Have you lost respect for your loved one with BPD?

[Cat Familiar]

I don't know how to re-create the respect I originally felt for my husband. I think respect is earned, not given, and I have too much history with him behaving in ways that don't match the original persona he presented to me. Much of this is related to alcohol abuse.

He is doing marginally better, and I do appreciate the good things he brings to my life. However I see myself as being a cynical observer of his behavior nowadays. I watch as he tries to bring his A-game to people he doesn't know and would like to impress, while he freely behaves in a depressed, careless manner around me. I guess he trusts me enough to be himself.   

Anyone have ideas about how we can learn to appreciate our loved ones a bit more?

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[formflier]

 

I struggle with this too...

Currently... I try to focus on doing fun stuff... .create good memories... .and hopefully that will crowd out the bad memories.

Plus... the bad behaviors are way better... .waaaayyy better.


Cat Familiar,

If I remember correctly... .drinking is a big issue in your r/s... .right?  Maybe some things he does indicates he doesn't respect himself... .(again... .from my memories of your stories)

That's tough for people to respect those that are very obvious about not respecting themselves.


FF

[bluesnail]

I do lose respect for him when he is in the midst of an outburst, especially when I'm the target of his words.  It takes a while for me to trust and love him again.  But I'm hoping as I learn to deal better with his BPD things will get better.  I feel I understand him so much more since I've been learning about this.  By boyfriend isnt a big drinker though.  I don't think I could take it if he drank a lot too.  Because the alcohol just covers it all up, and then he can always choose the booze over me. 

Maybe you could approach the drinking problem first, and if he can lay off drinking, all you have to deal with is the BPD, which could get better if he stops drinking.

[Cat Familiar]

That's tough for people to respect those that are very obvious about not respecting themselves.

Thanks, formflier. You've nailed it. He was so brutally abused by his narcissist dad and he's now continuing the abuse (to himself) even though dad is dead.

I'm glad that the bad behavior is better in your relationship. It is better in mine as well. It's just weird to feel "meta" to the relationship, as though I constantly have an overview, but I'm not as participatory as I was when I was blissfully ignorant, or rather not "blissfully"--just ignorant.

I've tried to address the alcohol issue, bluesnail and it's really been a difficult issue. Due to the BPD, my expression of feelings on his alcohol use have just added to his shame burden. So I have to adopt a hands off attitude. It's his addiction, his problem. He is seeing a therapist now, so I think some of the core shame issues have a chance to be addressed.

My therapist told me about "Motivational Interviewing" which is a technique clinicians use for addiction. I'm not intending to be his therapist, but it's an interesting modality of asking questions without introducing any of my personal bias. Google it if those of you who have a loved one with addiction issues and are interested in having another skill set for communicating with them. There are YouTube videos.

[flowerpath]

I tried very, very hard not to lose respect for my husband. 

It's nearly impossible to respect someone who displays verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical violence, lack of responsibility, and/or consistent alcohol abuse and all of the other behaviors that stir up trouble in your life. 

How can you recreate respect unless there is an increase in the kind of behaviors that you admire, so much so that they outweigh the unpleasant behaviors, so much so that you have what you feel is a normal life and you look up to that person in your life? 

You just can't pull respect out of thin air.

Since we can't control the behavior of the person with BPD, gaining respect is really in that person's hands rather than in our hands to recreate. 

It doesn't seem like a lot compared to admiration and respect, but I try to really pay attention to and be thankful for the times that BPD is not so evident. 

[an0ught]

Hi Cat Familiar,

I don't know how to re-create the respect I originally felt for my husband. I think respect is earned, not given, and I have too much history with him behaving in ways that don't match the original persona he presented to me. Much of this is related to alcohol abuse.

I would agree, respect is earned. But the opportunity to earn is given.

He is doing marginally better, and I do appreciate the good things he brings to my life. However I see myself as being a cynical observer of his behavior nowadays. I watch as he tries to bring his A-game to people he doesn't know and would like to impress, while he freely behaves in a depressed, careless manner around me. I guess he trusts me enough to be himself.   

Sounds like there is still some work on boundaries before you. He may be depressed and that is his right but there are limits to how this should affect others close by.

Anyone have ideas about how we can learn to appreciate our loved ones a bit more?

Validation - touching areas you shied away before

Validation - sharing some information you typically hold back - taking some risks

Boundaries - respecting him: Letting him making choices alone incl. all the consequences that come with it

What sort of relationship do you want Cat? I don't think you want to go back to the beginning. Do you have a an idea where you want to steer towards? The clearer the vision the better you can model that behavior today.

[waverider]

I can care, I can support, I can enjoy her company and our time together, I can see the pluses in it for me.

However, I find admiration difficult when responsibility and obligation result in lack of genuine personal effort.

Admiration is the corner stone of respect.

Lack of deep seated respect has fallen under the banner of acceptance. No amount of magical thinking is going to change this.

Acceptance prevents this turning into resentment. It's just the way it is, it is a disorder and respect is often one of the casualties, I can live with that.

[formflier]

 

Cat Familiar,

Do you drink much?

For me... .I find it much easier to "cut someone some slack"... .if it is an area that I struggle in.  

So... I can get frustrated and mouth off ... . It's usually not directed at someone... but... people will have no doubt I'm frustrated.  Listen... I'm a Sailor (even though I'm retired).  Cussing something that is broken is acceptable troubleshooting technique in the Navy... .I swear it works (   ) 

Get it... ?  I swear it works... .  (OK... .still on first cup of coffee... .)

So... with that in mind... .I can understand dysregulations... .and I don't lose respect so much when that happens.

However... ."the truth" is a big deal for me.  Personally and professionally.  "Bearing false witness"... .is... IMO... one of the worst sins because of how it impacts another person in the community.  (Yes... .I know we are not supposed to "grade" or "rank" sins... .)

So... .when my wife accuses me of being married and having secret children that I have snuck on insurance... and we go to insurance office and check records... .

Well... .that is where I lose respect.

Over the years it has helped that some of the stuff is so preposterous... .that I can blow it off.  

Plus... now I get it that feelings overwhelm my wife's ability or desire to "deal with" the truth.  That is who she is... .

Up to me to figure out how to deal with it...

I still struggle with how to deal with it... .and... .unfortunately... .even though I "understand" this... .I don't respect her because of this.

Luckily... there are parts of her life that I do respect and admire... .I try to focus on that.

Hope this helps... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for all the replies. You've given me a lot to think about.

How can you recreate respect unless there is an increase in the kind of behaviors that you admire, so much so that they outweigh the unpleasant behaviors, so much so that you have what you feel is a normal life and you look up to that person in your life? 

You just can't pull respect out of thin air.

Since we can't control the behavior of the person with BPD, gaining respect is really in that person's hands rather than in our hands to recreate. 

Good point, Flowerpath. I cannot make myself feel someway I don't (to quote Bonny Raitt). I can, however, notice the good things he does and appreciate them.


anOught, you're correct. He is depressed. That is his right. I'm learning how codependent I've been all my life and through counseling, I'm getting freer of that. However, it is unpleasant to be around someone who is depressed and who seems to want others to wallow in misery with him. I'm learning to have better boundaries about this.

Good point about validating: Validation - touching areas you shied away before

Validation - sharing some information you typically hold back - taking some risks

Boundaries - respecting him: Letting him making choices alone incl. all the consequences that come with it

And you're correct, I don't want that original idyllic painted white relationship. It was false, though incredibly enjoyable at the time. I'll have to think about what I want our relationship to be. Definitely more intimate than it currently is.


I can care, I can support, I can enjoy her company and our time together, I can see the pluses in it for me.

However, I find admiration difficult when responsibility and obligation result in lack of genuine personal effort.

Admiration is the corner stone of respect.

Lack of deep seated respect has fallen under the banner of acceptance. No amount of magical thinking is going to change this.

Acceptance prevents this turning into resentment. It's just the way it is, it is a disorder and respect is often one of the casualties, I can live with that.



Thanks, waverider. I do enjoy his company at times and there are definite pluses. It's the irresponsibility that grates on me. Fortunately he is responsible financially, unlike my first husband. I think having back to back spouses with BPD has made me judge him a bit unfairly. I struggle with acceptance. I realize that I'm a judgmental person, but it is definitely a worthy goal to accept rather than resent.


FF, I'm not much of a drinker (one drink is plenty--maybe two glasses of wine on a weekend) and I grew up in a family where alcohol was demonized. My vice is to shoot off my mouth and you've definitely seen me do it here. I try to be more discrete in my real life, but I, like you, value the truth and I have a hard time not being upfront about what I think and feel. Lately, I'm learning another option of not saying anything, but it really goes against the grain. However, I'm discovering that it is a valuable tool quite often.

I'm a "thinker" rather than a "feeler" so out of control behavior is really abhorrent to me. Like you, I'm now realizing that my spouse cannot easily control his feelings and lately I've learned not to fan the flames.

I guess I need to focus on the "parts of his life that I do respect and admire."  Thanks!

[flowerpath]

However, it is unpleasant to be around someone who is depressed and who seems to want others to wallow in misery with him.

Yes, it is.  There is so much about this that is hard. 

Funerals are over within hours, but the death of what I thought my life was going to be like... .what I want my life to be like... .can come back day after day, just like this BPD does, and I will wallow in my own misery - resentment included - unless I catch my thoughts and re-frame them. 

Easier said than done.

For me, the road to radical acceptance wasn't instantaneous the way I first thought it was going to be.  It has been a long one and I'm still on it.  Detachment has been a big positive step for me. It almost felt like indifference at first, but I realized that it's not.  He does push at the boundaries, but my h has figured out that I'm not going to be a co-owner of his thoughts.

In addition to thankfulness for the good moments, taking a close look at how I let this BPD encroach on the way I was living out my own personal world, and reclaiming what I used to enjoy in life has helped me too.  I think it has helped me to become less resentful. 

[waverider]

However, it is unpleasant to be around someone who is depressed and who seems to want others to wallow in misery with him.

Yes, it is.  There is so much about this that is hard. 

Funerals are over within hours, but the death of what I thought my life was going to be like... .what I want my life to be like... .can come back day after day, just like this BPD does, and I will wallow in my own misery - resentment included - unless I catch my thoughts and re-frame them. 

Easier said than done.

For me, the road to radical acceptance wasn't instantaneous the way I first thought it was going to be.  It has been a long one and I'm still on it.  Detachment has been a big positive step for me. It almost felt like indifference at first, but I realized that it's not.  He does push at the boundaries, but my h has figured out that I'm not going to be a co-owner of his thoughts.

In addition to thankfulness for the good moments, taking a close look at how I let this BPD encroach on the way I was living out my own personal world, and reclaiming what I used to enjoy in life has helped me too.  I think it has helped me to become less resentful. 

Ditto to all of that

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .I try not to think too much about what the future will be like.

I'm hopeful... .and I know it will be better than before I knew about BPD and lessons and all that.

However... .sometimes it's better (for me) to focus on the next steps... .rather than how hard the journey will be...

Kinda like guys that try to do long trail hikes will focus on doing 18 miles the next day... .but don't dwell on the 1000 miles left until the end.

FF

[Notwendy]

I get what you are saying Cat, and I think it's a process. I spent time "grieving" the loss of the dreams I had for a relationship where we could have heart to heart talks, and over time, once I let go of the things I didn't believe could happen, the grief, loss of respect, diminished and I find myself as times feeling admiration and gratitude for the relationship I do have, the real one, not something I imagined.

I think it is Sweetheart who described this situation as an attachment disorder with the most intimate relationships, which would explain why it seems the worst of it is with their SO, and in my case, it is only with me. This got better when I also began working on co-dependency. I feel a lot less "need" to talk for some reason, and also less of a tendency to step in and do things. Having more space, I guess emotionally, seems to work- I don't seem to be expecting as much emotionally, and I think there is less pressure overall. This feels different than the initial detachment and resentment I felt, but I think that space was necessary for me to work on my feelings, and sometimes I go there.

I would have an issue with drinking, as it was a problem in my FOO and it isn't something I do. I got a better understanding of that from 12 step co-dependency groups, and some of the members were also recovering alcoholics.  When I saw how co-dependency fit into the addiction behavior model, I was able to see where alcohol was just one of many ways to be in this whole picture. I was under the illusion that if I didn't drink, then I didn't have a problem, but that was an illusion. Co-dependency is also a challenge. I still have a dislike for alcohol abuse, but gained some compassion for those who struggle with that.

Looking at myself helps me to stay focused and not worry so much about the flaws in others. When I do that, I can find myself feeling admiration and gratitude for them more. Letting go of resentment is hard, but it helps- it isn't overnight for me- I have to process it. So I do find myself in some angry and resentful times. I have to also just accept that this is something I need to process at the moment.

[Cat Familiar]

For me, the road to radical acceptance wasn't instantaneous the way I first thought it was going to be.  It has been a long one and I'm still on it.  Detachment has been a big positive step for me. It almost felt like indifference at first, but I realized that it's not.  He does push at the boundaries, but my h has figured out that I'm not going to be a co-owner of his thoughts.

In addition to thankfulness for the good moments, taking a close look at how I let this BPD encroach on the way I was living out my own personal world, and reclaiming what I used to enjoy in life has helped me too.  I think it has helped me to become less resentful. 

Yes, radical acceptance is quite a challenge. It's like that metaphor of how to eat a watermelon: one bite at a time. I feel like I'm just starting to nibble at it.

That's a good point about detachment feeling like indifference at first. I think that's where I'm at. And I assumed that indifference was the opposite of love, which I'm now learning it's not.

I've been doing well at enjoying activities that are mine, but my husband has tried to guilt me about this--that I enjoy my friends and animals more than him. Well that's true when he's not bringing much to the table other than his "poor me" self--I don't enjoy that side of him. It would be one thing if he had legitimate things to complain about--health, financial issues, grief, etc. But his life is working well and now he only can wallow in self-pity because he doesn't have the friends he would like or a wife who likes to go on vacations with him. Boo-hoo.

[Cat Familiar]

Yeah... .I try not to think too much about what the future will be like.

I'm hopeful... .and I know it will be better than before I knew about BPD and lessons and all that.

However... .sometimes it's better (for me) to focus on the next steps... .rather than how hard the journey will be...

Kinda like guys that try to do long trail hikes will focus on doing 18 miles the next day... .but don't dwell on the 1000 miles left until the end.

FF

Good point. I guess that since I married another pwBPD and that relationship went so sour, that I worry about this one getting worse over time. However, this husband is much more functional, rational, kind, responsible, etc. so I shouldn't be painting him black [/i]just because he shares the same mental illness as the first.

It's certainly been a learning curve for me, understanding BPD, and having grown up with a mother who suffered from it, I think I was super susceptible to being admired and appreciated, as pwBPD do with their partners in the beginning. And like most of us here, I was shocked to see the other side of this person who I had let into my heart.

But in totality, he is a good person, unlike the first. So I just need to remind myself of that.

[Cat Familiar]

I get what you are saying Cat, and I think it's a process. I spent time "grieving" the loss of the dreams I had for a relationship where we could have heart to heart talks, and over time, once I let go of the things I didn't believe could happen, the grief, loss of respect, diminished and I find myself as times feeling admiration and gratitude for the relationship I do have, the real one, not something I imagined.

Yep, I'm well acquainted with the grieving part of the process. I need to focus on the positives that exist, rather than the things that aren't there. It's just so difficult with the BPD bait and switch modality. And in our case, it didn't happen overnight--it was a slow grinding process where the person I thought I fell in love with disappeared and the man who replaced him emerged: a depressive borderline alcoholic.

I feel like I'm emerging from a low level depression. My energy is returning and I'm getting enthusiastic about projects I want to complete. My husband knew I was a dynamo when he married me, but he likes "hanging out"--basically doing nothing and he started making me feel guilty that I was working so much. When you have animals and acreage and gardens, work is a lifestyle and I love being outdoors and moving around. I was more into "hanging out" at the beginning of our relationship when he was upbeat and fun. Hanging out with an unmotivated depressed person who doesn't want to lend a hand for my projects is just not fun. And I do "hang out" with him in the evenings after I've completed all my chores. Writing this makes me realize that a big part of my issue with him iw that I felt he is not a full partner with me. On the other hand, he does take care of bills. So I do appreciate that.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .the interesting thing that I have learned/am learning is that there is such a wide variation in the way BPD traits present... .and the people that have them.

For me... .I've convinced myself that I am lucky that my wife is so high functioning... .I can work around most issues.

The bad part for me is that her core stuff is centered around paranoia... .which is very tough to "deal with".

Unlikely that she will ever have a "full recovery"... .

I can work with what I have to work with now... .and that's enough on my plate.

Tomorrow will take care of itself.

FF

[formflier]

 

Cat,

I'm a bit jealous of your lifestyle.  We lived on a farm for 8-9 years... .

Now we are in a small rural town (live in town) and have a rented field 15 minutes away for our horse.

With my new flightplan... .we are looking to move to a different state... .and the "in town" versus live on farm debate has come up again.

Ultimately I will be fine with either... .but I would much rather have my animals on same property... .if  we are going to have them.

All four of my girls are madly in love with horses... .so... .you can figure out the chances of us ending up with no horses... .

Sigh... .   

FF

[unicorn2014]

That is what happened to me in my first marriage. In my current relationship I try to focus on the things that my fiance is doing that I can admire, whether in his work, or what he's doing to take care of himself. I think you hit on an important point. If you can not respect your spouse, the marriage will fail. I've also heard if you can't respect the person respect the position, however in my case, my former husband abused his position so that pretty much destroyed that option.

[waverider]

Detaching brings with it a feeling of guilt and failure. learning that it is ok to detach in order to give space for you both to grow goes against human nature and the need to "fix things'.

So it takes time to be comfortable with it.

Respect is much harder with lower functioning pwBPD as there are few achievements and little genuine personal effort to admire.

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I do feel really fortunate to live the rural lifestyle in comfort. I built the infrastructure and husband supports it financially, so I have a lot to be grateful for.

Years ago, I boarded my horses and even 15 minutes away--that's a lot of driving. I vote living in the country. It will save you and your daughters lots of time.

Unicorn, I'm totally in agreement about appreciating what we can in our relationships and I've been concerned about losing respect for my husband. He's out of town for a couple of days so it's a nice break. Dealing with BPD can certainly wear a partner out.

Thanks, waverider, detaching is a new feeling for me. I've always been a fixer. I know I still love him, but he's a different person than I thought he was, so I just need to accept that and find things I appreciate about him, which are many, but it's easy to forget when you've got the BPD burnout.

[Steve4444]

Flower path, what do you mean by detachment? If you mean what I think you mean, my BPDw would come unglued if I detach.  Thank you.

[flowerpath]

Detachment might mean something different to someone else, but for me it has been a process - like peeling off a bunch of BPD brand tape that's wrapped all around me and stuck tight.  

This site has some concise articles about detachment that I'll link to and then give my own example. Today is actually the first time I've seen these articles, but the steps I've gone through - just by reading the lessons and the boards - ended up being the same.

Acknowledgement - Stage 1: https://bpdfamily.com/detaching/01.htm

First, I went through a wide range of emotions when I realized what I was up against. I thought my only option was to leave because I thought that none of this would ever change.

Self-Inquiry - Stage 2:  https://bpdfamily.com/detaching/02.htm

I mentally picked our relationship to pieces from the very beginning- the awfully hurtful, puzzling, and crazy situations that I didn't understand and that had disrupted my life and finally made sense of them. That was the beginning of peace for me.  I thought about all of the reasons I could have been so blind, how I could have been so accepting of behaviors that others warned me about, and saw how I unknowingly contributed to the problems.  

Processing - Stage 3: https://bpdfamily.com/detaching/03.htm

I'm still here.  For me, this has been a combination of accepting that it is what it is, learning what to do and what not to do, and paying attention to what works. And boundaries: until writing this, I never really thought about how boundaries really are a form of detachment. That's where my h comes unglued. I don't text message about feelings/emotions.  I don't do social media with him. I will not ride in a car alone with him if he is driving.  I leave the room if I see trouble coming.  He has something to say about all of them, but they're all to protect me from his behavior, and I really like that I get to make the choice.

Creative Action - Stage 4: https://bpdfamily.com/detaching/04.htm

I took inventory of how I had lost myself in all of this and have started making changes to get some of my old self back.  My h was very critical of some of my habits that were actually strengths, so I had stopped doing them to avoid the criticism.  I'm reclaiming those things a little at the time, and have started doing activities I used to enjoy.  Most of these things I do by myself because my h isn't interested in doing them.  I'm also putting time into learning some new skills - even though he gets some verbal digs in about it.  At this point, this is where most of my energy is in terms of detachment.  I'm working on making a better life for myself separate from our relationship, but still within our home.    

Freedom - Stage 5: https://bpdfamily.com/detaching/05.htm

Well, on a scale of 0 - 10 with acute suffering being a 0 and peace being a 10... .never really thought about rating it this way.  I wouldn't say that we have a really great relationship, but in spite of that, most of the time, I'm content with life in general.

[formflier]

Flower path, what do you mean by detachment? If you mean what I think you mean, my BPDw would come unglued if I detach.  Thank you.

One of the reasons that your pwBPD would "come unglued" is to try and get you "back in line".

Back to the normal way of relating.  If you are not happy with the normal way of relating and conversations coupled with action are not part of your r/s, then it is up to you to be in charge of YOUR r/s.  Regardless of the reaction of the pwBPD.

That is part of detachment.  That you can take appropriate independent action and not have your happiness depend on their emotional reactions.

Flowerpath,

Thanks for the great explanation of what detachment means to you.  Very useful.

FF