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Author Topic: Setting boundaries/LC  (Read 520 times)
BonusMom

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« on: October 20, 2015, 08:30:43 AM »

Hi, I'm new to this board.   I was on the other boards a few years ago when I was with a BPDxbf and also had a uBPD mother.

I'm in a committed relationship with a wonderful man who has an ex with several BPD, NPD, and bipolar traits. We are co-parenting 2 daughters ages 5 & 7 with her. Over the last year and a half since their divorce, the ex has violated the parenting agreement repeatedly, including covertly withdrawing them from school on one of his days to pick them up and taking them out of state. There was also an evening where she called our home and his cell phone repeatedly, sent several texts (even at 1:00 a.m.), then rang our doorbell the next morning at 7:00 a.m. These are only a couple of examples of why I've stopped giving her the benefit of the doubt. Before these two recent episodes, she took the girls on trips many times on his time and often offered to "let" him have them on her time to "make up" for it. She has asked many times for him to take the girls on the spur-of-the moment on a Friday night, saying she has to work. Yeah, sure. When she manipulates the parenting schedule and the girls get out of their routine, it seems hard on the girls, and the younger one in particular acts out (often physically) at school, especially during those transitions. When my bf has conversations with her, things often get twisted and manipulated, he's glorified then vilified, and it's just plain difficult.

The ex's bf has sent a few emails recently to my bf (cc'ing his ex) requesting the 4 of us meet up with the girls present (he envisions them off playing while we talk and thinks seeing us together would be good for them) to discuss a language "structure" we could all use with the girls, starting with one "structure," then adding more. He's trying to make this happen before he leaves the country in Nov. (where he lives much of the time -- not sure how he plans on co-parenting from there or what his intentions are?). My bf replied no, we couldn't meet, and please email him what he has in mind, then he got another email suggesting another time and explaining more about the intention of all 4 of us having regular, in-person communication. Again, my bf said no, we couldn't meet up this week, please email him what he has in mind. He then received yet another email (quite persistent) asking my bf to suggest some times we could meet this weekend or next week if we want to meet, and to just tell him if we don't want to or are uncomfortable doing so, and, "Whatever it is, we can work it out." He also asked if it would be fair to cc me on the emails and said they'd love to know where I am with all of this. My feeling is that no in-person meetings should happen without lawyers present -- and without the kids. The only reason I can see such a meeting being necessary is if the parenting agreement needs to be amended. Her (or them) trying to control how things are are done in our household is unnecessary (but not surprising based on her history), and as I've read here, children are quite capable of adjusting to different structures in two households.

I see Limited Contact is the way to deal with the ex due to her actions. My bf agrees. How do you initiate this after you've tried communicating like you would in a non-high-conflict divorce? Do you just do it by setting the example of how you want to communicate, or do you lay it out implicitly? I'm not sure where to go with the last email -- whether to be very straightforward (that we don't want to meet with them, how we want things to look moving forward (seems futile with her), email is fine, etc.) or to just keep up with the broken record and be "boring" as some suggest (our time is committed, we'll let you know if that changes, please use email).

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bravhart1
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2015, 10:39:40 AM »

Wonder if BF was being prompted to do this by mom to look like someone else's idea?

BPD are very clever that way, and you said yourself the BF would be out of the country. Also think it's interesting to "ask" to email you, taking your pulse on these matters to see if they have an advocate or foe is very BPD. Either response will be used against you later. I know I sound paranoid, I come by it honestly after four years of everything being twisted up by my DH's BPDex. Good luck.

One thing we do is ask why? Why do you want to know that? Why do you want to meet instead of email your idea? Why is this important to you... .blah blah blah
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DreamGirl
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2015, 11:48:51 AM »

So I always try to be amenable and open to suggestion. Even when the other party tends to be set in their ways.

Is there a way to give the boyfriend the benefit of the doubt?  I know, crazy talk. Smiling (click to insert in post)

It sounds like he's trying to get on the same page. He sounds like a lot of us stepparents, just trying to bridge the gap and make the conflict less.

It sounds like she's a selfish mom (doing what she wants when she wants) but not necessarily a high conflict mom (doing whatever it takes to undermine and cause you chaos). Even the idea that she is willing to sit down and discuss structure, rather then sending you an email dictating how your parenting structure should be is a step in a positive direction. The fact that she would even allow you, as a stepmama, to be included is actually really positive. It's not so bad to approach parenting as a team. Otherwise, you get kiddos who are more then willing to get into some bad triangulation situations where a kid will use the conflicting parents to their advantage.  

Is there something that this guy has done to leave you thinking that lawyers need to be present at all discussions? Is she looking to change custody?

BonusMom, I wonder if you're having some PTSD type reaction with all you've been through with your own BPD mama and your BPD ex? I only put that out there because it leaves us wounded and weary. I tend to overreact to these kinds of situations myself ---- thinking there is always some underlying, manipulation going on. Sometimes there is. A lot of times, it's not half as bad as I think it is. I've also found that limited contact can involve face to face communication (with boundaries) with the majority going through written communication.  

I think it's OK to be open, and cautious.

I also would figure out your boundaries on communication when bringing in other parties. Is the boyfriend neutral? Are you? How does your BF feel about communication remaining between mom and dad --- that's a big one for me, I don't communicate major decisions with my husband's ex nor do I with my kiddos' stepmom.

It's about what's going to benefit the kids the most. Studies show that when divorced parents can get along (even if that means just cordial) and are able to effectively communicate, it increases a child's resiliency ten times over. Stressed out parents have stressed out kids.

I, personally, would arrange a meeting. Be open. Listen to what he has to say.

You just never know.  
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BonusMom

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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2015, 12:09:13 PM »

Wonder if BF was being prompted to do this by mom to look like someone else's idea?

I wonder, too. He did mention she liked the way he articulates things, and that's when he started emailing my bf.



BPD are very clever that way, and you said yourself the BF would be out of the country. Also think it's interesting to "ask" to email you, taking your pulse on these matters to see if they have an advocate or foe is very BPD. Either response will be used against you later. I know I sound paranoid, I come by it honestly after four years of everything being twisted up by my DH's BPDex. Good luck.

I agree. I am cynical, too, obviously.



One thing we do is ask why? Why do you want to know that? Why do you want to meet instead of email your idea? Why is this important to you... .blah blah blah

He said they both "are requesting regular, in-person communication with you and BonusMom because in our view, it's more effective and creates more familiarity than electronic communication. Do you agree?"

You know, in a perfect situation with 4 non-disordered co-parents, this would be lovely. That is not our situation, as evidenced by her actions (which I've barely touched on yet here). I believe it's better to parallel parent with her, as co-parenting hasn't worked well at all with her constant violations of the parenting agreement her clever ways of manipulating my ex. He's finally realizing he's dealing with more than he thought, that he was desensitized to her abusive behavior during their marriage. He's just figuring out how to set boundaries and how essential they are with her.

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BonusMom

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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 12:27:09 PM »

Thank you so much, DreamGirl!

It sounds like she's a selfish mom (doing what she wants when she wants) but not necessarily a high conflict mom (doing whatever it takes to undermine and cause you chaos). Even the idea that she is willing to sit down and discuss structure, rather then sending you an email dictating how your parenting structure should be is a step in a positive direction. The fact that she would even allow you, as a stepmama, to be included is actually really positive. It's not so bad to approach parenting as a team. Otherwise, you get kiddos who are more then willing to get into some bad triangulation situations where a kid will use the conflicting parents to their advantage.  

Is there something that this guy has done to leave you thinking that lawyers need to be present at all discussions? Is she looking to change custody?

It's her actions along with the horrible things she's said to my ex -- not his -- that have led me to this. She's very up and down. Right now, she's going through a "nice" cycle, which usually means she wants something. She hasn't suggested changing custody, but she did threaten to take the girls and move to another country with her bf last year (definitely against the 50/50 parenting agreement where they are only allowed to live in their choice of 3 counties, not countries). That seems to have died down for now, but it's still an underlying threat. She has also withdrawn the girls from school on his day to pick them up -- and taken them out of state. She wouldn't answer her phone. We had to dig to find out who picked them up and if someone kidnapped them. It was horrible and scary. She has constantly violated the parenting agreement in many other ways and has a way of manipulating him when talking on the phone or in person. It's high-conflict, although my bf's intention is to have peace, and he is a conflict-avoider, thus the history of her controlling him, and thus the way the parenting agreement has become more of a suggestion than a court order (in her mind). Interacting with her causes him a lot of anxiety and stress, as described in this article: https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/stacer.pdf

You are correct -- she historically just gives orders and tries to dictate things.


BonusMom, I wonder if you're having some PTSD type reaction with all you've been through with your own BPD mama and your BPD ex? I only put that out there because it leaves us wounded and weary. You are right -- it does. Good point. I tend to overreact to these kinds of situations myself ---- thinking there is always some underlying, manipulation going on. Sometimes there is. A lot of times, it's not half as bad as I think it is. I've also found that limited contact can involve face to face communication (with boundaries) with the majority going through written communication.  

I think it's OK to be open, and cautious.

I also would figure out your boundaries on communication when bringing in other parties. Is the boyfriend neutral? Are you? How does your BF feel about communication remaining between mom and dad --- that's a big one for me, I don't communicate major decisions with my husband's ex nor do I with my kiddos' stepmom.

I'm not sure the bf is neutral. I'd prefer that the communication be between my bf and his ex. We've established a shared email address, though, that we might share with the ex's bf.



It's about what's going to benefit the kids the most. Studies show that when divorced parents can get along (even if that means just cordial) and are able to effectively communicate, it increases a child's resiliency ten times over. Stressed out parents have stressed out kids.

Communicating over the phone or in person stresses out my bf, and he hasn't figured out how to not be manipulated by her when he opens up that venue of communication with her.

I, personally, would arrange a meeting. Be open. Listen to what he has to say.

You just never know.  

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BonusMom

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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 12:34:29 PM »

Here is a potential response to his latest email. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.

"Hi, ____. Thanks for your concern about the girls and your desire to effectively co-parent.

We prefer email to communicate important information about the girls. I'll let you know if that changes. It accommodates our time that is pretty committed and also allows everyone to gather thoughts. Feel free to use our shared email address _________@yahoo.com. "
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BonusMom

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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2015, 12:35:47 PM »

Thanks, bravhart1!   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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DreamGirl
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2015, 01:41:05 PM »

Love the SET format (Support, Empathy, Truth) and the word "prefer"! My marriage therapist taught us that. Smiling (click to insert in post)

When I set boundaries, I try to stay in the moment. Only because you don't want a situation where you need to talk face to face, and you get it thrown back at you. You can often set a boundary without necessarily voicing it in a way to the other person that is assertive - unless of course there is a need for clarity. i.e. If you don't answer her calls after 10:00pm, that's just your boundary "I don't answer the phone after 10:00pm unless it's an emergency" and then you enforce the boundary by not answering the phone. If you want the phone not to ring, then you express it... .We are in bed by 10:00pm, so please don't call after that time unless it involves hospitals, broken bones, or Elvis. Smiling (click to insert in post)

So when you say "We prefer to use email... ." might be something more like... .

Hi ex's BF,

Thanks for your concern about the girls and your desire to effectively co-parent. We are definitely on board.

I'm open to hearing your thoughts, but prefer if you send it in an email rather then getting together. Feel free to email our shared email address _________________ . We can go from there.

Thanks,

Mr. BonusMom


Your boundary being enforced but not necessarily expressed in a way that makes anyone defensive.

Again, just a suggestion. I try to have empathy in that I would get super defensive if my son's Dad and his wife tried to tell me they would only communicate via email.

However, I'm also pretty sure that he doesn't take my phone call in the evenings when they are having family time... .even though he's never really told me that. He just never answers the phone at night. Smiling (click to insert in post)

---DG
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2015, 06:17:18 PM »

DG's response is great -- I have one small tweak:

Hi ex's BF,

Thanks for your concern about the girls and your desire to effectively co-parent. We are definitely on board.

I'm open to hearing your thoughts, but and prefer if you send it in an email rather then getting together. Feel free to email our shared email address _________________ . We can go from there.

Thanks,

Mr. BonusMom


Bill Eddy talks about BIFF emails (brief, informative, friendly, and I can never remember the last F... .) so that you minimize the target. And focusing on your values (having things in writing) makes it about your boundaries, what you're good with.

I can see the benefits of meeting in person. I can also see how meeting in person might feel like too much at a time when you're trying to gain your bearings and establish stronger boundaries. It has taken me time and practice to use new communication skills, and f2f conversations can feel like walking on a million moving marbles for me.

If you do meet in person, a phrase I particularly love is, "I'm going to think about it." I also like, "I'll get back to you on that."  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2015, 01:03:20 PM »

Good tweak, LnL.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

You forget the last F in BIFF and I forget that but's aren't allowed.
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BonusMom

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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2015, 03:58:45 PM »

Thanks, DG!

Your advice is very helpful. That makes sense about staying in the moment when setting boundaries. I also agree that in this instance, it's not necessary to voice it in a way that is so assertive. By the way, your example about not wanting the ex to call after a certain time happens to be another issue we've had to address with her, so, thank you! That's perfect.

I love your suggested email response to her bf. I've saved it for discussion with my bf. I think he'll appreciate it.


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BonusMom

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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2015, 04:12:21 PM »

Thanks, LnL!

I'm glad you spotted that. I've changed the "but" to "and" in my draft. We also try not to use the word "but" since it basically invalidates what was said before it. I miss it sometimes, though.

I do like to keep the emails brief (even though the ex tends to go on and on, straying way off-topic). I wonder if that second "F" is "Focused?" I'll have to look up Bill Eddy. I also think it's important to focus on our values, keeping it about our boundaries.

You're exactly right about why I feel it wouldn't be best to meet in person (walking on marbles  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)). I believe parallel parenting is better right now. We can see how it goes with her bf now initiating a role. Maybe he can bring some peace to the situation? If it goes well for awhile -- if she stops boundary-busting, violating the parenting agreement, and trying to control and manipulate -- then perhaps we can try more of a co-parenting dynamic again. I'm skeptical due to her past behavior, not to mention the fact her bf is leaving the country again in a couple of weeks. I'm not sure how he will effectively co-parent being away so often and for so long.  

I also like your suggested responses if meeting in person. Smiling (click to insert in post) I've had to remind myself in the past it's okay to tell people I'll think about something rather than giving an instant response.

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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 11:56:27 AM »

Your advice is very helpful. That makes sense about staying in the moment when setting boundaries. I also agree that in this instance, it's not necessary to voice it in a way that is so assertive. By the way, your example about not wanting the ex to call after a certain time happens to be another issue we've had to address with her, so, thank you! That's perfect.

I love your suggested email response to her bf. I've saved it for discussion with my bf. I think he'll appreciate it.

Let us know how it goes!

It's hard to change the rules and set boundaries (for us and the other person) when you've allowed certain behavior for a while. So try to have a little understanding/patience if she freaks out a little bit. Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2015, 01:18:15 PM »

I wonder if that second "F" is "Focused?" I'll have to look up Bill Eddy. I also think it's important to focus on our values, keeping it about our boundaries.

Finally, it came back! The second F is Firm.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
You're exactly right about why I feel it wouldn't be best to meet in person (walking on marbles  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)). I believe parallel parenting is better right now. We can see how it goes with her bf now initiating a role. Maybe he can bring some peace to the situation? If it goes well for awhile -- if she stops boundary-busting, violating the parenting agreement, and trying to control and manipulate -- then perhaps we can try more of a co-parenting dynamic again. I'm skeptical due to her past behavior, not to mention the fact her bf is leaving the country again in a couple of weeks. I'm not sure how he will effectively co-parent being away so often and for so long.  

The thing I realized is that the change isn't when the other person changes, it's when we change. And that's hard! It's easier to hope and want someone else to be reasonable, to be more like us. It's hard work, really really hard work to change ourselves when the other person should change dangit. And even when I wanted to change, I found it hard to apply the skills and lessons. to really walk the talk. And I never really made it work in my parenting situation, something I'll struggle with for a long time (the family court system ruled my ex right out of my son's life).

All the lessons you've learned, and will learn, will come in handy with the kids, even if you aren't ready to use them with your BF's ex. That's the consolation prize, and it will go a long way, and they'll need it -- they'll need you. 

Excerpt
I also like your suggested responses if meeting in person. Smiling (click to insert in post) I've had to remind myself in the past it's okay to tell people I'll think about something rather than giving an instant response.

Sometimes, especially in long-term relationships with difficult people, it's also appropriate to set ground rules. "We agree to meet and want to have a productive conversation. This is a tough topic, we may not always see eye-to-eye. Let's agree in advance to table discussions if it feels like the tone is escalating. We can try to work on the less contentious issues. And if we can't keep the conversation civil, let's agree to part ways and pick things up in email."

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BonusMom

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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 08:38:59 AM »

Thanks for all of the continued advice!

I wanted to update about the situation. The ex's bf (let's call him C) is proving himself to be very similar to the ex, unfortunately. My bf didn't respond as timely as C wanted, so C called my bf at work, my bf said he couldn't talk since he was working, C texted asking if we'd go over to there house between 6-7:30 last night or tonight, if for nothing more than for him to meet me for 5 minutes to put a name to the face (like he really needs to meet me?) before he leaves the country next week (this is not our issue, it's his choice), my bf texted that he and I had late nights this week and couldn't meet, so he'd email him, then C called, left a voice mail (the tone of of his voice was telling, along with the things he said and the information he's been digging for - he sounds very controlling and dramatic), then texted my bf again. Frankly, that level of pushiness (feels stalker-ish) is a huge turn-off for BOTH of us and pushes us away. I'm glad C is revealing himself clearly.

C has been asking for regular, in-person meetings for all 4 of us. We are not interested. If my bf wanted to spend regular, in-person time with his ex, they would have worked it out and stayed married, or he would have accepted her offer to have an open marriage and live together as co-parents. Like most divorced people, he wants space and a healthy degree of separation. As for me, I know the ex and her bf have their own ways of dealing with certain issues. Again, that said, it doesn't mean that I won't protect myself for getting sucked into drama. I have worked long and hard to surround myself with positive, happy people who support me and do not add any negativity (obviously I would help a friend in need) to my life. When we don't have the girls, we are usually spending quality time with each other, and when we have the girls, we are spending quality time with them. Our time is very limited and valuable, and we don't want to spend it with them. Email works fine. So, my bf is going to email C today (finally) what was suggested here. If C continues to be persistent, we'll have to figure out a very direct request for him to stop contacting us unless it's an emergency to do with the girls.

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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 01:16:41 PM »

Looks like you have plenty of good advice already, so I'll just add-in how I finally got to LC.  I spent a few years placating my ex... .keeping her at a distance, not getting pulled into conflicts over text-messaging, not responding, or responding with one-word, non-emotional answers to good or bad... .whether violent binges of nasty name-calling directed toward me, complaints about her life situation, or sharing random stories about herself to try and take my 'pulse'.  I would either not reply or I would reply with "nice" or "cool" or "that sucks" or "bummer."  So, I was basically using implied LC boundaries.  My lack of response was designed to bore her and not feed the conflict or stroking she sought.

This changed when I got re-married.  My ex-wife claims she thinks my new wife is awesome (she is), but I don't trust it.  Still, when my eldest child (teenager) decided she no longer wanted to live with mom 50% of the time, my ex's attacks quickly resurfaced.  I wasn't "supporting" her as my eldest's mother.  I was wrong.  I wasn't a "co-parent."  I "should be forcing [our daughter] to go over there or at least to do counseling with her."  But I didn't.  A few times, I bit the hook... .not really out of retaliation but more because I felt like it didn't matter how I responded... .she was still going to do what she does.  So, I let her have it a few times.  I told the truth in very cutting ways.  And she took screenshots of it and shared it all over Facebook, garnering even more support from her mindless minions who think she's a misunderstood victim and I'm an evil person who pretends to be good.

Eventually, I was so emotionally drained from the constant drama that I cried out to help from some wise friends, including my wife.  The answer I received seemed simplistic.  I was told to block her text-messaging and write her an email instructing her that the primary mode of communication will be email from now on.  Phone calls are okay in case of emergency, upon which times she can leave me a voice-mail and I will call her back, but emails should be used to plan things around the kids as much as possible.  My wife will filter all emails.  Anything that is harassing or not about the kids will be deleted, and I won't even see it.  It sounded simple, yet thousands of "what-ifs" popped into my head.  "What if this happens?  What if that happens?"  The idea of limiting things in this way was scary, because I know exactly how she is.  She will do something and then blame it on me and my "mean" boundaries.

But I stuck with it, and it has helped SO much.  My ex-wife even talked to me once on the phone (about school for the kids, since under that circumstance it was just easier than sending dozens of emails back and forth) and apologized for her verbal insults over text-messaging.  I accepted her apology and returned to the matter of discussion.  She even went on to say that she thinks no-text-messages is a good idea (almost her idea). 

Anyway, in communicating with her (over email 90% of the time) I don't make judgments about things.  I state facts.  I am nice, but I keep it business-like.  She still plays games.  She calls the house phone or my wife's cell phone instead of emailing, but I do not answer the phone when I see it is her.  If she doesn't leave a message, I email her later and ask her what she wants.  I basically do what I can to uphold it from my side.  Email is the primary mode of communication.  Period.  She claims, even today, that she isn't getting my emails lately -she called my wife to talk to her about something else.  She's full of crap, but that's on her.  She better get that figured out.

It isn't perfect.  Invariably there will be times when we need to get a hold of her and she will make it difficult in order to have control.  But it is soo much better this way.  These BPD people are kinda like overly-sensitive children who have very nasty temper-tantrums.  Forcing LC is a way to keep the tantrum away from your family.  Eventually, they do tend to calm down.

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2015, 01:13:42 PM »

I like your advice, OOE. I agree that's a good way to do LC.

To update, the ex's bf responded with a long, disrespectful, (attempting to be) manipulative email, and he still hasn't taken no for an answer to his request that we have regular, in-person meetings. He basically said if we prefer email and we don't agree to his request, my bf has unresolved issues with his ex he needs to work out and isn't being a good parent. It's all on my bf, just like when he was married. He is very persistent also about wanting to meet me and questions will he ever get to meet me, what if the mom wanted to get together with me, etc. Truth is, my bf kept his ex updated as our relationship progressed (when we were dating and it was going well, when things were getting serious, when I moved in, etc.), and I have met her a few times in person and had pretty lengthy, friendly conversation with her (I could see right through her). My bf asked her a couple of times if she'd like to get together with me, and she indicated she was fine with the way things were, having met me and talked to me already. So, someone is twisting the truth, her, her bf, or both. Either way, his email is full of digging for information and trying to put my bf in a defensive position. We haven't responded, and my bf is considering just calling him and telling him to back off -- and question how he plans to parent from another country, where he is flying back to today and lives part-time. His inconsistent presence in the girls' lives is concerning to us, and we take him less seriously because of it. Who is this guy who chooses to disappear regularly to judge and suggest advice on how to parent my bf's daughters, you know? My bf really doesn't care to communicate with this guy and would prefer whatever necessary communication about the girls be between him and his ex (which they have been doing just fine with lately via email).
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Panda39
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Relationship status: SO and I have been together 9 years and have just moved in together this summer.
Posts: 3462



« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2015, 07:59:55 PM »

You've said "No" several times maybe it's just time to stop responding.  When does this guy go out of town?

OutOfEgypt is right on the money my SO did the same thing.  Email only and don't feed the drama.  In our case it is even more quiet because the kids are even (by choice and with good reason) low contact with their mom.

Email is really key... .

It allows you to slow down you don't have to instantaneously respond. When you don't have to respond so quickly you can really read the message and not give your first knee jerk reaction.  Is it even a legit message or is it just verbal abuse?  Do you even need to respond at all?  If you do decide to respond to any or part of an email use BIFF (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm) when responding.  My SO only responded if there was a legitimate concern about one or both of the kids.  Don't engage in the drama but you might want to save those emails, actually all of the emails you never know when you need documentation or just a way to show a history of behavior.

Remember we can't change anyone else only ourselves.  The ex isn't going to change so it is up to you to change how you react, or in this case what's most effective is how little you react.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Take Care,

Panda39



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"Have you ever looked fear in the face and just said, I just don't care" -Pink
OutOfEgypt
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: married
Posts: 1056



« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2015, 09:26:25 PM »

It sounds like loads of fun .  After having gone through it and stuck with it, I'm a huge fan of sticking to firm boundaries.  But as you are pointing out, it is not easy, especially when someone is persistent.  But, like Panda39 said, just don't respond.

You may also want to find an outside person that you trust to screen communications, if its that emotionally triggering for you and your bf (which it understandably can be).  Either way, the idea is to put a level of indirection between communications, a "filter".  Maybe that filter is you.  Maybe it needs to be another person.  If they are unreasonable and demanding in their communication, making personal and searing comments, then a line has to be drawn and stuck to for your own sanity.  We'd like to think that name-calling and harassing, demanding communication doesn't hurt or effect us, but it totally does.  It gets to the point where we have anxiety any time we hear the phone ring or get a new email.  We get stressed out, we lose sleep, we are emotionally drained, etc.  It sucks, and do they care?  Nope.  They feel entitled to being heard on THEIR terms and THEIR time.

Like Panda39 said, email is really good because it allows you to slow things down.  Communicating ground rules of what you will and will not read is essential.  And then having that "filter" layer to disregard nasty communications is the next part that worked for us.  If my wife so much as sees anything nasty in the email, she just deletes it.  Poof.  Gone.  Not my problem.  If they complain that their emails aren't being replied to, they can be reminded that only emails that are about the kids and that DON'T make nasty or manipulative personal comments are read.  Period.  Anything that even appears to move into the realm of personal matters is immediately deleted and will not be replied to.  

I like the BIFF thing that Panda said, too.  Good stuff.

I don't know how bad it is for you.  I don't know where you are at emotionally with all of it, or where your bf is, but I do know how bad it can get... .the stress, the dread, the emotional drama, how easily it consumes you.  Taking the leap and implementing a careful plan of limited communication, and sticking to it, has been invaluable.  I only wish I had done it sooner.

Believe me, they will try to make you regret it.  They will probably see your boundaries as a threat and an insult, especially at first.  But in time things will die down significantly and they may even see how much better things are.  It's just plain bad to let a crazy person set the ground rules for communication Smiling (click to insert in post).
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livednlearned
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2015, 08:57:15 AM »

This:

the ex's bf responded with a long, disrespectful, (attempting to be) manipulative email, and he still hasn't taken no for an answer to his request that we have regular, in-person meetings.

And this:

Excerpt
his email is full of digging for information and trying to put my bf in a defensive position. We haven't responded

Don't seem to go with this:

Excerpt
my bf is considering just calling him and telling him to back off -- and question how he plans to parent from another country, where he is flying back to today and lives part-time.

If your BF is saying no, and no, and no, and no, and no again, and then eventually agrees to talk in person, then be prepared that the ex's BF may think your boundaries can be worn down. That means the next time he does this, he will be even more persistent.

Why not a final email summarizing what you have said? "I prefer communication about the girls to remain between me and ex."

Or no email at all... .

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Breathe.
BonusMom

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 36



« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2015, 11:27:38 AM »

You all are so right! No response is the best response. Thanks for pointing out our ambiguity, LnL! Panda, he left the country yesterday. Guess that's why he suggested teleconferences with all 4 of us every 15 days. Yes, OOE, that would qualify as them insisting on being heard on THEIR terms on THEIR time. Not happening.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

OOE, thanks for your advice again on LC. I really like the way you articulated that and am sharing it with my bf. You're right -- we can say their boundary-busting doesn't bother us, but it does. Every time the doorbell rings, we look at each other with dread. When our phones ring with a number we don't recognize, we wonder if it's them. I've been stressed out and not sleeping well. This has to stop. They can't steal my joy if I don't let them.



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OutOfEgypt
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Relationship status: married
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« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2015, 12:35:37 PM »

 Yup, that's the worst.  Same here.  And we get used to it or don't believe things can get better.  But what a terrible way to live!  Learning to set boundaries and stick to them has helped me let go of a lot (and I'm still learning).  In times past, I couldn't handle not answering the phone.  What if it's an emergency?  What if it's someone important who needs to talk to me?  Now, if it is a number I don't recognize I automatically ignore.  If it's important, they will leave a message. And yet somehow the world didn't end.   hehe

It can be pretty eye-opening to realize how much we allow from people like this who expect everything on their time and their terms.  But don't beat yourself up about it.  We don't have to put in nearly as much effort with most people.  Most people have a basic sense of respect for other people or at the very least a restraining social fear of appearing like a crazy moron.  But some just don't... .
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bravhart1
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
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« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2015, 04:36:51 PM »

I used to feel that way about not answering the phone because of the kids, but then I changed my message to say for personal reasons I screen all calls, so please leave a message, no calls gets "answered". If required I call back, or ignore. And no important call has been missed.

We set up a separate email account just for BPDm, and don't respond unless it suits us, or serves a purpose that is useful.

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BonusMom

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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2015, 09:39:51 AM »

SO true, OOE!

We don't have to put in nearly as much effort with most people.  Most people have a basic sense of respect for other people or at the very least a restraining social fear of appearing like a crazy moron.  But some just don't... .

bravhart, we think alike. I also created a shared email address for the ex's bf to use when he said he wanted to discuss a "vocabulary structure" we could all try with the girls. After his extreme detour/onslaught, I'm choosing to ignore that account. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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