don't agree to do things unless you want to do them and you can follow through. If you are agreeing to do things to shut her up, that is the wrong reason to do them.

I have had that problem with my husband. He will agree to do something and I will wait for him to follow through. After a while, it becomes apparent that he didn't really want to do whatever it was that he agreed to do. I have tried to tell him that it is better to say no and stick to it than to agree to things, not follow through, and then wonder why I get upset when he fails to follow through.

How chores are divided isn't as important as whether or not both of you agree to it.
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 12:14:46 PM »

Fian, I fully agree on your logic. It is the same logic my H uses on me, although we do have children and that is my job as well. He regards doing the dishes as doing more than his job. We have: his job, my job and a strict line in the sand.

I don't mind doing them most of the time. I just know that it would be nice if he did do them once in a while. The times I have asked him- in the case that maybe one of the kids wasn't well, or I was not feeling well, it didn't matter why, but it led to such a meltdown that I long ago gave up that battle and just do them.

I understand that.  I do help her with "her chores" sometimes.  In the case of dishes, I help her wash the dishes after a big event like Easter dinner.  It isn't that I mind an occasional request, it is when she wants a permanent transfer of responsibility.
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 12:18:10 PM »

This is where a lesson can be learned. Don't agree to do things unless you want to do them and you can follow through. If you are agreeing to do things to shut her up, that is the wrong reason to do them.

This is why I am so resistant to agreeing to things.  If I agree to do something, then it is something that I will follow through on.  Since I know that it is an endless list, I at least want to delay her moving on to the next item.
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2015, 12:48:55 PM »

I can understand why you're reluctant to agree to a new task; she keeps shifting the goalposts. Have you considered that your resistance gets in the way of having a more agreeable relationship? Determining what's fair is hard enough in a normal relationship. With a pwBPD, you might as well give up the concept of equal responsibility.

Waverider suggested that we figure out other ways we can take what we need or want and determine our own personal sense of fairness through that.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I'm getting a sense of rigidity from what you write and when you start drawing lines in the sand about dishwasher issues, I wonder how the two of you can negotiate more important issues. (And I speak from my experience as the woman who threw a fit about my husband leaving his wet clothes in the washer for days until they mildewed. By the way he still does this occasionally, but now I figure it's his clothes, his problem.)
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 01:17:04 PM »

I can understand why you're reluctant to agree to a new task; she keeps shifting the goalposts. Have you considered that your resistance gets in the way of having a more agreeable relationship? Determining what's fair is hard enough in a normal relationship. With a pwBPD, you might as well give up the concept of equal responsibility.

Waverider suggested that we figure out other ways we can take what we need or want and determine our own personal sense of fairness through that.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I'm getting a sense of rigidity from what you write and when you start drawing lines in the sand about dishwasher issues, I wonder how the two of you can negotiate more important issues. (And I speak from my experience as the woman who threw a fit about my husband leaving his wet clothes in the washer for days until they mildewed. By the way he still does this occasionally, but now I figure it's his clothes, his problem.)

Yes, I am pretty inflexible.  I understand that it is a negative that I bring to the relationship.  While I do try and show some flexibility like I did with the dishwasher issue, I am not interested in a relationship where she dictates the way everything will be (and believe me, she is getting very specific about very minor things).  I guess you can call it a boundary.  Even, if I had my spine removed, there would still be the issue that without trying I embarrass her on regular basis.  Our marriage would still have major issues - I would just have less respect for myself than I do now.
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 01:31:55 PM »

Yes, I am pretty inflexible.  I understand that it is a negative that I bring to the relationship.  While I do try and show some flexibility like I did with the dishwasher issue, I am not interested in a relationship where she dictates the way everything will be (and believe me, she is getting very specific about very minor things).  I guess you can call it a boundary.  Even, if I had my spine removed, there would still be the issue that without trying I embarrass her on regular basis.  Our marriage would still have major issues - I would just have less respect for myself than I do now.

In my experience, stuff like this is about more than dishes or reading an etiquette book or even doing a thousand small things to meet her halfway. For me, stuff like this feels like being systematically rejected by my spouse. I know that I would like a spouse that wants to go out and be seen with me and announce to the world "This is MY spouse and I love her and am proud to be in a relationship with her."

I am thinking that you compromise on the things that you want to compromise on and let her deal with the rest. Figure out YOUR values and try to live them the best way you know how.

You can set a boundary by not agreeing to do things. I don't know if there is a way to set a boundary around something like, ":)on't be embarrassed by me." Maybe you can think about what it looks like for her to be embarrassed by you and then try to put a stop to her saying negative things to you.
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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 01:41:47 PM »

In my experience, stuff like this is about more than dishes or reading an etiquette book or even doing a thousand small things to meet her halfway. For me, stuff like this feels like being systematically rejected by my spouse. I know that I would like a spouse that wants to go out and be seen with me and announce to the world "This is MY spouse and I love her and am proud to be in a relationship with her."

Exactly.  As for boundaries, I think mine was triggered when she didn't want me to drive or talk to people.  I told her that is those were the terms, we wouldn't go out together.  Unfortunately, that was one of the few things that was helping our relationship.  And with that gone, I think things to get much worse between us.  To be honest, I am getting bitter, and that isn't healthy.
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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 04:29:44 PM »

Well my wife and I talked and "worked out" the issue.  Apparently the trigger issue for her on Sunday was that she felt the way I was eating was distracting to the person sitting next to me at a ":)ine-In Theatre" (this is a rather new thing where you are served restaurant food while watching a movie - really fun).  We agreed that I would sit next to the aisle next time so that I don't bother other people.  For the record, I have no clue if I was bothering the woman next to me or not.  Some of the food that I was eating was difficult to eat (I had to lean over the table to make sure that I did not spill) so maybe that was distracting.  The lady did choose to put the armrest down between me and her.

Anyway, she agreed to continue to go out with me, and that I would continue to drive and interact with people.  She had her justifications for why I shouldn't, but in the end she did agree that she wouldn't like it if she was married to someone that was embarrassed to be around her either.

So for now the issue is resolved, but in truth she still finds me to be embarrassing to be with.
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