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Author Topic: Am I being too inflexible? Help me work through this  (Read 403 times)
Daniell85
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« on: October 02, 2015, 11:50:13 AM »

Wanted to talk a bit about status quo of my relationship.


At the moment he has asked to begin chatting again in IM. He feels that with all of the damage ( he doesn't trust me he says, and he also says he knows I don't trust him), we need to start out in a "safe" chat mode, where we talk about life in general without bringing up troubled relationship issues. He feels we can sort of re-establish feelings of good will enough to start to pick up the relationship again and when we are more stable with each other then things will be better.

To him this means "healing" has taken place and Danielle will no longer trouble him with pesky things about the cheating and what he is doing to show he can be trusted. That is, he is now trustworthy, while he continues talking on a shallow level with women who have been issues for me due to poor boundaries on his part.

He will not have affairs. He will not become "too close" again to these women.

The reasoning I am being given for his continued surface friendships is that he feels troubled about uneasy situations and he wants to make peace with the ladies and carry on with polite shallow discussions ( how's the weather, what have you been up to? how is your day? how is your family, work... I am tired, yes, long week)

He wants nothing more than that with them, and he wants me to simply accept this and stop fussing "about stupid things" and get on with the relationship we have together.

Ok. I am trying to work out for myself some things. I have been with my therapist on stuff. I am not actually understanding in myself if I am being over reactive to what he wants with casual chatting with these ladies ( one of which he cheated on me with), if truly I am not being sensible about these things, or it there is clear danger here.

I feel there is danger.

From my perspective I am dealing with 2 different views in myself: the intellectual and the emotional.

Intellectually I understand that people like to smooth things over in bad situations if they can. Clear the air, bury the hatchet. His friendships and the affair with these people ended up ( even without me in the picture) badly. Arguing, blocking, drama etc.  I understand he doesn't like the feelings of conflict internally he has and he wants to "make right" or whatever.

Without me in his life, I would say that it is a positive aspect of character to stand up and say he messed up and to "fix" broken friendships and such. Even if people don't talk much after that. I think both people like to move on and feel at peace over a past bad situation.

But I am in his life. If I want to be. This is where my emotional mind is causing ME internal conflict. I have a really strong reaction to his continued "friendship" with the woman he cheated on me with. From what I am understanding, both from him ( and he lies, so no credence given to him for this) and from other mutual friends, this amounts to now working with her once a month, and very short 5-10 minute conversations with her 5-6 times a week. This is what this girl is telling a mutual friend.

He says since they made peace, he hardly ever talks to her.

I feel a lot of fear over this. Layered over the top of that is hurt, exasperation, anger, a strong need to smack him around for being so uncaring of my feelings. I don't want to start up the open chat because I am not in a place where I can sit there with him while he continues the friendship with this girl.

So I told him about a week ago that I needed time to calm down and I would touch base with him in about a week or so.

We are at the point of "or so".  I was thinking I should at least do that touching base with him. I want to start the chat, but I don't want to because I am really stuck on this friendship thing.

I was tearful and hurt over it this morning.

Then I swung back the other way and I consider not my feelings, what is an effective way forward. I don't know what it is. My feelings of fear and hurt are interfering with the way he has offered.

Am I being inflexible due to my feelings, rather than a sensible acceptance of things I obviously can't control that may in reality not be a danger to me?

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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2015, 04:22:27 PM »

This does sound like a difficult situation.  In some cases, once the trust is lost, it is never regained.  Other relationships manage to repair the damage.  I think it is up to you to decide whether you wish to try and trust him again.

Let me ask you something.  Let's say you write the rules for his behavior.  What would that look like?  What would make you feel comfortable that he has changed?

From my perspective, if total no-contact is not possible (it sounds like he works with her), the conversations can still be pretty brief, unless it is work related.  5-10 minutes for 5 times a week sounds like more than a polite greeting in the hallway.  That is still maintaining a friendship, as opposed to just trying to avoid awkwardness.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2015, 10:19:33 PM »

The Rules? Well, I wish  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I wish he would stop lying. He doesn't have to be brutally honest, but simple truths would really help. I mean it's his choice to interact with other women and it's my choice not to interact with him as a result.

I did talk to him a bit today about it. He understands I am not ready to open that chat situation. He wasn't offended, he did express a little sadness. He seems ok with waiting for me on it.

He did claim he is not having discussions with her. She is just sort of sitting there as a facebook friend and he doesn't talk to her. I don't believe him.

It keeps coming down to this. No trust. I don't feel safe.



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patientandclear
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 09:47:51 AM »

You guys are stuck because you want more reassuring conditions to start over, and he wants to start over with no assurances of changing the pattern that hurts you.

You are not being too inflexible in seeing that it hurts you and that accepting something that hurts you is going to be harmful.

I see his side too. From his perspective I do understand the theory that he may find himself more willing to do what you want if you give him a positive incentive of just starting up again, and he doesn't feel like you're "making" him.

But. It's equally possible that he will take away that this is behavior you will accept.

I think he may still move off his position that he is going to have social chats with this woman. But not if he thinks you'll let him off the hook on that. Having other romantic connections around in doubtless of some value to him. A pressure release valve, reassurance ... .I doubt it's for the reasons he's stating, but it may be for relatively innocuous reasons that are not genuinely a threat to the r/ship. The point is, you reasonably FEEL crappy that he chooses to do this knowing it hurts you.

You've done a super job of NOT overblowing things, being patient and open.

A long ago ex BF of mine married someone else. Before her I had been his big love, and I hurt him badly. I wanted to stay in touch after their marriage. He decided no contact, because contact hurt his wife. Bummer for me, but he made absolutely the right choice, right?

That's what you're coding this as: a way he would show that he prioritizes you. No, it's not too rigid.

I think there is some chance he will shift off his current position if you make it clear yours in not changing. It's like a long subtle extinction burst in slow motion.
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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 10:11:54 AM »

No, it's not too rigid.

You are thinking in the right direction. 

Remember, he thinks you hurt him.  He is avoiding that he hurt you.  (this is his reality)

Don't try to change his mind... .(for now)

Don't change your mind either... .

Next time he wants to "talk about" how to talk about not talking about the r/s... .simply state that you enjoy talking to him.  Leave it at that.

When he wants to bring up "rules" about contact... .make it about you and decline to speak about it.  "I'm not able to talk about this right now... "  "Hey... .did I tell you about the new pizza place I ate at... .it was wonderful"

I agree that getting away from r/s talk is good... .so don't talk about it.

Once the temp goes down... .maybe productive conversations can happen.

FF
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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 02:33:01 PM »

I think the issue is that for Danielle, the issue won't "go down" until it's been talked about, and he agrees to honor what makes her feel she can trust him. I get the sense that she doesn't even want to have idle chit chat, because she can't stop thinking about his poor choices, choices that in no way honor her feelings, or acknowledge what he's done and having boundaries in regards to it.

I think this guy has a lot of nerve wanting to maintain to much contact with someone he cheated with! I mean, I understand if they work together, some contact might be necessary, but as the poster above said, it sounds like more than that is happening. Anything you read about getting over infidelity, speaks of transparency, and cutting ties with the affair partner. Now, as this is a work situation, that might not be totally possible, but wanting to continue a friendship, to me, shows a whole lot of "not sorry".

I think your gut is already telling you that he isn't currently doing what you need to have happen to "get past" this. It isn't just your issue to get past. He chose to cheat, he needs to do what is necessary for you to feel safe. He's sort of wanting to lay blame on you, for feeling the way you do, but you feel this way(as most women would), as a result of HIS lack of boundaries, and poor choices.

Like you, I'd skip the chat window for now, and wait and see if he shows any real accountability, and if is shows in his ACTIONS. He does have control over his dishonesty, and how much dealings he has with this woman. YOU should be his clear choice, and why should he care about how the former affair partner feels?
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2015, 03:00:43 PM »

I think this guy has a lot of nerve wanting to maintain to much contact with someone he cheated with! 

CB is right on point with this!

I think his behavior is horrible.  He need to take action to build trust... .not expect her to "get past it...

Those are my thoughts.

However, he is not there now.  This is not an option.

If there is interest in the r/s continuing... my suggestion is to "do" the r/s instead of talking about it.

So, just have idle chit chat.  AVOID talking about issues (Not forever)

The goal is to turn down the temp, so that at some point there is a chance to talk about Daniel85 wants to.

The current pattern is not working.

Current pattern being "debating" how to restart the r/s and who should say what... etc etc.

FF
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« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2015, 03:50:21 PM »

No, you are not being inflexible.

You are being protective of your inner sanity and peace.  Your mind/body/spirit is screaming for harmony, comfort, affection, sense of safety.  Follow this yearning... .act accordingly.

This is a situation where you are in danger of using rationalization to talk yourself into acting contrary to what the good little voice of intuition is telling you.

Please note that I used the term "rationalization" instead of "reason".



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« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2015, 04:29:03 PM »

This is a situation where you are in danger of using rationalization to talk yourself into acting contrary to what the good little voice of intuition is telling you.

Please note that I used the term "rationalization" instead of "reason".

I agree with this... that little voice inside often warns us when someone is close to violating our values. They either already have or are about to cross our "lines in the sand". Don't rationalize this away. You're hearing "danger! danger!" inside your head. Could be fear, or could be because you value honesty and fidelity - both of which he ignored and violated. Your values are important and worth protecting. Boundaries can help. Some values are flexible, some are not. Up to you to decide which ones you can bend on, and what your deal breakers are. Just be careful not to bend more than you are comfortable bending - you'll know it when those "danger" bells get louder! Figure out a boundary that turns down the noise.
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Daniell85
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 01:44:10 AM »

Thanks for all of you for coming over to post. My brain is a little slow today, so I wanted to think about it before responding.

I am trying to rationalize the feelings away. Some part of me is. It's not working. When I post here, it's been a common theme for me.

I very much would like to open the communication. CB, you are right. I know I would be sitting there ( if I have not found a place to rest this first) feeling afraid, resentful, like I was selling myself out.

I have talked to him about how I can't cope with it right now. I told him what I need. I told him that I would love to be there, but only in conditions we feel safe in. And I don't feel safe.

Formflier, I have seen you say numerous times stop talking about the relationship and HAVE the relationship. I agree with that. The problem for me is I am stilling panicking and I don't trust him.

I didn't want to restart things if I can't cope. And he literally will tell me he is going to do something to make me feel safe, then right in front of me, he will violate that promise.

I have been trying to work myself around to where I have capacity to sit in that channel and keep the conversation light, and away from relationship issues.

I am afraid, though. Typically we start up like that, and pretty soon he is violating my boundaries, breaking agreements we have in place ( to rebuild trust). It all ends up in tears.

The only thing I can think of if that happens again is to disengage again. It feels disheartening.

I am doing better with the panic attacks. The therapy has been really helpful. I noticed that I don't really have the big ones except with him. As soon as I start talking to him, I start have mild ones.

Maybe people wonder why I am even still here. I love him, that is why, but sometimes I am starting to believe that it really doesn't matter. He doesn't seem to have a speck of empathy for me most of the time. And that is hard considering what he has done and that he still wants me to stay.

Patient, I think you may be right on the long slow extinction burst. What a grind it is.

I guess I will give it another week or so and see how I feel then.

thank you everyone 

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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 04:52:56 AM »

It is usually a mistake to try to "get past" cheating. Forgiven once, he will try to get it past you again. You will keep feeling hurt as long as you are with him, even if he never cheats again (which is unlikely). Basically, he gave you a reason to leave him. You're still together, and now he wants to add casual contact with other women, including one of his paramours, into the mix. You can see where this is going.

Personally, I don't think that BPD is a reason to excuse infidelity. I don't think I would excuse it in my uBPDh. He has poor boundaries, but not to the extent of having an affair. I place cheating in the same category as physical abuse; zero tolerance. As with physical abuse, concern for your own health should take priority. You deserve it.
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 07:48:20 AM »

D, the same subtle but toxic betrayal dynamic you're describing is the reason I'm not presently in contact with the BPD guy I care about: he would give me an important assurance that was meant to reassure me and make me feel safe, and then each time I went to rely on it, he didn't keep that promise and indeed acted like it was an unreasonable, tiresome and controlling expectation for me to have.

The latest time this happened it was not the hugest promise. But it mattered, I relied on it, then he shrugged and was kind of like "not gonna do that, you're on your own."  And something snapped in me even though the thing itself is not big enough or dramatic enough that I would ever have picked it to end a r/ship over. But the disappearing promises thing is, it seems. Continuing to participate on those terms feels like self abandonment. And unfortunately when that is happening, the kind of light banter that FF is recommending and the "do the r/ship don't talk about it" approach, which I do find works well with him, also feels like self-abandonment and it feels like sending a murky message when the message needs to be crystal clear.

It is often said that pwBPD need the other person to be super clear about boundaries and what is needed. I think you've been exemplary about this. He has some choices and some work to do. You've been kind and warm and have held out what he wants if he can take the minimum steps needed for you to be safe. That seems like exactly where to be. The ball is in his court and he wants you to accept what you should not need to accept in a loving partnership. He's still trying to get you to.

I think you should stay the course. 

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Daniell85
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 09:05:04 AM »

As I have spent time with my therapist, I have learned that the panic attacks, and eventually major outbursts have been a result of me trying to protect myself after I agreed to be with him again, and I was relying on him to keep his word on things meant to protect me.

Patient, I totally get what you are saying about it being a seemingly small promise/protective action that the pBPD decided wasn't important enough to keep their word on. They have taken so much away that we were told we had. I keep thinking to myself, it's a little thing, but it meant a lot to me because a lot was riding on it for me.

What I feel basically is that over time my boyfriend has minimized my "rights" as a co member of the relationship. I keep finding myself in that head space of NOT having any rights. Right to be treated with integrity. Not to be lied to, cheated on, disrespected.

So I end up now looking at myself, my whole life, and I think how the heck did I even get into this position. It has left me with a profound sense of worthlessness. About two years ago, I was hit with the cheating, and then the blaming from my boyfriend from what he was doing. It was MY fault, he said. And I ended up in a very dark place. I was not actively suicidal. It was passive. I felt on a deep level that my life was worth nothing and I didn't deserve to live anymore. I literally could not eat. I lost 1/3 of my body weight before I pulled it together enough to see a therapist and a doctor. Saved my life.

I let that happen to me. I let this person effect me that much. At this point, I realize he was (probably inadvertently) tapping into some core wounds from my FOO. He saw he had that power over me, though. It's been tough ground to take back. I feel unsure about my capacity to hold onto it right now.

The question I am asking myself at this point: can I set aside my fear long enough to create the mental and emotional place with him so things can rebuild enough to address the bigger issues later? What do I do when I am there, available, and he violates boundaries? I have anxiety about it. I guess I think the answer to that is, I come here, lay it on the table, and ask for help through that event when it happens.

I am rambling at this point.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 09:26:23 AM »

I am rambling at this point.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

I'm going to disagree... .

I think you are showing a big amount of healthy introspection about where you have been and where you are at.

I see you looking at "next steps".  Asking questions about the future.  Asking questions about what YOU can do in the future.

That strikes me as incredibly healthy place to be.  A place from which you can make major life decisions.

I'm going to give you a challenge.  In the next few days (when you are feeling strong and centered), go back and read your first 10 posts... .maybe 20. 

Then go for a long walk and think about where you were, and where you are now.  I think you will be impressed.

I am...    Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

FF

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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 11:55:35 AM »

I am super impressed too.

D, the impact on my sense of self of similar violations was very similar to yours. It was a profound assault on my sense of worthiness. In my case it deepened not FOO wounds but wounds from earlier adult r/ships. I too lost an incredible amount of weight and the passive loss of hope and spark was astonishing.

I gotta say I really question whether the next step here is for you to overcome your fear. Your fear is well founded. Recovery from infidelity ... .All the best guidance seems to say it depends on not just restarting without clear agreements and demonstrated honesty. Because otherwise, it would be too much to ask the betrayed partner to just take an unwarranted renewed leap of faith. Too unequal, too vulnerable, expecting one person to eat all the risk. I think there are important reasons why you panic at that scenario and important reasons why your superego is balking.

Also, consider that if you "cave" on your current completely reasonable line, about re-starting when he has stopped the anxiety-producing behaviors, you are taking away from him a huge growth opportunity. It means something to choose someone as a partner--there ARE opportunity costs. Does he want the benefits of making that trade off? If you don't require that he make it, he may never discovery the answer.

I don't think this is over if you hold your line.
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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2015, 12:25:39 PM »

I don't think this is over if you hold your line.

Couple thoughts.

Holding line is great.

Is restarting a casual "chatty" r/s the same as what was before?  Or... .does it look like caving (to him)

You know him better than us, and we don't want to spend too much time interpreting his mind... .but we do need to acknowledge that  doing something that you reasonably believe will lead him to think you caved is not good.

Explaining to him that you have not caved is worse... .

Lots to think about...


FF
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Daniell85
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 08:56:19 PM »

He wants to start the chatting as "friends" with the idea, he said, that the lack of conflict would get us "around difficult corners" and back into the relationship.

He says this is because he would "love to cooperate" but he feels a lot of anger and resentment towards me so he "just can't make" himself do what I am asking. Asking in regards to stopping the provocative and scary behaviors.

The idea being on his behalf that once he feels we are ok with each other ( on friendly terms without conflict) HE will feel better about things and then his resistance to complying with not acting shady with other women will subside

I feel a little cynical.

Ok a lot cynical.

I don't think his unwillingness to behave himself in a relationship should be based on whether I am asking him to behave.  I think he just should behave if he wants the relationship. He hasn't behaved. It's like this catch 22. He hasn't behaved, I ask him to commit to behaving, he is angry at me for expecting him to behave and at me for being upset with the lying and cheating, so until I am not asking him to behave and stop lying and cheating, he feels so angry at me that he won't stop lying and cheating, unless I stop asking him... . 


Stuff makes my head dizzy. So the premise as far as I can tell is no promises to stop the scary behavior until he feels good enough about me to stop it.

As an aside, he did stop the one on one Frisbee practice in the last 2 weeks. What he has chosen to do instead is stop going at that time since hardly anyone is around, and focus on the times when he knows lots of people are around. I am guessing that part of it is to stop aggravating me, since I have been telling him I can't rejoin open chat unless I feel I can cope with the situation. I think he has a pretty good understanding at this point that if I can't cope, I am deciding not to be there.
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 08:59:22 PM »

Also, I guess I have calmed down some since coming here. I don't feel so unstable with everything seeming so out of control and I can't protect myself. I think I have a lot better understanding of boundaries. With that feeling that I can make myself safe, I feel less panicked and angry. It's helping a lot.
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