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Author Topic: Rural versus in town lifestyle choices  (Read 718 times)
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« on: September 26, 2015, 10:49:23 PM »



So, part of the new flight plan is to move to a new state where my kids education will be free due to my disabled veteran status.

We have been here (new location) looking and we have two big lifestyle options.  An in town house in a planned development.  The house is very nice, minimal maintenance and a park nearby.

The rural location has a similar house, barn, several acres and plenty of room for horses, trailers and all the goodies that go with that lifestyle.

History:  We lived on a farm for 7 years or so.  Then lived "in" a small rural town for last couple years, but our horses were 15 minutes away. 

Big suck factor not having them on our property. 

So my wife wants the in town house and was also wanting to keep horses out in the country.  Her primary reason to live in town is to "be close to things and save money on gas".  Yet... .driving out the horses will take time and gas.

My position is that I am fine with picking a lifestyle... .but we can't pick both.  The last couple years of trying to do horses without the proper "infrastructure" has been bad (at least for me). 

There was some initial resistance to my position, but it seems now that she is onboard with selling out all the horses, trailers and associated gear and be "town people".

I think the girls in my family are going to be really disappointed.  Boys will be happy, less chores to fool with.

I'm hoping Cat Familiar ( and other horse/farm people can help me think through this).  My guess is we have about 4-5 days before things are set to be able to make an offer on a house

The last discussion we had tonight was about when we make an offer on in town house that the horses and gear get listed for sale at same time.

I'm not going to move several states away and leave horses in pastures with me not around... .

FF

 
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2015, 11:25:54 PM »

I agree, formflier, I also think it's good to choose one lifestyle or the other.

I grew up on a farm, with horses - then moved to a big city and now am in a rural suburban area. I've never boarded horses because of the expense and distance factor. When I want to ride, I go to a local stable. I do miss having a horse, but I'd personally only do so if I lived on property that could accommodate them.

Which way do you lean, and why - farm and horses, or town and no horses? What about your wife, which does she prefer and why? The kids sound like they're probably split?
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 12:08:56 AM »

Just curious, why do you think your daughters will miss the rural lifestyle?  My experience is that girls tend to gravitate more to the city, while boys are more likely to value the outdoors available to a rural life.
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2015, 12:58:51 AM »

My opinion is that if you get rid of the horses, the girls get into boys. 

Girls who love horses have such strong bonds with their horses, it will be like a death that they will have to grieve if they have to give up the horses. They're moving away from their connection with their friends (I guess you've already moved once recently) and then they lose the horses and the activity they love.

I have some friends in the military and one thing you military folks get used to is moving frequently. It may be interesting and exciting for you to do this as adults, but I've known so many kids who've grown up in this lifestyle where it's been really traumatizing to lose their friends and the homes they've grown to love, just when they've started to feel really settled in.

Just as your wife feels calmed and soothed by her connection to the newest little lap dog, your girls undoubtedly have a deep connection and love for your horses. Is this something you want to deprive them of? If I were a child in their position, I would be devastated (and really pissed and extremely hurt and I might act out in other ways).

I agree that it's a total pain in the neck to board horses, and very expensive too. It takes a lot of time to drive to see them and you always wonder if they're being cared for as well as they should be.

As far as chores, I'm a middle-aged woman who does all the farm chores and I weigh about the same as a bale of hay. My husband mows the lawn and takes the garbage to the dump and that's it for his contribution. I have horses, sheep, goats and several cats. How hard can it be to take care of a couple of horses with all the manpower (and girlpower) your family has?

I think it's great that kids grow up doing chores. The adults I know who've grown up in the country know how to fix things, how to take care of others, how to contribute, how to help. Kids who grow up in the city often don't learn these skills.

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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 04:17:34 AM »

So my wife wants the in town house and was also wanting to keep horses out in the country.  Her primary reason to live in town is to "be close to things and save money on gas".  Yet... .driving out the horses will take time and gas.

My position is that I am fine with picking a lifestyle... .but we can't pick both.  The last couple years of trying to do horses without the proper "infrastructure" has been bad (at least for me). 

There was some initial resistance to my position, but it seems now that she is onboard with selling out all the horses, trailers and associated gear and be "town people".

Uhm... .this sounds a bit like logicman to the rescue again, FF 

Her primary STATED reason is to "be close to things and save money on gas"

Don't believe that 100% and jump to logical conclusions based on it... .without further examining more deeply.

User your logic to decide what YOU want. (Choices being farm, town, or town with horses ~15 minutes away) You can imagine them all pretty well. You can imagine fairly well how your children will respond to the choices.

Once you are clear on which you prefer... .and how willing you are to take your second or third choice... .then you are ready to move into the next decision making phase... .

What does your wife FEEL about it, what does she say about it, and what do you really believe about what she says. Even people who are completely healthy are often very bad at giving a good reason WHY they feel a certain way. In fact, there were some studies showing that many people actually lose their better (but intuitive) judgement when asked to explain WHY they feel a certain way.
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2015, 09:00:06 AM »

My opinion is that if you get rid of the horses, the girls get into boys. 

This worked out well for us with oldest girl number 1 and is in the process of working out well for girl number 2.

I guess, I've done it for so long (it being raise girls with horses) that I'm a bit anxious about doing it another way.

Note:  Before I got my first executive job I was all set to go to farrier school and take on that life.  I can trim a horse that I know well, and prefer to keep horses barefoot.  There seems to be such a demand for farriers that I figured it would be  a steady line of work.  Especially if I got good at therapeutic shoeing. 

So... .not sure what that says about me... .executive or farrier... .but I'm obviously comfortable around horses.

We road a bunch but never owned before moving to the farm.  I was deadset against owning a horse (having my daughter own a horse) where she didn't have to be the primary caretaker. 

Living on a farm and having the kids do chores worked out pretty much the way I figured it would.  Great life lessons.

Living in town and boarding horses, especially trying to do it "on the cheap" (because money is tight) worked out pretty much how I figured it would as well (in other words... it didn't work well). 

For two years I have felt like a plumber asked to fix stuff, but not allowed to use proper tools.  Very frustrating.

Wife and daughters seem to have the attitude that it's no big deal to live in town and have horses "out" there.

In our last move, there was no "real choice".  We already owned the home and just had to get the renters out and us move back in to a home we lived in before.  We did search pretty hard for farm property, but none was available.

This time we have narrowed it down to two properties.  Both houses are comparable, just one is rural mini-farm and one is "in town".  In a development on a cul-de-sac.

There really can't be a more stark contrast, unless we went to condo living.  I've never seen a condo that would accommodate a family our size.

Hoping you guys can help me sort this out... .

FF
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2015, 09:16:13 AM »

Once you are clear on which you prefer... .and how willing you are to take your second or third choice... .then you are ready to move into the next decision making phase... .

Right now... .with what I know I'm not willing to do (even try) the third choice of living in town and horses somewhere else.

If I become unhappy again with this setup (ending it will be next to impossible). 

I would prefer to move to country, but mainly because it's what I know and my infrastructure is in place.

Infrastructure equals diesel truck, gooseneck horse trailer, dump trailer, skidsteer (with attachments), tractor (with attachments), several other trailers, tools

These things have been lightly used for last two years but luckily our last (current) in town house (not in a development) had over an acre lot with room for storage and we were just down the street from my buddies dairy farm.  So, I had no storage costs for my stuff.

The proposed "in town" home does not allow trailers and such to be stored on the property.  Lots of rules about what can be done at the house. (a HOA)

We are moving close to my wife's FOO (primary purpose is not to be near foo... it's free college for kids).  One aunt has 10 acres in the country and wife keeps saying maybe that place will work.  This aunt hasn't spoken to my wife in over 2 years or to my MIL.  They are all "BPDish" and had a big split over care of their mother (my wife's mom's mom).  They wanted to control the decisions but be immune from doing any work or providing money for Granny's care.  Yet... .suddenly they will get happy and let us park vehicles and horses out there for free?   Right... .

I've lived the "development lifestyle" from 2002-2005.  I enjoyed it.  Not my first choice, but we made no pretense about trying to be "country folk". 

FF

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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2015, 09:49:13 AM »

This sounds like one of those family decisions where there are pros and cons to both, and no agreement on either.

The pot of hot water is, if one person gets their way, the other one may be resentful.

I don't know how to solve this. It would seem that people who are not in dysfunctional relationships can. In our situation, it is not about moving now, but at retirement. I have friends who, with their spouses, have been able to plan for retirement. It is ways off for us, but they can at least talk about this,  they seem to be compatible about what they wish to do.

We, on the other hand, have had impossible circular conversations about this, resulting in meltdowns. He wants one thing, I want another. I was actually able to find locations that had what we both wanted, but he didn't want to consider any one of them.  Where we live now, suited his job better. I realized that with him being the main wage earner, that this was something we should both do. For retirement, I want something different.


I think this reflects the dysfunction in our relationships more than the actual decisions. There are pros and const to most of them. It isn't as much which one is better than how one arrives at the decision. It seems that many decisions that involve what I want and what he wants have potential for conversations that break down.

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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2015, 09:53:12 AM »

OK, here's how I see it, and I'm biased, of course, being a country gal:

1. You prefer living in the country

2. The horses give your daughters structure, activity, connection

3. You're moving to an area where your wife's relatives live

4. You've got all the country "gear"--you know its condition and it would be very expensive to replace at a later date

5. You've seen the benefit of kids growing up having chores

6. Your wife prefers the in-town location

7. Your wife's FOO sounds challenging

It seems you and your wife would choose different houses if given the chance. I see a lot of benefits to the country house, but the only stated benefit to the city house is proximity. You lose a lot of things if you choose proximity. How much of a drive are you talking about between town and the country house?
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2015, 09:54:35 AM »

I have joked about different homes for retirement, but sometimes I am not joking. I think I could handle being nearby but with each of us having what we want. He would think that was outrageous.
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2015, 10:01:16 AM »

The issue here is not which one is the best choice, but that- if you override your wife in this one, then she may resent it and be miserable.

If you "give in" to her wishes, then you will likely be unhappy with that.

Is there middle ground- a country place closer rather than father in?

The issue IMHO though isn't a compromise, but the situation. For my H, middle ground does not exist- it is a win/lose thing and he doesn't want to lose.

If your wife sees this in black and white, win lose, my way, his way, then she is likely to dig her heels in rather than accept a solution that is not what she says she wants, much like my H saw that if he considered my wishes, it was not winning to him.
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 10:01:46 AM »

My ex had a horse when we met. She was very bonded to the horse.  She/we decided to sell it to buy a house and possibly to have a child. We didn't have a child. And, although we made the "horse" decision together, I think she came to view it as my "fault" that she gave up the horse. But I guess that's all just part of the projection and blame of BPD... .I thought we were two adults making decisions together. I didn't realize at the time how very childlike she was.

You know your wife, obviously - but I'd be careful... .
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 10:02:21 AM »

 How much of a drive are you talking about between town and the country house?

No traffic 10 minutes to her parents house.  15 minutes with typical traffic. We'll call that the "epicenter" as right now we are looking for jobs but any arguments around a drive to work are theoretical.

An interesting factoid is that the drive from the country house to schools is easier, shorter.  




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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2015, 10:09:40 AM »

Off topic, but have you considered learning how to be a "barefoot trimmer"? That's a growing job opportunity in the natural horsemanship world. I would imagine it takes much less time to complete the training rather than farrier school.

I keep my horses barefoot and use boots when I need to ride over gravel trails. My farrier, who I've known for almost 30 years, concedes that it's much better for horses to be barefoot.

Around here, barefoot trimmers charge the same for a trim as a farrier--about $50.

Another thought, to get back to your topic, is that you are voluntarily placing your family in reach of your wife's FOO. So I consider this a big concession on your part. With the shorter distance to schools at the country place, I'm not seeing the benefit of being closer to town.
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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2015, 10:15:14 AM »

Do facts make any impact if feelings are fact?

One thing I am wondering is if, by presenting all these facts to her ( which indeed are facts) that this will simply invalidate her feelings?

Maybe what is driving her side of this is some kind of feeling, resentment, fear- and without getting to that, the solution may not be in reach.


For me, my H's feelings were the underlying reason behind him digging his heels in. One was that he was not going to lose in his mind. What came out later was this- and this is how the thinking progresses.

If we live somewhere where you have your own interests, you will spend all your time with that and not with me--------abandonement

If we live somewhere where you have your own interests, you will meet someone who shares them and you like him better than me ---------abandonment.

What he could not see was that, if he decided to live somewhere I would be miserable at, then, he would have an unhappy wife ( and the security that I would not meet someone else) -- or that if he made that decision, I could refuse to go.

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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2015, 10:16:16 AM »

The proposed "in town" home does not allow trailers and such to be stored on the property.  Lots of rules about what can be done at the house. (a HOA)

Oh, man, I hope that you guys don't choose this form of suburban combat. I'll second Cat's vote for "rural" for your particular family. Definitely.  
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2015, 10:17:22 AM »

If you "give in" to her wishes, then you will likely be unhappy with that.

Her wishes being "have it all"... .live in town and have others (me) drive people to and from horses deal with the grunt work.  Mommy will show up for the horse shows and attempt to take credit.  

I've lived it for a bit over two years and that was on my home turf with lots of advantages.  I regret trying it and feel used and unappreciated.

The promises of how it wouldn't be a problem didn't come true.

The dynamics at play (other things being picked as more important than take care of horses) will most likely be worse and not better here.  (that is the only unknown)

But the "promises" sound the same to me... .there is no history of living "off the farm" where promises came true.


There is history of living on the farm and promises coming true.

So... .yes there was some joy that I got from doing things with my girls and horses.  I got more joy from taking them to the park (closer and easier).  The proposed in town house has a park that is walking distance.

I've never had any resentment from park/pool activities or scheduling.

Lots of resentment around broken promises for horse care.  And a lame horse from lack of proper hoof care.  Then I was told the abscesses on the hoof were not a big deal (ummm... .I've trimmed lots of horses... .don't think she has trimmed one... .)

Sigh...

FF


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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2015, 10:28:44 AM »

Is some of this possibly magical thinking?

We spent thousands chasing my mother's magical thinking that things would be better somewhere else or someplace else. If this were her, it would not be the rural vs city, but the idea that she has painted the "in town" option white and made it the magical solution to fix her unhappiness. The problem being is that the unhappiness was about her, yet she looks for everything outside herself to fix it.

This included moving, but also other things. That next "vacation" would fix this. Logic had nothing to do with it. When my Dad was ailing, I researched assisted living options, but all of them were "terrible" except the one that her hairdresser's taxi diver's great aunt liked. Said tongue in cheek because surely a total stranger knows more than their children who were emotionally invested in finding a place that would take good care of them.

My mother talks about moving closer to me because she has some fantasy that her grandkids would be around her all the time and take care of her wishes. . Reality is that they are heading off to college soon and would not spend all their time with her even if they were home. If she moved near me, she would leave lifelong friends and family, and would be isolated from the things she likes to do, but she isn't thinking about it factually. 
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2015, 10:36:52 AM »

Her wishes being "have it all"... .live in town and have others (me) drive people to and from horses deal with the grunt work.  Mommy will show up for the horse shows and attempt to take credit.  

I've lived it for a bit over two years and that was on my home turf with lots of advantages.  I regret trying it and feel used and unappreciated.

Gosh, I know THAT dynamic intimately!

It's a difficult balance to strike - what she needs (as someone who is suffering from BPD) versus what you need. I feel for you immensely.



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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2015, 01:46:18 PM »

Have you considered the underlying emotions that may have little to do with the discussions on "reasons"? They could be concerns that are understandable. The problem is that pw BPD are not likely to discuss these things directly.

Coming back to the long circular arguments about where to retire, and my "reasonable" compromise which was not acceptable - is that the "logical reasons" didn't address the emotion- the fear that if we moved somewhere where I would want to do a lot of things- that I would leave my H alone and find someone else. This is not a rational fear, but it was what was fueling his digging his heels in and offering "logical" reasons to do so.

The same for the discussion my mother raises about moving near me. I don't really think she wants to. She would not have her friends, her FOO, or the activities she loves nearby. She knows the grandkids are leaving the nest. She brings it up, because she wants to feel secure that she is not alone. It may not be based on reality-she is not alone- as she has more friends and family where she is, and her kids visit. She would not be happy if she moved to a place where she doesn't know anyone. But these facts don't address her feelings but instead of saying that, she starts a discussion about moving.

I wonder, FF, if this impass the two of you are at has some underlying feelings to it. In this case, taking a factual account of the pros and cons may not solve the issue.
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2015, 02:09:55 PM »

In this case, taking a factual account of the pros and cons may not solve the issue.

This seems such a tricky decision, formflier, because you have a "bigger picture" you can hold in your mind than any picture your wife can likely have.

I don't know if this is an aspect of "walking on eggshells" or not, but I think I'd lean strongly toward the living situation that you believe would cause the least long-term stress to your wife's mental health. If you can predict which one that might be . . . .

Does your wife have a history of being comfortable with other people in situations of close physical proximity? Does she usually do ok in your church community? (I mean apart from random demands that you "kiss her now" publicly and that sort of thing?) Was she able to work smoothly with other officers' wives when you were in the Navy?

I feel uneasy with the mention of a Home Owners' Association in your post. Are the properties on large enough lots for privacy? Will your wife feel judged and disliked by others in the community? These are big triggers for my husband's paranoia. He does much better on "acreage."

But maybe your wife can handle all this like a pro. 

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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2015, 04:28:18 PM »

I don't know if this is an aspect of "walking on eggshells" or not, but I think I'd lean strongly toward the living situation that you believe would cause the least long-term stress to your wife's mental health. If you can predict which one that might be . . . .

My guess is "in town"... .closer... . 

More on this later.

FF
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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2015, 04:32:57 PM »

Several years ago, I bought a house for my mother in a gated lakeside community. It was close to shopping, doctors, etc. It served her well in some respects, but there was little privacy and a very strict HOA code.

She ended up getting into conflicts with three different neighbors, in which I had to intervene.

I would read very carefully the HOA documents. This place I'm describing doesn't allow kids play equipment, clotheslines, motorcycles,  and there are many further restrictions that can be difficult to live with.

My biggest objection was that everyone seemed to be in each other's business. Living rurally like I have for so much of my life, I felt claustrophobic whenever I visited her--like being in a fishbowl. I'd always breathe a sigh of relief when I drove home, 10 minutes away.

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« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2015, 04:46:08 PM »

What Cat Familiar describes with respect to HOAs is pretty much the (only) thing I would fear for your "town" option. Communities like this that I'm familiar with might be already battening down the hatches if they heard a boisterous rural family of 10 was about to join them.



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« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2015, 04:50:21 PM »

What Cat Familiar describes with respect to HOAs is pretty much the (only) thing I would fear for your "town" option. Communities like this that I'm familiar with might be already battening down the hatches if they heard a boisterous rural family of 10 was about to join them.

Yep... .the place in GA was as bad as  Cat Familiar describes. 

This place seems to be about halfway between.  I don't think there is an architectural review board.

But yes... I need to check this out more.

I feel the same way about relaxing when I go into the country.

FF
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2015, 08:15:53 PM »

You present it as two choices... .but there are more options, and you don't know that your offer to buy either property will go through anyway.

Thought #1: Is buying a house in this new state your only option? Or is it feasible to rent instead? Especially if this is a transitional house. Err... .never mind... .it will still have room for horses on the property... .or not have room for horses, and you aren't going to commute to the horses anymore, you've decided on that.

Thought #2: Half the question for you is what seems like the best living situation for you (and the rest of your family) You are well focused on that part.

But the other half of the question is how do you make a decision about it with your wife? How do you negotiate with your wife on it? (I remember well the bad track record with deals in the past!)
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2015, 10:15:44 PM »

Perhaps this choice has something to do with your wife creating conflict recently: the piano, the lights not out at bedtime. Perhaps she's wanting to feel like she has a right to force you to go along with her choice on housing.

On the other hand, perhaps she's dysregulating because she's in close proximity to her FOO.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2015, 06:04:04 AM »

 

Suspect we will be making an offer in a few days.

We went out and looked at several boarding and pasture places.  There are several that seem ok.  Primary concern is not the place, it is family dynamics, decision making.

Knowing my wife, I think there is something else going on in the FOO.

So, the piano is in a house belong to an aunt and uncle that are on good terms with wife's parents.  Remember, half 3-4 aunts and uncles are NC over care of grandma that has passed away over 2 years ago.

Last contact between my wife's mom and one of wife's mom's sisters (that she is now NC with) resulted in pushing match at bedside of dying grandma. 

My gut says that they will be NC until they die.  They are in their 60s now.  Long time to nurse a grudge.

Anyway, pipes burst in aunt's house.  Instead of putting the piano in storage or some other place to properly care for it the ONLY acceptable solution was to truck it 8-9 hours to my wife's sisters house.  Since I somehow crushed this deal because I refuse to physically lift/move a piano (not just for her... for anyone) now I have "injured" her sister and "costed" her a piano.

Using my best guess on piano stuff...

Renting is about twice cost (monthly) as buying and using VA loan.  Rental market is poor and seems to be a buyers market.

Making deals usually doesn't go well... .very true. 

Any "deals" that get made and that matter to me, will be explained publicly to family by my wife (family meeting kinda stuff) before any milestones happen.

I would only make deals around things I actually have power over as well and that I am willing to "go to the matt" over.

More on this later... .I don't want to go down road of enforcement but I do need to thing that through.

FF





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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2015, 09:41:03 AM »

On a side note- what kind of piano is this? Other than a small upright, I don't think pianos should be moved by non -professionals. People with nice pianos would choose a professional moving company that knows how to handle them. They aren't furniture. Moving will also likely get one out of tune. In our area, a local piano shop moves and tunes them. In the case of something like flooded pipes, this shop would pick up the piano and keep it at the shop until the pipes were repaired, then return it.

You may have "ruined" their plans by not agreeing to move it, but you don't have to agree to a plan that could harm you ( be too heavy) and /or harm the piano.

It's crazy to have complicated the issue by saying you cost them gifting it to you. If they wanted to gift it to you, then they could have just done that and let you arrange to have it professionally moved, stored and delivered to your new home.


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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2015, 10:32:38 AM »

 

I have never laid eyes on this... .or ever knew that this aunt had a piano until I was told I was moving it.

I have family that are professional pianists and have some high dollar stuff in their homes.  All professionally moved.

Several years ago I got roped into helping some guys move some small uprights... .against my better judgement... .and ended up hurting for a few days.

I agree with you.

FF 
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