Confronting the Lies - Hand in the Cookie Jar

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Wondering how you all deal with the constant dishonesty, specifically confronting your SO about finding out he lied about something (again). Instead of bringing up actual incidents (like destroying my Facebook acct, cheating on me, hacking my email, etc, etc), I'll use the proverbial "hand in the cookie jar" example: I come home and literally see him with his hand in the cookie jar. I tell him his hand is in the cookie jar and ask him why. He responds that his hand is not in the cookie jar and how dare I accuse him of such a thing. It takes off from there (you all know how it goes) - "But I SEE your hand in the jar, so you are lying." He says again he's not lying, we go round and round, he finally admits he's lying, but then says it was only because he was doing something nice for me - getting a cookie for me or (insert some other ridiculous reason here). Promises he'll never do it again, then the next day he's doing it again. So my question is, how do you deal with confronting the lying? Or don't you? Do you just pretend it isn't happening? I've tried that too, but that just enables the lying and hurts me bc I feel so disrespected and can't say anything. What are your strategies for dealing with the obvious lies?

[bananas2]

Wondering how you all deal with the constant dishonesty, specifically confronting your SO about finding out he lied about something (again). Instead of bringing up actual incidents (like destroying my Facebook acct, cheating on me, hacking my email, etc, etc), I'll use the proverbial "hand in the cookie jar" example: I come home and literally see him with his hand in the cookie jar. I tell him his hand is in the cookie jar and ask him why. He responds that his hand is not in the cookie jar and how dare I accuse him of such a thing. It takes off from there (you all know how it goes) - "But I SEE your hand in the jar, so you are lying." He says again he's not lying, we go round and round, he finally admits he's lying, but then says it was only because he was doing something nice for me - getting a cookie for me or (insert some other ridiculous reason here). Promises he'll never do it again, then the next day he's doing it again. So my question is, how do you deal with confronting the lying? Or don't you? Do you just pretend it isn't happening? I've tried that too, but that just enables the lying and hurts me bc I feel so disrespected and can't say anything. What are your strategies for dealing with the obvious lies?

[Anise]

Hi there!

It's a frustrating situation.

I haven't come up with any good/healthy ways to deal with this either.  My basc strategy right now is to acknowlege it to myself and not bring it up/confront the pwBPD.  I don't know that they are truly capable of owning up to their lies, possibly because it may force them to confront their shame wound, possibly because they really don't see that their behavior is problematic.

What do you want to get out of confronting them about whatever lie?  If it's something that you can provide an acceptable alternate behavior, you could try bringing that up with them.  But you aren't going to get a sincere apology or behavior modification on their own.

When I realized my husband was substituting porn viewing with actual intimacy with me (I have nothing wrong with porn viewing, but when you're substituting porn for an actual relationship, something is wrong!), I called him on it, because I was genuinely hurt and felt unwanted.  At first he denied it, but when I pointed out evidence he said, "Well, I was just trying to warm myself up for you" (yet he never approached me after his daily porn sessions).  At that point I just let it go, because I knew I was not going to get what I wanted - a sincere apology and return of intimacy to the relationship - from him.

I recently caught him in a lie about talking to a female friend on the phone for 90 minutes late at night.  At this point, if he was cheating on me, it would make my path forward so much easier.  Catching him in the lie just reminded me that he doesn't respect me and that I can't have an adult relationship with this person, as we are at this time.

It's hard to build a boundary around lying, because you really have no way for them to be accountable.  There are always going to be lies that you miss, which gives them the reinforcement to continue the behavior.  The only truly healthy thing that you can do, if you can't tolerate the behavior, is to remove yourself from the relationship. If someone has an alternative, I would love to hear it.

[unicorn2014]

bananas2, I'm dealing with a similar subject, if you read my threads. My dad told me not to use you messages, but I messages. I have been telling my fiancé "these are the facts I was given." My fiancé maintains that his facts are different. My dad told me to let the facts speak for themselves.  I had to get a social worker to help me with the situation I'm dealing with because its extreme. It was affecting my ability to sleep.

I don't know what specific kind of situations you are dealing with. Do you have a t for yourself?

[unicorn2014]

Anise, I would put forward that if he is watching porn and is talking to a female friend on the phone for 90 minutes behind your back that may be considered crossing a boundary on an emotional intimacy level. What do you think about this?

[Anise]

Hi unicorn, the problem is that the boundaries are really for us, what behavior we will and won't tolerate.  We can't give them an arbitrary boundary that relies on their behavior, that is just asking them to cross it.

The same with his drinking.  I can't say, "your limit is two drinks per night", that is controlling and gives him something to "push my buttons" with. But I can say, "if you drink while we are out, I can either drive us home or I will take a cab", because that defines my behavior.  I can say, "for my safety, I will not be in a car with an inebriated driver."

The same with the friend. The problem is not necessarily that he talked with her, but that he lied to me about it.  There is really no enforceable way that I can say "you should be honest about your behavior with me" without coming across as controlling, which, honestly, I don't want to be.

The emotional intimacy in this relationship is so far gone that I doubt there is anything I can do to get it back. I'm in the process of leaving, and will move out in November.  But I still have to find a way to live with the behavior and deal.

The problem is so difficult precisely because their value systems are fundamentally different, and the way they view the world is fundamentally different.  I didn't really understand this until recently when I watched a family movie with him and he came away from it with pretty much the exact opposite message the film was supposed to deliver.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Anise. As boundaries is something I've been struggling with in my own r/s, I think I'm going to draft my own post about this. I've been thinking about it for a few days. I'm actually reading a book called better boundaries, and boundaries is also something I'm working on in one of my 12 step programs. I'm also going to review the workshop on this board about boundaries. (I hope the op to review the workshop on boundaries as well, if you think that might be helpful to you in your situation.)

[pallavirajsinghani]

I don't think that they perceive lying the same way that the non's do, nor do the BPD sufferer think in terms of morality of their behavior the way the non's do.  The disconnect is what defines this disorder and the entire relationship between a non- and a BPD sufferer.

Their "feelings" are their "facts".  If they feel that their hand is not in the cookie jar, then it is not.  If they feel that talking to a woman other than you for 90 minutes is not wrong, then it is not.  If watching porn is not wrong, then it is not.

A BPD sufferer evaluates an action, a word, a gesture (whether their own or whether someone else's)  by how it makes them feel.  The non-BPD sufferer evaluates an action, a word, a gesture to a great part separate from his or her own feelings.  Issues of societal norms, moral behavior, personal norms, personal standards etc. also come into play when a Non perceives an action.  Not a BPD suffer.  For such is the nature of the illness.  The line between self and non-self is mostly non-existent.

Theirs is an ego that has not individuated itself from the Id.

[JQ]

Hibananas2 

I noticed you've only been here a short while with only 6 posts so welcome. I encourage you to read the references to the right and at the top to learn more about BPD and what it will mean for you to stay or leave. You'll need to dive into the world of BPD ... .there are NO quick answers to any questions. For the most part those who have BPD have similar behaviors but like anyone else in life, they are not exactly alike. You have to realize that BPD is a severe Behavior illness that was caused LONG before you came along. Learn the 3 C's of BPD, YOU did NOT Cause it!  YOU can't Control it!  YOU can't Cure it!   This happened long before you came into the picture, most likely when they were a child they had to learn some way to survive a situation that didn't happened just once or a few times, but was ongoing for possibly years ... .in some cases. Again, not all cases are the same.

BPDs are behaviorally stunted, they behave very much like a toddler ... .2-3 years of age at times.  NOTHING in a BPD relationship is normal and NOTHING in a BPD relationship will EVER be normal. You used the "cookie jar" analogy ... .I was watching a 3 year old nephew once.  I watched him from a hidden spot to see what he was up too. He pulled out the kitchen drawers to climb them like a ladder to the counter. Once to the counter he crawled over to the cookie jar and pulled out to cookies and reversed the process until he as safely back on the kitchen floor with the biggest smile.  I called his name and walked up to him and lowered myself to one knee and asked him what he was doing? Now his hands where behind his back ... .and he looked down to the floor & innocently said, "I'm not doing nothing".  I said are you sure? "Yes" was his reply. I said what he was holding behind his back? "nothing".  I called him by his name in a calm voice and said are you sure? He said ... ."I have nothing" I said show me your hands and he did slowly & with a lot of shame knowing he had been caught. Then he said, " i got you cookies". Both are for me? 'uh huh". Well thank you, I stood up with the cookies in my hand and started to walk away as he chase me, "can I ask question" ... .I stop and turn around on bended knee. "What is your question" "Can i have one of your cookies?", "I said yes & gave him one, that's called sharing. He was happy and trotted off.  I'm not sure if I taught him it was ok to lie with that lesson, but then again I wasn't the wise adult that I am now but someone in my 20's. It sounds as if your husband got his hand caught in the cookie jar and lied about it very much like a toddler.

It's a learned behavior from nearly childhood ... .to protect themselves. Whether it was learned to protect themselves from a spanking, or other physical abuse, sexual abuse, mental or emotional abuse they had to learn it to survive. Is it right, no, not by any stretch but it might explain why they do it. the other thing you need to learn is that someone with BPD will most likely need a lifetime of behavioral modification therapy (DBT) and you'll need it too to deal with the emotional, physical and mental abuse that will happen more then anyone deserves. My exBPDgf has been in therapy for more then 25 years. We've talked about it, I've told her that I've dove into this world of BPD to try and learn as much as I can about her, her behaviors, me and my behaviors in order to maybe have a better relationship. I'm convinced that it's the decades of therapy that has helped her to get to this point to realize that I was really trying to learn what I could. The one thing that you'll also need to know is that someone with BPD will have multiple therapists. She has had her current one for 2 1/2 years and believes that he lacks the experience in DBT therapy & EMDR so she has reached out to a therapist group to get someone who has more training, but more importantly has more experience in treating her PTSD related from years of sexual & emotional abuse from her brother and years of emotional, mental & physical abuse from an older sister that is more then likely the reason for her BPD condition. She is self aware and high functioning with a 6 figure job for a major corporation. She realizes that she has had more then her fair share of relationships that have gone bad ... .she realizes that she has more triangles then she cares to admit including with me. She also understands that this is a boundary for me that I won't cross and won't see her because of it. She can't guarantee me right now that she won't have a triangle with me but doesn't know why she does it and wants to learn so she can better control her behavior. She would like to have a relationship with me, but I told her it's not worth it to me to constantly wonder where you are or if you have a triangle via FB or texting, sexting, or other means, physical or emotional. It's not worth it to me to risk STD's or UTI's and she understands that ... .she doesn't like it ... .but she understands it.

there is evidence to suggest that they don't remember what they do or say at times. Again, they've learned to compartmentalize things and have become very good at it. They put things in boxes and put them in the dark deep basements in their mind with double locks on them. Once they open those locks they relive bad memories, relive bad feelings guilt & shame and then the bad behavior begins. They've never learned to deal with certain feelings of shame, remorse, or other bad memories and the cycle repeats itself.

There is so much more to BPD, again not everyone who has BPD exhibits every behavior, but they're close. there are 9 categories and if they meet 5 they are generally considered to have BPD.  This place is a good start to learn what you can. There are books referenced and we encourage you to seek out a therapist too to better understand the situation and yourself like the rest of us have. I've learned so much about myself and why I have the behaviors I do.  You have to decide if it's going to be worth it to stay or go. Know that it's going to be the definition of a roller coaster crazy train ride.  Amazing ups, and incredible lows and only you can decide what you want to do. We can tell you what works for us or come to vent, share stories. It's good just to vent every once in awhile too so please come back as often as you need to.

JQ

[Daniell85]

I am really believing the toddler theory. My boyfriend lies and lies. I hate it. He knows it, too. What he does is play word games.

For example, me: did you friend that girl on facebook? No, he says. Actually he didn't. She asked to friend HIM. And he added her. So HE did not ask to friend her... .and that means HE did not friend her. So he is not directly lying.

He is a master of lies of omission. The only idea I have is to try and find some way to redirect him. Kind of like a 3 year old. Sometimes it works.

[JQ]

I am really believing the toddler theory. My boyfriend lies and lies. I hate it. He knows it, too. What he does is play word games.

For example, me: did you friend that girl on facebook? No, he says. Actually he didn't. She asked to friend HIM. And he added her. So HE did not ask to friend her... .and that means HE did not friend her. So he is not directly lying.

He is a master of lies of omission. The only idea I have is to try and find some way to redirect him. Kind of like a 3 year old. Sometimes it works.

Daniell,

My first exBPDgf did the same thing ... .lie by omission. So after I learned what she was doing, I learned to ask the proper question or series of questions ... .it usually involved the 3rd guy in our ever revolving triangle. After I caught her more then once ... .I finally had enough and said good bye for good. The stalking started at that point ... .she very much wanted to be on control of the situation and she wasn't. She didn't want me to leave the relationship and tried to scare off any would be gf's by stalking me, breaking into my house. Calling me at all hours, following me in her car. I thought I had finally seen the last of her stalking ... .until my BPD mother & sister had giving her my number recently and the stalking started all over again. I now receive phone calls that are labeled restricted but don't answer them. They are different days and at different times ... .it's the same pattern that happened the first time ... .I'm not sure if I can block restricted numbers but I'm going to research it ... .if not ... .if I continue to receive them I'll change my number.

Learn how to ask the questions ... .you have to be all inclusive so that they can't lie by omission. For example ... .did you accept her friend friend request or did you send her a friend request ... .Did she ask you out last night or did you ask her out?  Were you home last night or were you at her place? If you would rather not play these "games" then you have to decide if it's worth it. Is it worth wondering where he is, who he's with, what he's doing? You have to decide if he's going to be a good husband, father to your children, a person they can look up to and one that he can show what a good, loving, caring, mutual respectful relationship is suppose to be like ... .because it's possible that what your kids see is what they'll seek out when they start to date ... .is it worth it.

JQ

[sempervivum]

The toddler theory looks very sound to me as an explanation of such BPD behavior.

Sometimes I catch myself analysing the history of my response pattern to my husband´s BPD traits.

The first phase was when I justified his illogical behavior with stress, then I comforted myself with a theory that such things happen in any relationship or marriage, then came the phase of questioning is it or is it not something "disorderly". Finally I made my final exit from denial, but felt very sorry for myself and my life, then anger replaced this being sorry. Only now, after almost 25 years of being together (what a late bloomer!) I am able to admit that this is something that is not going to change.

My husband can function very well and precisely tuned, but then come the phases when he is not so well tuned - you all know what I mean. As I said, only now I am bold enough to admit: Yes, he lies like a little boy, yes, he behaves like one, too and this is the fact of my life.

[JQ]

Group,

Remember nothing ... .I mean NOTHING has or will EVER make sense in a relationship with someone who has BPD ... .we apply logic to a situation where BPD logic doesn't apply. Case in point ... .exBPDgf was raging against me for not texting her even though she had her kids with her. I was told, "YOU SHOULD OF TEXTED ME" ... .then in nearly the same breath ... ."I DON'T CHECK OR ANSWER MY TEXT WHEN I HAVE THE GIRLS" ... .then she said the following ... ."I KNOW ITS NOT LOGICAL ... .BUT IT'S WHO I AM". 

Text me ... .but I won't answer or check my phone ... .at least she realizes the fact that it didn't make sense ... .but then again ... .I don't know if she remember the conversation 5 minutes after we had it ... .

Then I had to remember ... .nothing in a relationship with someone who has BPD will ever make sense ... .it will most likely be illogical most of the time ... .TOOT TOOT ... .ALL ABOARD THE CRAZY TRAIN ROLLER COASTER!

JQ

[sempervivum]

Yes and ... .yes!

Examples from conversations with my BP:

- He starts with a serious statement how he doesn´t understand my doing something. Then I explain it to him. Then he seriously says how he understood that all the time.

- From a clear sky he expresses his deepest fears I am spending too much money. No proof can convince him I don´t.

  He is able to fear our bankruptcy because of bread that was not eaten and a new one was bought the next day.

  That doesn´t prevent him to totally deny this and similar facts and buy something totally (or mostly) unnecessary,

  such as electric barbecue (which is now in our cellar and was used two times in 3 years).

- Or: Where is the chocolate? I ate only two tiny pieces. (Attack is the best form of defense.)

As you nicely put it: no logic, so, goodbye logic!