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Author Topic: Help me get a new perspective...  (Read 475 times)
Ceruleanblue
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« on: September 15, 2015, 10:36:52 AM »

I can't change BPDh, and I can't change the rotten situation we are in, so I need ideas on how I can feel better about it. What I can do.

BPDh withheld the fact that he is doing lunch today with his daughter who refuses to be around me. He said he wanted a "nice weekend", and that was why he didn't tell me. Honesty, and disclosure have been a huge issue in our marriage. He often lies in regards to his kids, and his kids are also fed up with his lies, which is ironic, as they are just as bad. He refuses to tell his daughter that he's hurt by her refusal to include me, and he also fears even mentioning me to her. Of course, all this hurts, and at this point, angers me. He's allowing it.

Because I've done everything, and I mean everything including apologizing for stuff THEY did, I can do no more. How do I stop being so hurt and angry about this? Our MC always gets steered in this direction of talking about BPDh's kids too, and I just don't want to spend over an hour beating that dead horse. Even MC has become a toxic feeling place.

I've tried changing my attitude, but maybe I'm doing it wrong? I need to stop feeling so hurt and angry. I feel I'm justified, as I feel after four years of this, BPDh needs to set a boundary, and stop cowtowing to his daughters demands, but he won't. Even though my anger and hurt are justified, it isn't doing ME any good, so I need to figure this out.

I'm open to ideas.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2015, 11:48:44 AM »

I can't change BPDh, and I can't change the rotten situation we are in, so I need ideas on how I can feel better about it. What I can do.

BPDh withheld the fact that he is doing lunch today with his daughter who refuses to be around me. He said he wanted a "nice weekend", and that was why he didn't tell me.

Maybe this is his way of protecting you from them and their drama.  Just looking at it from a different perspective.  It is difficult because he feels torn.  This is tough on anyone when family relations are strained, especially when your family doesn't like who you are married too and vice versa.  maybe this is his way of separating each of you from that and still protect the r/s on both sides.  The issue I see is that he is allowing triangulation which brings me to my next point... .

Honesty, and disclosure have been a huge issue in our marriage. He often lies in regards to his kids, and his kids are also fed up with his lies, which is ironic, as they are just as bad. He refuses to tell his daughter that he's hurt by her refusal to include me, and he also fears even mentioning me to her. Of course, all this hurts, and at this point, angers me. He's allowing it.

He does need to be honest with both you and with them.  I'm going through this part with my wife in a round about way.  She doesn't share with people that I am with her and the kids when asked who she is with.  I could confront her about it, but at the same time, people see the truth.  She isn't outright lying, but it is known omission of facts.  Amazing how they can "grey area" what they want to.  I could take this personally, but this weekend was the first time that my kids have been included on a facebook post with hers in almost a year.  That is progress in and of itself.  I used to get pissed and think it was me, or that she was ashamed of me.  I don't see that now.  I know wholeheartedly it is her unhealthiness that causes it.  I truly believe she is ashamed of herself and ashamed of the fact that she has back herself into a corner with people to the point that she can't just come out and be open about our r/s and seeing each other as often as we have.  What I see now from including my kids on a facebook post is "testing the waters" with people to see how they would react.  She still doesn't get 2 things (or maybe she does):  1. They don't care.  2. They can put 2 and 2 together about us knowing my kids are with her.  Either way, I choose to not let her issue here affect me or how I treat the situation.  I hope this makes sense.  

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Notwendy
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2015, 12:15:46 PM »

I've tried changing my attitude, but maybe I'm doing it wrong? I need to stop feeling so hurt and angry. I feel I'm justified, as I feel after four years of this, BPDh needs to set a boundary, and stop cowtowing to his daughters demands, but he won't. Even though my anger and hurt are justified, it isn't doing ME any good, so I need to figure this out.

I'm open to ideas.



The issues between H and his kids are pretty deep, and probably independent of his relationship with you. Even if it seems clear that he should do something, and he knows how you feel, he does it anyway.

A different example of this could be an alcoholic. The alcoholic knows he ( or she) is making himself sick , destroying his life, making his family miserable. He does it anyway.

When AA came about, the founders discovered something. They could help the alcoholic, but the spouses, in their attempts to help, were actually making the situation worse.  As it was pretty gender role specific in that era, there is even a chapter in the book for "wives". Out of this observation, the concept of al anon and co-dependency came about.

So for ideas. First, you ask about changing your attitude so you are not angry, hurt and frustrated. I'm not sure that is what you want, because to take away your feelings, you will need to disconnect from your true self. I think we can do this momentarily, but then sooner or later, that voice of our self says " THIS HURTS"

Our feelings are there to protect us. If you didn't feel pain, you would burn your hand on a hot stove. If you didn't feel emotional pain, you would not know that something isn't right- not on the right/wrong or justified/not justified scale, but not right for you.

If you continue to base your feelings on your husband's actions, then he has the key to your happiness. IMHO, married or not, the only person who has that key needs to be us. -YOU, and the focus of what makes you happy comes from you.

It isn't easy to watch someone in a destructive relationship, or situation like substance abuse, but this is their responsibility to fix, not yours. Your H and his daughter are their issue.  

Just like the spouse of the alcoholic can not fix their spouse, neither can you fix him. Your choice is how to deal with your feelings about it. That isn't easy to do, but they are your feelings and IMHO, trying not to feel them may not be the best approach.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2015, 12:48:03 PM »

One thing that helped me was to take a look at myself honestly and see how I may have contributed to these feelings.

I found the 12 steps to be very helpful at dealing with resentments. It honestly surprised me as I hardly even drink. Neither does my H, but co-dependency fit me like a glove and the steps helped.

When I met my H, I may as well have had a giant neon sign above my head that said " Doormat- for sale- cheap. Will take occasional crumb of affection" . I was a magnet for guys who wanted someone to not treat well.

When I got right down to the truth, much of my anger at my H was at myself for giving up so much of what I considered to be the core of who I was in order to please him, change him, get him to consider me.

I still struggle with some resentments, but it is better, and one thing that made it better was getting myself back- a work in progress. Doing that involved some risks- he might get mad at me, he might even leave me.  But I had to start taking care of myself, doing things that were meaningful to me regardless of what was going on with him.

It is hard to do, I know, but change in attitude may start with us. I hope this helps.  
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MaybeSo
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2015, 07:17:37 PM »

I am always helped by understanding drama triangle dynamics... .and staying off of drama triangles.  Not everyone has to like me.  I can still take care of myself and move along.  

His children are adults, he is an adult, you are an adult.  This is a drama triangle.

You can feel hurt.  But, sooner or later... .it's a choice and it's tied into drama triangle dynamics if you stay hurt.

You may never have a 'good' relationship with his daughter.  She may always need to be in victim.  

You have no control over that. Only yourself.  If H gets involved then he is either being a persecutor, rescuer or victim... and you will all keep spinning through these different roles... .until or unless you choose to get off the triangle and not occupy any of those roles nor require anyone else to occupy one of those roles on your behalf.  He cannot rescue you. You cannot rescue him.

If his kids have PD stuff... .which you suspect... .then being in "victim" and "splitting" is going to be part of how they are.  

There is nothing you can do about it.  To take it personally and get hooked into it... .is no different than if you were doing that with H.  It just makes you sick and miserable.

All you can do is take care of your side of the street and not personalize other people's emotional immaturity or mental illness.
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2015, 02:04:04 AM »

I'm trying to stay out of this triangle, but I also would like peace, for BPDh's sake. Of course he wants us all to get along, and I'd like that too. The issue arises, and I guess that could be the triangulation, in that I want this, but his daughter does not, and BPDh doesn't do anything to promote peace either. I guess I just have to totally remove myself from the equation?

As it is, I have nothing to do with this girl, really. I can be cordial, but she just doesn't want to be around me, so I really don't have access to her anyway. I guess I'm already out of the triangle? Other than the fact that I'd like peace. I have zero communication with her, and I'd love to stop having to talk about all this in our MC sessions. It's like beating a dead horse, nothing gets accomplished by it, but I do end up feeling badly.

I certainly don't want BPDh to "rescue" me, I'd just like him to express that his wife be respected. Of course, I have no control of that, but it sure would be nice, and it's what I consider should happen in a more normal marriage. I never thought I could rescue him out of all the dysfunction, but I thought I could set a good example by my actions, and by exposing him to my family. Again, it would have to be his choice, but if all you've been exposed to is unhealthy relationships, how can you model a healthier one?

I think you are right, that it might not be a good idea to block off the hurt. I do think I have a right to be hurt or indignant over how unfair all this has been, but I just don't want to dwell on it. I think that might put me back mentally into the triangle, and I want far, far away from all this dysfunction, and anger coming from that direction.

I have always seen that this is NOT my issue, and it's just being projected onto me. I guess I just wish BPDh had the slightest amount of loyalty or devotion. He just seems to lack those emotions where our marriage is concerned.
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2015, 08:30:44 AM »

so I really don't have access to her anyway. I guess I'm already out of the triangle? 

CB,

Looking forward to catching up on what is new in your life!


Confessions:  I'm still struggling with drama triangle... .so this is partly a "point" and partly a question as I try to sort out triangles and how to "deal" with them.

For me (and I believe for you)... .it is best to assume that you are "stuck" in a triangle rather than trying to convince yourself that a triangle doesn't exist.  For me... .that seems to help force choices... .rather than me getting to a place where I believe I don't "have to" make a choice (denial).

In all likelihood... .the daughter will be involved in your life in some way... .shape or form for as long as you have a r/s with your husband.  Therefore... .you have choices to make about your "role" in the triangle.  More specifically... .you then get to focus on "getting to the center"

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

The center contains elements of the corners... .small elements (my understanding and interpretation)... .so... in this situation (CB not being told)... .I think there is an honest place that she needs to come from and play a small victim part by expressing hurt at being left out. 

Say it evenly... directly... .and be done with it... .don't dwell.

There may be a small part of persecutor to play as you clearly lay out expectations or possibly future consequences of your husband "hiding" things... or forgetting.

Perhaps "Your revealing this at the last minute is a source of strain (hurt) in the r/s"  (probably need to sweeten up this wording... .but yes... there is an element of shifting things where they belong here... .he did it... his choice... .he may see it as "blaming"

Then... .finally... .there is a small appropriate part of rescuer to be played.

Somehow by offering forgiveness... .putting this in the past and moving on... not dwelling. 

The key seems to be to identify appropriate parts of each corner... and push to the center with that... .all while being "even" in the discussion... .so as to minimize drama.

Thoughts?

MaybeSo and others that are more experienced in sorting out drama triangles.  Is this type of analysis and decision making how you guys go about it? 

FF
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2015, 12:37:54 PM »

I can't change BPDh, and I can't change the rotten situation we are in

it's true you can't change him, only he can do that (as if, right?). You can change the rotten situation, because you are a part of it. I used to take a lot of what my wife did personally because it seemed so directed towards me. As I understood her behavior more I could accept that it was just noise and was more able to distance myself from it. Do you feel you need the emotional investment into his (and his daughter's) antics?
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2015, 02:05:08 PM »

 

Hey... .you can change your husband... .in a round about kinda way...

You have more direct control over your situation than you do your husband... .

Healthy choices and actions... done consistently... .will change the dynamic... .we can't control the exact change... .but likelihood of your husband not changing is very low... .

FF
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2015, 10:00:53 AM »

Excerpt
Whether we know it, or not, most of us react to life as vic­tims. When­ever we refuse to take respon­si­bil­ity for our­selves, we are uncon­sciously choos­ing to react as vic­tim. This inevitably cre­ates feel­ings of anger, fear, guilt or inad­e­quacy and leaves us feel­ing betrayed, or taken advan­tage of by others.  Lynn Forrest The Three Faces of Victim

This fits perfectly with radical acceptance, too. 
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 10:23:24 AM »

Well, I don't see myself as a victim, although I think they try to perpetrate mean acts upon me. I think feeling victimized is something we choose. For BPDh, it's a constant choice. He must like to feel like a victim. I could choose to feel like a victim, but I think I always have a choice in how I feel. I feel I'm stronger emotionally than any of the others in this triangle, and I feel I'm the only one trying to make healthy choices.

I am disgusted, and out of patience with all of it. I got put in this triangle, but this is all new to me. We don't do the whole drama triangle in my family of origin. So, I'm learning as I go along, and for now, I'm going to follow Form Fliers advice, and see how that works.

Their choices, are theirs, and they are the ones who have ownership of them(not that they'll actually own it). They try to project them onto me, but that only works if I engage, right? Don't pick up the gauntlet, and they are stuck holding it.

I think I'm a little stuck though on how my actions might change BPDh's. I've been withdrawn from this situation, as in no contact with his daughter(she refuses to be around me), and he keeps modifying his behavior to suit HER. I don't see that I have any options? I can do all you say, but we've been status quo on that for some time now(over a year), and there have been no changes. I think this hateful daughter would be perfectly fine to live out the rest of our lives this way. She snaps her fingers, Daddy comes running, and she gloats because she knows I'm "not allowed" as per HER edict. The whole thing sickens me.

How will my doing the suggested(as per Form Flier's adice, which I like), help to create some changes? I'd like peace, for BPDh's sake, and for all of us, but I don't forsee that happening due to how PD his kids are too. Am I just better off never being around them? Well, I know I am, but I'd like peace because I know at some point they'll probably give him an ultimatum: her or us. I'd bet they'll be so bold as to tell him he HAS to divorce me, and I'm not sure that didn't already happen, and it could be why he walked out last time(although his BPD symptoms were off the charts back then)... .
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015, 10:30:28 AM »

If you are a victim, then anything you do, no matter how awful is "justified" and it is up to the person who is "hurting" you to change, be sorry, and take all the blame.

There is a lot of motivation for someone who is disordered to decide they are being victimized.

There have been a few long time members here posting about the karpman triangle. Stepping off of the triangle and leaving the BPD or whoever got sucked into it, to sort themselves out is the only real positive way forward.

Your husband wants to have all of this drama, walk away when he does it. Hard to do, because most of us have strong urges to defend ourselves. JADE and you are suddenly on that triangle.

I run into this with my boyfriend. I have been all over that triangle and even if I am not talking to him, mentally and emotionally I am there. It has created deep suffering for me.

He was my hero, too.  Like your husband was yours. 
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 08:22:58 AM »

Hi Ceruleanblue,

I can't change BPDh, and I can't change the rotten situation we are in, so I need ideas on how I can feel better about it. What I can do.

BPDh withheld the fact that he is doing lunch today with his daughter who refuses to be around me. He said he wanted a "nice weekend", and that was why he didn't tell me. Honesty, and disclosure have been a huge issue in our marriage. He often lies in regards to his kids, and his kids are also fed up with his lies, which is ironic, as they are just as bad. He refuses to tell his daughter that he's hurt by her refusal to include me, and he also fears even mentioning me to her. Of course, all this hurts, and at this point, angers me. He's allowing it.

His D does not like you. Your H can't maintain a boundary with his D. You feel hurt and anger.

Do you truly accept that his D does not like you and that your H is weak? How is that reflected in what you say, do and feel?

I'm asking as

- your H behaves as if he has not gotten the message.

- a typical response may be "hmm, he seems not to get the message. Frustrating. He is still playing childish games". But you have stronger feelings... .

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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 11:19:51 AM »

Well, I do sometimes manage to just feel the way you described, but other times, my feelings are a lot stronger because BPDh tries to rope me back into the triangle. I can't just write his kids off, because they are his kids, no matter how dysfunctional. As it is now, they refused to be around me, so it's like a reprieve, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)... .

I also realize it isn't personal. His D's would likely not like anyone, and their mother is in the background rewarding them for hating me. They get her love and approval by being hateful, and they learned to cut people out of their lives from an early age, as it's what their Mom does. It's all just so sad that they choose to live this way. It's also sad that BPDh refuses to see that boundaries could really help in all of this. It's sad that he doesn't feel her deserves to be respected, and he lets his kids control his life.

There isn't anything I can do about all this, as I can only change ME. I'm hurt at times, but I think in this situation, most people would be? I must say though, it hurts a lot less than it used to. After a while you just become inured to their dysfunction, and just learn to say "hmm, they are both still playing childish games"(BPDh and his kids), as you said.
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