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Author Topic: Validating anger when they won't admit to being angry  (Read 576 times)
mitti
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« on: October 25, 2015, 04:34:44 PM »

Hi everybody 

I struggled to name this thread because it is not just validating anger in a fight but validating anger where he won't even admit to being angry, let alone the reason for it.

My UBPDxbf and I had a huge fallout in January. I broke up with him. He wanted me back but typical his BPD behaviour he was very back-to-front about it and I felt too hurt by what had happened, but also didn't properly understand because of a backstory that is just too complicated to get into here.

After trying for a month, he got increasingly more and more angry with me for not just taking him back though it was difficult for him to explicitly tell me this is what he wanted. There was NC for about 4 months, he resumed a r/s with another woman he had been seeing. Then a longtime friend of his talked to me and through her I was made to understand that he wanted to reconcile. I contacted him but I was not making it clear to him what I wanted. He communicated that he feared being rejected by me. It was just stupid really because both of us were too fearful of rejection, felt hurt and humiliated. Since then contact has been about this backstory, instead of our feelings for each other. Really bad way of communicating, I know.

So, without making this into a long story, what has happened since then is that he has gone back to feeling angry with me and has been accusing me of stalking him because he thinks I don't want him back and he will not admit that he does. And he knows I hate being called a stalker. So we had no contact again for a couple of months.

Through my T, I decided to ask my ex if we can talk with the intention of being authentic about what I want. But when I tried it backfired because he was irritated and I got scared. We slipped back into a pattern where he doesn't remember why he is angry and so he is finding another reason for his anger saying it is that I contact him. He wants me to tell him in few words exactly what it is I want, but I feel fearful of handing over all this ammunition for him to use to “prove” that I am chasing him. I cannot tell him in two sentences when he first needs to remember what he really wants which he has no access to when angry. He has often chosen to be vindictive rather than seeing this as an opportunity to getting what he wants also and then regretting it badly afterwards. I suppose because he doesn't know what to do with all his anger.

So his most dominant feeling is anger, but how do I validate anger when he will not admit to it, or the real reason for it?
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 05:47:45 PM »

Hi mitti,

Here are a couple of thoughts to mull over.

Excerpt
Then a longtime friend of his talked to me and through her I was made to understand that he wanted to reconcile

I would be wary of third party intervention.   Well intentioned friends don't always get the message right.   

Excerpt
what has happened since then is that he has gone back to feeling angry with me and has been accusing me of stalking him because he thinks I don't want him back and he will not admit that he does

I think you have to initially deal with what is put on the plate in front of you.   If the topic is stalking, you can't JADE, justify ,argue, defend and explain.   The response I see here is "I understand that you feel stalked.   I have more I would like to communicate to you, when you are ready to hear it let me know."   In your own words of course.

Excerpt
But when I tried it backfired because he was irritated and I got scared. We slipped back into a pattern where he doesn't remember why he is angry and so he is finding another reason for his anger saying it is that I contact him

I'm not sure it matters if this is a push, or a confused memory or something different.   He has communicated a need.   At some level you have to take it at face value and acknowledge that you have heard him whether you agree with him or not.   that's the basics of validation.   I heard what you said.   

Excerpt
We slipped back into a pattern where he doesn't remember why he is angry and so he is finding another reason for his anger saying it is that I contact him. He wants me to tell him in few words exactly what it is I want, but I feel fearful of handing over all this ammunition for him to use to “prove” that I am chasing him

his feelings are his to sort out and communicate.   you are not responsible to decipher or 'fix' his feelings.   what you can do is accept what he tells you and validate that.   and see if that increases his level of comfort and his ability to self disclose.

'ducks

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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 07:47:36 PM »

Hi babyducks and thanks for responding,

Hi mitti,

Here are a couple of thoughts to mull over.

Excerpt
Then a longtime friend of his talked to me and through her I was made to understand that he wanted to reconcile

I would be wary of third party intervention.   Well intentioned friends don't always get the message right. 

Sure, but this is the one friend I do trust. They have known each other since childhood and are basically like siblings. She is very aware that his behaviour can be very counter-productive and was trying to get me to admit also what I wanted. But I don't know this only from her.  

Excerpt
Excerpt
what has happened since then is that he has gone back to feeling angry with me and has been accusing me of stalking him because he thinks I don't want him back and he will not admit that he does

I think you have to initially deal with what is put on the plate in front of you.   If the topic is stalking, you can't JADE, justify ,argue, defend and explain.   The response I see here is "I understand that you feel stalked.   I have more I would like to communicate to you, when you are ready to hear it let me know."   In your own words of course.

The problem for me here is that I do not understand that he would feel stalked because I haven't stalked him or chased him. I am sure that he is feeling angry partly because I haven't contacted him as much as I used to and early this year told him to not contact me. Since we got back in touch I have asked him at times, since it has been up and down, whether he wanted contact and sometimes he asked me to please keep him updated or suggested to meet. When he has said to not contact him I didn't. There have also been times when he told friends to tell me he wanted contact when I said I didn't, and then he got angry. I haven't been clear or authentic, but I have not chased him or stalked him. So I don't know how to validate those feelings. I think he is calling me a stalker not because he feels I am stalking him but because he knows I dislike hearing it so much. He can be very vindictive.

This last time when we spoke and it didn't go well I told him that I didn't like being called a stalker and made him aware that when he calls me that he is basically making it impossible for me to contact him.

But the topic wasn't really stalking but his calling me a stalker is one extra reason why I am struggling to be honest about what I want.

Excerpt
Excerpt
But when I tried it backfired because he was irritated and I got scared. We slipped back into a pattern where he doesn't remember why he is angry and so he is finding another reason for his anger saying it is that I contact him

I'm not sure it matters if this is a push, or a confused memory or something different.   He has communicated a need.   At some level you have to take it at face value and acknowledge that you have heard him whether you agree with him or not.   that's the basics of validation.   I heard what you said. 



Excerpt
Excerpt
We slipped back into a pattern where he doesn't remember why he is angry and so he is finding another reason for his anger saying it is that I contact him. He wants me to tell him in few words exactly what it is I want, but I feel fearful of handing over all this ammunition for him to use to “prove” that I am chasing him

his feelings are his to sort out and communicate.   you are not responsible to decipher or 'fix' his feelings.   what you can do is accept what he tells you and validate that.   and see if that increases his level of comfort and his ability to self disclose.

 

But when I do it makes things worse. Until he comes out of the anger phase, he is playing this back-to-front game where he says the opposite of what he wants, but expects or hopes for me to somehow get it and do what he wants anyway. And when I don't, either because I don't understand what he wants or because I am accepting what he says, he gets angry. It's not so uncommon with lots of people I think, BPD or not, to express a wish by expressing something else but that wish, sometimes even the very opposite. It's just that written like this it becomes so clear how counter-productive it is to do that. I don't mean I want to find a way to play this game. I want to understand how I can authentically express what I want. If I can validate his feelings first that will be so much easier. But if he is not expressing those feelings, I cannot validate them. If he chooses to express something else but what he wants and I validate that, won't that feel invalidating to him?

Or can I just say that I hear that he is angry? Is that validating or invalidating? I mean anger is most often a secondary emotion used to shield us from an emotion that causes a lot more pain, right?

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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 08:47:10 PM »

What do you want?
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 09:09:04 PM »

What do you want?

Hi C.Stein,

See, even here I wasn't clear about what I want, no wonder   I want to reconcile. I haven't been able to tell him that, because I felt scared.
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 09:20:44 PM »

I understand that fear. 

Be honest with yourself and then answer ... .why do you want to reconcile? 
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 01:45:06 AM »

Be honest with yourself and then answer ... .why do you want to reconcile? 

Why does it matter why?
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 04:53:31 AM »

understanding our motives is part of the work we do to heal and grow.

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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 05:49:31 AM »

you cant validate the invalid, if he has no reason to think you are a stalker, ignore those comments and move right along, or you will get trapped in circular discussion where you are attempting to appease with JADE, rather than validating.

What you probably really want is closure, an end to the push/pull one way or another. You can't control his decision, but you can push him to make the call. Stuck in nowhereland leaves you in endless confusion, while he reinforces his role in victimhood.

Victimhood is a safe place for someone to linger to avoid responsibility their choices. Don't allow yourself to go there either.
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 07:20:34 AM »

understanding our motives is part of the work we do to heal and grow.

I love him. I wanted to move on because I thought that was what I was supposed to do. I started dating but all it did was made me realise I love him.
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2015, 07:21:21 AM »

Its great that you are able to identify your feeling scared which has led to being indirect with him.

Could it be that his "anger" is also from feeling scared and is a self protective stance?

Possibly, but it is important for us to be aware of our own feelings and how they effect our actions.

We can't control how others respond to us, but if we are acting honestly and according to our own values, it feels empowering. When we don't, we feel disempowered.

We don't have to JADE the invalid. He may think you are stalking him, but if you are not, then you are not. That's his choice to believe. You may feel you need to apologize for something you don't know, but it may be that you have nothing to apologize for.

Sometimes closure in the full sense doesn't happen. We may not ever know what someone is thinking. I have found that when I push for this, there may not even be a consistent reason. Sometimes feelings are facts in the moment, but the feeling can pass, then the facts can change.

This kind of thinking- wanting to know why or what is the problem, was just crazy making for me. My H would seemingly get mad at me for something that I thought I had to solve. However, he would also not express what he was thinking or wanting.  He used to give me the ST a lot, with me jumping through hoops- "oh honey, please what is wrong" and so I reinforced that the ST worked.

Now, it sounds harsh, but if he seems angry, I ask once, what is it? Then, when he doesn't tell me, or says "nothing" ( yeah right) I simply say " I can't read minds, I need words to let me know"  and go on my way. It is his responsibility to communicate his needs or feelings to me. It also is vice versa, and I need to be honest and direct.




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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 08:11:28 AM »

you cant validate the invalid, if he has no reason to think you are a stalker, ignore those comments and move right along, or you will get trapped in circular discussion where you are attempting to appease with JADE, rather than validating.

OK that sounds good, thank you.

Excerpt
What you probably really want is closure, an end to the push/pull one way or another. You can't control his decision, but you can push him to make the call. Stuck in nowhereland leaves you in endless confusion, while he reinforces his role in victimhood.

Victimhood is a safe place for someone to linger to avoid responsibility their choices. Don't allow yourself to go there either.

No, I am not looking for closure... .

He was interested to hear what I wanted to tell him and he called me, but it was triggering for him that I couldn't express myself how he wanted to hear it, perhaps it felt threatening somehow to him. I wasn't clear about what I wanted but I tried to be clear about my fears and inability to put words to what I wanted. But it only made him irritated.

I understand him since he told me a few months ago that he wanted to reconcile and I never responded. After this he has tried to get me to admit I had feelings for him still, but without admitting to any himself. So neither did I because he has also when angry accused me of stalking him. And now when I want to be honest about this I have no idea how to. He feels threatened and I fear he will be vindictive.

Omg I don't know what is wrong with me but I am finding it hard to find the words to describe it here even. Not because of fear though.
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2015, 09:05:41 AM »

Its great that you are able to identify your feeling scared which has led to being indirect with him.

Could it be that his "anger" is also from feeling scared and is a self protective stance?

Possibly, but it is important for us to be aware of our own feelings and how they effect our actions.

We can't control how others respond to us, but if we are acting honestly and according to our own values, it feels empowering. When we don't, we feel disempowered.

We don't have to JADE the invalid. He may think you are stalking him, but if you are not, then you are not. That's his choice to believe. You may feel you need to apologize for something you don't know, but it may be that you have nothing to apologize for.

I wanted to validate his fear to create a safer platform for myself to communicate from. But I cannot validate what he will not admit, that would feel irritating to anybody in his position I think. He is not wanting to reveal how he feels. He doesn't have to. He wants for me to just tell him what I want. Not sure if he realises how scary that is for me.

Having thought about this I realise that what I am scared of is not so much his telling me that I am a stalker, but telling other people. I would feel ridiculed, in public, and it would trigger my shame. He has badmouthed me to other people before. I am not saying he would this time, but it is what I am scared of. I just don't know why it would feel so shaming whatever lies he might tell other people. I know it isn't true and so does he.

Excerpt
Sometimes closure in the full sense doesn't happen. We may not ever know what someone is thinking. I have found that when I push for this, there may not even be a consistent reason. Sometimes feelings are facts in the moment, but the feeling can pass, then the facts can change.

This kind of thinking- wanting to know why or what is the problem, was just crazy making for me. My H would seemingly get mad at me for something that I thought I had to solve. However, he would also not express what he was thinking or wanting.  He used to give me the ST a lot, with me jumping through hoops- "oh honey, please what is wrong" and so I reinforced that the ST worked.

Now, it sounds harsh, but if he seems angry, I ask once, what is it? Then, when he doesn't tell me, or says "nothing" ( yeah right) I simply say " I can't read minds, I need words to let me know"  and go on my way. It is his responsibility to communicate his needs or feelings to me. It also is vice versa, and I need to be honest and direct.

I have changed a lot how I respond to his withdrawing. He doesn't silent treat me now. He did for a whole year but I think the consequences of that time were so painful for him that he won't do it again. A tough lesson to learn for both of us. That being said he hasn't found another way of dealing with his feelings. And apparently I am not a lot better. I have no idea how to be authentic when facing the threat of feeling ridiculed for how I feel or for what I want.
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2015, 10:09:17 AM »

Sometimes love is not enough.  What characteristics and qualities of this man do you love?  What would you miss about him?  Would your life be better with him in it, or worse?  Weigh the good against the bad and once you are clear on your reasons, then you can decide what you can live with or not.  If you decide to stay, then you know what to tell him because you will be clear on why you want him in your life.

I love my ex deeply and I struggle every day to keep myself from running back to her, even though she wants nothing to do with me.  She has many great qualities and is a genuinely good person, but her BPD traits and related behaviour overshadowed the good causing much pain for both of us.
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2015, 10:11:55 AM »

So his most dominant feeling is anger, but how do I validate anger when he will not admit to it, or the real reason for it?

Something to consider. Anger is usually not the primary emotion. Anger is a secondary emotion that is caused by another emotion.
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2015, 10:40:42 AM »

Sometimes love is not enough.  What characteristics and qualities of this man do you love?  What would you miss about him?  Would your life be better with him in it, or worse?  Weigh the good against the bad and once you are clear on your reasons, then you can decide what you can live with or not.  If you decide to stay, then you know what to tell him because you will be clear on why you want him in your life.

I love my ex deeply and I struggle every day to keep myself from running back to her, even though she wants nothing to do with me.  She has many great qualities and is a genuinely good person, but her BPD traits and related behaviour overshadowed the good causing much pain for both of us.

Love may not "cure" him, but it is enough for me to make the decision that I want to be with him  Smiling (click to insert in post)  And there are lots of things about him that I love - he has lots of wonderful qualities and we have all of our interests in common and he is the one person I prefer to spend my time with - but most importantly I can't say why I love him, I just do. This time apart, and dating other men... .it is always him that I miss. So my life is better with him in it.

He tried to "show me" for a long time he wanted to resume our r/s, but I was undecided. Now that I do know I fear his anger, or how he will respond because of that anger. I think he feels angry because in his world he "tried" to have me back and I rejected him. I tried to talk to him the other day but I couldn't muster enough courage to tell him how I feel for fear of rejection and worst of all ridicule, and this just irritated him more, so we got nowhere.
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2015, 10:52:52 AM »

[Anger is usually not the primary emotion. Anger is a secondary emotion that is caused by another emotion.

Yes, I believe the emotions beneath the anger that he is trying to shield himself from are guilt and shame. He has huge regrets for things that happened in the past and because he cannot deal with the guilt and shame this triggers, in combo with the rejection he feels from me and has felt from me for a long time, he directs his anger at me. Probably at himself also. His behaviour when angry is often often counterproductive and vindictive, he'd rather shoot himself in the foot then have what he wants, only to punish me. And he will take what he knows I detest the most and do/say that.
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2015, 11:12:19 AM »

You are caught in a catch-22.   If you want to break the cycle put aside your fear, face his anger and say what needs to be said.  He is understandably afraid and angry, pwBPD or not.  Accept responsibility for the part you played in fueling that fear and anger. 
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2015, 07:35:48 PM »

You are caught in a catch-22.   If you want to break the cycle put aside your fear, face his anger and say what needs to be said.  He is understandably afraid and angry, pwBPD or not.  Accept responsibility for the part you played in fueling that fear and anger. 

Thank you, I will do this or start with a part of it and see how that goes. I will take responsibility for my part in fueling his anger, like you said by saying that I understand my being unclear for so long must have made him feel angry and confused.

And then I thought to just be honest and tell him what I wrote here, that I have no idea how to be authentic when facing the threat of feeling ridiculed for how I feel or for what I want, and see if he wants to have another go at talking.

It's not telling him how I feel that scares me, that I can do, but it is the possibility that he might tell other people and use it to "prove" to them I am stalker just to hurt me. I grew up in a very invalidating environment where I was often belittled in public by my parents and what I wanted and/or liked was often ridiculed and criticized. I think they saw no harm in it but it has made me guard my privacy and made me extremely sensitive to mockery and anything that feels humiliating, of me as well as of others.
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2015, 07:44:09 PM »

Be honest and speak from your heart.  Acknowledge and accept responsibility for your own actions that hurt him.  This was one of the biggest problems with my ex.  She couldn't find a way to accept responsibility for her actions that had hurt me, and rather than face the damage she had done, she just pretended it didn't happen.  That only led to more pain and further distancing on my part, which in turn hurt her.  
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2015, 07:54:40 PM »

Yes, to not own up to your part just creates an imbalance. My ex finds it difficult for as long as he is angry but when he comes out of that phase he has always been able and willing to accept his part. But then he struggles to cope with the feelings of guilt instead. In any case this is one of the reasons I have always though we could make it work. And I am now finally ready to let go of things in the past that I couldn't do before.

So thank you for good advice, I will do this.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2015, 08:33:52 PM »

Be sincere, don't worry about being authentic.  When an apology is offered, but lacks sincerity and the actions to back it up, the apology means nothing.  What I desperately needed my ex to do when she hurt me was to embrace me AND my pain, and tell me with eye to eye honest heart felt sincerity that she was sorry she had hurt me.  

Instead of ignoring the consequences of her actions, she needed to accept responsibility for them and work to fix the damage.  If she had shown at least some concern and willingness to make amends then our relationship probably wouldn't have imploded.  Instead she avoided the issue and just hoped it would fix itself.   I know now that this may be something a pwBPD will struggle with, but I needed it nonetheless.  At least your eyes are open now, mine were not.

I wish you luck and I hope you are sure about your decision to reconcile.  If there is even the smallest doubt, you might want to think long and hard about why you want to this.
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2016, 04:35:16 PM »

A brief update

So I never got to speak to him again, because before I summoned enough courage he had left for a trip for over a month. By the time he got back I felt like I couldn't do it anymore and just asked a friend to tell him. I know not so brave or even sincere perhaps. Omg how fear can really get in the way.

And then I felt bad about not doing it myself and sent him a Christmas message and he wrote me a really nice one back. So after the holidays I contacted him again but this time no response. And then last week he is turning up where he knows I will be. In fact he told this mutual friend like a week in advance that he would go there, he is not usually that informative and then he shows up with a third female friend and refuses to speak to either one of us. And then did exactly the same a second time.

His behaviour there was passive aggressive, I have seen it before, and something has triggered his anger again. I don't know why and I suppose it doesn't matter really. The thing is though this I find hard to cope with. I have PTSD and now find it very difficult to go out. I am just feeling exhausted from all the drama. I don't want to stay home because going there is how I wind down. This is something I do for me and has nothing to do with him at all. I have been dancing all my life and this is more my hangout than his. He can go there too of course but I am wanting to find a way to co-exist and it is very obvious to those who know his and my past that he is deliberately trying to make me feel bad for some reason.

I will start a new thread to see what I can do.
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