Maybe I am just in complete denial...

[maxsterling]

I have a personality trait that believes the best in everyone.  I believe, with rare exceptions, every human is capable of being a good person, turning his/her life around, has a basic grasp and control over emotions, has a general respect for other people, is capable of intelligence, etc... .

That's noble, but also can lead me to stay in situations too long, be too patient, and get taken advantage of.

When I look at the way my wife is right now, the red flags are all still there.  I can cognitively think about them until I fear them and logically think about different paths.  But somehow I still fall back on the idea that I can separate who my wife is from her mental illness, that her mental illness is "curable", and that she has the basic building blocks she needs to have a happy life.

Yet, as I sit here now and go down the list, the reality is that she is unhealthily dependent on me, that this job is turning out to be a disaster, and that she's likely to not make it another month at this job.   I can sit and point to things that have happened recently that seem "better" - but that is relative.  For instance, she has been calling her therapist when distressed, and a few times actually cooked dinner for herself.  And while that is better than it was the previous year, a few calls to T and a few meals isn't a change in the overall pattern.  She still spends hours crying in high anxiety mode, still 95% negative about everything, still talks about life being worthless... .

But somehow, I still seem to be holding out hope that things are better or will be better... .

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[Cat Familiar]

Max, I think you've got OPD (Optimism Personality Disorder). Just kidding. 

What you see is what you get.

I saw really nice qualities in my first husband (the violent, irresponsible, adulterer) so I stayed with him for almost 20 years. And guess what, he's got an active arrest warrant in this state for beating up his second wife and fleeing before his arraignment.

From what I've heard from my therapist, most personality disorders get worse with age unless the individual is actively working on themselves and even then, it's a crapshoot. It's no wonder that a lot of therapists refuse to take too many clients with personality disorders at any one time. They're exhausting.

So, is this what you want your life to look like 5 years from now? 20 years from now? 40 years from now?

[vortex of confusion]

 

I can relate to always seeing the good in others. I have been with my husband for 17 years and I always manage to find the good in him.

I think part of it is me being afraid of seeing the bad because I don't want to be consumed by it. It is easier to hold on to hope than it is to admit defeat. What are you afraid of? Is it failing the relationship? Failing yourself? Hurting your wife? Being alone? Being seen as a quitter? What is happening that makes you realistically think that there is reason to hold out hope?

Cat asked an excellent question. Is this what you want your life to look like 5 years from now?

[formflier]

And while that is better than it was the previous year, a few calls to T and a few meals isn't a change in the overall pattern. 

But... .it is a step in the right direction... .

I am also an optimist... .

What I have found that helps... .

Pick times to evaluate... .say once a month... .allow yourself... .force yourself... .to look at the situation through a critical lens during that time... .try to talk yourself out of it... .

Then... .unless you uncover earth shattering information... .press on with your normal... optimistic life...

Hope this helps...

FF

[Notwendy]

Max, maybe you are in denial and maybe you are not.

You chose your wife because ... well you did. Does anyone really understand the attraction between two people?

I think we all have wondered sometimes - between two people " how does he put up with her? How does she put up with him?"

I have just stopped wondering. It's your life, your journey, Max. You make the choices.

From my perspective, I thought my father was in denial. Perhaps that's how he dealt with some of the situations I thought were intolerable. However, this was his situation to choose, and he chose it.  It wasn't my place to know why.

We match our spouses, unless one of us changes, and we don't match anymore. I have friends whose husbands I could not see myself with -ever- but my friends love them.  I could see myself with my H. Our choices are emotional and partly subconscious.

[Jack_50]

Joining the OPD club here.

Max, how often did she go to the T?

I'm convinced that it is possible to change a person, but only through positive encouragement; meaning if they decide to change themselves.

Probably stems from the OPD.

I think it would be useful that whatever small change your wife does in the right direction, needs to be encouraged.  When she cooks dinner, you need to tell her in a basic and down-to-earth way that you're happily surprised to notice a positive change in her, and to continue with it.

Do this regularly, and she will follow on the path to improve.

She probably has very low self-esteem from failing all the time, and needs closer guidance to learn to do things differently.

Without encouragement, there is just no incentive for her to change or continue on that path.  Just be careful not to belittle her, no adult will accept that. Be calm and straight.  Even if she objects to it, inside the seed of change will start to grow.  It's up to you to nurture it to fruition.

Jack

[Notwendy]

It's fine to look at the positive side of people, but I don't know if holding out for a fantasy future is a good idea.

Nobody has a crystal ball to see what will or will not change in a person.

Your know what the situation is with your wife. It may or may not change for the better or worse.

Your wife was like this when your chose to marry her. Marrying someone doesn't change them into something else.

She is the same person now as when you married her.

I still fall back on the idea that I can separate who my wife is from her mental illness,

Even mentally ill people can be multifaceted. I am sure that you and your wife have shared some wonderful moments, and also the bad times.

Perhaps it is better to assess the situation as it is and not deny any of it.

What if it simply was this? My wife is mentally ill, and she has a good side of her. I choose ( or not choose) to love her and cherish her - the way she is. She may or may not get better in the future. This is tough sometimes, but I still choose ( or not choose ) it.

Another choice could be that you love her but have decided that this is too much for you. Or that you will choose to be with her, even if it is hard on you.

You have this choice Max.

I know that her T is confidential, but perhaps she will allow you to ask about progress and prognosis from the T, so you can get an idea of how she is doing.

[Cat Familiar]

I believe, with rare exceptions, every human is capable of being a good person, turning his/her life around, has a basic grasp and control over emotions, has a general respect for other people, is capable of intelligence, etc... .

I'd like to believe the way you do, but I really don't think that people with BPD have as much executive control over their emotions as nons do. They may want to, but it seems as though they're wired differently. I have to remind myself of this when I see my husband at the mercy of his emotions. He can be a very rational person if he's not triggered, but as with many pwBPDs, he is frequently triggered, though most often only mildly triggered. I'm glad he's mostly high functioning because I've seen him when he's not, and it's very uncomfortable to be around.

Until I realized that he was a pwBPD, I kept asking him why he let his emotions run away with his rationality. (I'm very rational and I can observe my emotional state and choose how fully I want to experience it at the moment. This has been a very handy strategy for me my whole life. It's not to say I shut down my emotions, but I can postpone them until a more convenient time. And I assumed everyone could do this--but I've really been surprised to find out that this is not the case.)

[Jack_50]

Your wife was like this when your chose to marry her. Marrying someone doesn't change them into something else.

She is the same person now as when you married her.

NotWendy,

I beg to differ:  people often show their best sides when trying to convince someone into a partnership, but it is not how they would behave, when that incentive is not there.

Marriage has a profound impact on a person : it will change their ideas and principles, simply because the basis they start from is now totally different.

I do agree therefore, that it is important to evaluate the situation as it is today, and not as it was 5 or 10 years ago.  You can not bring back the person from the past, it is not a hidden treasure inside your partner.

Max, your partner has evolved into the current state, and will evolve again for the better or worse from here on.  It depends on so many factors (emotions, perception, environment, willingness, history, etc), that, as an outsider, it is impossible to predict where it will go.

But I do know that positive encouragement has far better results on the long term than any other method.

When re-reading your post, it seems to me that her self-esteem is in shambles.  And she's expecting you to guide her out of it.  And as you "fail" to do that in her eyes, she gives you the abusive treatment as punishment.  Could that be the case?

Cat : what you're describing is emotional intelligence.  It's a life skill that many people lack.  In my marriage it's the opposite situation, my wife is a frequent victim of her emotions.  And it's a slow process, but there are signs that she starts to learn to control them (sometimes).

Jack

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

Describe Relationship:   Year long relationship with live-in BPD girlfriend has worn me out, and I need help and support deciding how to proceed.



This was how you described your relationship two years ago.  What I have read in your posts over the last two years is that for your w there has been a steady presentation of all the pervasive behaviours associated with a clinical diagnosis of BPD. This is ongoing.

All your posts convey similar ongoing dilemmas, will she change, improve, get better or shall I serve the OOP, leave, have a baby, wait it out, hope for a cure?

You posted about being in denial and yes denial is possible here for you, but what do you want to do if you accept you are in denial?

Skip put up a link around codependency, what are your thought around this?

Has your support network/T explored denial and codependency issues with you?

[Notwendy]

Jack, I believe we can both be correct. People do tend to be on their best behavior during a courtship. Some of us here have felt blindsided by the emergence of more serious behaviors after marriage, or children. However, I was addressing Max's situation. I first came on this board when he was describing the disregulated emotions over the wedding ceremony. I had not realized he had already legally married her, but he chose to go through the ceremony and reception with full knowledge of his wife's behavior at the time.

I was addressing the idea that some people believe a person will be "better" after the wedding. I don't know if this is Max or not, but I think some people believe it.  If Jack's theory applies, then Max's wife was on her best behavior before the marriage, and he knew of her condition.

It is entirely possible that Max did not understand fully, what the condition was and how pervasive it was. I think this can absolutely happen. I believe this is the case with my parents. There was no information about BPD then. It took me a long time to understand it, and by then, I was grown and married myself.  Max's may be now realizing what BPD is.

Positive reinforcement has an impact on a person, but it can not cure or reverse a mental illness. If someone is mentally ill, this affects how they process all the information they receive. There is hope for people with BPD, but I believe that kind of prognosis has to be in the hands of a professional. BPD is a spectrum disorder. Like other spectrum disorders, the prognosis probably depends on how severely affected one is and what other health/mental health issues are present.

My own view is that waiting for someone else to change for the better while doing the same thing and being the same in a relationship is not useful. The one and only person we can possibly effectively change is ourselves. That may create changes in others, but if that is the focus, then it isn't likely to be as successful as being motivated to change ourselves.

Max's question is a great one because- although it may be focused on his wife's disorder, it is about him

Am I in denial ?

Great question. Another one might be

Why am I in denial?

[Notwendy]

One idea about denial is - is this the way you coped as a child? Is it a family "rule"? Even abused children love their parents. Some will report a "happy childhood" even though they were abused. Some erase the memory and use this function as an adult. I tend to take the "it's not so bad" route. I tolerated a lot of poor treatment in my marriage before I recognized it as that. Since my H was nice to me sometimes- I thought that was normal- a lot like how my parents were. In ways they were wonderful parents, and I was emotionally abused. But for years I forgot that part.

In my home, we were told my mother was normal. We were instructed to not speak about it. It was sort of daily brainwashing. It worked. People could treat me like cr*p, and I'd return like a happy puppy.

Before anything could change about the way people treated me, I had to come out of denial. I had to recognize that certain behaviors are not acceptable to me. Learning boundaries wasn't easy. It was trial and error. And, my FOO did not like it. Neither did my H. They did not like that I was different. However, I did.

I am also aware that the issues I faced in my marriage are different than my parents. My co-dependency ( which I thought was being a normal nice person) was enhancing my H's traits. In this situation, the tools learned on this site have led to an improved relationship with both my H and my mother.  

However, she still remains mentally ill, and a challenge for me to deal with.

[waverider]

I was on here dealing with my wifes (then partner) issues much the same as max and had the belief we could beat this thing. So whats changed?

I have, and my expectations have, this has had a flow on effect so that I am no longer trying to push the near impossible, with "magical thinking". Things stabilized, the high conflict has gone (aimed at me anyway), BPD is still there in spades, and most likely always will be.Relationship toxicity is now a thing of the past and has been for sometime

I have since got married, on the basis that things will stay exactly the same. I will massage what improvements I can, but I am not expecting any, and in fact I expect her functionality to decline.

I have accepted this for what it is, not what it might be.

I would say things have stabilized and I am well into the thrive mode rather than survive mode.

I think it an important benchmark to look at your old posts and compare to recent ones and ask "whats different?", from there you then have a direction to work out if they are likely to be different this time next year for example.

[Notwendy]

Seriously WW, if you could bottle some of your wisdom and coping and sell it, you could make millions. I'd have bought a few gallons of it myself.

[Cat Familiar]

I have since got married, on the basis that things will stay exactly the same. I will massage what improvements I can, but I am not expecting any, and in fact I expect her functionality to decline.

I have accepted this for what it is, not what it might be.

Waverider mentioned "magical thinking" in his post and that could refer to either you or her, or both. I haven't been following your story as long as some here, but it seems like there were several points at which both of you might have thought that things would change:

1. getting married

2. having marriage ceremony for family and friends

3. her getting a new job

4. entertaining the idea of having a baby

So far, overall her mental health remains basically the same. I think what Jack is saying is a dangerous idea: that positive reinforcement can cure mental illness. I tried for nearly 20 years, thinking that if I just loved my first husband enough that he would change. Didn't happen. I'm just glad I wasn't the wife he beat up when he got arrested.

[sweetheart]

I was thinking more about denial. Denial can also mean we know there are problems but we rationalise, excuse or minimise their effect on us. Do you think you do any of these things max?

Another reason we deny things I believe is that they are familiar to us, along the same lines as Notwendy, maybe we grew up being exposed to similar types of behaviour. And because they might be familiar, our way of dealing with them is a learnt response from our childhood.

Thus these behaviours become almost normalised and accepted and yet... .I can hear max that you know there is a problem, because you are asking the right questions.  

Denial also keeps us stuck, something that was raised on another thread is that you are stuck in survival mode.

I just want to say that for you to thrive, to confront the denial and codependency issues you post about, it might mean leaving your marriage.

[Cat Familiar]

Max, I was wondering if you could step outside your situation and pretend your role is played by someone whom you treasure: a friend, a family member.

Looking at the entire history that this person (who is subbing for you) has had with the girlfriend, then wife, what would you tell him?

Would you encourage him to keep on keeping on? Would you think there is hope for a better future?

What would you advise him to do?