Fleas? Grooming? Inherited?

[Stolen]

Posted my intro thread a while back - uBPDxW bailed to pursue Lesbian life, fully wrapped two Ds with her.  Trying so hard not to blame the girls... .

Ds now 19/16 - pretty much 100% alienated against me.  I've read a lot  - Warshak, Childress, Gardner, West etc., and I understand it all, buts its just so damn frustrating and heartbreaking.  The Court System is even worse than the nightmare stories - it really seems designed to support, legitimize and reward the disordered.  If I was not living it I would never believe it.

I know and try not to "blame" my daughters, but I get back the same arrogant, dismissive anger their M turned on me. I know its defensive, probably based in Cognitive Dissonance, but it just hurts so much. It seems I had two daughters for 10/13 years, and then they were abducted. They left their rooms as-is, trophies, plaques, scrapbooks, really their childhoods.  All the things I thought were important to them.  Just left behind.  Also left the dog of 10 years - who they had grown up with.  I just don't understand the evil that could sway them this way, and that is what I am convinced it is, pure evil.

$100,000 spent so far, psychologists, priests, etc., nothing has worked one bit. They are just gone.  Remaining move is to pursue Constructive Emancipation - in my mind to remove the Evil from the middle, but so many see this as "cutting off your children".  No good choices it seems, just unbearable and distasteful. 

Thanks for listening - there is no pain like losing a child. I get to live it every day.

[enlighten me]

Hi Stolen

I really feel for you. My story could have ended so similarly to yours. Fortunately for me my boys weren't taken in by their mum and now live with me.

One day I hope your daughters reach out to you and reconnect.

EM

[Stolen]

I often wonder if I would have had a better chance with sons.  I do know the girls must have been welcomed with open arms in their new community (sic).  Its nice to be the Belles of the Ball.

[enlighten me]

Hi Stolen

How much contact did you have with your daughters post break up?

[Stolen]

Depends on how you define contact.  Hundreds of texts - most ignored or dismissed. Scores of phone calls - not a single one answered.  In person?  I have seen them for maybe a total of 5-6 hours in the last 3 years. They were moved 15 miles away, and have been in our original neighborhood (within a mile) many times - never came by.  The alienation is so complete it is cult like.  And not just me - but anyone associated with me, classic.  And not a single word of "why?".

Regarding heritability of this poison - xW and her S used to "jokingly" refer to each other often as ":)evil's Spawn", paying homage to Queen/Witch MIL.  I should have taken this more seriously... .

It was actually MIL who led me down the BPD path - I was trying to understand why she flipped on so many people, they were ok, then they were Hated.  Really Hated.  I did not understand the extreme about face, over and over again, often over seemingly trivial reasons.  That gave me Splitting and Black/White thinking.  Then it all fell into place.  I never had a chance - where was this board 30 years ago?  We need some public service bulletins perhaps!

Thank you for such a great resource.

[enlighten me]

That's rough. Did they send back presents and card from you? Or just not acknowledge them?

What ways have you tried reaching out to them?

Sorry to ask so many questions I just want to try and get a clear picture.

EM

[Stolen]

First Christmas I bought both Tiffany necklaces.  They refused to come over. Gave one in April, the other almost a year later.  Have never seen them on a birthday since leaving. In my house are cards/checks from my mother - for Christmas 2013.  They know they are here.  Treated like kryptonite.  They are her only grandchildren.

I have tried many times to involve a therapist.  As with early attempts with xW, this has been refused. These attempts have been ongoing for over two years now - I cycle quite a bit.  I stop, lay back, but then try again. Its just so damn frustrating. 

[enlighten me]

Its good that you've got all the cards still for them. One day you will hopefully get to give them to them.

My ex wife tried telling my boys that the reason she left me was because I was abusive to them. This confused the boys as they couldn't think of anything I had done but plenty she had.

Is one of your daughters more likely to be receptive to you?

Have you tried writing them a letter?

[Stolen]

My xW's mantra was that I was controlling.  For the life of me I can't think of what I actually controlled. Not sure if that was shared with the kids.  Actually I have zero clue what the narrative was to turn the kids. Never a hint of abuse or charges of such. 

I would think the older one, based on simple maturity and now being away at college, would be more receptive, but I have yet to see that bear fruit.  I have not sent a USPS letter, just iPhone texting/calling since that seems like a direct route.  I have contemplated whether a paper letter would have any more impact, but I really doubt it. There does not seem to be any way to simply game this.

The way I read this now is such - xW was unable to honestly speak a word to me regarding her leanings and intentions. She directly answered "no" the three times I asked if she was having an affair with her BFF.  Everything I discovered was via third parties, including an excellent PI.  So - if a middle aged woman is unable to overcome her guilt and shame to level with her partner of over 25 years,  how could I expect teenagers to be honest about what they know?  By drawing the children into her world of mendacity, she drew a clear line between them and "him" (me). 

Its one thing to tell the kids "don't tell Dad what we got him for Christmas" and totally another to take them into your confidence re "don't tell Dad I am filing for divorce and that we are moving to a million dollar house where I will buy you whatever you want and you can do whatever you want and there are a lot of people who will really love you and by the way, help me pack up the silver before we leave... ."   

[enlighten me]

My ex wife did exactly that with my boys. They were made to keep secrets and don't tell daddy was used a lot. I fought tooth and nail to get joint custody and enforced my time with the boys. If she refused then I told her she would be right back in court.

This I think is why it turned out well for me. I managed to maintain contact.

You'll be surprised the effect a heartfelt hand written letter will have. My eldest sons are living with me and want nothing more to do with their mum. She was meant to send them a letter from the heart to try and reconnect with them. The letter was typed and it wasn't her words. It was obviously her husbands words. It wasn't heartfelt either and the majority of it was bout the step dad and his daughters. My boys hate the step dad and aren't keen on his daughters. My boys were not impressed one little bit with it but if she had done it right I think things would be different now.

[ForeverDad]

Did the court just throw up its hands that it wouldn't force the children to do anything?  So the court wouldn't support using Richard Warshak's Family Bridges program?  Childress has a new approach that the mental health community will probably support better than Gardner, that alienation is a form of child abuse.  It's too late to try either option for your adult daughter, but you may have a 1-2 year window of opportunity for your younger daughter.

Always keep the door open, maybe some day one or both will think for herself and if one or both of them does then you'll be there.  Surely they've been told horror stories about you, that you abandoned them (rather than the truth, that you were driven away), that you didn't love them, that you didn't care, etc.  Do keep your proof that you fought for them in and out of court so that if they ask, ":)ad, did you (really) fight for us?" they aren't expecting Superman, you can say, "Yes, I did, I did my reasonable best and more." 

[JohnLove]

In my circumstance I have 3 children. Now D19, D13, and S9. D19 was alienated since she was around 12. Prior to that we were "like peas in a pod", very close and went everywhere together.

I spent 6 years and nearly $100K on maintaining my relationship with my younger 2. I eventually secured an interim order for primary care of the younger 2 from start 2013 to end 2014. 2 years. That was not easy but that was validation that I am a pretty good parent. The BPDex had to mess up pretty severly for that to be accomplished as well. The eldest and I had one counselling session together in all that time. I spent $2.5K trying to get another one.

Court was over and final orders reached in Feb 2014. D19 and I have spoken a number of times, went on a day trip together.

D19 is also relentless in HER alienation attempts of the younger 2 to this day, while her Mum pretends to want us to enjoy a relationship. For a recent example where we live there is a model train society that build real working miniature steam, diesel, and electric trains. These are a pretty dedicated (mostly retired) group of guys and once a month they invite the public to ride on a very long multiple tracks complete with stations, bridges, tunnels, with each train pulling multiple carriages (each just a long seat with wheels basically) completely free of charge (although they really appreciate donations to help cover some costs). It is something really amazing. The smell, the noise... .anyhow, I digress. The point being that when my D19 discovered what we had enjoyed she said to D13 "oh, I would love to go there and ride the trains" and then maliciously added "just not with Dad"... .this garbage has threatened to do my head in, in the past. Now I'm worried she has developed a form of BPD herself after being parented by a BPD Mother. She is trying to alienate D13 and S9. D13 is headstrong and has a tumultuous relationship with D19 and her Mother. She pays for her "subordination" with threats and punishments.  :'(

I will add that this relationship with my BPDex lasted 20years from 1987 to 2007 and I only discovered BPD early last year. Oh, the irony of it all.

I want my relationship with my D19 back. I still believe it is at least possible. I have told her so only to be criticised and met with hostility although she is now happy at least to accept my expensive gifts... .but I don't receive a thank you or even an acknowledgment. I will add I failed her on the hand written letters.

If anyone has advice or insight or judgements I am happy to receive them.

[Panda39]

My xW's mantra was that I was controlling.  For the life of me I can't think of what I actually controlled.  

Hi Stolen,

The above sound like she is projecting her behaviors on to you.  The alienation of your children is all about control, sounds like your ex is all about control.

During my SO's separation leading to his divorce from his uBPDxw his daughters were used as spies, used to punish him for leaving, and used to make false allegations of child abuse.  I think their mother used feelings=facts to create a whole story that I don't doubt she believed because she "felt" it... .felt abandoned... .was being abandoned by her husband.  What I think she did was pull the kids in too... .from she was being abandoned to we are all being abandoned by dad.  I met and started dating him several months into his 2 year separation and she told their daughters that he had been having an affair with me and I was the reason he was leaving.  Which again in her twisted mind I think she believed.

This was 4-5 years ago.  Now his daughters 15/19 both live with him full-time of their own volition.  What turned things around?  When the divorce was final my SO received a little more than 50% custody (during the separation he saw his kids EOW) so he began to see his children more.  And guess what he was still dad... .the same dad he had always been and eventually his daughters began to come out of the FOG.  They began to see their parents as separate no longer one unit.  They began to see who was taking care of them... .being the parent and who wasn't. 

After separating my SO went back to his natural state of stability and responsibility and mom began a downward spiral that continues today.

Both girls had traumatic incidents with their mother in the last year that have pushed them further away from her. D19 is no contact and D15 is low contact at this time.

So things can change as life moves on.  Just be available to your daughters and see them as often as you can.  You can show your kids an alternate reality that is stable, and loving.

Hang in there.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

D19 is also relentless in HER alienation attempts of the younger 2 to this day, while her Mum pretends to want us to enjoy a relationship... .Now I'm worried she has developed a form of BPD herself after being parented by a BPD Mother. She is trying to alienate D13 and S9. D13 is headstrong and has a tumultuous relationship with D19 and her Mother. She pays for her "subordination" with threats and punishments.  :'(

It sounds like one child is mother's golden child and the other is the child painted black.  It's not uncommon for unequal treatment.  And I guess here, between siblings too.

[JohnLove]

Thanks for your comment ForeverDad. That would be an accurate statement. I don't think D13 is painted black completely but she pays for her loyalty to me. Children should never be made to choose between their parents and especially not by their parents. I have always supported their relationship with their Mother, but on different levels at different times while she tried to completely cut the children off from me to everyone's detriment (including herself).

The interesting part for me is that I've tried to inoculate my D13 and S9 from their Mother's deplorable behaviour such as by asking them if they feel D19 is better off without her Dad. There faces show concern and their answer is always an unequivocable "no".

So where does that leave D19?... .in my opinion she is living a lie. She has been brainwashed and/or manipulated by either a BPD Queen or Witch... .and how does that serve her well?

I have enjoyed a close and rewarding relationship with my D13 and S9 for years since 2008, when I was able to organise telephone contact while facing criminal charges (another $2K spent on a criminal lawyer and the charges and AVO are dismissed after a full hearing) my D13 who was only 8 at the time would spend hours on those weekly phone calls with me.

So how does that fit in with my now D19 and her dim view of her Father when my other children love me so much and always have a great time with me?... .reality not matching facts?... .her own skewed belief system?... .or far worse, a symptom of BPD?  

[Stolen]

Lots to respond to : ForeverDad - yes, the Court has "thrown up its hands", done absolutely nothing. The GAL seems 100% hostile to me, so blatant it could be laughable. A wizened, nasty b___ to be simple about it.  After early on me recounting xW's bizarre personality changes and poor judgement, she discounted all and just came back with "the girls want to live with Mom".  And that was it.  Both over 14, seems to be the age they can make their own decisions (allowing teenagers to make the decisions that guide their lives makes perfect sense, right?).  Finally got a custody stipulation that included visitation - but, at 14 (again) they can choose to ignore it.  So nothing came of that either.   

And - at least there seems to be facts in the way of "me abandoning them".  I still live in the family home, their rooms ready for them at a moments notice, and I made that clear.  Perversely, I have been hoping for a disaster in their relationship with their M, that would bring them back to me.  No sign of that yet.  To be reduced to hoping for problems is tough... .

JohnLove,  you had a similar multi-decade run as I did.  I'd like to compare notes on how this progressed over the years at some point, but let's stick to the PAS stuff now.  Your concern re D19 is in line with my title for this thread.  On the surface, my Ds are exhibiting similar behavior as their M, the extreme anger, the lack of honesty, the total absence of empathy for the hurt to another.  Is this learned (fleas), or are they the next generation to suffer from this poison due to inheritance?  In xW's FOO, it is very strong - easily traced to Grandma to see the emotional dysregulation, dysphoric rage, triangulation, splitting, etc.  (oh boy have I learned a new vocabulary). Strong among the females, with but one exception, and also among the males, but consistent with what I have read it indicates itself more as pure anger for them.

Bottom line is the unhappiness it brings them, the total lack of joy in their lives.  Which they are all too happy to share with others.  I spent years asking "Baby, what's wrong?",  "You seem to have no joie de vivre", etc.  I just wanted her to be happy - there was nothing I could see that was wrong/bad/unsurmountable.   

For over 20 years she told so many people "thank God for Stolen, otherwise I'd be just like my mother, my family... ."    and then one day it all changed... .   

Every one of her siblings (I've know them since young) recounted to me suicidal thoughts during their childhood, all attributable to Witch/Queen MIL.  I didn't run, I thought I could help. 

What an idiot.

[Stolen]

And the secret (Shhhhhhhh... .) lesbian quest?   I think this slots perfectly into the "unstable sense of self" bucket.  This was a woman I knew for almost 30 years.  There was no word of this in the 5+ years before getting married, in the 5+ married years before children, never.  There were clearly issues with intimacy, I chalked these up to her abusive childhood.  (She recounted it as psychological and physical abuse, "getting the ___ beat out of me", at the hands of her M, but I don't doubt overt or covert sexual abuse now).

Following the unstable sense of self - she never really had any interests or hobbies of her own, no long-term friends, and certainly no "deep" friendships.  Everything seems centered on the toxic enmeshed relationship with her M.  She quickly took up my interests, which clearly worked for me, and solidified my belief that things was good. 

And then, 25 years in,  the bizarre BFF friendship that seemed to open the door to her pursuit of happiness.  I even have a letter from the BFF to me, helpfully (?) explaining the difficulty of living a lie.  One of the more fascinating documents I have ever read... .

If I found myself in my 40s, with an unavoidable desire to pursue a same-sex lifestyle, I would like to think I would approach it differently.  Certainly some time with a professional, to better understand my yearnings. And then hopefully sharing the difficult truth with my supportive partner of decades.  All with utmost concern for our children.  I don't think I would pursue this leaning by drawing the children into my secret world, alienating them against a loving parent, and attempting to financially destroy my spouse who had always disproportionately supported our very comfortable lifestyle.

So - I don't put nearly as much credence into the choice, vs the decision on how to pursue that choice.