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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: How to minimize victim hood when you are forced into that corner of triangle  (Read 1150 times)
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2015, 12:42:59 PM »

Would you consider creating a no watching tv in the bed rule or a no laptop in the bed rule regardless of where you were?

A parent can do that to a child. Equal adults would need to agree on this together, right?

That is why I believe she was trying to pick a fight/cause a scene and was not focused on solutions.

On point of Karpman's work is that both parties have a proclivity for drama roles rather than non-drama roles.

You took a drama role in the "baby stroller" incident.

You took one here, too.

Do you see that?
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2015, 12:47:29 PM »

You took a drama role in the "baby stroller" incident.

You took one here, too.

Do you see that?

No, I don't see that.  In either incident.

What would a no drama role have looked like when I was trying to go to sleep.

Maybe I'm equating avoiding making speeches and accusations as avoiding drama.

In both situations I was trying to be short, direct and to the point... .avoid fluff.   To me, fluff is usually where drama comes.

FF
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2015, 12:50:12 PM »

 

I do acknowledge that with the benefit of hindsight I would do the stroller incident differently.

One poster had a genius response about not dealing with disturbed people (I'm paraphrasing) that ended it with one response.

My "intent" of how I would approach the stroller incident is the same, I would hope to choose different tactics.

FF

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« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2015, 01:00:23 PM »

No, I don't see that.  In either incident.

You recognize that it is a drama triangle (which is transactional).

You see her role.

You don't believe you have a role.

Correct?
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« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2015, 01:09:42 PM »

You don't believe you have a role.

Correct?

Incorrect.

My focus was on "staying off the corners" and not playing the role that it appeared my wife was possibly pushing me towards.

My analysis is that she was trying to pick a fight of some sort, I think starting out as the persecutor trying to provoke me so that I would lash out at her and then should could be offended/injured (victim)

My goal (and what I believe I achieved) was not not give a poor me speech or otherwise lay out all the injustices she had committed and I avoided lashing out at her.

My thoughts when looking at this as a tool is that the triangle shows me where the pitfalls are and what to avoid (stay off the corners)

Skip,

What would a non-drama transaction look like for the "light incident"?

FF
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« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2015, 01:18:34 PM »

Maybe I'm just falling for the drama, but I'm really curious as to what poor FF was supposed to do when he's in intense pain from the light, hooked up to a CPAP machine, splints on his arms, and she's already told him not to turn off the light. He needed the light off ASAP. No time or mental capacity to formulate the perfect DBT communication acronym.

Maybe tell her I need the light off now so please go to another room if you need light for your work, then unhook everything and go turn the light off himself? I doubt that would have gotten a better reaction?
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« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2015, 01:33:39 PM »

I don't have either of your ears right now, so I'll yield for other members to step in.  Being cool (click to insert in post)



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« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2015, 02:07:07 PM »

I wonder if it might help at all to look at the events of this entire day as one seamless "event," at least in terms of a drama that found its final (and maybe inevitable) act in a battle at bedtime.

Otherwise, I'm stumped.







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« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2015, 02:08:46 PM »

I don't have a script of how you would've better handled the situation with your statements, formflier, but in my own life with my BPD/BPD traits loved ones (Husband; M-I-L; older son; younger son's wife), I've found that removing myself from the Karpman Triangle and opting out of the drama was more of an empathy-, attitude-, or head- and heart-thing.

I had to stop thinking things like "He's just trying to pick a fight" or "She's such a b****" or "He doesn't care about me!" or whatever. I realized that when the offensive behaviors happen, it's really not about ME; it's about my loved ones' inability to separate their own feelings from the facts and their reactions to those feelings.

I really don't see anything intentional in their words and actions anymore; they feel hurt or victimized or whatever, and that's it. They aren't actually trying to hurt or victimize me. I feel sad for them, and sorry that they have to feel so hurt so much of the time. I really feel empathy for them, and that seems to have removed me from the triangle, minimizing the drama for all of us.

Not sure if that helps you, formflier, but that's what has made the difference in my own relationships  Being cool (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2015, 02:12:50 PM »

I don't have either of your ears right now, so I'll yield for other members to step in.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

You have my ears, I would like to hear what a drama free "light event" would have looked like.

I want to learn, I've given my version and the way I see it, I would appreciate you sharing yours.

FF
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« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2015, 02:18:44 PM »

I had to stop thinking things like "He's just trying to pick a fight" or "She's such a b****" or "He doesn't care about me!" or whatever. I realized that when the offensive behaviors happen, it's really not about ME; it's about my loved ones' inability to separate their own feelings from the facts and their reactions to those feelings.

Agreed.  I have more luck controlling my actions and my words than my thoughts.  Especially when tired, hurting, otherwise compromised... .

Not sure if that helps you, formflier, but that's what has made the difference in my own relationships  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Somewhat. 

What would really help is for someone to point to different points and say "right here was a drama/no drama choice" and explain that.

In a similar fashion to how I can tell you what I was thinking and why I chose what I chose at different points.

Then, I think I can learn from that or understand better why some would see my choices as picking drama.

FF

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« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2015, 03:40:45 PM »

What would really help is for someone to point to different points and say "right here was a drama/no drama choice" and explain that.

We can't really know because we don't know how the day went as KateCat says.

Here is a possible scenario.

She occupied the guest room first and was busy doing something.

FF hooked up to CPAP, and expected her to stop what she was doing and attend to him or scatter.

This is an somewhat re-occuring event.

Attention(click to insert in post)  So the maybe the drama clock started with the presumption of plugging in and expecting wife to put what she was doing aside on your timetable and her feeling she and her needs were bandished.

She responded with silent treatment.

If this event occurred with a non-drama couple, based on past experience, our non-drama guy would have acknowledged her use of the room when he entered, stated his legitimate needs and sought a cooperative solution. Maybe helping her relocate.  Maybe laying out on the sofa in the den for 30 minutes.

Attention(click to insert in post) And if she didn't want to engage, create a reasonable solution (cover eyes).  

Neither party expressed their legitimate needs and were seeking solution. The focus was on being hurt or not treated well. To anyone looking in from the outside, solving this was not hard, but all the energy went to feeling victimized (voiced or not). Drama.

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« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2015, 06:02:57 PM »

Drama is as much about where our thinking and beliefs go,  as what we overtly do or engage in.

I think you are at the point of not overtly engaging in drama with her with verbal sparring... .but your internal dialogue IS drama, and therefore your experience leads to a feeling of being persecuted... .which leads to your question... .how to minimize victim hood when you are forced into that corner of the triangle... .even the question speaks to drama.

You can run around a drama triangle all by yourself... .no one else even has to be in the room.


Excerpt
What would really help is for someone to point to different points and say "right here was a drama/no drama choice" and explain that.

how about this... .

Excerpt
really?  not now... .what a pain in the ass... .

resignation... .it is what it is

there's no doubt in my mind she is going to engage in some kind of game

I don't deserve this... .

I can't believe I'm having to deal with this crap... .poor me... .

my internal monologue is now all about not blowing up

what an uncaring b___... .

This is your internal dialogue.  See the drama?

By the way... .you know what REALLY helps me to sooth a migrane?  STOPPING THIS KIND OF THOUGHT PROCESS the minute I notice I'm doing it.   B/C when I go here, which is essentially a place of feeling victimized and tortured instead of taking the experiences I have on earth as NOT personal TO ME... .when I slip into this... .and I start to personalize and go into victimhood... .it is incredibly stressful... .whether I'm engaging overtly in it with someone directly, or if I'm just biting my tongue but seething with the same energy/beliefs/thoughts in my own head... .that running dialogue... .I know it well... .and it makes my blood pressure go through the roof, and it makes my head pound.
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« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2015, 07:01:40 PM »

formflier, you are a dramatic gentleman. Don't deny it. 

Here's a line from the "stroller" incident:

"People know me... .they know my Dad... .and my Granddad.  We're cut from the same cloth.  We'll tell it to you straight... .we behave as proper gentleman should."

You've risen to many challenges in your life. And maybe the challenge that Skip, NotWendy, MaybeSo and others are suggesting, is the next important challenge for you. The one where you grow beyond even these significant labors. The one beyond pride and honor and defense of reputation. Where the war is really over and shields are really down. And you're not a "formflier" anymore.

(By the way, congratulations on refusing to levitate pianos at the drop of a hat. To me that's an important sign of mature change.)

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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2015, 07:22:37 PM »



So, the words that would come out of the mouth of someone that was non drama, when faced with the situation I was in would be... .

If it is that obvious how to solve it without saying dramatic things, why not suggest some things to say?

I think what I hearing is that drama is a state of mind and that the words don't matter... is that what I'm supposed to hear?

FF

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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2015, 07:38:02 PM »

My wife is very focused on tone.  If I talk to her in an even tone, she gets upset because the tone is not warm.  It is possible that the same words with a different tone would be more successful.

P.S.  I am sharing this because my wife complains about it - not because I have figured out how to have a warm tone.   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2015, 07:58:24 PM »

My wife is very focused on tone.  If I talk to her in an even tone, she gets upset because the tone is not warm.  It is possible that the same words with a different tone would be more successful.

P.S.  I am sharing this because my wife complains about it - not because I have figured out how to have a warm tone.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

I get similar complaints, but they are not consistent.  I am too soft, too loud, too this too that.  I used to "chase it".

After several times of saying exactly what she wanted in a certain situation and exactly how she wanted it said and then have her say that I did it wrong and she never said that etc etc.  I quit trying to please her with tone.

So, I pick a tone I would like or that I think is "generally acceptable" and go with that.  Even, measured and clear is usually what I go with.

I normally have to tone down my volume to get it right.  So, if I am attempting to say something softly, most people will hear a "normal tone".  If I am attempting to say something "normally" most people think I am being loud and direct... .maybe even pushy.

So,  I use the internal trick of trying so say things softly... .to get it "just right".

FF
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« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2015, 08:21:42 PM »

Drama is as much about where our thinking and beliefs go,  as what we overtly do or engage in.

I can see this and I get that internal monologues can drive things.   If you let them.  I also think that trying to not think things is worse than just letting your thinking go.  Acknowledge the state of things in your mind and then make decisions based on that, as to what needs to come out of your mouth.(or what action to take)

I think you are at the point of not overtly engaging in drama with her with verbal sparring... .

Agreed.  This discussion would have went totally different for me in a "pre-tool" period.  Sort of a paleolithic pre-bpdfamily formflier.  Very likely would have went nuclear and I would usually force her from the room with the sound of my voice to get her to hush. 

Those were very bad times in my life... .not good.  Half the time I didn't know which way was up or down. 

but your internal dialogue IS drama, and therefore your experience leads to a feeling of being persecuted... .which leads to your question... .how to minimize victim hood when you are forced into that corner of the triangle... .even the question speaks to drama.

I can see that.  I suppose I should have been more exacting in my question or what I thought would come out of the discussion.

My rephrase would be.   When another party is saying words (or giving ST) and it appears that their goal is to put you in a corner of the triangle.  What words can you use or how can you  approach them and act to center yourself or get out of the corner they are trying to force you into. 

My wife can choose to behave "with drama" or not.  That is up to her.  My goal was to act in a way that was not dramatic and that kept me from going to a corner. 


You can run around a drama triangle all by yourself... .no one else even has to be in the room.

Sure... I can see this.  I don't think I was doing this, but I can see that this is possible. 

Excerpt
What would really help is for someone to point to different points and say "right here was a drama/no drama choice" and explain that.

how about this... .

Excerpt
really?  not now... .what a pain in the ass... .

resignation... .it is what it is

there's no doubt in my mind she is going to engage in some kind of game

I don't deserve this... .

I can't believe I'm having to deal with this crap... .poor me... .

my internal monologue is now all about not blowing up

what an uncaring b___... .

This is your internal dialogue.  See the drama?

Yes, I can see it.  That was really not the point of my question.  The point of my question was help in debriefing my words and actions to see if I could have "done it better" in the interaction with my wife so that I demonstrate good behavior and don't participate in the roles of the corners of the triangle.

My wife may guess and routinely tells me about my internal monologue.  She is rarely right. 

I see value in working on internal monologue but I have never been able to "not think" things.  I can distract myself and think of other things quite well, but not when I am trying to solve a problem.

So, the problem I was trying to solve was how get get to sleep with minimum "drama" arguing or whatever when it seemed that my wife was wanting to engage in some kind of sparring... for some reason...

By the way... .you know what REALLY helps me to sooth a migrane?  STOPPING THIS KIND OF THOUGHT PROCESS 

Luckily, I've never had thought process migraines.  In fact, docs are resistant at calling my issues migraines since they originate from my neck and kinda creep up.

Also luckily, I have a tried and true way of managing them when the medication doesn't work (which is about 50% of the time).  Go to sleep.  So, sometimes that means I call it quits at 6 pm or whenever. 

FF
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« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2015, 08:28:17 PM »

"People know me... .they know my Dad... .and my Granddad.  We're cut from the same cloth.  We'll tell it to you straight... .we behave as proper gentleman should."

I guess I'm not seeing the drama in this.  We normally speak in measured tones, rarely get flustered or "act out".

True, we are not shy about passing judgement when appropriate, telling someone no or that we believe they are behaving badly (again when appropriate).

When we do that it tends to be direct, to the point and then is over.  No long speeches about "how could you" "what were you thinking" and we rarely denigrate peoples characters.

So many people are shocked at the forthrightness of saying "You failed to do xyz" and you should do abc to fix this.  What would rarely come out of our mouth was a follow up of saying that they are an idiot... .or worthless... or call them  a name (which in my book would be drama)

I do like ceremonies... .but I don't think that is the drama we are talking about.

FF

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« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2015, 08:41:37 PM »

We can't really know because we don't know how the day went as KateCat says.

I suppose... .but I really try to compartmentalize.  The piano blow up was hours earlier, no reason to bring it up again.  It may have been a factor in my wife's thinking or actions, I'll never know.

She occupied the guest room first and was busy doing something.

FF hooked up to CPAP, and expected her to stop what she was doing and attend to him or scatter.

This is an somewhat re-occuring event.

I thought I explained this better.  About an hour together, some in and out of room.  I don't think any claim could be laid to who was first.  Nor do I think that matters.  My first indication of something being odd was when I told her about taking my medication and I was hurting and asked for her help with neck and got ST.  I was not looking for drama, I expressed a need and asked for help.  Asked... not demanded.  Many times I do this and she says sure and does it.  Occasionally I ask and she says no... .and usually gives a reason.  Sometimes it goes ST.  ST is "almost always" an indicator that she is looking for some kind of sparring.

Attention(click to insert in post)  So the maybe the drama clock started with the presumption of plugging in and expecting wife to put what she was doing aside on your timetable and her feeling she and her needs were bandished.

My expectation was that she would respond to my questions or statements and that when she said she would turn off light in couple minutes, that she would do so.

If this event occurred with a non-drama couple, based on past experience, our non-drama guy would have acknowledged her use of the room when he entered, stated his legitimate needs and sought a cooperative solution. Maybe helping her relocate.  Maybe laying out on the sofa in the den for 30 minutes.

Again... maybe some rereading needed.  We were hanging out together for a while.  I believe I did state my needs (medication, neck traction, light off)... .ok I asked for light off (didn't state)

Attention(click to insert in post) And if she didn't want to engage, create a reasonable solution (cover eyes).  

I've tried that before.  Doesn't work.  You would think with me used to all the other silliness on me that it wouldn't bother me.  It does.

Neither party expressed their legitimate needs and were seeking solution. The focus was on being hurt or not treated well. To anyone looking in from the outside, solving this was not hard, but all the energy went to feeling victimized (voiced or not). Drama.

I don't see how I didn't express my needs or seek a solution.  My focus was on going to sleep and getting their with minimum detours. 

My energy went into getting to sleep without engaging wife.  I had no desire to be victimized.  I had an extreme desire to be asleep, which was being thwarted.

FF
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« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2015, 10:08:00 PM »

we are not shy about passing judgement when appropriate, telling someone no or that we believe they are behaving badly (again when appropriate).

When we do that it tends to be direct, to the point and then is over.

I do think this can be problematic, and, as in the incident involving the stroller, it seems to presuppose a position of judgment and definition and control that resides solely with you (or maybe the "royal You," as in you, your father and your grandfather.)  Smiling (click to insert in post) Maybe I'm missing the "dialectic" aspect to this approach.

Sorry to tease you, because I think you've done incredible work for your family over the past eighteen months. You've almost single-handedly righted the ship, and there's not really anyone to acknowledge it openly, because of the sensitive nature of what you accomplished.

Time for lots of self-care now. And enjoyable activities. And maybe accepting that some internal dialogues are going to take a while to die down for you.

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« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2015, 10:30:22 PM »

And maybe accepting that some internal dialogues are going to take a while to die down for you.

This is very likely true.   Bad dreams have been gone for a while now.

Keep sending the teasing... .there is often truth there.

The royal me is very true.  I view my actions as not for me... .but for my position which is much more important that me.

My actions that I took for me while in the service where not for me, but for the uniform.

When I reference that I act like my father and grandfather, it's not for them personally but for the position they occupied in the community, especially the community of farmers.  I'm 4th or 5th generation (depending on how you measure that) on my family land and there has NEVER been a written contract with neighbors or those that we worked with on the farm. 

We discuss, agree on terms, give our word and shake hands. 

Hmm... maybe I should get down off my soapbox.    Anyway... that is the way most royals go about things... .they act for the benefit of the position, not their person.

FF
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« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2015, 10:39:15 PM »

I hear you, Lord Grantham.  Smiling (click to insert in post) (No, you are probably too busy and too productive in real life to have followed Downton Abbey, but its creator does a very fine job of explaining and illustrating this ethos. Lots to admire there.)
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« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2015, 10:50:15 PM »

I hear you, Lord Grantham.  Smiling (click to insert in post) (No, you are probably too busy and too productive in real life to have followed Downton Abbey, but its creator does a very fine job of explaining and illustrating this ethos. Lots to admire there.)

Love it... .Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I have watched parts of one or two episodes... .so not familiar.

The current TV show I'm hooked on... .really following the one my wife is watching is "Rules of Engagement".

Really entertaining look at relationships at different stages.  We've actually had some good productive conversations out of "issues" that came up in the show.  So far all positive.

FF
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« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2015, 05:04:40 AM »

One idea that has helped me to avoid drama is to practice being mindful of my end of it, and also my feelings. I don't know if it is possible to think about what exactly to say, although it is better to focus on "I" statements, not "you". This is something I practiced with my co-dependency sponsor. She basically told me to get the word "you" out of my vocabulary.

Another almost mantra that we practiced was, if "I am upset about something the problem is me". Now, the logical response is to say "how can that be possible if someone or something is driving me crazy"? This idea isn't as much about the contribution of someone else, but to focus on the only person you have control over- ourselves. By taking that focus, I can then start to think of solutions that I might have better control over.

Part of this is to also be aware of potentially difficult situations and take steps for self care. Being tired, or emotional means I am not really being present to the situation. That's when it is more likely to get into drama. Why? because it's the most familiar to me. I was raised with it. So by example, lets say I was trying to eat a healthy diet, and there's a candy store up ahead. What to do? Well, I could eat a meal so I'm not starving when I walk by, or I could take a different path.

There are times I can deal with my FOO, but there were times when I was not emotionally able to. After my dad died, it was really hard to stay in the house with mom. It was a reminder that he wasn't there. Mom can trigger me. That's just the way it is, and so being with her when I was already upset was like not eating all day and walking into a candy store.  So, I made a point of doing things like take her out to lunch instead of hanging around the house. This is what I decided to do to take care of myself.

Staying with in law FOO is stressful too. I try to let my H interact with his family on his own a bit as I don't fit the family dynamics as much. I might offer to run an errand or something, or help clean up in the kitchen with a few family members while he is with the other ones. Sometimes we have stayed in hotels if there are a whole bunch of people there so that we can have a little quiet. I'm sure your wife's family loves to see the kids, but you have a lot of them, and any time a bunch of people are together, that changes the family dynamics a bit. One option might have been to let the kids have a sleepover with the family, and you go to a hotel. It is possible that your wife wanted some one on one time with her family.

One suggestion might be that, rather than what to say, to look at how you were feeling. You were not feeling well physically, but also, it may have been emotionally stressful. What can you do next time to take care of yourself- physically and emotionally, to make this work better for you?

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« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2015, 06:42:35 AM »

Being tired, or emotional means I am not really being present to the situation. 

I definitely qualified as "not present".  When I am present I am focusing on helping, interacting being a part of the dynamic.

My pain was present, I was taking steps to deal with that. 

I was conscious to let her know my status and I was clear that I was asking for help (vice demanding or expecting).

When there have been more people in the house we have gone to hotel.  The sleep plan was discussed prior to the trip and on arrival.  It was handled.  "Everyone" knows that I have issues so it is not weird to discuss where FF will sleep.

Many times hotel is the option/solution if there is any doubt at all I will have a spot.

I suppose that after the earlier blowups that day I might should have asked again about where I should sleep, although I could see that being viewed as pushing buttons... .inflammatory.  Hard to tell.

FF
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« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2015, 10:04:40 AM »

I'm thinking that the problem here is not really the interaction that happened that night in bed, or something that can be "fixed" by using better words to handle it if it happens again. The communication tools and techniques that are taught by this site (Validation, S.E.T., Boundaries, Radical Acceptance, De-Personalizing) won't make things better in the long run if they aren't coming from a place of empathy and love for our partner.

If we think of the tools as a way of controlling the way our loved one acts and treats us, as a way of controlling the situation to meet our desires and needs, then our partner will feel that coming from us and react accordingly. No one wants to feel controlled, and even if our partner doesn't verbalize that he/she is feeling that way, they will react negatively in all likelihood.

Your wife may have still been smarting over the piano situation earlier in the day, and wasn't in any mood to get over it as quickly as you were. Hence the reluctance to administer to your needs that night, or the silent treatment she was leaning towards. Your inner thoughts may not have come out in the words you chose, but they most likely affected the tone of your voice and body language.

If my Husband is thinking (thanks for the abridgement, MaybeSo):

Excerpt
really?  not now... .what a pain in the ass... .

resignation... .it is what it is

there's no doubt in my mind she is going to engage in some kind of game

I don't deserve this... .

I can't believe I'm having to deal with this crap... .poor me... .

my internal monologue is now all about not blowing up

what an uncaring b___... .


while engaging in a conversation with me, believe me, I know it, whether he is being "nice" to me or not... .If I would be thinking the same of him while using S.E.T. or whatever, then he would sense it, too. Which is why changing the internal narrative in our heads--and detaching from taking every little thing as a personal affront to be offended at, rather than trying to understand our partner's feelings--is the key to a loving relationship.

You love your wife; there are reasons for that. Most of the time she is the sweet, loving, wonderful woman you decided to marry and have children with. Reminding yourself of that when she isn't doing or saying the things you want her to could change your negativity towards her at those times. Not only will that change the dynamics of your relationship, but it could help you let go of the need to control her actions and reactions, and enable you to use the communication tools and techniques the way they are meant to be used: With empathy, compassion, understanding and love  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2015, 10:20:59 AM »

Excerpt
My rephrase would be.   When another party is saying words (or giving ST) and it appears that their goal is to put you in a corner of the triangle.  What words can you use or how can you  approach them and act to center yourself or get out of the corner they are trying to force you into.  

My wife can choose to behave "with drama" or not.  That is up to her.  My goal was to act in a way that was not dramatic and that kept me from going to a corner.  

You already mentioned that in the past this would have turned into a huge drama-fest, with yelling and arguing and demanding your wife leave the room etc.

FF, you used your skills to not pickup the rope.  From your description, all your wife did was stay unaware or in some manner ignore or be unresponsive, then mentioned something about a past situation with the TV and her sister... .then turned off the light and grumbled as she left the room. (her own inner dialogue was driving that)  I'm thinking the light was off and your need was met under 10 minutes?  With very little fanfare, really.   Your goal was to get the light out and to sleep.  And that's what you got.  

I still don't see a lot of high drama other than what was going on inside you.

If I I saw a print-out of what was going on inside your wife's head, that led to some of her grumblings... .it would probably be similar with your internal dialogue... .something like... .

Oh, here we go... .now that I'm just getting focused... .

he always does this... .his needs always come first

my needs are invisible to him... .they don't rank

and now I'm suppose to drop what I'm doing and attend to him even after... .

I don't deserve this... .poor me... .this whole day was... .

and if I don't attend to him he'll just... .

grrrrr... .


So, you know.  From where I stand, this is a no-brainer.  

Was the interaction flawless?  :)id you wife immediately respond in the caring and nurturing way you would have liked?  

No.

Bottom line.  You got your needs met with a minimum of high drama. This won't always look pretty.  But it still worked.

The drama appears to still be there, for both of you under the surface but you don't act it out with her... but both of you are likely looking at these kind of interactions through a lens of victim, perp or rescuer ... rather than through a neutral lens of assuming no personalized ill intent.  It's not about not having thoughts... .it's about noticing our beliefs as they form our thoughts and as they form our knee jerk reactions... .and eventually being able to look at what we beleive and really challenge it... .and eventually shifting to looking at experiences like this through a different lens altogether.

Such as... .

She probably didn't register what I said b/c she is engrossed in her own project right now on the computer

She is probably just tired from the day in her own way... .even if it isn't manifested as a migrane... .

I get these migranes 2x a month... .it's understandable that she may feel frustrated when they happen... she is only human

and so on... .

And even... .

Maybe I AM being ignored... .maybe she IS angry... .she is only human... .even still... .I feel confident I can work this through and take care of myself just fine... .it will be okay... .this isn't about me... .she is having her own experience and it makes sense to her... .



Excerpt
My rephrase would be.   When another party is saying words (or giving ST) and it appears that their goal is to put you in a corner of the triangle.  What words can you use or how can you  approach them and act to center yourself or get out of the corner they are trying to force you into.  

My wife can choose to behave "with drama" or not.  That is up to her.  My goal was to act in a way that was not dramatic and that kept me from going to a corner.  

I still think the lens you view these interaction through IS drama as defined in drama triangle dynamics.  People who are not viewing an experience through the lens of drama... .take a stance that another person is operating from a place of legitimacy that makes sense from THEIR experience... .and do not personalize it as being about placing or forcing someone else into victimhood. They feel confident that they can take care of themselves, even if the other person is having a markedly different experience that makes no sense to them in the moment.  They are fully aware that another person can have a completely different experience that has NOTHING personally to do with them in the moment.

When someone is not able to meet our needs the way we would like, a non drama stance would be to assume ... .that this person has their own competing needs or experience... .and that their experience is at least as valid as our own experience even if we don't fully understand it or agree with it.  WE KNOW that in our cells... .and we stay focused on problem solving and not on personalizing or assigning blame.

In a perfect world, reading the interaction with your wife... .

when she didn't respond to me the first time... .

I might very gently position myself to make sure I am looking her in the eyes but I would use "kind eyes"  and I would make an observational comment about her experience for a second... ."wow... .you look immersed in something there... ."... .and then gently repeat my need and intention to turn the light off so that my head stops pounding.   If it were me, I would likely say something that lets her know... .that my need may be right now interrupting her need and that I see this... .I would just acknowledge this... .b/c this often works wonders... .people respond well to being seen and acknowledged.   I would also front load my appreciation... .before the lights are out... .like "I really appreciate your understanding that I need the lights out honey"... .that kind of wording.  

Even so, the interaction you wrote about had minimal acted-out drama... .in large part b/c you are not picking up the rope and engaging IN it.  At least not overtly.  And that's huge.  Is is perfect?  No... .and it never will be.  
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« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2015, 10:46:21 AM »

I still think the lens you view these interaction through IS drama as defined in drama triangle dynamics.  People who are not viewing an experience through the lens of drama... .take a stance that another person is operating from a place of legitimacy that makes sense from THEIR experience... .and do not personalize it as being about placing or forcing someone else into victimhood. They feel confident that they can take care of themselves, even if the other person is having a markedly different experience that makes no sense to them in the moment.  They are fully aware that another person can have a completely different experience that has NOTHING personally to do with them in the moment.

When someone is not able to meet our needs the way we would like, a non drama stance would be to assume ... .that this person has their own competing needs or experience... .and that their experience is at least as valid as our own experience even if we don't fully understand it or agree with it.  WE KNOW that in our cells... .and we stay focused on problem solving and not on personalizing or assigning blame.

There is a lot of good work in this thread by members - thanks to everyone.  I think this is a model that all bpdfamily members should be gleaning from the material here.
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« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2015, 11:56:38 AM »

Your wife may have still been smarting over the piano situation earlier in the day, and wasn't in any mood to get over it as quickly as you were. Hence the reluctance to administer to your needs that night, or the silent treatment she was leaning towards. Your inner thoughts may not have come out in the words you chose, but they most likely affected the tone of your voice and body language.

I think as a woman, even tough I'm the "non", I do this a lot. If BPDh has been unfeeling, and hard to deal with all day, it takes me longer to "get over"(his words... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) stuff than it does him. What's weird though, is that he'll seemingly "get over" things but then hold a grudge for years(this to me seems far unhealthier). So, because I'm still hurt by his earlier actions, I might be less likely to jump to meet his demands or requests.

Maybe this is just a gender difference, per se? Or personality trait difference? I mean, I've had some horrendous things said to me, and while I can forgive, it might take a while to get there.

Is it possible that she was just still hurt or upset over the piano incident, thereby saw your request as you being "difficult"? Remember, pwBPD already have a skewed perception at times, so this could account for her actions. Plus, empathy(to your pain), is definitely not something pwBPD excel at... .
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