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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Small rant, big question about DH talking to SD9 after the fact  (Read 372 times)
kells76
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« on: October 12, 2015, 11:21:57 PM »

DH & I met with our counselor/mediator tonight. Short backstory, he was DH's & uBPDm's counselor briefly before they divorced. He's also seen Stepdad, so C knows us all and gets what's up with uBPDm & codependent Stepdad.

Anyway, no surprise, C didn't see any sign that Mom was willing to genuinely work together, so I'll post about next steps on Legal soon. But one thing C did bring up was a story that Mom had told him when he met up with Mom & Stepdad (to see if Mom would work with DH on PP).

DH teaches at the school where the kids used to go, and a few weeks ago DH "bought" at the school store a little trinket that SD9's crush (from the last 2 years she's been at the school) was "selling" -- not for SD9 per se, but because it was cool, DH sort of has to buy stuff that all the kids bring in (as their teacher), etc.

DH brings this thing home, it is kinda cool, we both remark on it, and that's all, until in a couple of days we have a "weekend" with the kids. DH knows SD9 likes the particular type of thing this is, so gives it to her. I notice something wrong with it, and jokingly remark that I wonder if Crush's Name knew about it, & DH should probably ask him. The whole weekend goes normally... .

Until tonight, when C lets us know that according to Mom, a few weeks ago she finds SD9 crying in bed. Mom's version of the story is that DH told SD9 that this trinket was from Crush as DH gave it to SD9. I think if I remember right, Mom did tell C that SD9 was crying over Crush. C let us know that Stepdad termed this action of DH's "evil".

For some reason, finding this out really got to me. I mean, here's how it could've gone normally: Mom finds SD9 crying over missing Crush, Mom says "You really miss him, huh?", holds SD9 while she cries, then talks about setting up a time to hang out with old school friends. (Or, in an alternate universe, Mom admits it's her fault for withdrawing the kids from school and preventing them from seeing friends   ). And here's how it sounds like it went: Mom finds sd9 crying over missing Crush, finds out DH gave her the thing, subtlely hints to SD9 how insensitive DH is for not thinking of SD9's feelings, gives SD9 confused idea of whether or not DH cares, and if he does care, it hurts SD9 (misattribution of causality).

I mean, I know part of this is my usual difficulty with seeing the kids get hurt and feeling powerless. So there's that. But I'm pretty angry with Mom right now. She had an opportunity to tune in to SD9, but instead, made SD9's feelings about MOM'S feelings about DH (the classic "insensitive" narrative). And for something that SD9 actually used to talk to DH about somewhat openly.

So now what? I mean, I know Warshak suggests being proactive -- that saying nothing and not putting the kids in the middle is no longer viable or good. DH is getting this two week old info secondhand -- should he bring it up with SD9? How? Mom is so, so subtle (almost pathological) in her phrasing -- I doubt SD9 could pick up on what Mom was doing.

And the last part is just rant: apparently Mom told C that she's all for "extending weekends" for kids with DH, but she thinks they go out and do too much together, and she thinks it's be better if he just had some "one-on-one" time with each of them where they could just "talk together" or "read more books". Lemme get this straight... .Mom portrays DH as "insensitive" and "evil" to SD9 but thinks they'd have a great relationship if they stopped doing fun things together and "just talked"... .Way to make that easy, Mom... .
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 12:16:45 AM »

Hi Kells

My ex wife would do a similar thing. Whenever she feels threatened she attacks. She possibly felt guilty that she had taken her daughter away from her friends but rather than admit this she has got mad that DH has reminded SD of this.

My exgf made a big thing about one on one time with my son. It felt as if she was wanting to keep me separate from my other family. Almost as if she didn't want me but didn't want anyone else to have me.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 01:48:44 PM »

It's really hard to see our kids get hurt  :'( I am particularly fond of the alternate reality where the disordered parent no longer does this   

Are you wondering whether DH needs to bring it up at all? Or how to bring it up?

It does seem like there is potential for a giant Karpmann drama triangle to form and spin out more triangles. DH talks to SD9, who tells biomom, who tells the counselor, who tells you, etc.

Also curious about the motivation for the counselor to convey the information to you and DH?

One way to exit the drama triangle while still addressing the issue (SD9 being hurt) is to ask validating questions and leave it at that. DH to SD9: "Is there anything you want to talk to me about?"

One foot in the drama triangle: "Are you sad about leaving school?" ":)oes it make you sad that I still work there?"

SD9 probably more than anything needs validation that someone knows she misses the school, her crush, and cares that she's feeling sad.

You can do a Warshak move simply by showing opposite behavior to what the disordered parent accuses you of doing. Maybe others have a better idea about whether the direct approach is warranted for this. In my situation, I tended to use it sparingly.

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kells76
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 02:50:26 PM »

EM, yeah, it sounded to me like that was what Mom was doing -- something about SD9 missing Crush made Mom have to either (a) face her part in why SD9 was feeling that way, or (b) shift the blame for the cause of SD9's feelings. I guess I'd hoped that however Mom felt about DH, and whatever she said about him that the kids overheard, maybe, somehow, she'd not involve the kids directly. It sounds like that isn't the case.

And the one-on-one time... .Not sure why Mom is pushing that so hard. Maybe it's threatening to her when we all have a "family dinner" together? I mean, the idea itself isn't bad -- and DH already does it. Gah. No idea what's going on there. Same with the "read more books together" thing. Already happening. Not sure why Mom thinks it isn't. Not my problem.

LnL, thanks for relating... .yeah, even though the kids aren't "my" kids, they're still precious, and seeing them get hurt when they didn't have to be hurt -- very hard. I guess I think there's a difference between "not getting the lead in the play" hurt and "Mom says Dad is evil" hurt. In a way I'm all for the "not getting the lead in the play" experiences, but it is much more difficult for me to accept the hurts that seem… excessive, unnecessary, cruel.

Yeah, I’m seeking feedback to share with DH on him bringing up this issue with SD9. Part of me is thinking of Craig Childress’ jiu-jitsu – that “setting the record straight” on DH’s intentions isn’t as important as DH BEING caring, and empathetic, and kind.  But on the other hand, I think of Warshak, and how now that DH knows this specific untruth is being told about him, shouldn’t he be assertive about what’s actually true? LnL, good point about the drama triangle. Hadn’t thought about it that way. I think C was bringing up the story both for his own clarification (having heard Mom’s version first) and as an example to DH (and I) about Mom’s commitment to making DH the problem and not genuinely wanting to work together on a PP.

OK, and I reread your part about combining the two “moves” – DH addressing the truth directly by BEING the opposite of how Mom says DH is. Which is good stuff. But, ouch, that hits my fear… what if that isn’t enough? What if, through this parenting process, and legal process, Mom is just so emotionally convincing that she overpowers DH’s genuineness? What if being committed to what’s actually true isn’t enough? I get scared about that, especially after hearing last night’s story. More stuff for me to work on myself, I guess.

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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2015, 08:52:35 PM »

Might want to have a talk with C as to the why of being informed. Does C think this is something that needs to be addressed for other reasons not given.

Talking to SD9, DH can just ask how she liked the gift and see what she says.

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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 07:30:32 AM »

Ubdmom may have made the story up and that is why I think talking to SD9 might be the first thing to do. My ex makes things up all the time or distorts things so much they are unrecognizable from what actually occurred.

I have many instances where our boys talk to me about something and it relates to an email ex sent me. Their stories are very different then their moms and they make more sense.

Recently I have been getting emails from ex about her back being injured and she is unable to work. She has a walker and a wheelchair and uses them in public. 

However, when she is in her residence she keeps them by the front door and never uses them. The boys say she moves around fine in the house, she bends down to pick things up,etc. They talk to me about it because it upsets them about what she is doing. I never asked them about it. She used the bad back when we were together several times too.

If the story is true then you can talk to SD9 about how she feels and validate her perceptions.

I found that, over time, validation and honesty worked to my advantage with our two boys. They don't trust their mom about anything. When they get sick they come to me even though their mom is a nurse.
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 08:33:40 AM »

DH addressing the truth directly by BEING the opposite of how Mom says DH is. Which is good stuff. But, ouch, that hits my fear… what if that isn’t enough? What if, through this parenting process, and legal process, Mom is just so emotionally convincing that she overpowers DH’s genuineness? What if being committed to what’s actually true isn’t enough?

I really, really feel your pain on this.  :'(  

The awful truth is that biomom might win the emotional battle for their hearts. It can happen. Although it sounds like SD9 loves her dad very much, and that's a hard bond to break.  

Warshak and Childress are both excellent resources for different reasons -- they both address ways to maintain the bond. I would add Don't Alienate the Child by Bill Eddy to your reading list. His book is more subtle, but for me it provided the aha moment. I had to learn to model for S14 how I want him to approach emotional dilemmas -- something I had never considered and to be honest, was not good at. I was chronically anxious and had to start verbalizing out loud the "moderate emotions, managed behaviors, flexible thinking, etc." that Eddy discusses in his book.

Power of Validation is the fourth book.

Validation skills come from suicide prevention -- clinicians could not understand why someone who should be happy was not. Why would an attractive, successful, high-achieving person with a family who loved them want to take their lives? It made no sense. Just like alienation makes no sense. The suicidal patients needed to have their pain validated before they could hear anything else. It's the same with alienation. In both cases, the battle being fought is the voice inside someone's head and the feelings in their heart. Telling them that what they think and believe is wrong can make the damage worse.  :'(

All of this is painful and exhausting, and the anxiety can devour you. The fears are so real, so chronic and constant, and the foe is so invisible and evasive. I hope you're doing ok in all this, and taking care of yourself.  

You're an amazing step mama who is devoted and committed to helping your DH and your girls. There will be progress one day, and backsliding the next. Things will seem ok, and then another bomb will go off. You'll make mistakes. Biomom will bring the whole family to the brink of disaster. You'll have amazing breakthroughs, and the girls will go through developmental stages where your hard work pays off, then it disappears when they encounter a new obstacle.

Then one day in their teens maybe you'll overhear them discussing a problem in an emotionally healthy way and it will bring you to tears. They'll talk about their mama with love and at the same time recognize that she has to be managed, and they'll use skills they learned from you to do that.

LnL










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kells76
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 05:55:09 PM »

David, another good point (of many!) about Mom possibly making this up, or majorly distorting it. If so, she did a good job of luring me in... .Sigh. I think what had the ring of truth to it was how the story actually portrayed Mom & Stepdad focusing on vilifying DH instead of comforting SD9. Hard to believe Mom would paint herself in a bad light that way... .Unless she doesn't see that as a poor parenting move at all? Anyway, thanks for the cooling-off tip that the whole thing could be baloney. I'll try to remember that next time.

David & LnL, I think I'll ask about C's motivations for telling us next time we meet. Good idea.
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kells76
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 06:05:41 PM »

LnL, thank you for being so kind. I get pretty worn out, scared, & exhausted, and so I don't always do a good job of taking care of myself or modeling the managed, calm, flexible thoughts & behaviors. It does help, in a way, to be reminded that this is for the long haul, and DH & I won't necessarily always see "progress" with the kids.

And you're right -- there are no guarantees. Mom might "win" the kids' minds. It is really hard because I do believe that I'm not owed anything in life, not even something that both seems so good and isn't even "for" me, like the kids being sane and healthy and loving both parents! That might not happen and that would be life and I would just have to deal with seeing the hurt in DH.

So I guess I just keep trying, no matter what... .I don't know. Not sure where to go with this. Mostly I just wanted to say thank you for understanding, and caring, for someone you don't even know in person who might be thousands of miles away sniffling from gratitude in the bathroom at work  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 07:07:05 PM »

This happened back in 2007 or 2008 when ex first left. She used serious alienation tactics against me back then and I was fairly convinced I could do nothing about it. I had a T back then. Our boys were 5 and 10 at the time.

S5 would say I was evil and abusive all the time. I tried different things and nothing seemed to work. One day S5 said I was evil and I had an immediate thought. I stood up and stuck my arms out like Frankenstein. I chased him around the house. He loved it. After that he always wanted the evil daddy monster to get him. It was amazing how well it worked. It was those kinds of things that did the most help for me. I never mentioned their mom or defended myself. I just went along with it using a humorous twist.

Another thing they used to do was complain that I was always punishing them. I wasn't doing anything extreme and was just making the rules in my house. I talked to my T about what I was doing and she thought everything I was doing was reasonable. I wanted to make sure it wasn't really me that was the issue. Anyway, I stopped at a convenience store to get a cup of coffee.

The boys stayed in the car. I also got them a Icee. I walked to the car with the Icee behind my back. They were not looking at me. I opened the door and put the drink into the car and with a stern voice I said, "Now you boys better drink this and enjoy it or you will be in biiig trouble. If you think I punished you before you ain't seen nothing yet." They were both startled and froze. It took a few seconds and smiles came on their faces. Since that time (2008 or 2009) they still ask me to punish them, as an inside joke, when we are driving somewhere.

When these situations crop up you have to take advantage. It really helps defuse the alienation.

Fighting things head on is often very difficult in any situation.

Ex and I were in a coparent counseling session. EX was fighting me about a school bag for our oldest. This was last year. I emailed ex because S16 said his mom told him she was going to buy him one and it was several weeks. S16 picked one out online. It was only 35 dollars and all the reviews were excellent. It was called a assault rucksack I believe. It did not look military at all. Most of the reviews spoke of durability and versatility. Ex insisted she would not get it for him because it said assault on the amazon site. She argued with me in several emails. I did not respond. At the meeting she brought it up. She went of on a tirade about how disrespectful I was for trying to undermine her parental authority by not backing her up. I explained that I hadn't purchased it because she was so against it. I also stated that I didn't purchase anything because she said in an email that she was going to buy it. Ex turned around and said that I could buy it if I wanted but she wanted nothing to do with it ? Yea, all this over a school bag. I simply turned it around and said I couldn't do that because that would be undermining her parental authority. Agreeing with her only made her angrier and she finally shut down and went silent. That was when the counselor realized the meetings were a waste of time and canceled the court ordered counseling. He wrote a letter to the judge ending it. He called me a few days later and said he understood how difficult ex was. I told him, at that time, I thought she had BPD. He said I might be right.

The only people that understand these things are the people on this site. I used to tell friends and they thought I was making things up and that I was the problem.

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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2015, 12:21:38 PM »

I just wanted to add that sometimes when presented with a "problem", instead of arguing it, my husband simply agrees.

"I'll definitely spend some one-on-one time with the girls on extended weekends... ."

It feels counterintuitive, but agreeing to something that you otherwise fundamentally agree with can make her feel pretty validated.

It's hard for her to let go (of control, of custody, etc.). Sometimes it helps to just make her feel more comfortable in doing so, that maybe she has some sort of say as to what goes on in your house. (which ultimately, she really doesn't)

It's the same way that Mama texts me whenever there's an abduction or attempted abduction in our area... .dictating that my SD13 is not to walk to school (!).

My first thought is "who are you to tell me? I'm pretty sure that I've successfully transported all three of your children successfully to and from school the better part of their lives."

And then I think that she's just being who she is and trying to usurp her control as a mom even though she has 0% participation when it comes to getting them to and from school... .and they don't walk anyways.

Instead... .I just say "No worries, mama. She won't be walking any time soon. I'll have her talk to you first if she thinks she wants to. "
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