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theredfox84
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« on: September 20, 2015, 10:47:26 PM »

Out of all the information I've read about BPD (books, articles, posts by real people, etc) an alarming and discouraging percentage of it sadly states that this condition usually cannot be worked through. I ended up here to see what non therapists (i.e. real people in these relationships) have found helpful and so much of it is extremely negative and fatalistic.

The overall energy of people posting in the romantic relationship section in particular is that of "all the poor people who have fell victim to these ferocious and incurable emotional monsters."

What's the point of this website if the majority of it's content is geared to comfort these victims so they can move on from their horrible and abusive relationship rather than focusing on solutions for all involved? This would be especially important for those who are dealing with a BPD family member that they just can't simply dispose of with a break up or divorce.

I know the pain of being a non-BPD and it IS valid to be deeply effected by it. However, just like any other extreme break up (caused by any number of things in which you aren't the person with a mental issue) you can just cry away to whomever will listen until you triumphantly climb your way back up to "that place you deserve free of that individual who brought you down" and go find a normal person.

I read this article:


https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

[Author:

Roger Melton M.A. M.F.T. CEAP

Regardless of how a person with Borderline Personality Disorder alters and tailor their appearance or actions to please others, a failed relationship often presents with a characteristic pattern over time. This pattern may take months or even years to evolve through. In the later periods, the personality often swings back and forth from one phase to the next.

What is the Progression of a Failed "BPD" Relationship? Typically a pattern that evolves through three stages: the Vulnerable Seducer, the Clinger, and the Hater.

Love: The Vulnerable Seducer Phase

At first, a Borderline female (or male) may appear sweet, shy, vulnerable and "ambivalently in need of being rescued"; looking for her Knight in Shining Armor. In the beginning, you will feel a rapidly accelerating sense of compassion because she portrays herself as she "victim of love" and you are saving her. But listen closely to how she sees herself as a victim. As her peculiar emotions advances upon you, you will hear how no one understands her - except you. Other people have been "insensitive." She has been betrayed, just when she starts trusting people. But there is something "special" about you, because "you really seem to know her".

It is this intense way she has of bearing down on you emotionally that can feel very seductive. You will feel elevated, adored, idealized - almost worshiped, maybe even to the level of being uncomfortable. And you will feel that way quickly. It may seem like a great deal has happened between the two of you in a short period of time, because conversation is intense, her attention, and her eyes are so deeply focused on you. Here is a woman who may look like a dream come true. She not only seems to make you the center of her attention, but she even craves listening to your opinions, thoughts and ideas. It will seem like you have really found your heart's desire.

Like many things that seems too good to be true, this is. This is borderline personality disorder.

It will all seem so real because it is real in her mind. But what is in her mind it is not what you perceive to be happening.



Love: The Clinger Phase

Her intense interest in you will subtly transform over time. She still appears to be interested in you, but no longer in what you are interested in. Her interest becomes your exclusive interest in her. This is when you start to notice “something”. Your thoughts, feelings and ideas fascinate her, but more so when they focus on her. You can tell when this happens because you can feel her "perk-up" emotionally whenever your attention focuses upon her feelings and issues. Those moments can emotionally hook your compassion more deeply into her, because that is when she will treat you well - tenderly.

It’s often here, you begin to confuse your compassion with love, and you believe you're in love with her. Especially if your instinct is strong and rescuing is at the heart of your "code." Following that code results in the most common excuse I hear as a therapist, as to why many men stay with borderline women, "

But I love her!" Adult love is built on mutual interest, care and respect - not on one-way emotional rescues.

But, if like King Priam, you do fall prey to this Trojan Horse and let her inside your city gates, the first Berserker to leave the horse will be the devious Clinger. A master at strengthening her control through empathy, she is brilliant at eliciting sympathy and identifying those most likely to provide it-like the steady-tempered and tenderhearted.

The world ails her. Physical complaints are common. Her back hurts. Her head aches. Peculiar pains of all sorts come and go like invisible, malignant companions. If you track their appearance, though, you may see a pattern of occurrence connected to the waning or waxing of your attentions. Her complaints are ways of saying, "don't leave me. Save me!" And Her maladies are not simply physical. Her feelings ail her too.

She is depressed or anxious, detached and indifferent or vulnerable and hypersensitive. She can swing from elated agitation to mournful gloom at the blink of an eye. Watching the erratic changes in her moods is like tracking the needle on a Richter-scale chart at the site of an active volcano, and you never know which flick of the needle will predict the big explosion. But after every emotional Vesuvius she pleads for your mercy. And if she has imbedded her guilt-hooks deep enough into your conscientious nature, you will stay around and continue tracking this volcanic earthquake, caught in the illusion that you can discover how to stop Vesuvius before she blows again. But, in reality, staying around this cauldron of emotional unpredictability is pointless. Every effort to understand or help this type of woman is an excruciatingly pointless exercise in emotional rescue.

It is like you are a Coast Guard cutter and she is a drowning woman. But she drowns in a peculiar way. Every time you pull her out of the turbulent sea, feed her warm tea and biscuits, wrap her in a comfy blanket and tell her everything is okay, she suddenly jumps overboard and starts pleading for help again. And, no matter how many times you rush to the emotional - rescue, she still keeps jumping back into trouble. It is this repeating, endlessly frustrating pattern which should confirm to you that you are involved with a Borderline Personality Disorder. No matter how effective you are at helping her, nothing is ever enough. No physical, financial or emotional assistance ever seems to make any lasting difference. It's like pouring the best of your self into a galactic-sized Psychological Black Hole of bottomless emotional hunger. And if you keep pouring it in long enough, one-day you'll fall right down that hole yourself. There will be nothing left of you but your own shadow, just as it falls through her predatory "event horizon." But before that happens, other signs will reveal her true colors.

Sex will be incredible. She will be instinctually tuned in to reading your needs. It will seem wonderful - for a while.

The intensity of her erotic passion can sweep you away, but her motive is double-edged. One side of it comes from the instinctually built-in, turbulent emotionality of her disorder. Intensity is her trump-card.

But the other side of her is driven by an equally instinctually and concentrated need to control you. The sexual experiences, while imposing, are motivated from a desire to dominate you, not please you. Her erotic intensity will be there in a cunning way tailored so you will not readily perceive it.

“I love you” means – “I need you to love me”. “That was the best ever for me” means – tell me “it was the best ever for you”. Show me that I have you.

Love: The Hater Phase

Once a Borderline Controller has succeeded and is in control, the Hater appears. This hateful part of her may have emerged before, but you probably will not see it in full, acidic bloom until she feels she has achieved a firm hold on your conscience and compassion. But when that part makes its first appearance, rage is how it breaks into your life.

What gives this rage its characteristically borderline flavor is that it is very difficult for someone witnessing it to know what triggered it in reality. But that is its primary identifying clue: the actual rage-trigger is difficult for you to see. But in the Borderline's mind it always seems to be very clear. To her, there is always a cause. And the cause is always you. Whether it is the tone of your voice, how you think, how you feel, dress, move or breathe - or "the way you're looking at me," - she will always justify her rage by blaming you for "having to hurt her."

Rage reactions are also unpredictable and unexpected. They happen when you least expect it. And they can become extremely dangerous. It all serves to break you down over time. Your self esteem melts away. You change and alter your behavior in hopes of returning to the “Clinger Stage”. And periodically you will, but only to cycle back to the hater when you least expect it, possibly on her birthday, or your anniversary.

Unstable relationships are a hallmark of Borderline Personality Disorder.

Roger Melton is a psychotherapist, teacher and writer in Los Angeles, California. For over twenty years, he has been a expert on the psychological impact of violence, dealing with exploitive-type men or women and managing the dangers of high-stress careers and occupations. He has frequently appeared on television and radio on 20/20 and PBS. As part of opening relations with the Soviet Union in 1989, he participated in mutual training programs at Moscow University.]
[/i



... .Attention(click to insert in post)

SO... .Basically what I get from this is that people with BPD are incurable and threatening people you should avoid relationships with. I've also seen quite a few posts on here where people say "Clearly a BPD individual needs Gandhi or Buddha as a spouse and NO ONE is THAT perfect and we all have OUR needs and blah blah blah."

Yes, you do have needs. You deserve happiness and respect. Because you aren't ill. If people with BPD are largely untreatable, undatable and impossible to maintain ANY type of relationship with unless you're a god or therapist, where should they go? What should they do? Do they not deserve relationships too? If you claim to love these people so much it KILLS you to leave and you just feel so sad... .then you shouldn't. That's not love. They may not be reciprocating in the way you need-but guess what? Due to their disorder YOU aren't either. If they're so messed up beyond comprehension you wouldn't be in love with them. There's a real person in there you love! They need to understand you just as much as you need to understand them.

If to you, a healthy relationship always means smooth sailing with 100% emotional maturity and availability and that people with BPD need an immortal wizard or Gandhi to deal with their disorder then its YOU who has the unhealthy and fantasy like perception of relationships. It looks like to me that YOU are the one searching for a Gandhi, not your loved one.

Let's not see this as fixing someone with a disorder, let's see this as two people trying to understand one another in a world made of billions of personalities, disorders and circumstances. Don't forget yourself in this equation.

xo
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Daniell85
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2015, 10:57:34 PM »

Most of us who come here have core wounds.

i think maybe you didnt realize the intent of the site. It's for us. To come to understanding, heal.

Probably other members can add to that.

i am curious why you would come here to make the post you have made.

this is your introductory post?

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theredfox84
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2015, 11:20:16 PM »

Most of us who come here have core wounds.

i think maybe you didnt realize the intent of the site. It's for us. To come to understanding, heal.

Probably other members can add to that.

i am curious why you would come here to make the post you have made.

this is your introductory post?

All of us have core wounds. I'm sorry you read my post in the way that you did, as a victim. That's the very reason I came here and the reason that was my introductory post. I very much want everyone here, myself included, to come to understanding and heal. I understand the intent of the site, however, I don't agree with the imbalanced and one sided views.

This site is also not just for people in need of healing, mourning or moving on. It's meant to help those of us who are dealing with loved ones with BPD which in a lot of cases are relationships that cannot end or relationships we want to try to keep. This site is meant to help us understand our loved ones with BPD and meet their needs while helping them understand us and meet our needs. It's equally as hard for them to see things in another way.

Any relationship is about everyone working as a team and meeting the needs of one another, regardless of the situation. I would like to remain optimistic and open-minded when it comes to my girlfriend and I don't have to be a victim or punching bag to do so. Please do not make me feel like my post isn't welcome or valid because you do not share my opinion.
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LostGhost
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 01:37:12 AM »

Maybe try the Staying board and read up on some of the communicative tools for these kind of relationships? Your post comes off as persecutory to be honest.

BPD is incurable, correct. It's managed with extensive DBT therapy. And yes, those suffering from BPD can be threatening and in some cases, relationships should be avoided especially if you lack the necessary skills to navigate this type of relationship.

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Infern0
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 02:03:19 AM »

You mention "teamwork" a lot in your post.

And in theory i'd agree however most of us nons find that the BPD's dont go in for the idea of "teamwork" when it comes to relationships and that's why there are so many problems.
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babyducks
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 05:01:36 AM »

Welcome theredfox84,

you raise some good points in your post and I would like to try and address a few of them.

most of the people who arrive here, do so in crisis.   many in the middle of the night and very few ever having heard of borderline personality disorder.

this site welcomes somewhere around 500 new members a months.   frequently those new members make a dozen highly charged posts and leaves the site.   a lot of triage happens with those members. 

I have taken the liberty of cutting pasting the guidelines for the Staying board into this thread, they are from the links found in the box to the right of your screen.

Excerpt
Summary: Understand the thought patterns of a BPD spouse, girlfriend, or boyfriend. Learn relationship building and communication skills and strategies for personal growth.

Audience:  For members who are in a relationship with someone who is suffering with BPD and who want to improve the quality and safety of the day to day family interactions. It is also acceptable to post on this board as you are working through the initial stages of a break-up and you are still communicating or trying to reconcile.

Objective: To improve the quality and safety of your day to day family interactions. 

General Approach: The approach is four-fold: 1) to understand the fundamental struggles of a person with BPD and the challenges that this disorder brings to a relationship; 2) to understand our role in the relationship problems;  3) to learn tools and techniques to help in day to day interactions; and  4) to learn healthy and constructive ways to develop ourselves outside of the relationship.

A relationship with a borderline requires a great deal of strength - the healthy partner must assume the role of emotional caretaker or emotional leader in the relationship. This requires strength, understanding, knowledge and patience. Self-care provides us strength, understanding connects us, knowledge guides the our behavior through which we affect others and determines what is perceived. Patience and time are on our side.

Additional Guidelines for this Board: Please read the community guidelines (see link at the bottom of every thread). The following guidelines are also in effect for this board:

•Please do not urge participants to exit their relationship. Members post here to find solutions to difficult relationships. Please allow them the opportunity.

•Please do not use this board as a place to complain about your partner without seeking constructive relationship advice.  We are here to find solutions.  It is a given that  our partners are difficult.

•We are not victims and this board is not about right and wrong. Please do not  take sides in couples disputes or seek to have other members agree, support or defend your position in your relationship disputes.  This will only serve to polarize matters in your real life and make resolution further out of reach.

Would you like to tell us more about what brought you here?

'ducks



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waverider
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 07:27:13 AM »

BPD relationships are all at different stages, some savable, some not, some already over. This is why we have different boards. It is recommended that members stick to the boards which are appropriate to their own situations and not drift across different boards as it will cause disillusionment and confusion, as you are indicating.

The run messages of which you speak are highly moderated out on the Staying Board for the very reasons you mention. It takes commitment to try to make these relationships work, and yes ownership of our own part in these issues. We work to overcome the poor me victim mentality, but this takes time as many are deeply wounded even before they find out that there is a personality disorder at play.

If you wish to work with peers to help you with your own issues feel free to post about your circumstances and you will find the responses will be geared towards aiming to build better harmony in your own relationship.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 07:47:22 AM »

Excerpt
What is the Progression of a Failed "BPD" Relationship?

The article you are referencing actually specifically is describing the type of r/s with a pwBPD that has in fact failed.  It is not describing a thriving r/s, or a struggling one, or even one on it's way to failing.  The article is about a failed r/s and how it progressed to that.

If you are reading this article thinking it is a general overview of ALL r/s with a pwBPD, yes, I can see why that would sound quite negative.  It is not describing ALL, or even "typical" r/s issues.

It is about a failed r/s.

There is other info more balanced, but yes, not this article as it is meant to be geared toward that one angle.

IMHO:

If this exactly describes your situation, you may want to consider yourself, possibly in a failed r/s.

If this doesn't seem to fit, and maybe seems much more daunting than your current situation... .maybe that is hope for your current situation?

What is your current situation?

What are you seeking help for?

People are here and helpful. 
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 12:57:41 PM »

Yes, you do have needs. You deserve happiness and respect. Because you aren't ill. If people with BPD are largely untreatable, undatable and impossible to maintain ANY type of relationship with unless you're a god or therapist, where should they go? What should they do? Do they not deserve relationships too? If you claim to love these people so much it KILLS you to leave and you just feel so sad... .then you shouldn't. That's not love. They may not be reciprocating in the way you need-but guess what? Due to their disorder YOU aren't either. If they're so messed up beyond comprehension you wouldn't be in love with them. There's a real person in there you love! They need to understand you just as much as you need to understand them.

If to you, a healthy relationship always means smooth sailing with 100% emotional maturity and availability and that people with BPD need an immortal wizard or Gandhi to deal with their disorder then its YOU who has the unhealthy and fantasy like perception of relationships. It looks like to me that YOU are the one searching for a Gandhi, not your loved one.

Let's not see this as fixing someone with a disorder, let's see this as two people trying to understand one another in a world made of billions of personalities, disorders and circumstances. Don't forget yourself in this equation.

xo

I take offense to this.

I did EVERYTHING for my upbdxgf for two years. EVERYTHING. I helped her make a living, I got her to find a couple of good friends (all of her other friends were utter crap - drug addicts all of them, burglars etc). I gave her presents, I told her every single day (multiple times) how much I adored her and found her sexy. I moved 250 miles to be with her. I bought a luxury apartment for us to move into (she didn't pay a dime, and also did not contribute to the household, not paying rent, not going to the store, not cleaning, not making the bed, not ANYTHING). Daily, she would rage at me, kick me, bite me, strangle me, accuse me of cheating, etc.

You are creating a pathetic and false dichotomy here. The alternative is not smooth sailing 100% emotional maturity and availability. Your entire posts sounds like childish projection. I do not have a fantasy like perception of r/s. It is not unreasonable for her to not go cheat with drug addicts in basements, sending hardcore pornographic photos of herself to others saying she wants to be raped, it's not unreasonable that she help pay rent or at the very least make the bed, cook food etc if she can't contribute economically. It's not unreasonable that she has the same standard for me as she does for herself.

I loved her UNCONDITIONALLY (even through her cheating) for two years. Then I had enough.

Yes, LETS see this as fixing... no, wait, not fixing... .LEAVING someone with a horrible, sinister and hellish disorder. My life is working fine. I have good friends, I'm liked, I'm honest, I study and I work, and I have a great economy, my health is good. My uBPDxgf is a prostitute, drug addict, wreck of a human being. You're a fool to believe that we have fantasy like perceptions of relationships. You have NO IDEA what many of us have been through.
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waverider
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2015, 04:40:14 PM »

Any relationship is about everyone working as a team and meeting the needs of one another, regardless of the situation. I would like to remain optimistic and open-minded when it comes to my girlfriend and I don't have to be a victim or punching bag to do so. Please do not make me feel like my post isn't welcome or valid because you do not share my opinion.

This is true, the problem with BPD relationships is that the true nature is not clear at the onset, hence two people enter into in in the belief they are compatible, when they are not. A pwBPD needs a certain type of person to be able to integrate harmoniously with. By the time the reality of the Disorder surfaces, even if severe damage has not been done their partner simply doesn't have ability to cope with the needs of the pwBPd. In short the two are incompatible, it all then escalates from there.

As a result we provide support to attempt to bridge this gap, and if teh gap proves to be unbridgeable then at least, then at least we have an educated knowledge of why, and if the decision is made to end it then it is based on  reality and not just out of frustration and anger. This makes recovery easier and lessons the chance of walking straight back into a similar situation again (which is surprisingly common).

To be honest it is not good either for a pwBPD to be in a relationship with someone who simply doesn't have the ability to cope with it. Everyones ability is different.

The underlying anger that comes through in that article is typical of the result of not being aware of what is happening and consequently not taking actions to attempt to redirect the course of events. It is a progression that we, on the Staying Board, are attempting to halt.
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