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Author Topic: For the first time in 14 years, I set a boundary. It's been a wild ride.  (Read 407 times)
flourdust
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« on: October 01, 2015, 04:28:30 PM »

So, as mentioned in my introduction thread, I'm married to a BPDw. She's most likely had mild-to-severe BPD most of her life, but it was relatively controlled for the early years of our marriage. Things started getting bad about five years ago, and then got really, really bad three years ago. She entered a DBT program earlier this year, which was when she was formally diagnosed with BPD, and I began to finally understand the problem.

Although I'm pretty conflict-avoidant by nature, I thought it was the right thing to do to stick it out for the hours-long circular arguments/fights that began to consume most evenings. Even when I really desperately wanted to get away, I knew that she'd be furious if I did, so I hung in there, usually.

After I started to educate myself (with websites like this one, and books like Stop Walking on Eggshells and Stop Caretaking the Borderline), I decided to try to impose a boundary or two. Here's what I came up with:

I won't tolerate being called names.

I won't tolerate being screamed at.

When those things happen, I ask for the behavior to stop, and if it doesn't stop immediately, I leave the room.

I have had to act on these boundary violations several times over the last few months. Here's what I've noticed has happened.

1. She is furious at me for leaving. (But she'd be furious at me if I stuck around and took the verbal abuse, so it's a wash.)

2. I'm upset when I walk away. (But not as upset as I get when I stick it out, and at least I can go watch TV or do something to distract myself. Win!)

3. The screaming and name-calling stop, because I'm not there to receive them. (Definite win.)

4. There have even been a few circumstances where she's clearly trying NOT to call me names or NOT to yell, because she knows I'll walk away.

So, it seems like it might be working. On the other hand, she HATES these boundaries. Hates them with the fire of a thousand suns. She has tried to tell me I'm mean and horrible and selfish for walking away and leaving her alone, that I am doing boundaries wrong and that they must be mutually agreed upon by us, that she will retaliate with a punitive "boundary" where she gets to yell at me or chase me around the house, that I need to care for her and boundaries just feed into her abandonment, and more arguments that I can't recall. She has given me worksheets from her DBT program to show that boundaries are something we're supposed to negotiate -- but the worksheets don't actually say that, she's tried to argue against my boundaries in marriage counseling, and she's turned almost any conversation into a debate about my boundaries.

Are these the "extinction bursts" I've read about? Or am I really doing boundaries wrong somehow? For now, I'm standing firm, regardless of what is thrown at me.
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LonelyChild
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 04:41:48 PM »

Or am I really doing boundaries wrong somehow?

To me, it sounds like you're on the right track. Some boundaries need to be negotiated (both through means of testing and through means of verbal communication), but name-calling, scream and violence are not among them. You are also in your own right to set ANY boundaries you like, though if your boundaries do not match at all, it obviously ends in you two breaking up.

To keep moving in the right direction, perhaps you should set up a few long-term goals for what YOU find an acceptable level of conflict. In the end, it's up to you to make sure your living situation, environment, etc feel acceptable to you. Perhaps, if you do it little by little, she can move along with you?

The dysregulation will probably always be there, but you might be able to contain it with much work and cooperation.

Also, something to keep in mind; she NEEDS to accept (little by little, but she MUST get to this point) that she plays a part in the conflicts. To me, it sounds like she's still set on denial if she's waving a paper in your face claiming it says "we need to negotiate whether I get to scream at you and call you names" (paraphrased, obviously). I think the best thing you can do in these situations is stay calm and move away. This might help her (although not in the most comfortable way) see that she is indeed causing it. It is absolutely vital for her to understand that she has SOME part in what's going on for your boundaries to last in your r/s.
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« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 04:54:44 PM »

They are extinction burst trying to negate the boundary and bring back the status quo. Using the boundary analogy of a locked door she is trying to say ok you can lock and bolt the door as long as you unscrew it from its hinges.

she is trying to minimize their impact on her. This is why you always frame your boundaries around you, as opposed to putting a controlling fence around her, it makes it far easier to defend. In short "you can do what you like, but I am not exposing myself to something that is not healthy for me"

When she throws in "what am I expected to do?" Dont throw in suggestions as then you are stepping into the minefield, where your suggestions get dismissed as controlling. Your boundaries are not about getting her to do anything. They are not a means of soothing or counseling her, or a fix all. They are simply a way of consolidating your ability to defend your own rights.

The first boundary is usually the hardest as you are establishing a precedent, to that end if you cave on it then  you will set the precedent that persistence can win over a boundary
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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 05:21:46 PM »

4. There have even been a few circumstances where she's clearly trying NOT to call me names or NOT to yell, because she knows I'll walk away.

This is good... .a very good sign.

Is there some way you can say thanks, or some kind of acknowledgement that you appreciate the effort.  (very careful to  sound genuine and have it be a real compliment)

next: 

It sounds like you are on the right track.  You have the big picture correct

Have you ever been able to "shock" her out of a name calling session?  (rare on my end)

Sometimes I can say I'm going to get a drink, bring her and I a glass of something and she may calm a bit.  The focus is to "slow down" her mind... .her arguments.    I only try this when I feel "on top of my game".

FF
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« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 08:00:00 PM »

Ah, yes, I love when they use their newly acquired DBT knowledge to further paint you black. Boy, have I been there. How do they manage to distort something that is supposed to be helping them not display behaviors like that? It's not humorous, but in a way it is. I mean, seriously.  
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 08:07:10 PM »

Also, don't let her derail you, you are doing boundaries correctly from all my reading about boundaries. They are meant to protect YOU, and from what you've written, they are doing so. It isn't about HER actions, or meant to change HER in any way, it's about giving you more peace, and keeping you out of negative situations. She still gets to choose how she will react, and you aren't setting boundaries to punish her, and boundaries DO NOT have to be agreed upon! Boundaries are for YOU. In fact, boundaries don't even have to be stated to others, they can just be acted upon(although I do usually try to state my boundary, just as "information", so the person will not be shocked when I enact it).

I feel she's arguing because she's trying to maintain her sense of control. She's not used to the boundary, and she doesn't like it, so she'd trying to get you to back down. I'm not as well read on extinction bursts, but I'd say to me, this sounds like it could be that. She's trying to get you to change a boundary, because she doesn't want you having any, she even wants to control that!
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flourdust
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 10:40:58 PM »

I really appreciate the feedback! A few thoughts... .

To me, it sounds like you're on the right track. Some boundaries need to be negotiated (both through means of testing and through means of verbal communication), but name-calling, scream and violence are not among them. You are also in your own right to set ANY boundaries you like, though if your boundaries do not match at all, it obviously ends in you two breaking up.

To keep moving in the right direction, perhaps you should set up a few long-term goals for what YOU find an acceptable level of conflict. In the end, it's up to you to make sure your living situation, environment, etc feel acceptable to you. Perhaps, if you do it little by little, she can move along with you?

The dysregulation will probably always be there, but you might be able to contain it with much work and cooperation.

Also, something to keep in mind; she NEEDS to accept (little by little, but she MUST get to this point) that she plays a part in the conflicts. To me, it sounds like she's still set on denial if she's waving a paper in your face claiming it says "we need to negotiate whether I get to scream at you and call you names" (paraphrased, obviously). I think the best thing you can do in these situations is stay calm and move away. This might help her (although not in the most comfortable way) see that she is indeed causing it. It is absolutely vital for her to understand that she has SOME part in what's going on for your boundaries to last in your r/s.

Yes -- part of the problem is that she doesn't accept her BPD diagnosis. She claims that "all her therapists" know it's not true, and they only diagnosed her so insurance would pay for DBT. From what I've been told, that's not true at all (the insurance part, at least), and I find it difficult to believe that a practitioner would put her license on the line by assigning false diagnoses. She's definitely not at "acceptance" yet!

I think you're right about my long-term goal. If I do something truly heinous or deliberately selfish, then I deserve to be called names and yelled at. I won't accept being called an ass because my facial expression is somehow viewed as disrespectful. I won't accept being yelled at because I interrupted her when she was writing a Facebook post to ask what she wanted for breakfast. I think the core of what I'm trying to get at with my boundaries is that I deserve to be treated with the same level of respect that any adult human should expect.

When it comes to negotiations -- I'm not sure if this qualifies as a boundary, but I'm trying (both in MC and outside of it) to get her to agree that there will be no screaming fights in front of our daughter. She has no compunctions about that at all. In the last few months, our daughter has been exposed to her screaming, swearing at me, storming off, heading to her car and driving off, threatening divorce, and even threatening suicide. That's intolerable to me -- those are really awful things for a child to hear. But, while I can have a boundary that when she does those things, I try to remove my daughter from the situation, it's not realistic (or necessarily reassuring to my daughter) that I'll flee with her from the house every time there's dysregulation. It would be much better if she could try to rein in these behaviors.

When she throws in "what am I expected to do?" Dont throw in suggestions as then you are stepping into the minefield, where your suggestions get dismissed as controlling. Your boundaries are not about getting her to do anything. They are not a means of soothing or counseling her, or a fix all. They are simply a way of consolidating your ability to defend your own rights.

The first boundary is usually the hardest as you are establishing a precedent, to that end if you cave on it then  you will set the precedent that persistence can win over a boundary

Very good points. I've tried to stick to that. I'm not telling her what to do, just telling her what I will do. At one point, she tried to get me to come up with boundaries for her, but I backed out of that trap and told her I couldn't pick her boundaries.

Have you ever been able to "shock" her out of a name calling session?  (rare on my end)

Sometimes I can say I'm going to get a drink, bring her and I a glass of something and she may calm a bit.  The focus is to "slow down" her mind... .her arguments.    I only try this when I feel "on top of my game".

I'm not really sure. The sessions are much shorter now because I won't engage. I usually head to a different floor of the house, and she'll yell after me about my abandoning her, controlling her (by leaving), etc., but I don't respond, and she stops when I'm definitively out of the room.

I hear her doing some self-talk now, where she'll ask (herself? me?) if what she's saying is calling me a name or if I think it is yelling. If it's not, then I'll say so.

I feel she's arguing because she's trying to maintain her sense of control. She's not used to the boundary, and she doesn't like it, so she'd trying to get you to back down. I'm not as well read on extinction bursts, but I'd say to me, this sounds like it could be that. She's trying to get you to change a boundary, because she doesn't want you having any, she even wants to control that!

Oh, unquestionably! I'll try to end on a humorous note here... .well, humorous in retrospect, at least. When I first set the name-calling boundary, she tried to argue with me that she wasn't calling me an ass. She was saying I was "acting like an ass," which is completely different and not at all name-calling, therefore my boundary was null and void.

Somehow, I didn't find that argument persuasive!
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waverider
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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 11:22:50 PM »

re agreement about not yelling in front of your daughter, that is a hard one. No matter what she promises when she goes into dysregulation she no longer has executive control and all agreements go out the window.

You will just have to act early. Most of all don't let her provoke you in front of your daughter. pwBPD learn to know what your triggers are and lean on them, to make you the instigator.

You wont be able to put a boundary around everything in an attempt to make life "normal" or you wil find your self in conflict over everything and the value of individual boundaries gets lost
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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2015, 07:13:04 AM »

re agreement about not yelling in front of your daughter, that is a hard one. 

This just my advice... .and there is some "upping the ante" here.

But I have taken he habit of stating what my wife is doing that is unhealthy before I turn and leave the room.

"It's not ok for you to call me names.  I will come back and see if we can talk in 5 minutes"  then leave the room.

I have 8 kids, this is big deal to me.   There is how to deal with my wife which would say my tactic is a bit inflammatory (possibly... I'm accusing her of calling me names).

There is a teachable moment for my kids.  State a value and act on it (from me).

Tough place to be, I encourage you to stand up for your values and your kids.  Give them a healthy example.

FF
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waverider
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2015, 07:20:00 AM »

As FF points out setting an example for your kids is a big part of all this, showing them the value of boundaries in life generally. Teaching them how to say no effectively.

I have actually had conversations with my 21 year old daughter and past on a lot of the tips here in how to deal with people, not in response to BPD in particular, but as general guidance.
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LonelyChild
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2015, 08:27:20 AM »

When it comes to negotiations -- I'm not sure if this qualifies as a boundary, but I'm trying (both in MC and outside of it) to get her to agree that there will be no screaming fights in front of our daughter. She has no compunctions about that at all. In the last few months, our daughter has been exposed to her screaming, swearing at me, storming off, heading to her car and driving off, threatening divorce, and even threatening suicide. That's intolerable to me -- those are really awful things for a child to hear. But, while I can have a boundary that when she does those things, I try to remove my daughter from the situation, it's not realistic (or necessarily reassuring to my daughter) that I'll flee with her from the house every time there's dysregulation. It would be much better if she could try to rein in these behaviors.

You need to (as you already started by leaving during namecalling etc) show this with action, not just words. If it's intolerable, that means you show with your behavior that you're not accepting it. Ie by making sure that, if she decides to do it, you do not let it enter your (or your daughter's) reality. If you do, you're basically removing that boundary. This is important to keep in mind. Your boundaries are to protect you (and obviously your daughter) not to make your wife behave as you please. She's free to scream or whatever she likes. You're free to not accept it. This is - unfortunately - a very difficult point since, if you're absolutely firm with your boundaries and she doesn't back off (due to not wanting, not being able to control herself or anything else), that means you basically have to go for divorce to keep your boundaries in place. I realize this is not what you want, so maybe you want to make some kind of "last-resort" plan that doesn't involve divorce.

Please protect your daughter. As a child of a BPD parent, I can't stress how important this is. My life was basically ruined for my first quarter century of existence because of my BPD father. No matter your attachment to your wife, you treat your wife as your enemy if you must, to protect your daughter. You cannot imagine how much regret (talking about my own mother now) you will have to carry for the rest of your life otherwise. Children ALWAYS blame themselves when they can't find answers.
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flourdust
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« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2015, 10:53:52 AM »

That's what I'm afraid of -- that this is laying the foundation for damage that will affect her for the rest of her life. It doesn't help that our daughter already has shown tendencies toward explosiveness that could be the antecedent of BPD or something similar. She's on a mixture of meds and therapy right now that are doing wonders for her.

My goal right now is to get the discussion with my wife to the point where she agrees that there are things we won't expose our daughter to ... .and then to do what I can to remind/enforce these boundaries. I have to hope she can regulate herself enough to reduce the intensity and frequency of the outbursts.

If not -- well, I think you're right that divorce might be the only solution. I worry about not getting custody. Right now, I'm usually the one who is painted black, but if I'm not around, does my daughter become the primary target? What are the implications for her of different possible custody arrangements?

But I'm getting miles ahead of myself, and just spinning my wheels.

I'm also working on stealthily assembling a go-bag for the two of us, in case we do need to leave. But grabbing her and running is going to be deeply upsetting to a little girl who knows that her mom is acting crazy but also loves her unconditionally. And that's assuming she'd be willing to go when I tell her to. Unless there's actual physical danger present, I can't just throw her over my shoulder and run.
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 11:45:59 AM »

 

Flourdust,

Your head is considering the right issues.   Whatever you can do to be slow and deliberate about your/thinking decision making will very likely produce a better result.

Knowing that you can leave (prepared with bag) is great idea.  Focus thinking about what "lines" would get you to leave if they are crossed.

Important to make those decisions when not under stress, so you can implement them when you ARE under stress.

Keep posting... .we'll help you out.

FF
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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 06:02:57 PM »

a lot of the "what ifs' regarding the legal position can be explored on teh legal board if that ever becomes a likely scenario.

However it is good to know your options but dong get to ahead of yourself otherwize you can end up catastrophizing the situation.

Consolidate one step at a time.
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