Introduction - and searching for the best interests of the kids.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I've been staring at a blank dialog box and wondering what to say, and where to start.  I guess dry facts are a good place to start.  I've been unhappily married for about 18 years.  The unhappiness has increased incrementally.  For religious reasons, and other reasons, I had always been absolutely against divorce.  I have five kids (D16, D14, S10, D8, D5).  I am a pretty happy and healthy person, but, I hit rock bottom late last year.  While searching some books for a model of what a good / normal marriage was, I stumbled across the phrase Borderline Personality Disorder.  After some basic investigation, it struck like lightning that so many feelings seemed to apply to how I was living.  I have scooped up and read several books about BPD.  I also gave myself permission to think about divorce, and read many more books about kids and divorce, specifically.  I guess like a drowning person concentrates on getting air, my desperation in marriage has made me concentrate on divorce.  This is not as easy as just going for air, though I think my life depends on it in the same way.

My wife exhibits maybe 4 or 5 diagnostic traits for BPD, (but they kind of morph and progress as far as I can tell - and bear in mind, I've had many years to adapt to living as a survivor, so I don't see too clearly) and pretty much all the traits of avoidant  personality disorder, with a focus on negative views.  Although her parents are still married to each other, I know she had a very verbally and emotionally abusive childhood, and I am sad now that I understand how bad that must have been for her.  In some other ways, she seems to not fit the typical BPD woman.  I have no recollection of her being super attracted to me or idealizing me, but again, a lot of time has past.  We never had a really "hot" time in our relationship.  Maybe it went from not-so-hot, to worse.  I remember some of her rages, but I don't think she's like many of the BPD wives I've read about.  I feel as though she acts like an emotional child.  I have vivid examples of her projection, blaming, frigidity, passive aggression, manipulation, emotional blackmail, profound fear of abandonment, worthlessness (and a holier than thou attitude to balance it), "helpless rages," and she's expressed suicidal ideation of sorts.  As an aside, I am not asking for help diagnosing my wife's condition.  I think that it's too distracting right now to see how many criteria are satisfied, and figure out why my wife does not exhibit such-and-such trait, but does another trait, and so forth.  The end result is that she appears to have a disordered personality that seems to fatally conflicts with my dAll told, I cannot see a way to stay married for long and yet be who I am supposed to be in life.

About me: I have been keeping a journal as a way of seeing if I am the crazy one, and to track my feelings and her behavior.  I have been through a series of visits with a therapist, again to work on improving myself as a parent, and try to discover / uncover my feelings and values - for my own self.  I have met with a few divorce attorneys - who paint an expensive and bleak picture.  Although I have long workdays, I am a devoted dad and love being with my kids, and have always been deeply involved in the family.  As I indicated above though, my dismal marriage was taking its toll on me.  As a result, I have wrestled with depression and been subjected unwittingly to years of crazy-making behavior, and blame, and criticism, and manipulation, all of it subconsciously.  I can see now that I have a care-taker personality - always seeking out and taking care of kids, fostering dogs for a rescue group, careers in military, police, and fire service, donating blood regularly, donating time and money to charity, etc.  --- All of which is noble until combined with a BPD spouse.  

In the last year I have gone through an awakening and I can see things now that I missed in the decades previously.  I have been creating and enforcing some boundaries with my wife, which has been great for me and torment for her.  I have stood up for myself a little. In spite of her insistence otherwise, I have moved my sleeping quarters to the basement so that I could sleep.  There has been no sexual intimacy since April, and she has said things before that that have kind of killed any prospects for future intimacy or normalcy in that regard of marriage.  When I'm in the room with her, I usually find myself in a low-grade panic where I am looking for the nearest exit.  I find myself equating marriage with being buried alive and/or drowning - which is probably not a good outlook.  I could go on, but, I'll try to make this less than a novel

Here's what is really weighing on me now, and I know this a problem only I can decide and solve.  What do I do?  What is best for the kids?  

I want to be a great dad.  I want to break the generational cycle of abuse-victim turned abuser.  I can do my part and strive to be a great dad, but, I debate how much I can do when I'm married in my situation.  

I want to be confident that what I am doing is better for the kids, staying or going.  I am not sure I can stay married knowing what I know now about emotional abuse, and how my life is not my own at the time.  I can barely stand the isolation, cold hostility, and frigidity of marriage as it is.  Let me just say that I'm lonely too.  

For a time I assumed I could not afford a divorce itself, or life after divorce, with spousal support and child support.  Furthermore, I suspect I would feel like I was abandoning the kids to a worse fate if I pursue a divorce.  On the other hand, I really like the prospect of creating a second, albeit humble, home where kids can be kids - and get out of the house with their mom, at least for a part of the time.  

I know that it's up to me, but I'm looking for support, especially from those who have walked this path too.  I can't go on as things are.  I find that others, not living with a PD partner, just don't get it.  

Deepest thanks to the community.

edit* ahem, upon reflection, this post should be moved to the undecided or leaving boards... .thnx

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Turkish]

Hello SamwizeGamgee,



First, I like your username: the stable and loyal friend, albeit mistreated, and probably underrated. Second, you'll get wise advice here on this boad from senior members, many of whom have been where you are at. Third, great kids. I only have S5 and D3, and they run me ragged enough! Speaking of which, how are the kids handling it and seeing things? We have resources here which can help with that, too.

That you do all that you do for others (kids, animals, charity) is nobel. Do you feel as if your emtionally immature wife doesn't see this, being focused upon herself?

You've read about BPD. We have more in the lessons to the right of the board. You've been in a long marriage, and your kids are valuable collateral, the most.

Perhaps you can start here:

The Do's and Don'ts for a BP relationship

Turkish

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you for the welcome.  I think you know how good it feels to be able to open up about what's inside.

I read the linked article you provided, and, I think I just don't have the stamina anymore to be the caretaker for a BPD.  I'm only so strong, and I'm fighting for a come-back victory as for my emotional health.  I can love and be a caretaker for kids and dogs, sure, but they are honest, and predictable, and joyful, and love you back, and I feel that effort is well spent.  Right now I feel like everything and anything I do for my wife is just fodder for reinterpretation, manipulation, and future hurts.  I might have reached the end of my rope.  Especially as I read what it will take to retain sanity in this relationship. If it's a list of Do's and Dont's, I think that draws a line to my "cant anymore's."

To answer your question, my wife comments often that she sees how much effort I put into the kids, and how good it is for them, and how they are really anchored to me.  That makes her feel bad, excluded, and sad.

To answer your other question, I am concerned with how the kids see this.  I am deeply sad that they do not have the blessing of seeing a healthy, happy, adult relationship in the home.  I keep myself to a strict policy of no fighting with the wife, no taking the bait, no conflict, in front of the kids.  I think that confuses them a little, but I also think it protects them.  On occasion, I have come home and found them pale-faced and nearly in shock after mom's been on a tirade.   

[Turkish]

To answer your question, my wife comments often that she sees how much effort I put into the kids, and how good it is for them, and how they are really anchored to me.  That makes her feel bad, excluded, and sad.

This feels familiar to me. I often would catch the kids mom standing at the entrance to the room,.watching me as I read to the kids. In those days, she didn't do that so much. Later,.wafish comments such as, "no wonder they like you better," said in front of the kids,.as if I or the kids were responsible for rescuing her from her feelings.

Though we inadvertently or otherwise may step into the role of emotional caretaker, it can trigger the core feelings of shame with a person with BPD,.the added confusion being signals to do just that.

This past year, I found with my BPD mother that she did better after I stopped rescuing her ginancially. Even with my Ex, I've been fed back, "I know that you aren't responsible for my feelings." Maybe this resource can help:

Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist

[

To answer your other question, I am concerned with how the kids see this.  I am deeply sad that they do not have the blessing of seeing a healthy, happy, adult relationship in the home.  I keep myself to a strict policy of no fighting with the wife, no taking the bait, no conflict, in front of the kids.  I think that confuses them a little, but I also think it protects them.  On occasion, I have come home and found them pale-faced and nearly in shock after mom's been on a tirade. 

Why do you think it confuses them?

We have resources on the Co-Parenting Board which can help you with the kids. Its hard trying to do what's best to protect them, but their feelings need to be validated as well. We can help over there with issues specifically related to the kids. It says "after the split" but the lessons and resources can help, as they are focused upon you and the kids.

Turkish

[teapay]

Sam,

I can certainly identify with your situation and desire to leave. My wife has BPD and we have five kids too, roughly around the ages of your kids. Dealing with the wife can take more energy and effort than all five kids, house and work. I've also often pondered ending the marriage and it might eventually end up that way. I'd be okay with that. My wife can get very suicidal and has made a few attempts so having to raise the kids alone is something I've come to terms with and know I can do.

At this point though I am staying and it is pretty much for the kid’s sake. I have some of the same concerns here as you. Their relationship with their mom is generally okay. She doesn’t BPD on them like she'll do to me and they don't want us to split. That's good and I wouldn't want to upset that on them. If that changes I'd reconsider. My bigger concern is her modeling some bad behaviors and thinking to them, and also some neglect. These things effect them and sometimes they mirror the behaviors and thinking.   However if we split they'd still be exposed to this stuff without me around to temper it unless I get primary custody. So I'd definitely seek custody. I doubt my wife wants to raise 5 kids on her own.

The fact that you are exhausted with the relationship is easily understandable. It's hard to imagine leaving as ever a wrong answer.  Staying seems the aberration as few folks seem to do without some mitigating factor.  The kind of spousal relationship you seem to be seeking might never materialize with her. I've struggled to come to terms with that in my marriage. My wife has been on meds and in counseling for years, including dbt. There are some positive changes. Nothing earth shattering. Most therapists would hail this as a stupendous and fabulous success although they don't have to live with her.

So in staying I put my efforts into the kids, my life and my work and the marriage gets its routine maintenance.  I ignore or manage the non-sense that crops up as sensitively as a can, but then simply drive on.  Once my kids get older, I’ll probably reconsider if the situation is unchanged.  Ultimately, she might not like that and leave.  Problem solved.

[SamwizeGamgee]

To answer your question, my wife comments often that she sees how much effort I put into the kids, and how good it is for them, and how they are really anchored to me.  That makes her feel bad, excluded, and sad.

This feels familiar to me. I often would catch the kids mom standing at the entrance to the room,.watching me as I read to the kids. In those days, she didn't do that so much. Later,.wafish comments such as, "no wonder they like you better," said in front of the kids,.as if I or the kids were responsible for rescuing her from her feelings.




Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist

[

To answer your other question, I am concerned with how the kids see this.  I am deeply sad that they do not have the blessing of seeing a healthy, happy, adult relationship in the home.  I keep myself to a strict policy of no fighting with the wife, no taking the bait, no conflict, in front of the kids.  I think that confuses them a little, but I also think it protects them.  On occasion, I have come home and found them pale-faced and nearly in shock after mom's been on a tirade. 

Why do you think it confuses them?

We have resources on the Co-Parenting Board which can help you with the kids. Its hard trying to do what's best to protect them, but their feelings need to be validated as well. We can help over there with issues specifically related to the kids. It says "after the split" but the lessons and resources can help, as they are focused upon you and the kids.

Turkish

So true. My wife seems so upset when I do good - dad stuff.  Seems to me that a woman would want her offspring to have a good dad. But, who said this should make sense... .

As to why I think the kids are confused is that I act "separated" from their mom (I'm sleeping separately in the basement, we don't sit together or act like a couple) but meanwhile I shield the kids from the undercurrent of the stress in the relationship. So, I act like a normal happy dad to them.  I just think it throws off their senses of what's normal.

About that book you recommend, funny thing is that I just ordered it last week! 

There's so much I have to learn still, while my wife just tries to rule her kingdom - it's disheartening.


@teapay, yeah it's an endurance sport for sure. Not knowing the future or what's best for the kids is the single hardest thing about my life right now.

[teapay]

Sam,

I can understand your struggle with all the uncertainty.  I imagine there is lot of uncertainty with your wife's behaviors and also in you regarding some of the decisions you need to make.  Although I thought my wife suffered from depression, alot of the other things she did didn't seem to fit with depression.  I thought those other behaviors were character issues (and perhaps some of that is true).  I kind of went into shock when I learned about BPD and that she matched it perfectly.  I took about 6 months for that shock to settle down.  I guess I had more hope that she'd change if character was involved. A MI, like BPD, seems like you're dead in the water.  I spent alot of time reading on it and in addition to the book recommended I'd recommend the latest versions of Randy Kreger "Essential wife guide to BPD", Valerie Porr "Overcoming BPD" and Bon Dobbs, "when hope is not enough".  These give a wide range of ways to interact and manage relationships with a BPD person.  I basically pick and choose from them and try to find what works at the time.  Couples counseling was big mistake.  Personal therapy for me was so-so.  I've gotten better at handling the uncertainty by becoming more certain I what I plan to do and want to do, which includes a variety of carrot and stick approaches.  There also seems to be some degree of chessmanship in the relationship. Both positive and negative coadaption.

One more thing about staying or leaving.  I have always tried to do right by my wife, kids and family and don't see it right why that should change. I dont want to compromise my core values on how i live my life.  While I have thought about leaving, it doesn't seem right to me for me to be driven away from my kids and the home i worked for in exasperation like some kind of Elephant Man by someone with an MI sitting in the catbirds seat.  My kids need someone with a functional brain around. I'm willing to work with her and support her in a reasonable way that is healthy for a BPD, help her recover too,  but I won't be bullied or manipulated into doing alot of things I really don't what to do, especially if they are major.  If she doesn't like that she can go if she wants.  I'll let her initiate that process, though, unless she crosses major boundaries (fidelity, substance abuse, physical or constant verbal abuse).  I'll help pave the way if she wants to go that route and make it easiet for her, but not do it for her, or contort myself too much so she doesnt have to.

While it's painful now, learning more and figuring out what you want will come if you keep at it.  If you want resolution it will come one way or another if you keep at it.

Teapay