I see the long road ahead and don't know if I want to take it

[ArleighBurke]

Married 15yrs uBPDw, 3kids. I have 'realised' she was BPD for about 2yrs.

I guess I thought that with my new BPD knowledge, with knowing how to validate, with understanding her, that perhaps things would be different - better even.

But that was wrong.

I am certainly better. I am nowhere near as stressed as I once was. Nowhere near as confused. I allow myself to enjoy life and am confident in my own thoughts and feelings.

But my relationship still sux. I still can't tell her how I feel, or share my opinion about anything if it differs with hers. She has zero ability to validate me, or entertain that I may be different to her in my beliefs or opinions. SHe still blames ME for all the relationship problems, and always has a reason to not sort out her life. She still doesn't want to go on dates with me, still complains that I don't do enough with the kids, but complains when I DO things with the kids, doesn't look after herself, and yells at the kids for them doing stuff that she does.

I have suddenly realised that these things will never change. No matter what I do, no matter what I learn or how I treat her, she will be the same for ever. And I have to decide whether I can live with that or not. Leaving her would be financially difficult, and leaves the kids with just her at times. Staying allows me to support the kids, but at the expense of fullfulling my own desires and happiness. If I wait until my youngest is 15 before I leave - that's another 10 years!

How do you decide? When is enough enough?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[UndauntedDad]

wk,

I've also been married 15 yrs, 1 son, 9.  I know this is the staying board but to answer your ?, I set myself a limit in 2010, saying, let's give it 5 yrs to get better.  I know, sounds extreme in hindsight, 5 yrs was long.  Got better but not enough, and a family vacation meltdown convinced me that she hadn't changed, really, and probably wouldn't (that was 6/2014).  I spent the next year going to T, coming here, reading books, trying to get her to read books, writing her endless earnest letter about how we had to work together to fix things.  I changed a lot but she changed barely at all, realtionship still celibate and awful.

So I made an internal deadline, it passed, and I gave her the last, earnest letter explaining why I had to leave.  She was devastated, nd since then she's changed a lot (T, DBT classes, etc).  For me, personally, I still feel the need to go.  I crossed a bridge, and no amount of change in her will really allow me to heal.  I have to leave, but that is me.

The thing I wanted to write is, another person might have stayed.  in one of the BPD books I read about limits, everyone has them, everyone's are unique.  I found mine, we crossed them, now I'm not going back.  Another person may have had stretchier ones, or been able to deal.

I thnk the important thing is to find your limits, and stick with them.  I finally gained self respect when I did that, and I can't give that up--too precious.

[babyducks]

hi ArleighBurke,

the decision to stay for me has been a uniquely personal one based on my own individual circumstances.  part of my situation is that my partner is in treatment, is committed to it and is making changes of her own.   all while never mentioning the word BPD.   I feel lucky in that regard, because we are working together to make things better.

in one of the links here it says:

A relationship with a borderline requires a great deal of strength - the healthy partner must assume the role of emotional caretaker or emotional leader in the relationship. This requires strength, understanding, knowledge and patience. Self-care provides us strength, understanding connects us, knowledge guides the our behavior through which we affect others and determines what is perceived. Patience and time are on our side.

It was a tough decision for me to figure out how much emotional caretaking and emotional leadership I could support without damaging myself.   It was a balancing act.   and occasionally it feels like a balancing act on a tightrope.

I am going to suggest two things.   First that you consider visiting  the Undecided board.   The senior members there have first hand and practical experience with working through the steps of making a decision.  The lessons there will help also.  It's perfectly natural to really wrestle with being undecided.   There is a lot on the table.

Second also stop at the Legal Board.   Do some informational reading there.   Which ever way you decide to go you will be prepared with as much detail as possible.

It sounds like from what you wrote that your wife isn't receptive to your emotions or needs when you express them to her?     Since this is the Staying Board, the question that will come up here is, what one thing would have to change to make you feel more dedicated to staying?     Is it possible that now that you are in a better place, less stressed and less confused, more confident that you could do something similar to what UndauntedDad did?   

express your expectations for a better relationship and see if your wife would follow your emotional leadership?

what do you think?

'ducks

[waverider]

Write down in detail where you are at, your thoughts and feelings then set a date say 6 months hence. If you thoughts and feelings have not changed, then that pretty well means you have really only consolidated your thoughts and that should be an empirical trigger for making a decision.

Either choice will be hard, but which choice is going to bring about changes for you? Change is the only thing that is going to improve your life, if your life is lousy then you are not giving tour kids anything to aim for either by example. The martyr path is not a path to teach anyone.

No one can predict the future, but without change there is no real future. The determination of whether there has been any change should be based on facts and not just perception, which in turn ebbs and flows.

The Staying Board is not about hanging in there to the death regadless. It is about committing to learning all you can whilst in a relationship so that if it does fail you will have clarity as to why, and full knowledge of your own limitations.

To leave is not to fail by definition,. To stay by default and not without knowing why is to fail. To make a wise choice is to succeed, regardless of the choice

[ArleighBurke]

Thankyou. I hope to come back with more later.

[ArleighBurke]

I had a deep conversation with my wife last night. I wasn't planning to, it just kinda happenned.

She'd had a horrible weekend: she was sorting out clothes for the kids and said it was triggering her memories of growing up with only donated clothes. It left her feeling crap all weekend.

She opened the conversation with saying that she can't talk to me about how she feels because I don't empathise with her (she says I sympathsise - not empathise). After a while the conversation moves on and I said "I cannot work out how we are supposed to work together. Everything is at opposites - like you want to be social, but you can't socialise. You want to have a close relationship, but it scares you. I guess I always assumed that the things you talked about - your anxieties/triggers - were things you wanted to work on. But recently you've told me that seeing your psych isn't about that - it's about a safe talking place. I can see that being beneficial, but I'm looking into the future and asking what will be different? When do things get better? I want to enjoy life with YOU".

She then launched into a hundred reasons why we can't socialise together and why she can't leave the house.

    - we have kids of different ages (12/9/6), you can't please them all at the same time

    - when the kids move out there'll be less stress

    - you can and have gone camping with S12 by yourself

    - she'd hate to spend 6hrs playing poker with me and my friends

    - I'd hate to spend 6hrs doing craft with her and her friends

    - we need to sacrifice our lives for the kids, just until they're older

    - she can't "leave" the kids with a sitter because she's uncomfortable with that.

    - she can't go to a playground with us because open spaces stress her out

    - she can't invite our friends over because it stresses her to much

It was excuse after excuse. And none of it made logical sense of course.

She also said that the things that she thought she wanted she is now getting comfortable with not having. That she is OK with who she is. So although she's always talked about wanting to socialise more, she's now OK with the minimal level of socialising she does. She's always enjoyed walking, but she's OK with not doing that anymore. She says she's learning this "acceptance" with her psych. I don't know if this is true, or if she is just giving up on wanting to change - it's too daunting/hard. Our last marriage counsellor said to her that there are therapists who could help her work through the issues and gave her contacts. She hasn't contacted any of them.

I see my wife retreating more and more - like she has given up. And I don't think she will ever change.

Can I live with that?

    - Best case: I enjoy life with my kids, taking them camping, biking, playground - all without mum. I'll do home activities as well, but my wife doesn't normally join in because she "doesnt know how to play as a family". I'll socialise with my friends - as a single dad. My wife and I will have home dates, movie nights together, and maybe an OK sex life. And when the kids leave home - wife suddenly becomes stress free and we start to enjoy life together again?

    - Realistic case: I try to enjoy life, she feels increasing left out, alone, abandoned, gets increasingly frustrated/annoyed - life gets very tense. She may or may not get a better psych. In 10 years the kids leave home and she stays as a hermit and we divorce anyway.

    - Alternative: We divorce now. I get to live my life with the kids, perhaps even finding someone else to share it all with. Wife still feels crap - but i'm not there to be the brunt of it - but the kids are. Of course I'm assuming she is fair/reasonable with sharing the kids - which I'd love to say is possible - she doesn't seem vindictive. Finances will get tight. I'll forever be the bad dad for breaking up the family.

How do you evaluate this choice?

[teapay]

My situation is alot like yours and I frequently struggle with that decision.  Married 12 years with 5 kids (10/8/6/3/3).  My wife is classic BPD and has been on meds and in therapy for years.   She has tended to get worse with each kid or each major change.  I figured out she had BPD about a year and a half ago. Subsequently, I read pretty widely on the disorder and tried alot of the tools.  Evenso progress has been slow and relatively low, but there has been some progress on lessening major disruptive behaviors (rages, sub abuse, self-harm, suicide attempts, hospitializations). It tends to be whack-a-molish, though.  When one disappears, another emerges.  Rather than stay home, my wife is always trying the escape home and the stress.

For now I am staying because of the kids, mainly to try and get them across the finish line.  I'd probably fall into your realistic category.  My kid's relationship with their mother seems to be okay, since she doesn't express on them like she does me.  They don't want us to separate.  My biggest worry is my wife modeling maladaptive behaviors for them.  With me gone I'd be concerned they would take the brunt and have no other models or direction.  A BPD trying to raise 5 kids mostly alone sounds like a recipe for diaster.  If we head the alternative way, which is certainly possible, I'd definitely try to mediate custody with them primary living with me and her having visiting custody.  This might be possible in our case because she has expressed a desire to leave and wouldn't want to raise the kids alone.  She realizes that would not be a good idea.  She's attempted suicide in the past, damaging her liver in the processes, and possible suicide is always in the equation, so I've already prepared for the possibly of raising the kids alone.  I kind of feel if someone is going to leave the family and hand over the assets and the kids, let it be her.  Why should it be me?  I am not happy with the marriage, but I'm okay with most everything else.

I seem to be a trigger and focal point for her illness.  When I stress her, she really tanks with all sorts of self harm and suicidal ideation. When I make efforts to reduce the stress that I might cause her it helps in that she is less apt to do the above.  However, her illness is constant and goes far beyond me.

[waverider]

I had a deep conversation with my wife last night. I wasn't planning to, it just kinda happenned.

She'd had a horrible weekend: she was sorting out clothes for the kids and said it was triggering her memories of growing up with only donated clothes. It left her feeling crap all weekend.

She opened the conversation with saying that she can't talk to me about how she feels because I don't empathise with her (she says I sympathsise - not empathise). After a while the conversation moves on and I said "I cannot work out how we are supposed to work together. Everything is at opposites - like you want to be social, but you can't socialise. You want to have a close relationship, but it scares you. I guess I always assumed that the things you talked about - your anxieties/triggers - were things you wanted to work on. But recently you've told me that seeing your psych isn't about that - it's about a safe talking place. I can see that being beneficial, but I'm looking into the future and asking what will be different? When do things get better? I want to enjoy life with YOU".

She then launched into a hundred reasons why we can't socialise together and why she can't leave the house.

    - we have kids of different ages (12/9/6), you can't please them all at the same time

    - when the kids move out there'll be less stress

    - you can and have gone camping with S12 by yourself

    - she'd hate to spend 6hrs playing poker with me and my friends

    - I'd hate to spend 6hrs doing craft with her and her friends

    - we need to sacrifice our lives for the kids, just until they're older

    - she can't "leave" the kids with a sitter because she's uncomfortable with that.

    - she can't go to a playground with us because open spaces stress her out

    - she can't invite our friends over because it stresses her to much

It was excuse after excuse. And none of it made logical sense of course.

She also said that the things that she thought she wanted she is now getting comfortable with not having. That she is OK with who she is. So although she's always talked about wanting to socialise more, she's now OK with the minimal level of socialising she does. She's always enjoyed walking, but she's OK with not doing that anymore. She says she's learning this "acceptance" with her psych. I don't know if this is true, or if she is just giving up on wanting to change - it's too daunting/hard. Our last marriage counsellor said to her that there are therapists who could help her work through the issues and gave her contacts. She hasn't contacted any of them.

I see my wife retreating more and more - like she has given up. And I don't think she will ever change.

Can I live with that?

    - Best case: I enjoy life with my kids, taking them camping, biking, playground - all without mum. I'll do home activities as well, but my wife doesn't normally join in because she "doesnt know how to play as a family". I'll socialise with my friends - as a single dad. My wife and I will have home dates, movie nights together, and maybe an OK sex life. And when the kids leave home - wife suddenly becomes stress free and we start to enjoy life together again?

    - Realistic case: I try to enjoy life, she feels increasing left out, alone, abandoned, gets increasingly frustrated/annoyed - life gets very tense. She may or may not get a better psych. In 10 years the kids leave home and she stays as a hermit and we divorce anyway.

    - Alternative: We divorce now. I get to live my life with the kids, perhaps even finding someone else to share it all with. Wife still feels crap - but i'm not there to be the brunt of it - but the kids are. Of course I'm assuming she is fair/reasonable with sharing the kids - which I'd love to say is possible - she doesn't seem vindictive. Finances will get tight. I'll forever be the bad dad for breaking up the family.

How do you evaluate this choice?

This is hard, there are avoidance issues going on. Maybe mixed in with a fear of failing, so she takes the alternative to opt out and avoid failure. As you try to get on with your life, the gap widens heightening both her awareness of failure and abandonment issues.

I think a core issue is an unwillingness/inability to take responsibility for the consequences of her own lack of effort. As a result, there is no reward, no sense of achievement and no incentive to keep trying.

As you can't control her her, or give her a big shake up to get her to put some effort in you can only get on with your life. Dont allow yourself to be dragged down into inactivity by association, that would normalize life avoidance for her, but it will create massive resentment for you as you think, "well that was another summer wasted doing nothing"

I think you exhaust the possibility of  the realistic option then at some stage you will either be ok with this or you will have one of those moments when you realize trying to push a cart with flat tires leaves you with absolutely no satisfaction at all and you take your bags off the cart and start walking.

Most importantly you don't want to leave any "what ifs' unresolved. The rest of your life is still a long time.