Definitely the line in the sand -- how much to tell kids?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hey y'all, I'm bouncing back here from the legal board, where I've been for the last few weeks.

In my last post, I was wondering if DH's situation was a line in the sand for him. Short answer: Yes. We've met with a L for the first time, probably not the last 

DH is wondering how much detail to give the kids about what's coming up. Nope, your post in my last thread was really helpful, and DH thinks he'll start there (stuff like Mom & I are making another plan, but we need extra help; it might get stressful to do that work, and sometimes that makes people angry/negative, but you can ask me about what's true, etc etc).  He's wondering, though, how much detail to give SD7 & SD9 -- i.e., in terms of WHY Mom is (probably) going to be more negative than usual    We're thinking of starting with a general heads-up to them, and then hopefully that lays a foundation where when they have specific questions about why Mom is more upset, they could ask, but if not, they wouldn't have TMI.

How much did you guys tell the kids about finally getting a detailed parenting plan? Getting a lawyer? Going to mediation? Why the other parent was flipping out?

Also, what do you guys think about DH communicating something like this to the kids: "you can always ask me if something negative/confusing you hear about me is true, and I'll tell you. And if you hear me say something negative about Mom, you can always tell me, ':)ad, I don't want to hear that', and I'll stop and tell you I'm sorry." Worth it? Or potentially going to backfire?

[kells76]

Hey y'all, I'm bouncing back here from the legal board, where I've been for the last few weeks.

In my last post, I was wondering if DH's situation was a line in the sand for him. Short answer: Yes. We've met with a L for the first time, probably not the last 

DH is wondering how much detail to give the kids about what's coming up. Nope, your post in my last thread was really helpful, and DH thinks he'll start there (stuff like Mom & I are making another plan, but we need extra help; it might get stressful to do that work, and sometimes that makes people angry/negative, but you can ask me about what's true, etc etc).  He's wondering, though, how much detail to give SD7 & SD9 -- i.e., in terms of WHY Mom is (probably) going to be more negative than usual    We're thinking of starting with a general heads-up to them, and then hopefully that lays a foundation where when they have specific questions about why Mom is more upset, they could ask, but if not, they wouldn't have TMI.

How much did you guys tell the kids about finally getting a detailed parenting plan? Getting a lawyer? Going to mediation? Why the other parent was flipping out?

Also, what do you guys think about DH communicating something like this to the kids: "you can always ask me if something negative/confusing you hear about me is true, and I'll tell you. And if you hear me say something negative about Mom, you can always tell me, ':)ad, I don't want to hear that', and I'll stop and tell you I'm sorry." Worth it? Or potentially going to backfire?

[Panda39]

Hi kells76,

In my SO's situation the parenting plan was part of his divorce so the kids were already aware that there would be changes.

But if it were me, I would keep things very general with the kids

I would let the kids know that you will be working with mom on a formal parenting plan and you wanted to let them know. I would not go into detail with the kids about your plan that is something that the adults will be working on. But do let them know that everyone wants what is best for them and you will answer any questions or concerns they might have.  The kids might be concerned about potential changes so be sure to validate their feelings and let them know mom and dad will tell the judge what they think is best for them and the judge will decide. 

Beware that the ex might use the kids as knowing or unknowing spies. (This happened to my SO)  For the kids sake and yours keep discussion about your case between the two of you and phone calls with the attorney out of earshot.

Also be aware that mom might put the kids in the middle.  Using them as messengers or have them ask questions about the case that are inappropriate.

We're thinking of starting with a general heads-up to them, and then hopefully that lays a foundation where when they have specific questions about why Mom is more upset, they could ask, but if not, they wouldn't have TMI.

I think this is the way to go, give them basic information and leave the door open for more discussion as needed.

Others may disagree with me but I think you need to leave out the discussion about mom and her potential reactions when initially bringing parenting plan change up with the kids.  But if the kids have issues with their mom as this process moves forward then have those discussions as they arise.

Are your kids in therapy at all or is there a school counselor that you can talk to about this upcoming change/conflict?  So the kids have some support outside of the conflict.

Also, you might checkout lesson 5 in the box to the right --------------------------------------------------------------->

Take Care,

Panda39

[Turkish]

I agree with Panda about leaving out the discussion about he their mom may react. Focus on your home, and your r/s. Validate as necessary whatever comes up. Let them see, as much as they are able to, at their ages.

[livednlearned]

The best advice I got was to focus on what was happening without talking about it directly.

My kid is whip smart and hated hated being in the middle. But he also needed help navigating that middle space in general. We often get focused on the specifics, but I think we lose with that approach. Going toe to toe with the bio parent locks the kids into the middle. We have to help the kids figure out what it feels like to be in the middle, and give them tools they can use to get out.

I spent a lot of time talking to S14 about the differences between lying, withholding information, privacy, secrecy, and plain forgetting. I would bring up scenarios and then we would talk about them. "If we have a box of popsicles in the fridge, and Jake comes over, wants to know if we have dessert, and you say no, even though we have the popsicles, is that lying?" My son really got into this. I think its' Gardner who recommends this in his book Divorce Poison. He also recommends specific movies that will help you talk to your girls about the principles you want them to understand (I think the movie titles are listed on his website).

Help the girls get good at working through morally ambiguous situations -- especially when it comes to the secrecy/lying/privacy issues. They need practice at figuring out what is real/what isn't real so they can provide their own answers. It's tricky!

You have to be careful about that first general conversation, too. You want some privacy, you might need to keep secrets, and what the girls are working from might be lies. If they come forward with concerns, it's far more effective to validate how they feel. If they say, "Mom says you just care about money" it's tempting to say, "I love you, it's not about the money." But with kids who have a BPD parent, there's a whole other thing going on, which is to lose confidence about what they feel to be true. "Oh my gosh. How did that feel when your mom said that? It would make me really sad if I thought someone I loved cared about money more than me."

My experience with S14 is that underneath his questions was a world of pain about how his dad's comments impacted him. If I believed the questions he asked me, and defended myself, I completely missed the feelings my son was having -- he desperately wanted to feel safe and secure and loved. He needed to know that at least one parent was aware he was feeling something. He trusted me not because of how I defended myself, but because I kept recognizing that his emotions mattered.

Honestly, if there is a silver lining to any of this, it's connecting to the emotional world of my kid more deeply and profoundly than I thought possible.

[scraps66]

"missing" the feelings or opportunities is something I've learned recently.  It all comes down to not taking things personally even if they are directed at you.  If you react with anger (I know from experience) you will spend time wrapped up in that useless emotion expending energy when the kid may be reaching out but just doing a poor job executing because in many case they just don't have the skills to verbalize what they feel.  My S10 can't really tell me what he feels like when he's happy or sad, he knows mad I think, so he has to be taught.  "How did you feel when you had your playdate on Friday, how did it feel to pick our activity on Sunday, etc.   It takes practice, but the yes/no questions are not what you want to ask.

I give ex no benefit of the doubt so when S10 says something that appears to be overheard or had come from his mother's mouth the hair on the back of my neck stands up.  I have to control it because it can stop me from engaging the child in a productive way.   

As far as what to say and what is or isn't appropriate.  I have almost blatantly talked about things ex does, in generalities, but in a constructive way. I don't mention names, don't make comparisons, but you can make up a story that typifies what ex is doing in hopes that the child connects the dots down the road and realizes you're trying to help.  At least this is now my hope for my sitch.

[enlighten me]

I had the opposite problem. My sons lived with their mum and she told them everything and ranted and raged about me to them.

When they asked me what was going on I told them the bare bones. Mum and dad are getting divorced. If they asked more then I would tell them enough to satisfy them without upsetting them or to not worry about it as things would get sorted out. I think they appreciated not having the pressure from my side.

[kells76]

This is good stuff; thank you all a ton. Keep it coming   

So far what I'm taking away is:

Keep it general to lay a foundation

Focus on us & the kids, NOT Mom

Ask plenty of "How did it feel for you when... ." questions

Don't JADE

Don't weigh them down with TMI

Use example situations

So now the heads-up to the kids might sound like DH saying: "Mom and I are working on a schedule for you guys. If you have any questions about what's going on, just let me know, and I'll answer the best I can. It won't change you going to Sport X or Activity Y at all, just so you know."

One worry (among all the others... .sigh... .) is that SD9 may get defensive for Mom right off the bat: "Everything is fine, I like it this way, why do you have to change things", etc. Anyone have ideas on navigating that? scraps66, thanks for the reminder to not take it personally; that'll help... .How could DH & I validate something like that, though?

[Panda39]

One worry (among all the others... .sigh... .) is that SD9 may get defensive for Mom right off the bat: "Everything is fine, I like it this way, why do you have to change things", etc. Anyone have ideas on navigating that? scraps66, thanks for the reminder to not take it personally; that'll help... .How could DH & I validate something like that, though?

How about something like... .

We appreciate you sharing your opinion and we know that change can be hard sometimes but we are looking at what is best for you, your sister, all of us, that's our job as parents.  Is there something that you are worried about that you'd like to talk more about? 

I think you need to strike a balance between letting her feel heard but still letting her know that you (the adults) will be running the show.  Her mom and her mom's feelings are not her responsibility, her job is just to be a kid while the adults work on things.

Panda39

[enlighten me]

Hi Kells

Im not quite sure what the schedule change is and what your intentions are.

From what I can gather. Mum was going to home school the girls and reduce DH time with them. Are you going for more time or for custody?

One thing I would be careful of is showing your hand too early. You don't want the mum to know your plans before you get everything in place.

I would wait until the lawyer has written to mum before explaining too much about the situation. Before that I would just tell them that daddy wants to see them more.

If SD9 kicks up a fuss I would ask her if she would like to see daddy more? Put the ball in her court and let her work through her feelings. Its very easy for kids to repeat what a parent says but hard for them to justify it if its not what they actually want.

[Panda39]

One thing I would be careful of is showing your hand too early. You don't want the mum to know your plans before you get everything in place.

I would wait until the lawyer has written to mum before explaining too much about the situation. Before that I would just tell them that daddy wants to see them more.

I second this.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

One thing I would be careful of is showing your hand too early. You don't want the mum to know your plans before you get everything in place.

I would wait until the lawyer has written to mum before explaining too much about the situation. Before that I would just tell them that daddy wants to see them more.

If SD9 kicks up a fuss I would ask her if she would like to see daddy more? Put the ball in her court and let her work through her feelings. Its very easy for kids to repeat what a parent says but hard for them to justify it if its not what they actually want.

This is really good advice!

Kids with BPD parents are also at a higher risk of developing BPD traits. Some of those traits can include pushing loved ones away when in fact what they want is to be close. Your SD9 may become convinced that her dad is a bad guy, and try to vilify him. She'll get two thumbs up from mom for acting this way. Like Scrapps said, you have to work so hard to not take it personally, and be resolute, don't let SD9 call the shots. You're the parent, she's the child, you want to be in her life. She may be very convincing in her distress about her schedule getting changed, but there's a good chance she's confused about how she feels, and is expressing these feelings in order to take care of her mom.

It's so complex. 

Bill Eddy always talks about minimizing the size of the target. You don't want to give the kids a big target. Less information is better, and validation is best. Correct misinformation when you hear it, but be brief about it or better yet, ask them if that's what they believe.

[kells76]

Hey enlighten me,

To answer your question:

From what I can gather. Mum was going to home school the girls and reduce DH time with them. Are you going for more time or for custody?

Our lawyer suggested, and DH is on board with, not going for any custody change right now. He suggested focusing on getting that PT back and getting a PP signed & filed. In our county that'll probably be a lock; the only question being whether Mom wants it to go the easy or the hard way.

It sounds like some members have experience with the ex continuing to disregard the PP and make unilateral decisions about PT, and that if those examples add up over time, that can translate into a custody change. So down the road, if Mom doesn't work with DH and keeps steamrolling him, I think DH would be open to trying to change custody.

One thing I would be careful of is showing your hand too early. You don't want the mum to know your plans before you get everything in place. I would wait until the lawyer has written to mum before explaining too much about the situation. Before that I would just tell them that daddy wants to see them more.

Good idea; I’ll pass it on to DH.

If SD9 kicks up a fuss I would ask her if she would like to see daddy more? Put the ball in her court and let her work through her feelings. Its very easy for kids to repeat what a parent says but hard for them to justify it if its not what they actually want.

Ooh, this one is a toughie, and I’ll respond to LnL’s take on this in another posting… From my perspective, Mom has “overempowered” the kids, especially SD9, in regards to the time they spend with DH. The message from her to them has been that “they always have a choice” about seeing DH. [Mom has some other oddball things she tells the kids – kind of splits them into overmature (SD9) & undermature (SD7). Has told SD9 that SD9 is “wise beyond her years”   , a few weeks later telling SD7 that SD7 “isn’t a baby anymore” when DH was helping SD7 tie her shoes. ANYWAY…] So the kids are coming from an environment where they’ve been led to believe, by Mom, whom they want to trust, that they know enough to know how much time they should spend with DH. If DH meets that head on with reality (“Actually, you’re the kids, and Mom and I are the adults, and you don’t get to make adult decisions”), that’s really not going to go well, because it’ll chafe at their sense of being “special” and “mature”, and it’ll uncomfortably hint that Mom might not be right about something. So DH is really gonna need to get strategic there.

Enlighten me, putting the ball back in their court could work… I mean, it would definitely show DH focusing on what the kids feel/want… But should he take it down the road of if they say No, I don’t want to see you more, pushing for their justification?

OK, now for LnL in my next post 

[enlighten me]

That is tough when a child is made to believe they are grown up before their time so think they should have grown up decisions.

By putting it the right way and asking them what they think you could play to them being grown up.

" I don't want to spend as much time with dad"

"why not?"

Because mum says ... .

Do you think that's right?

Yes

Whys that then?

Because mum says.

Well what do you think? Your a big girl now.


Something like that maybe?