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Author Topic: Going 'just friends' - what issues have you set boundaries over?  (Read 601 times)
Lifewriter16
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« on: September 19, 2015, 01:11:51 AM »

Hi All,

My BPDxbf and I are going to try 'just friends' for a while. He has suggested we do this with a view to becoming more intimate again in the future at a pace that suits us both. I'm reserving judgement on that to a much later date. However, the issue of boundaries has come up immediately, so I realise I have to address this straight away. I'm not sure what my boundaries are or what I should include, so I want to do a little research... .

What are the most important/most useful boundaries you have set with your partner?

What graduated consequences of boundary busting do you use to defend your boundaries?

Thanks & love to you all... .

Lifewriter
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2015, 04:24:36 AM »

I am getting this too.

We haven't discussed boundaries. I already understand that what I am being offered is nothing for me and everything for him. He gets to have me present while he rubs in my face every action I have been against prior: going around with other women, ignoring me, things in my face.

If I were just some friend, why would I care what he is doing with other ladies? None of my business. I am there and he ties my life up and does as he pleases.

I suggested to him that I date other people. He got mad, insulted me and hung up.

Maybe his offer is a good thing. Your friend, my friend. I just feel cynical and hurt.

How do YOU feel about it?
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Lifewriter16
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2015, 11:18:52 AM »

Right now I feel pretty annoyed because I've just received an email from him saying he thinks I've got more invested in this 'friendship' than he has and he can live without me. Well, he can live without me then. I'm really annoyed with him. He didn't like my tone of voice. He said my response was angry and out of proportion with his request. I think I'm going to give up. Now, I just want to cry because this is absolutely bl**dy hopeless.

With love,

A right p*ssed off Lifewriter.
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2015, 12:28:04 PM »

Oh  I am sorry. That was a pretty mean thing for him to say. 

Sometimes when you give people what they want, they sit around a bit and think, oh crap.

Maybe give him that time by himself. Few weeks. I would just go dead silent on him and not be available at all. Let him see how it feels to live without you.

My ... boyfriend... will often change his toon if I say "Ok", and go about my business for a couple of weeks.

I was negative to him about his idea. Later last night, he offered more. Which is he is working on himself, not looking elsewhere for women, and see how it goes. Which is a better offer. I am not sure my resentment levels are low enough atm for much of anything though.
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Lifewriter16
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2015, 12:47:37 PM »

I really need a hug! Lifewriter
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Lifewriter16
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2015, 12:52:07 PM »

He knows what it's like to live without me. We've been out of contact more than we've been in contact since March. All I can conclude is that he's right. I do have more invested in this than he has.

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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2015, 12:53:57 PM »

I really need a hug! Lifewriter

   


When you get a chance... .try to set back... .and look at the dynamics of the interaction.

He says horrible things... .and "wins" by being able to annoy you... .make you miserable... .etc etc.

Well... .if you can detach some... realize that he will do things like this... and make sure you don't have a reaction that "works" for him... .it is likely he will stop doing silly things like this.

For now... .here is another hug... .

 

This is tough stuff... .let's chat more in the future... .and we can help you figure out your next step...

FF
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2015, 12:54:50 PM »

He knows what it's like to live without me. We've been out of contact more than we've been in contact since March. All I can conclude is that he's right. I do have more invested in this than he has. That's why I feel so hurt. Lx

Focus on your feelings... .not his. 

Focus on what you know... .not what he knows... .

Take power back to yourself... .don't hand him power of you

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Lifewriter16
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2015, 01:50:03 PM »

Hi FormFlier

What do I feel?



  • Too distressed for words - I'm struggling to reply.


  • Confused


  • Hopeless


  • Bereft


  • Unloved


  • Useless


  • Misunderstood


  • Sad


  • Victimised




What do I know?



  • I am experiencing tremendous fear of enmeshment. I want my emotional space back.


  • I am more stable without him.


  • I am experiencing triggers whenever we have contact.


  • The chaos and demands that occur when we have contact is stopping me from dealing with core issues.


  • I want to avoid contact with him unless it is face-to-face because it is causing me anxiety and I fear it will end in abuse, rejection and a breakup.


  • I do not currently have the skills to turn this situation around.


  • When I set boundaries, it is causing massive extinction bursts that I just don't know how to handle.


  • I know I love him.


  • I also know that we have come to the end of the road for me.




Lifewriter x
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2015, 01:56:45 PM »

 

   

More hugs... .

Good list.

I'm curious about one of them.  Setting boundaries causes extinction bursts... you don't know how to handle.

Can you expand on this... .what does this look like if I was in the room... ?

Chaos and demands are stopping you from dealing with core issues... .

Same thing... .can you expand on this some... .what does this look like?... .what does it mean... ?

FF
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2015, 02:10:43 PM »

Excerpt
I'm curious about one of them.  Setting boundaries causes extinction bursts... you don't know how to handle.

Can you expand on this... .what does this look like if I was in the room... ?

Chaos and demands are stopping you from dealing with core issues... .

Same thing... .can you expand on this some... .what does this look like?... .what does it mean... ?

This is roughly the pattern. I now know that I felt cut-off because I was so upset at having had to sleep next to him all night when he was cut-off from me. I was trying to say 'No' to seeing him that night so I would have chance to recover from my emotions. Instead, it became a massive breakup. I was so upset by that I couldn't deal with what had been upsetting me in the first place. I became overwhelmed and the underlying issue got lost in the chaos.

Excerpt
The last breakup seemed to follow this pattern (most was by text):

I felt cut-off, withdrawn and depressed and needed time to process my own issues.

He texted to ask when he would see me next.

I asked him when he wanted to see me next.

He said 'tonight'.

I said I felt awful as previous 18 hours together were difficult (he was detached most of the time).

He said perhaps he should stay at home.

I said that would be best.

He started dysregulating. He suggested he shouldn't come over ever again if I didn't want to see him when he was detached.

He accused me of cutting him out and pushing him away and demanded to know when he was going to see me next.

I refused to make an arrangement or rise to the bait.

He tried threatening to break up with me.

I ignored his threat.

He then cycled repeatedly by text through: accusing me of wanting to break up with him; seeking reassurance; telling me it was over; saying how unreasonable and nasty I was being; accusing me of wanting to end it and trying to goad me into finishing with him.

I didn't respond to his texts, but about an hour in, texted him to say I was watching TV.

He continued cycling through the above by text.

I ignored his texts.

He offered to meet me.

I responded and we arranged to meet.

We met in person. He told me what he wanted (more time together to stop him from cutting off from me) and how reasonable it was for him to have that.

I said I couldn't meet those needs because I have a family.

He told me what was wrong with me.

I told him I wouldn't be blamed, it takes two.

He accused me of wanting to end it and of having a date with someone else and tried to force me to end it.

I refused.

He started offering to walk away.

I didn't respond.

He stopped offering to walk away.

He told me what else was wrong with me.

I let the noise of his criticisms be drowned out by the sound of the river next to us and thought peaceful thoughts.

He sat down and started talking to me properly.

I told him I love him but can't cope with his dysregulations.

We arranged to meet.

We left together to go to our individual appointments.

I had a sinking feeling about continuing to be in a relationship with him.

I asked how he would feel about us being friends instead to take the heat out of the relationship.

He said that was what he'd wanted all along and we were only back together because of me.

Apparently amicably, he got the bus home after confirming our meeting.

He sent me an email asking how 'effectively ending the relationship' would solve the insecurity in our relationship.

I replied he'd convinced me in his texts the previous night that I was being unfair to him to encourage him to invest any further emotion in our relationship when I couldn't see us having a future together.

I received an email from him saying I would not see him again and he didn't want to hear from me again and he was going to get on with his life.

I haven't responded as he requested.


When the exchange began, all I wanted when we set out was to protect some time for myself and not have to spend a second consecutive night with him when he was dysregulating. By the end, I wanted out because of his behaviour.

Does this make sense?

Lifewriter
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2015, 02:20:19 PM »

 

Yes... .it does make sense.

Let me challenge you... .give you an assignment.

How long does it normally take him to calm down?

Go back through the text exchange... .please look for "turning points"... .points where you took action... where you communicated... .and then see what happened afterwards.

What would have happened if you said nothing... .? 

What might have happened it you validated an emotion... ?

I'm interested in your communication... because you control that... .you can change that... .in the future.

I'll keep thinking about this exchange... .I think we can point you in a better direction for future things...

FF

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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2015, 04:07:15 PM »

Okay FF, some conclusions:

I thought my BPDxbf's trigger occurred when he concluded that I didn't want to see him because he was detached, but I think the actual trigger was earlier when I, in effect, put him in a position of looking vulnerable by declaring he wanted to see me that night and then failed to accommodate his need when I had implied it was to be of his choosing.

If I had simply answered his question as to when we would meet up next by saying tomorrow or giving him a couple of alternatives, the whole episode would probably not have taken place.

It's not surprising that he concludes that I don't want to see him when I evade the issue. I do that frequently. I do this because I feel completely swamped by him. I barely get a breather between meetings before he's arranging the next one. But, even when friends approach me to make arrangements, I feel swamped. I only really feel safe when I approach others.

There were clearly times when I could have acknowledged how he felt. I just ignored his feelings.

When I shut up, it seemed to help rather than hinder even though he says he can't bear the silent treatment. Am I right do you think?

When I didn't respond to his threats, he stopped and became more reasonable.

Him re-thinking being friends was because I told him there was no future for us.

This is a pretty damning list.

Lifewriter

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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2015, 05:13:29 PM »

I saw something that I was curious about. When he suggested meeting right away, did you feel you couldn't simply have a boundary and enforce it?

"I am really worn out, so can we see each other tomorrow?" or whatever day feels best to you. That would have allowed you hopefully to skip over the remainder of an escalating exchange that leaves both of you feeling kind of hopeless.

What happens if you do that?
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Lifewriter16
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2015, 05:15:52 PM »

I've been so upset this evening. I feel such shame and such sadness. But now I'm going to go to bed and try to sleep it off.

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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2015, 05:19:07 PM »

 
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Lifewriter16
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2015, 05:24:29 PM »

Hi Daniell85,

The whole exchange would have been completely avoided if I hadn't been feeling overwhelmed and fearing enmeshment. I am beginning to realise that I act quite differently when I'm triggered. That appears to be when I lapse into co-dependency.

Well, we live and learn (hopefully). I just had an email dialogue with BPDxbf. I told him how I'm feeling. He heard me and was supportive. Sometimes, I think I'm the 'mad' one and he would be perfectly okay if it wasn't for me. And to bed... .thanks everyone for being here for me on a very difficult evening.

Lifewriter x

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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2015, 05:55:48 PM »

 

Lifewriter16,

Good analysis...

I'll come back later and give some thoughts... .but I think you are on the right track.


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79300

Read over this lesson.  See if it shows you anything about your boyfriend.

Then... .think about times you are tired and don't want to be with him.

Make it about you... ."I am too tired... .I'm going to bed... .I'll contact you tomorrow morning.  Will dream of you... "

Turn off your phone... .sleep. 

Very important you follow through and contact him the next morning.

You want to have your space... and minimize chances of his having abandonment fears.

Stick to this... .

FF

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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2015, 01:01:21 AM »

Okay FF,

I've read the lesson on Fear of Intimacy.

I think that makes sense of something he said to me yesterday in an email when he was talking about not wanting to get back into a relationship with me again:

"I would rather have you as a friend than lose you as a lover".

At the time, I thought: "Eh? I don't get it. Surely by relegating me to 'friend' status, you have to lose me as a lover?"

Reading this statement in terms of the lesson, I think it could mean that he doesn't fear abandonment if we're just friends and so he thinks he can keep me forever than way, whereas his fear of abandonment is so overwhelming when we're closer, that he perceives losing me to be a certainly. Hence he gets to keep my love for him rather than lose it.

It's not going to work like that though, is it? We're surely going to hit massive problems as soon as I try to establish another relationship. But, I'll worry about that later.

For now, I just want to be able to have coffee with him once a week to feel the warmth of the love I have for him and that he has for me. I want to do this WITHOUT having to hand over the rest of my life to him as well. I know that I'm going to cry afterwards until the pain of loss has gone, but that'd be better than never seeing him again. If I can set appropriate boundaries... .

Love Lifewriter
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2015, 06:51:11 AM »

 

Good... .

When we are making these conclusions (I think you are spot on... .)... .we also need to stay flexible in our thinking.

So... even though we think we have it figured out... .you must realize there is guesswork involved.

So... make healthy decisions about how to go forward that work for you... ."oh by the way... " the way I have organized these decisions help if my conclusions about his thinking are correct.

If I have messed up my conclusions about his thinking... .it still works for me... .because I sorted it out for me first.

A BAD way to approach it would be to... .

Organize your life to "help" his thinking... .and that organization doesn't work for you... .

You will end up RESENTING him if you organize around his issues.

FF
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2015, 11:53:28 AM »

Lifewriter: responding to what you said about why you want to venture into "friends" territory: because you want to feel the warmth of his love, without him taking over your life.

I would strongly counsel that you not use the "friends" bucket to try to reconcile those feelings. "Friends" is an excuse NOT to resolve complicated feelings of "love" and "back off," and to pretend they can co-exist. I'd suggest you not use that short-cut. As you note, that will only set you up for a new round of consternation and loss if you (or he, but it sounds like you are the one contemplating it) start a new r/ship. Because doing so may be in line with the formal rules of "friendship," but it is not in line with the feelings of love you still have for him and are encouraging him to maintain for you.

Is there no path where you acknowledge this IS a love relationship not a friendship, AND work on helping him understand what you need from him in terms of backing off and giving you space? As someone who was called a "friend" by a man who I think feels very similarly to how you feel, I know I would have welcomed that. As it was, I was able to lessen his fears of being overtaken by pretty much leaving it to him to initiate contact and to set the pace of our communication. It was fine with me and it worked for us. It IS possible to figure such things out. But man, I wish I had never acceded to the definition of "friendship," because it became a way for him to avoid the implications of the love we did still share, when it was convenient to him to say it wasn't that. I hope you'll more squarely confront the tension in your feelings for him, and find a way to help him understand what you need, rather than collapsing into the unhelpful "friends" non-solution.
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2015, 12:30:20 PM »

Thanks for your concern patientandclear, it's nice to hear from you.

My BPDxbf and I have talked about why we're doing this. We're going the 'friends' route for now by mutual agreement, because the relationship option is causing such terrible pain for both of us (so many triggers, so many breakups). We are both overwhelmed and scared of continuing since we seem to be unable to control the way things are. We are both sure that we don't want to return to the relationship unless the dynamics change. We both feel we have suffered too much hurt at each other's hands.

We hope that by stepping back that we will be able to get to know each other, negotiate boundaries, create safety and security for us both and move towards a relationship at a pace we can both cope with. It doesn't sound too hopeful, but I want to be able to say I tried everything. This is a last ditch attempt to try and salvage something from our relationship so we don't lose each other completely.

It may well hurt, but I am discovering that every wound opens up the doorway to a similar childhood wound which I am then able to express and heal. I wouldn't be writing any of this, though, if my BPDxbf hadn't had 2 1/2 years in therapy and didn't have the capacity to reflect. He frequently comes back with new insights after his dysregulations. If we could manage those better, put less emphasis on them, perhaps there's hope. Meanwhile, I'm attending to me own healing. It is our only hope and we both know that, I think.

So, it's apparently not really 'just friends' after all. The drama of yesterday, seems to have been because he had a big dysregulation over it for some reason... .and then it triggered me. Oh joy!

Love Lifewriter
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2015, 12:51:05 PM »

 

I'm curious about your use of the term  "negotiate boundaries"

How is that different than "establish boundaries"?

FF
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2015, 01:05:18 PM »

Stepping back and taking it slow makes complete sense.  I think it's helpful to recognize it is not a "just friends" arrangement, as that can create confused expectations that are really, really unhelpful.  Pre-eminently, the question of whether either of you are going to explore seeing other people.
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2015, 01:51:56 PM »

formflier,

I use the term 'negotiate' rather than 'establish' boundaries because my BPDxbf has some boundaries he wants to establish too and I think the first one will be "Never hurt me" as he once told me that's a deal breaker for him. Obviously, I'm never going to be able to live up to that, so we need to negotiate that one to find something realistic and achievable. Partly it's about understanding what he actually means by his boundaries and what constitutes an infringement. I suspect we may have a conflict of boundaries over text messages. He says I should always respond to his text messages, I feel hounded by them and can't agree to that one. I also use that term because my BPDxbf needs quite a lot of control and I think he'll be more likely to respect boundaries if he's had some input in defining them, or if not respect them, I'll have my weight behind me when he infringes them because he's agreed to them. I will determine my bottom line in advance though.

patientandclear,

I think you're right, my BPDxbf and I need to expressly acknowledge that it's not really 'just friends' so the normal rules of 'friendship' don't actually apply and we need to define which rules do apply to our special arrangement. I'll bring up the issue of seeing other people but basically, I'm not looking for anyone else that right now and I'd be surprised if he was. Having said that, if he did start seeing someone else, I could handle it and would step back. If I met someone else, I'd tell him and we'd have to have a conversation about whether we wanted to continue as friends or go our separate ways. I won't cheat on him. If I was going to do that, there would be no point in our 'therapeutic separation'. I can't imagine he'd cheat on me either, he is no casanova. That's one thing that seems very different about him than other pwBPD, he doesn't hop from source to source. I'm wondering if this all sounds very foggy. Basically, we've got lots of details to iron out.

I know the chances of this going well are slim. I'll probably be back here in 7 days with my 8th breakup, but at least I will have done everything I was prepared to do.

Love Lifewriter
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2015, 03:26:18 PM »

 

Lifewriter16,

"negotiate"... .and "boundaries"... .really don't mix well. 

Please read through some of the lessons below before you bring any of this up to your significant other.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries


The most critical thing in here is to be consistent.

If a boundary is inconsistently used... .IT IS WORSE THAN HAVING NO BOUNDARY AT ALL

.

Luckily... when I was new here... some senior members "got to me" and convinced me of this early. 

I set... and held my first boundary... .and to this day... .I am slow to set them... with lots of deliberation... .but once set...

Protect them like Fort Knox.

Note:  Boundaries are for you... .and your values.  You significant other will most likely not like them... that is not your concern.

Last note:  Beware your SO's boundaries.  "never hurt me" is a manipulative boundary. 

A boundary is to control "your stuff"... .not other people.  It appears his goal is to control the behavior of others.

Let's talk more after you read the lessons...

FF

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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2015, 03:29:57 PM »

I also use that term because my BPDxbf needs quite a lot of control and I think he'll be more likely to respect boundaries if he's had some input in defining them, or if not respect them, I'll have my weight behind me when he infringes them because he's agreed to them. 

Replace "need" with want... .

You are setting yourself up for future DRAMA here.

"you agreed to this... "

"no i didn't... I agreed to xyz... "

"yes you did... .we wrote it down... "

etc etc.

Note:  You don't need anything from him to do boundaries... or enforce them.  If you believe you need something from him to do this... we should talk.

Most likely you are trying to do a boundary... .on something that is not "yours"

FF
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Lifewriter16
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: GF/BF only. We never lived together.
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2015, 05:29:08 PM »

Hi formflier

Excerpt
Note:  You don't need anything from him to do boundaries... or enforce them.  If you believe you need something from him to do this... we should talk.

Most likely you are trying to do a boundary... .on something that is not "yours"

Yes, I do think we should talk because every time I have attempted to set boundaries, it has gone wrong and most times led to a breakup. We've been emailing ideas this evening and here are his comments about two areas that bother him:

"I would like to suggest we try to let each other know if we've been triggered, rather than going off to deal with it. When we're triggered is when we need most support, so lets support each other and allow ourselves to be supported.

Of course we need to respect the fact we'll need time to process things, but lets try to maintain supportive contact during those times."


This sounds quite innocent and quite reasonable, but actually, I suspect it is a massive issue and it is potentially a very big trigger for both of us. He wants me to deal with stuff with him and to reply to every text he sends. He says I'm cutting him out or pushing him away. He says he gets very anxious when I don't reply to his texts as his mum used to give him the silent treatment. He dysregulated badly when I refused to let him come and look after me when I was feeling ill one day and did the same when I was feeling depressed and told him I didn't want him to come over. So there's me feeling ill and needing to look after myself and feeling depressed and miserable and I have to deal with his stuff. This latter situation led to a breakup. He said I treated him appallingly.

I want to deal with stuff on my own because I simply can't focus on me when he is there, whether he is getting upset or not. I just need isolation to connect with my feelings. He says he'll allow me processing time as long as I text him to let him know what's going on. It feels like I'm having to ask his permission and I don't want to be answerable to him for the minutea of daily life. I feel controlled and I hate it. Yet, I don't want to be disrespectful to him. But, quite frankly, no one else has ever made these kind of demands on me. They are not part of a normal relationship or even friendship, in my experience. I am happy to dedicate the time we spend together to him and keep in controlled contact, but I want the rest of my life back. I want to stop thinking about him 24:7. I don't want to be in constant contact.

Texting has been responsible for many, many of our arguments. At the moment, texting isn't a problem because he can't text because he doesn't have my mobile phone number having deleted it after our breakup. I feel inclined to withhold it permanently, but he will eventually dysregulate over that. He tries all sorts of things to get me to back down and it usually ends in threats of b/up at the very least.  When he can text, he tends to text randomly during the day, but this causes me great anxiety because I don't know what's going on at his end and whether he's triggered and I'm walking into the lions' den. And, he interrupts MY time. If he's already upset, it can escalate into blame and breakup really quickly. So, I never know when it's coming. I panic whenever the text alert goes. I'm just beginning to stop reacting like that so I don't want to go there again. Yet, he's trying to say I should support him when he's triggered. No, I don't want to do that. My days get consumed by him.

I could say I'll reply to his texts at certain times only so he has to deal with his own problems. Is that reasonable in this day and age? He won't think so. I guess I'm just going to have to accept that he won't like me boundaries and he'll be off again because he thinks they mean something significant about him. In a way they do, I'm scared of texting, it has become and instrument of abuse and emotional torture. If it weren't for the rest of my life, I'd discard the d*mned phone and tell him it was broken.

I really do need some help with this.

Thanks

Lifewriter

PS I've only just seen your first post. I'll read the lessons tomorrow.
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formflier
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2015, 05:47:08 PM »

Texting has been responsible for many, many of our arguments. 

Yep... .I am with you on this one.

I rarely... .RARELY... .text about r/s stuff with my wife.

It used to be a huge battleground... .until I stopped.

This was a boundary that I learned about on bpdfamily... .and then I set it... and held it... .and my r/s is much... .MUCH better because of it.

We still text... but it is logistics stuff... 2 gallons of milk... .please pickup little johnny... I'm running late... .that kind of stuff.

I would ignore any "text bombs"... .and I also put the subject matter off limits as well.  So... .if she would blather on and accused me of stuff in a text... .I also would not listen or "deal with it" in person.

I would only "deal with" issues that were raised in a respectful manner. 

Note:  She hated this (at the time).  Claimed I didn't care... .hated her... blah blah... .

Now:  For the other side... .that likes texting.  Some on here have found that they can consider a text... .craft a validating statement back... and have some success.  They can also slow things down via text.

I don't recommend it... .but there are some that have made it work.

More later... .you are on the right track.

FF
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Lifewriter16
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: GF/BF only. We never lived together.
Posts: 1003



« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2015, 11:38:15 AM »

Hello All,

Here' a surprise - he's dumped me already! I didn't even make it to a week.

Lifewriter x
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