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MaroonLiquid
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« on: October 30, 2015, 10:37:08 AM »

Hey guys!  Haven't been on in several weeks and things have been going remarkably well with my wife and I!  Here is the latest!  After I didn't respond to my wife's attorney several weeks back (sent a threatening email about divorce sanctions against me), nothing has happened and my wife and I have gotten even closer.  I truly believe that as she stepped up her efforts to get me to "engage" unhelathily, yet not engaging has continued to make things better.  She then asked about me switching over to her phone account and she pay my line if I let her stay on my insurance.  I told her that I would keep her on my insurance because she is my wife and I want to do that for her.  I left it at that.  Since then, no mention of divorce and in fact, I have not heard from her attorney at all.     

     We have spent a lot of time together, even inviting me to our daughter's birthday.  It was a great dinner.  Our son and I have gotten really close again and that is a great thing.  I have spent the night over at her house several times in the last few weeks.  In that time, a new "crisis" in her life has popped up regarding her father. I have listened, listened, listened and validated where I can without being "too validating".  I did ask her a difficult question regarding her dad and she took it very well as I told her that I didn't want to see her get used.  90% of the time I just listen.  She told me the other day that she really appreciated me just listening and letting her work this stuff out in her head.  She said that it has really helped her.  Anyway, her dad is not doing well and she has to go up there (1000 miles away) in a few days for about a week.  One of her sisters is being very difficult (they are a lot alike) and they are butting heads.  She asked if I could stay with the kids while she goes and I said I would.  My wife has been loving toward me, kissing me, hugging and showing affection.  I am prepared that as it gets closer to her leaving on Saturday that she may start to get emotional.  I am prepared to validate where I can and help her to leave on a good note.  It still amazes me that pwBPD live in "crisis" mode all the time.  I guess without one they are stuck with themselves.  I'm still taking things a day at a time.

     One thing that almost made me laugh out loud is when she said, "I don't know how someone could be so inconsiderate and use someone the "supposedly" love.  it's cruel.  My sister is only out for herself.  It makes me so angry when people misuse other people."  I just nodded and said, "Yeah, it sucks, especially when that person is supposed to work with you."  She said, "I know!"   Smiling (click to insert in post)  Amazing they don't see the irony... .
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 12:51:32 PM »

I truly believe that as she stepped up her efforts to get me to "engage" unhelathily, yet not engaging has continued to make things better. 

This is the part that "doesn't make sense from a "non" point of view... .at least a non that is uneducated about "the ways of the force... ."  (carryover from another post that has detoured into ways of the Jedi... .Smiling (click to insert in post))

Trust the force... .you must... .feel it... a Jedi gets his strength from the force... .

Glad things are going well.

Solid work on the phone and insurance... .

FF
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 07:09:39 PM »

One thing that almost made me laugh out loud is when she said, "I don't know how someone could be so inconsiderate and use someone the "supposedly" love.  it's cruel.  My sister is only out for herself.  It makes me so angry when people misuse other people."  I just nodded and said, "Yeah, it sucks, especially when that person is supposed to work with you."  She said, "I know!"   Smiling (click to insert in post)  Amazing they don't see the irony... .

My ex did the same thing.  I wonder if subconsciously she sees parts of herself in them, and this irritates her?
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2015, 06:18:23 PM »

So today my wife is preparing to leave to go out of town and she gets a call from her sister.  Even though the phone is to my wife's ear, I can hear it across the room.  Her sister said, "I'm glad your flying up there tomorrow instead of driving all that way."  My wife responded, "Yeah me too."  Her sister said, "Who do you have staying with the kids while you're gone?"  My wife said, "ML."  She said, "Ooohhhhhhhhh.  Wow!  How is that going to work?  Has he given you the tax money he owes you?"    Smiling (click to insert in post). My wife said, "Fine!  It's the best I can do."  She said, "Well, if you need me to come down there while you're gone I can."  My wife said, "Everything will be fine."  I'll be honest, it triggered me but I stayed calm and acted like it didn't bother me.  When my wife got off the phone, I didn't approach it and eventually she brought it up.  She said, ":)id you hear my sister when I told her you were staying with the kids?  Wow!"  I said, "Yeah, I did." And changed the subject.  I don't know if it was bait or what, but I was rather pissed.  Her sister made it sound like I couldn't be trusted or something yet I'm the one who has been here for these kids come hell or high water!  I also took care of my wife after she had surgery when they couldn't be here for her.  It hurt me but I'm over it now.  It just confirms that there is no telling what they have been told.  Other than that, everything is great with us.
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2015, 02:27:03 AM »

 

Would it help to just assume that her FOO thinks you are an "a hole".

Better to be surprised that they are nice to you than to be triggered... .

Hey... .you are doing great... keep it up.

I've had some challenges come up with the stress of the move... .really didn't want to dust of those tools and use them regularly.

Sigh... .

FF
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2015, 11:23:14 AM »

Hmmm... .yes, it was a bit triggering to you, but think about what it showed you, 'cuz this is really important.

1. Your wife's sister is another messed up piece of work. Whether you have paid tax money has NOTHING to do with how you take care of the kids. If that is a reason for your wife's sister to be 'concerned' about the situation, she's NUTS!

I'm pretty sure that mental illness runs in your wife's FOO, so when I say she's nuts, I mean it in a clinical way 

... .nothing here is really new information. And I doubt that your wife's sister jumping on the paint-ML-black bandwagon is anything new either.

2. What your wife did do (and didn't do) was FANTASTIC for your marriage! Look at her actions in response to this dig.

Your wife shut down discussion about the topic.

She didn't change her plans to have you take care of the kids.

It appears she decided that this was none of her sisters business. And did some good boundary work shutting down her sister's attempt to meddle.




Yes, I can imagine that you would have *loved* to hear your wife defending you and telling her sister to shove it where the sun doesn't shine. But that really wasn't needed, and while it would have been incredibly validating for YOU, it wouldn't have done anything good for the relationship between your wife and her sister.
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 12:58:09 PM »

 

Also... .why it was triggering is important.

Do some thinking... .let us know why you think it was triggering.

FF
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 02:57:38 PM »

Well, the week with my wife out of town came and gone.  I spent the night at her place the two nights leading up to her leaving and she was very loving, caring and we had some good times.  The amazing thing was she had NO DYSREGULATION!  That is huge for her.  She hasn't had a dysregulation of any major substance in 4 or 5 months.  The morning she left, she told me how thankful she was that I was there for her and the kids and that she loved me.  She told me she didn't know what she would do if I hadn't been there.  We talked a lot for the next day or so while she was there with her dad and then she backed off quite a bit.  I knew she had a lot to do in a short amount of time so it doidn't bother me at all.  Wednesday I got an email from her attorney (CC'ing my wife) stating that they have filed a motion to compel with the court to get me to sign the paperwork with the court and "would let me know when the court date was."  They must have called her on Tuesday when she started to back off.  Funny thing is, if they truly filed it, they would get a court date right then.  They lied trying to scare me and I knew it right away by the words they chose.  Plus, the paperwork was not stamped by the court or anything.  I stuck to my boundary of not discussing divorce and that night when we spoke on the phone, I didn't discuss it.  We discussed the kids day, her dad's family and their drama, softball and then we told each other we loved each other and hung up.  As always, refusing to fight or get involved in her divorce drama leads to us getting closer.  When she arrived, she gave me a hug and kiss.  We have been affectionate in front of the kids quite a bit lately.  When we got home from the airport, one of the kids asked to sleep with her and at first she said yes (I could tell it was without thinking).  Then about an hour later, our daughter said she was going to bed and headed for her room.  She said, "What are you doing?"  She said, "I'm going to bed in your room."  She said, "Not tonight.  I want to get a good night sleep and you need to sleep in your own bed."  Our daughter got upset but got over it and went to bed in her room.  She asked me to stay over and we laid in bed just holding each other for a while.  it was nice.  We have had several solid months without a single fight.  That is huge progress.  I don't know what that means for us, however i take it as immense progress.  I know the kids see it too and they hug on me a lot and tell me they love me.  I noticed one thing, she invited one of my daughters to go with her and our kids to a fashion show and included her in a facebook posting of them taking a picture together.  The same day as the fashion show was her birthday and we celebrated it together as a family and had a great time.  It's almost like she is slowly trying to bring me back into the picture with people that she knows... .Thoughts?
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 07:17:55 PM »

Thoughts?

You know what you've been doing.

You see how it is working.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

And as for what your wife is "thinking" or what she "means" when she includes you or your kids in how she talks to other people... .

First, it is improvement. Enjoy it (for now)

Second, when it comes to this kind of thing, and the greater significance, an amazing friend of mine once said to me: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2015, 12:53:51 PM »

Thoughts?

You know what you've been doing.

You see how it is working.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

And as for what your wife is "thinking" or what she "means" when she includes you or your kids in how she talks to other people... .

First, it is improvement. Enjoy it (for now)

Second, when it comes to this kind of thing, and the greater significance, an amazing friend of mine once said to me: "There is no cheese at the end of that maze."

yeah, good point.

So here is the latest update.  Everything is still going really well and has continued for months.  We now show a lot of affection to each other and she will kiss me and we tell each other we love each other.  The kids are being very affectionate with me again.  Occasionally my wife may make an offhanded comment and I just don't respond or change the subject (or the kids do).  The latest thing my wife is dealing with is the issues with her dad's health.  He is in an elderly facility in my wife's hometown about 1000 miles away.  He chose her a couple of weeks ago (when she went out of town) to handle all of his finances as she really is the only one capable besides her sister (she has 5 siblings who have nothing to do with him or each other). He is supposed to be getting released in about a month (right before Christmas) but can't go home because he needs care and his home is uninhabitable (a hoarder) and will have to be cleaned out completely.  Anyway, my wife wants to move him down here to live with her.  She tried this last year with her mom and it ended badly!  I just validate the fact that I truly believe she is doing it for the right reasons and doing it for him.  I just see the writing on the wall as far as this goes but I will not step in.  It's hers.  I did say, "Just be sure he isn't putting you in a no-win situation as he has done in the past." and she said, "I've already thought about that and I am doing my best."  I was surprised she was so open to that, but felt I needed to put that out there.  She took it extremely well.  He is already trying to squirm out of moving in with her though.  She has asked about my lease a few times lately (asking when its up) and dropping hints about getting a bigger house when her lease is up.  Not sure if she is considering us moving back in together or it's unrelated.  I know that she will need a different house when her lease is up because she is giving her room to her dad.  I haven't seriously thought about it as I know they change so quick, but still stick by that we would need to be in some sort of counseling for that to take place.  Thoughts?  

Also, I don't know if I mentioned this, but my wife's doctor put her on Wellbutrin recently and I have noticed that has helped her with her attitude and demeanor.  I know it's an anti-depressant, but thought I would share that they are noticing something also.
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2015, 01:06:02 PM »

MaroonLiquid, you are doing so, so well! Your determination and kind efforts are producing striking results.

It sounds wise to stick to your original plan (counseling needed before decision to resume living together) just so you are moving forward, rather than becoming vulnerable to returning to prior conflicts, and so both parties have a common understanding of things . . . like finances.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2015, 01:17:44 PM »

MaroonLiquid, you are doing so, so well! Your determination and kind efforts are producing striking results.

It sounds wise to stick to your original plan (counseling needed before decision to resume living together) just so you are moving forward, rather than becoming vulnerable to returning to prior conflicts, and so both parties have a common understanding of things . . . like finances.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thanks Kate!  I don't know how much is actual determination or just plain craziness on my part.   Smiling (click to insert in post)  I am actually determined but also curious to see how the dynamic plays out between her and I if her dad does come down here.  That will be interesting.  I'm just taking one day at a time and one issue at a time and that seems to help big time.  One thing I'm proud of myself for is staying even keel regardless of what she does.  That has taken a lot of work on my part.
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2015, 02:19:10 PM »

  I'm assuming that when your lease is up you go to "month to month", correct?    The more details about your situation you can keep to yourself, the better.  I would practice your line in your head about how you will respond when she asks to get a place together.  "Sounds great, I'm looking forward to getting back together in our living situation.  We can start counseling next week and should be ready to move in together in XX months"  Or something like that.    Oh yeah, she's asking because there is a plan cooking.  Or at least a possibility that she is knocking around in her mind.  This is a good thing.  Remember, you want to be able to say yes and "nudge" things in a good direction when doing it.  Have taxes come up again?  If I were you I would file yours early.  Let her do, what she will do.  Overall this is good.  One thing for me to understand.  If her Dad is trying to get out of living with her, why is she trying to get him to live there.  Just want to understand the story or dynamic there.                    

FF
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2015, 09:19:45 PM »

Anyway, my wife wants to move him down here to live with her.  She tried this last year with her mom and it ended badly!  I just validate the fact that I truly believe she is doing it for the right reasons and doing it for him.  I just see the writing on the wall as far as this goes but I will not step in.  It's hers.  I did say, "Just be sure he isn't putting you in a no-win situation as he has done in the past." and she said, "I've already thought about that and I am doing my best."  I was surprised she was so open to that, but felt I needed to put that out there.  She took it extremely well.  He is already trying to squirm out of moving in with her though.  She has asked about my lease a few times lately (asking when its up) and dropping hints about getting a bigger house when her lease is up.  Not sure if she is considering us moving back in together or it's unrelated.  I know that she will need a different house when her lease is up because she is giving her room to her dad.  I haven't seriously thought about it as I know they change so quick, but still stick by that we would need to be in some sort of counseling for that to take place.  Thoughts?  

Thoughts:

Her dad moving in with her -- destabilizing change for her. (Not your circus, not your monkeys, and you are pretty good at keeping it that way!)

You and she renting a bigger house together -- also a destabilizing change -- You are involved in this one. It is guaranteed to up the level of dysfunction you need to cope with. You sound really solid and strong, so you may well be up to the challenge, but know that this is what it will be -- more challenging.

You and she renting a bigger hosue and letting her dad move in. Uhm ... .RUN AWAY! Well, that is my first instinct, at least!

I would suggest that counseling as a condition for moving in is a bad negotiating plan. She could agree to it, but may drop out, or may not be very committed to it, and not have much in the way of results.

Instead I'd wait until she decides to do so either on her own or based on a gentle suggestion of yours... .and has been at it a while... .and has results before moving in with her sounds like a good idea.
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2015, 05:41:06 AM »

 There is wisdom in not linking the two things, counseling and moving in.  However, you need an answer you will stick with when she asks you to move in.  If that answer provides some pathways to "nudge" her in the right direction, all the better.  The hope is that you can provide her pathways to choose and that you are fine with any of those pathways.                    

FF  
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2015, 08:35:40 AM »

 I'm assuming that when your lease is up you go to "month to month", correct?   

Yes, I would be "month to month" at that point... .

Have taxes come up again?  If I were you I would file yours early.  Let her do, what she will do.  Overall this is good.  

Taxes have not come up again.  I think she finally realized that effort was futile and only did it to have something to continue the fight... .

One thing for me to understand.  If her Dad is trying to get out of living with her, why is she trying to get him to live there.  Just want to understand the story or dynamic there.  

FF

When she went up there to take care of him, he agreed that he couldn't live by himself anymore and to come down and live with her.  Now that she has been gone a couple of weeks, he is "waffling"... .The fact is, he can't return to his house (uninhabitable) and has health issues that keep him from fully being self sufficient.

Thoughts:

Her dad moving in with her -- destabilizing change for her. (Not your circus, not your monkeys, and you are pretty good at keeping it that way!)

Interesting.  Why is that destabilizing?  I see that as trying to stabilize herself and/or not be alone.  I agree it's not my circus or monkeys and know it probably won't end well.  I'm just curious to know your point of view and how you see it. 

You and she renting a bigger hosue and letting her dad move in. Uhm ... .RUN AWAY! Well, that is my first instinct, at least!

Smiling (click to insert in post)  That was mine as well... .It's going to change the whole dynamic she has going there.  Much different than if it were just me moving back in.

I would suggest that counseling as a condition for moving in is a bad negotiating plan. She could agree to it, but may drop out, or may not be very committed to it, and not have much in the way of results.

True

Instead I'd wait until she decides to do so either on her own or based on a gentle suggestion of yours... .and has been at it a while... .and has results before moving in with her sounds like a good idea.

I see your point!
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2015, 09:29:45 AM »

I understand why you would want counseling, but why are you making it a condition for moving back together?  You wrote before that you thought it was a mistake to move out of the home, and moving back together would resolve that mistake.  Instead of a condition, what if you said something like the following?

"Yes, let's move into a new home together.  I have a concern that if we live under the same roof, we may go back to our old ways.  Can we schedule counseling sessions so that we can make sure that doesn't happen?"

My feeling of saying counseling is required, is that it puts you in the driver's seat of the reconciliation.  You will only fully get back together if she meets your conditions.  That will probably result in a negative reaction from her.
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2015, 09:29:53 AM »

 As to grey kitty's point about destabilizing.   SHE believes she is stabilizing things for him and maybe for her.  pwBPD rarely think things through, so when he moves in and is "not grateful" enough or it doesn't work out the way she saw it in her mind, what is going to happen?  Plus, this is a big life event.  Those rarely go well for pwBPD.    Moving away from home is a big life event.  Moving a parent back in is a big event as well.  One reason it is huge is that it is most likely permanent.  Until he passes away.  Lots of reality will start to clarify for her and she will have an interesting time dealing with it.  Last dynamic (for now):  What happens when the rest of the FOO decided she is "messing up" dad?  Talk about a circus and monkeys, DUDE!  Yes this is not your show.  However, I would encourage you to read about Karpman triangle (or reread) so that when you see these dynamics at play you can offer gentle suggestions, nudges, in the right direction.   Put something in her head that she can use for a better, healthier outcome.  Be prepared to step away and let her do it wrong.  You do have a role to play here to "nudge" things to a healthier place.                  

FF  
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2015, 10:08:35 AM »

ML, I'm so glad things have been improved between you and your wife. Good work.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Now, I'll weigh in on moving Dad into the home. WOW!

I moved my mother from the home she had been living in for over 30 years, so I could be close (5 miles away as opposed to over 300 miles) and help her. Like your FIL, she was also a hoarder and it was a complete nightmare to separate her from her possessions, even the broken and useless ones. So I packed most of it up and had the moving company take it to her new house. Fortunately she still had the ability to live on her own, but as dementia took over, that ability soon became marginal and ultimately I had to institutionalize her after about five years.

I was so glad that I didn't have her in my own house so I could get away and take mental health breaks. She was a pwBPD and given that your FIL is a hoarder, he has his own mental health issues. If I'd had her in my house, she would have driven me absolutely mad. She totally dominated the airwaves and her energy was so disruptive that it was difficult for me to be around, except for a couple of hours a day. I brought in caregivers and she drove them crazy too.

That your FIL is a hoarder, you can expect him to create chaos out of a new environment, as disabled as he is.

Please think very carefully about moving in to this mess, and I guarantee that it will be a mess, given that several of your in-laws show signs of mental illness. If I were you, I'd renew my lease for another year and then you have an out. 
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2015, 11:00:00 AM »

Hi ML,

I have to say when I read about w moving her father in my thoughts were along the lines of GK and Cat.

Big life changes + FOO + BPD = recipe for some potential serious dysregulations, these boards are littered with casualties from those types of events. What is it ForeverDad says 'Beware, be aware.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) '

My thoughts are that you have waited, been careful, grown emotionally resilient, taken your time to get this next step right. Your w isn't going anywhere, so why not wait and then wait a bit longer, and then a wait some more  Smiling (click to insert in post) and see how this plays itself out.

Let their move go ahead, before you make any life changing decisions about moving back.

Counselling or marriage counselling should absolutely take place before you even contemplate moving back. For me it is the next step of this process for you. I don't think it can be managed any other way. It can also be used as the medium whereby you both start to explore what moving back in together is going to look like.
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« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2015, 01:18:14 PM »

Thoughts:

Her dad moving in with her -- destabilizing change for her. (Not your circus, not your monkeys, and you are pretty good at keeping it that way!)

Interesting.  Why is that destabilizing?  I see that as trying to stabilize herself and/or not be alone.  I agree it's not my circus or monkeys and know it probably won't end well.  I'm just curious to know your point of view and how you see it. 

I'm making an assumption about your wife and her FOO. I'm assuming that there is plenty of dysfunction, if not full-blown mental illness in her parents. Even if one of the two appears to be higher functioning, that one is choosing to live with and be in a relationship with the truly messed up one of the two. Conclusion: her dad is somewhere between dsysfunctional/codependent and mentally ill.

I also figure that he was actively involved in "installing" her own mental health issues, which will mean that he will know (instinctively) better how to push her buttons than anybody else. Pretty much everybody i know... .no matter HOW mentally healthy they are tends to revert at least a little bit when with their parents, myself included!

So living closer with her dad -- destabilizing for her.

Her less stable -- more drama aimed at you by her as a coping mechanism.

Does that answer your question as to why I think so?
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2015, 01:26:01 PM »

 It can also be used as the medium whereby you both start to explore what moving back in together is going to look like.

                 Maybe the is the way to frame it.  She will very likely jump on counseling as "something wrong", see if you can nudge it over to "something normal" and that the MC will help you both focus on a future and what that will look like.  Leave the past, well, leave it in the past.                  

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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2015, 03:22:21 PM »

Right now I'm a little frustrated.  I'm going to vent here.  Things have been going extremely well with my wife.  We haven't fought in six months.  If she tries, I always divert attention and/or ignore the comment.  Within the last week, we have gotten along really well, we went and picked out a Christmas tree together (her first real tree in years), just her and I, and we surprised the kids.  She thanked me profusely for loading the tree in the pouring rain and told me how much she appreciated me.    I told her, "You're welcome.  I do it because I love you and that's what husbands should do."  The next night, we found out that our middle daughter has lice and I stayed up with her until 3 in the morning helping her wash and comb them out.  She told me how thankful she was that I did it because I didn't have to.  I helped decorate her house and helped our son put her lights up outside.  Her kids and I have gotten really close again.  My wife and I have been very affectionate and even in front of the kids.  We have spent several nights together most of the time just cuddling (intimate once).  Left my wife's house last night after practice and everything seemed fine.  Then this morning, she goes silent.  I texted her with no response.  Thought she was busy and called her at lunch.  Talked for a bit (surface things) and then hung up.  Texted her later asking what time she wanted to meet at our daughters concert tonight with no response.  Knew then something was up.  I then get a call (he left a message) from her attorney saying that there is a "trial date" set for Monday (I haven't got any notification as far as being served or a deal from the court) and they were still willing to sit down and talk with me.  If I didn't sit down with them that I would need to show up for court.  I think this is another tactic of her attorney, but I will call the courthouse and find out if there is one.  Honestly, I don't know how to feel at the moment.  This is that cycle where we are great until she gets contacted by her attorney and she then pulls back.  When I don't respond to it and feed whatever stunt she is trying to pull, we get closer.  I feel like she was being genuine with me and we really have come a long way.  A part of me also feels like Charlie Brown trying to kick the ball and Lucy pulls it back at the last second.  I'm tired of her creating drama with me where there is none.  I'm not going to react.  The unhealthy part of her wants that.  To get me embroiled in it and be a part of it.  Thoughts?

So living closer with her dad -- destabilizing for her.

Her less stable -- more drama aimed at you by her as a coping mechanism.

Does that answer your question as to why I think so?

Yes it does.  
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2015, 03:57:10 PM »

  You have a pattern that has been working.  Keep doing it.  If there is a court action or something there.  You need a lawyer.  You don't know what you don't know, even though I agree it seems like a simple thing.  1.  Not talking to your wife about the divorce is working.  Continue it.  2.  If you end up in court about the divorce.  Tell your lawyer you don't want a divorce and have him (and you if appropriate) communicate that to the court.  No matter what, don't settle, if she wants the divorce make her get it.  You live your values and she lives hers.  My guess about what is going on:  She is afraid to call off lawyer and is also afraid to proceed.  Most likely she has paid money and given instructions to proceed a while back.  Lawyer is informing here of progress and next steps, she probably sits there like deer in headlights.  That is a guess, but I think I would put some money on it, from what I know of your story.                

FF
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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2015, 07:27:04 PM »

Ugh, ugh, UGH!

You know the drill. You know how much it sucks. And you know what to do. Wait 'till you get something from the lawyer that you need to respond to, as opposed to a request that you do so. And I guess show up in court if there is a court date.

Hang in there!
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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2015, 08:10:40 PM »

 And I guess show up in court if there is a court date.  

               Actually, here is a question to ask a lawyer.  What happens if you don't show up.  My guess is she gets a default judgment.  I would want to make sure that this doesn't make your situation worse.  Thoughts?  Oh yeah, what GK said.  Uggghhh.  Dude, you are doing well, this sucks.  Hang in there.                

FF
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2015, 08:19:44 PM »

Gosh, I'm sorry ML. I was going to say it seems like the old push/pull until I read the sentence about the lawyer.

I'm not sure, but I doubt that you are bound to appear unless you get a subpoena or summons, rather than just a phone call from opposing counsel. This will be on the court docket, so it should be easy to find out.

It seems that the attorney is triangulating with your wife, whether or not she currently feels like pursuing this divorce.
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« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2015, 08:25:38 PM »

Uggh, for sure!

Family law can be quirky and unpredictable under the best of circumstances. I would second (or third) the idea of consulting a lawyer in your own jurisdiction.

Do you have access to documents already filed with the court in your case? Not as a substitute for an attorney's guidance, but just to have a peek at what the heck is going on as of this moment in filings?

I too am thinking that if you don't show up and the lawyer is under the assumption that this is a "real" divorce action, then he could walk out of the courthouse with a signed default judgment that would include whatever your wife at some point asked for.

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« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2015, 09:36:35 PM »

  KateCat is right.  The more I think of it, I would modify my advice to say if you want to make a stand about "not participating" in a divorce action by not showing up, then send your lawyer.  Obviously, before any of this, big consultation.  ML, I know you have done some research and feel comfortable that yours is a simple divorce case, low risk.  You are most likely right.  But, you don't know, what you don't know.  The job of an L is to examine your situation, AND YOUR DESIRED OUTCOME, and apply the law (or more technically petition the court to order the law applied to your situation)  What if you show up and she doesn't, and your L puts something their way that the other L can't answer without her there.  Or what if you go in with an offer to dismiss the action.  A post-nuptial agreement  OK, Grey Kitty and KateCat may have to pull the reins on me here (I tend to have a "fighter"/"feisty" side to me that is sometimes problematic.    On the other hand, sometimes fighting fire with fire is appropriate.  Especially when it is unusual and will be paid attention to.  If you switch your tactics, your wife will notice.  Here is my idea:  Get your lawyer, create a post-nuptial agreement.  Put insurance and other stuff she cares about in there.  Heck, put some stuff in there about taxes, 401k loans.  Put in there about living in same house, counseling, whatever you want.  Don't talk to her about it, have your L send it to hers, or propose it in court.  I'm either a genius, or many will assume I have a snoot full.  Thoughts?            

FF
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« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2015, 09:51:46 PM »

If your desired outcome is to stay married (which it was last I recall you speaking of it), no legal action is required on your part to do that. You have no need to propose anything through your own lawyer.

If you have any questions or doubts, a quick consult with a lawyer about this trial date stuff is in order.

I'd suggest that next time you get a call from her lawyer, try "Send it to me in writing. I don't want to discuss anything on the phone."
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« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2015, 10:11:38 PM »

   I'd suggest that next time you get a call from her lawyer, try "Send it to me in writing. I don't want to discuss anything on the phone."

           How do you know it was her lawyer and not a weird trick.  I can't believe that didn't jump out at me before.  Trial notifications are not done over the phone.  Have you ever talked to this guy before?            

FF
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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2015, 10:45:50 PM »

The idea of a trial notification being done by phone seems utterly bizarre to me too.   I think I remember you informed the guy that you were not going to participate in the divorce action, but does that relieve him of his professional duty to provide notice to all parties? WTH?

A friend of mine just completed a divorce in which his wife threatened all kinds of stuff right up to the presentation of final orders, and then she just didn't show up and he was instantly divorced, on the financial terms he was expecting. I worry that Monday is practically here, just in case the attorney is not bluffing and is really prepared to enter an order that will be hard for you to live with.

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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2015, 11:40:00 PM »

Ok, so tonight was our daughter's choir concert.  When I got no response from her, I decided to show up and she was sitting with a friend of our daughter.  I walked up to her and said, "Is there room for me here or are those seats already taken?"  You should have seen her face.  She looked shocked and said, "Sure, there's an extra seat!"  They scooted down a seat and let me sit down.  She then said, "I didn't know you would be here.  I figured you weren't coming when I didn't hear from you."  I said, "I texted you asking what time you wanted to meet here." And showed her the text.  She said, "I didn't get it and pulled out her phone and checked her texts.  She said, "Oh, here it is, I never saw it.  Sorry."  The funny thing is, if she hadn't seen it, my thread would have had a blue dot next to it showing that she had an unread message (iPhone).  Also, she had texts back and forth to other people since mine at 11:30AM.  She obviously lied.  I just said, "No problem."  So during the concert, she asked if I wanted to come over for some chili.  I agreed and she hugged and kissed me like she had the last several days.  Strange... .

Here is what I'm thinking regarding the latest with her lawyer.  I have heard from him once several months ago but from his paralegal several times, even by email.  I have never talked to them, answered their phone calls or emails.  I think it's a big bunch of BS honestly (trial date on Monday) trying to get me to "sit down" by scaring me.  My wife isn't giving him the ok to end the divorce so I think he is trying to do what he can and still represent her.  I will call the court tomorrow.  Here's the thing, they supposedly filed a motion to compel me to answer their questions.  Yet no court date ever came through on that.  Now they are threatening a trial.  I think it's all a bunch of BS.
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« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2015, 12:14:46 AM »

The text she "didn't see" ... .

She gets upset (for whatever reason), and she rejects you, give you the silent treatment, ignores you/etc.

She knows it. You know it.

Then when you show up anyway, she has two choices: say "Whups, I tried to reject you and shut you out of this event, and you showed up here anyway. Geez, am I embarrassed." (NOT LIKELY   ) or pretend that it was an accident.

Honestly, next time this kinda thing happens, don't even bother challenging the first lame attempt at an excuse. You know what is going on. (Even if you don't know what sent her 'round that bend)

The most important part is whether she is ready to welcome you back or needs to freeze you out longer. Obviously this time she was ready to come back.

... .

And that strategy may help you with the legal stuff. If she's trying to find a lame excuse to back down, pretending she never did something in the first place... .don't argue with it, as long as she's backing down.
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« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2015, 09:33:20 AM »

The text she "didn't see" ... .

She gets upset (for whatever reason), and she rejects you, give you the silent treatment, ignores you/etc.

She knows it. You know it.

That's the hardest thing about this illness is that we both know what she are doing... .

Then when you show up anyway, she has two choices: say "Whups, I tried to reject you and shut you out of this event, and you showed up here anyway. Geez, am I embarrassed." (NOT LIKELY   ) or pretend that it was an accident.

Yep, like we are "that stupid"... . Smiling (click to insert in post)  I loved the excuse that she was soo busy but yet saw that she had time to text 4 other people throughout the day.   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) 

Honestly, next time this kinda thing happens, don't even bother challenging the first lame attempt at an excuse. You know what is going on. (Even if you don't know what sent her 'round that bend)

The most important part is whether she is ready to welcome you back or needs to freeze you out longer. Obviously this time she was ready to come back.

... .

And that strategy may help you with the legal stuff. If she's trying to find a lame excuse to back down, pretending she never did something in the first place... .don't argue with it, as long as she's backing down.

Well, texted her again this morning and back to not responding... .YAYYYYYY!      Anyway, whatever.  I find it amusing that she does this now.  I actually like being strong enough to withstand this childish crap.  I like being strong enough that it no longer bothers me and that I can laugh about it.
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2015, 10:35:21 AM »

Did you call the court? If so, is there anything on the docket for Monday?

If so... .I'd recommend moving to posting about it on the Legal board instead of this one.

If not... .which sounds more likely to me... .carry on... .you've got this.

Either way, it is tough.   
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2015, 12:48:49 AM »

So I called my wife's bluff and now I'm getting the ST.  We had a softball tournament all weekend (we came in second) and her lawyer texted me in the middle of the day Sunday saying he would like me to call him so we can discuss the "court proceedings" tomorrow (today) , or if I would still like to read over a divorce decree that I could sign it and "avoid court".  Another thing that tipped me off was he didn't put a time that I was supposed to be there.  I knew right then it was BS.  I'm beginning to think that my wife told him if he threatened me with court that I would fold (another delay tactic on her part manipulating the attorney).  I didn't get it till late yesterday evening after the trophy presentation and didn't mention it.  On the way back to my wife's house from the tournament (our daughter fell asleep), she said, "So are you showing up to court in the morning?"  I said, "No, I have to work."  She couldn't stand that I wouldn't approach it.  She then said, "You can't bury your head in the sand forever."  I said, "I'm not burying my head in the sand, I just refuse to be involved in something I don't believe in.  I've made that clear since the beginning.  I love you and the kids"  She said, "Talk is cheap, it is shown by actions."  I said, "You're absolutely right." And left it at that.  My actions for over a year and even in the last month have proven it.  I just let it sit with her.  She responded a minute or so later, "Eventually we will be divorced."  I said, "Thats not what I want, but I f that's what you feel you need to do, then that will be your decision."  She then dropped it.  We again never raised our voices, or said any hateful things.  I left her house and didn't hear from her at all today.  I went to the kids choir concert and she was working the refreshments booth (she's on the choir booster club) and I went to buy something and almost fell out laughing.  The woman right before me asked her a question and she was so talkative and helpful.  She then noticed me (acted like we had never met) and I said, "I'll take one of these." and she responded, "That will be 2 dollars."  and walked off to the person behind me and got sweet as pie again and all helpful explaining what all they had.  It was ridiculous!   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  She was a frigid b!tch!  I wanted to turn and say, "Gee honey, good to see you too!  I just walked off and then left later.  Amazing just Saturday she was telling me in front of the kids that she loved me and back to frigid b!tch ST again today.  It doesn't bother or shock me anymore however.  She realizes once again that her games don't work on me any longer. 
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2015, 11:54:20 AM »

  She then said, "You can't bury your head in the sand forever."  I said, "I'm not burying my head in the sand, I just refuse to be involved in something I don't believe in.  I've made that clear since the beginning.  I love you and the kids"  She said, "Talk is cheap, it is shown by actions."  I said, "You're absolutely right." And left it at that.  My actions for over a year and even in the last month have proven it.  I just let it sit with her.  She responded a minute or so later, "Eventually we will be divorced."  I said, "Thats not what I want, but I f that's what you feel you need to do, then that will be your decision."   

          Solid work on this.  Let her own all of it.  Have you talked to a lawyer?  That is my one concern, that there is something about this that you don't know.  Or an angle you haven't considered.          

FF  
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2015, 06:58:46 PM »

I second formflier. If you don't want to spend the money for a consultation (and sometimes they will offer a free initial consultation), there is likely a legal aid group in your vicinity.

This attorney has shown himself to be sleazy by lying to you about the court date, so you don't really know what he has up his sleeve. Please get some legal advice.
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2015, 07:07:56 PM »

I second formflier. If you don't want to spend the money for a consultation (and sometimes they will offer a free initial consultation), there is likely a legal aid group in your vicinity.   This attorney has shown himself to be sleazy by lying to you about the court date, so you don't really know what he has up his sleeve. Please get some legal advice.

         Cat Familiar and I have been talking lawyer stuff in other threads.  I'm continuing this thought over here.  One think I would discuss with your lawyer, is did the other lawyer (if it was him) violate a code of ethics by lying to you about a court date.  It's certainly odd behavior.  Listen, people are used to sleazy stuff in divorce cases, the lawyers are involved to sometimes act as "parents" and keep things under control, or attempt to.  If there is a lawyer participating in this crap, my initial reaction is to report that to the bar if it is a  probably violation.  You would have to read the code of ethics in your state's bar to figure that out.  If his L has a history of sketchy stuff, this one may push him over the edge.  You need more information before proceeding.          

FF
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« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2015, 08:37:03 PM »

So has anything happened since you failed to respond to a fake summons?
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« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2015, 08:19:56 AM »

So has anything happened since you failed to respond to a fake summons?

Nothing really.  The next day was softball practice which she invited me over to her house afterwards and we ate dinner and I was supposed to pick something up from her for one of our team fundraisers, but told her I would get it the next day after another of our kids choir concerts this week.  She said, ":)o you have a ticket?"  I said, "No."  She said to call the box office at the church where it is being held early the next morning.  This pissed me off because we had talked about me going for a week and she didn't think enough of me to get a ticket when she went to go buy hers.  Honestly, I didn't even attempt to get one because in the past they are always sold out.  I made sure this was brought up in front of the kids because I wanted them to know I wanted to go.  Anyway, I was there until about 11:00PM and then she said she was tired and needed to get to bed.  She walked me out to the car and gave me one of those "side hugs" that are really ridiculous but I hugged her and kissed her forehead.  I left and went home.  We haven't talked since.  It seems to me that she is irritated that she can't "scare" me into giving in to her demands (whatever they may be at the time) and therefore has to not talk to me for a couple of days to get over her anger about it.  I love her very much, but when she gets in one of these moods, I don't even want to be around her. 
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« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2015, 11:37:03 AM »

So yesterday I texted my wife while giving me the ST a picture that said, "You are loved."  I didn't expect anything back, but was trying to be sweet.  my wife texted me this morning about softball and should have seen it was a setup, but I didn't.  No big deal because I cut off communication when I did see it.  She said she would like to do the same thing with our team that was in the picture she sent me.  I said, "I like it and that it was cool.  I asked her if she was making something in particular for our team party tomorrow and she said, "Probably.  I need to get my hope chest from you tomorrow after the party.  I have a lot to do before I leave town and that is the only night I have available."  I should have seen this coming, but I responded, "If you could give me till Wednesday that would be great, and also I would like my laptop back."  She responded, "You didn't get that in the divorce."  I cut off communication immediately after that.  I refuse to fight with her.  I still don't think there was a court date.   i so bad want to be an ass but I just won't stoop to that level.  Whatever she's upset about, I refuse to be a whipping post.  It still amazes me that they can't help but screw things up when things are going well.  I know she is concerned about moving her dad down here next week (would be surprised to see it actually happen) and that is going to disrupt her whole life and it isn't going to end well.  It is going to end like it did with her mom and who will she come to when it blows up?  Yep... .Me... .Because she has no one else.  
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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2015, 11:43:05 AM »

So my wife went out of town last Friday to get her dad out of the nursing home he was in so she could move him down here.  I could tell she started to "pull away" from me before she left so had very little conversation with her from Thursday on.  She left Friday and I asked if she go to her halfway point ok and she said she did and thanks for asking.  I haven't talked to her since for several reasons.  One, I know she has a ton to do in a very short time and get back down here (with or without him).  Second, I'm not going to chase her.  I refuse to.  I'm always the one to text first and feel like I have to almost chase her at times to talk to her.  I won't to do that anymore. A r/s is a two way street.  I'm realizing how much healthier I am now than I used to be.  Another thing, I went and watched Star Wars with a friend (who happens to be a girl, but we are just friends and we took our sons).  It was nice to have someone I could go and not have to discuss the r/s with, who didn't expect anything of me and just wanted to do something fun.  She knows I am still married and knows that I want my marriage to work.  She was very supportive.  It was nice to not have someone tell me I need to "get rid of the b!tch".   Smiling (click to insert in post)  Anyway, Not having talked to my wife in almost 4 days has not bothered me hardly at all.  I do miss her a little, but curious to see how things shake out when she gets back with her dad.  She moved into the formal living room a night before she left town so she could mover her dad into her master bedroom "so he could be closer to the bathroom".  Anyway, just wanted to give the latest.  Thoughts?
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2015, 12:32:27 PM »

I think living in a different house right now is going to be a blessing.  Wife/father-in-law are probably going to have some big storms in the near future, living under the same roof.
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« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2015, 11:57:54 AM »

So, how was Christmas?
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« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2015, 09:36:04 PM »

So, how was Christmas?

Christmas was great!  Had a wonderful time with my kids.  I texted my wife Christmas Day (morning) to no response (maybe I shouldn't have?) and went on about my day.  I also texted her kids and our youngest daughter responded and we talked and told each other we loved each other.  My wife told me not to buy them gifts as she didn't have money to buy my kids gifts and I said, "OK."  I didn't buy any of them gifts and focused on my children.  I got my biological kids later in the day and they opened their gifts and took them to Denny's for dinner.  My son asked if we were going to see my wife and kids and I said no.  I haven't heard from my wife except in response to an email I sent out regarding softball to our team and she responded short and to the point about the agenda for the meeting we have on Tuesday.  It's ridiculous but I won't play along anymore.  I do miss her but tired of her ST for whatever reason she sees fit.  This time I truly believe she has backed herself into a corner where she can't spend time with me because her family would see the truth about me.  Also, I think she doesn't need me for anything right now either.  Oh well. Her loss.  Thoughts?
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2015, 01:04:49 AM »

So, how was Christmas?

Christmas was great!  Had a wonderful time with my kids.  I texted my wife Christmas Day (morning) to no response (maybe I shouldn't have?) and went on about my day.  I also texted her kids and our youngest daughter responded and we talked and told each other we loved each other.  My wife told me not to buy them gifts as she didn't have money to buy my kids gifts and I said, "OK."  I didn't buy any of them gifts and focused on my children.  I got my biological kids later in the day and they opened their gifts and took them to Denny's for dinner.  My son asked if we were going to see my wife and kids and I said no.  I haven't heard from my wife except in response to an email I sent out regarding softball to our team and she responded short and to the point about the agenda for the meeting we have on Tuesday.  It's ridiculous but I won't play along anymore.  I do miss her but tired of her ST for whatever reason she sees fit.  This time I truly believe she has backed herself into a corner where she can't spend time with me because her family would see the truth about me.  Also, I think she doesn't need me for anything right now either.  Oh well. Her loss.  Thoughts?

Another thing is we are at a stalemate where we aren't contacting each other for any reason other than softball at the moment. 
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« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2015, 02:30:51 PM »

I am not sure if you can do anything differently, but let me toss it out there anyway.  Why not pursue her?  Do you think it would be ineffective?  Would you find it humiliating?
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« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2015, 06:04:51 PM »

I am not sure if you can do anything differently, but let me toss it out there anyway.  Why not pursue her?  Do you think it would be ineffective?  Would you find it humiliating?

I'm not sure if I can do anything differently either, however, I did take some time to think about your question.  I'm not sure I can pursue anymore than I have been.  I feel like in a way it is humiliating, but also I feel it doesn't show strength.  She wants the control and in a lot of ways, I gave it to her.  I'm at a point where I want our relationship to be a two way street.  I've made all the concessions, all the effort.  I'm not mad about that, that was my choice.  But now I'm strong enough to say, "I would like to be pursued."  I want to hear, "I want to see you."  I'm done giving her all the power.  Am I making any sense?  Plus, she chose her dad over our relationship, and she needs to live that choice... .
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2015, 12:01:16 AM »

Please don't take this as criticism or me pushing you to pursue her more - I am just exploring this in my head as I write.  First off, I also have a "no pursue" rule for myself as well, but for me it is because of my insecurity of believing that I am an attractive spouse.  If I pursue, then I feel like I am begging, and I don't know that I could look myself in the mirror in the morning if I did that.

Anyway, enough about me.  Is there a way to pursue without giving up control?  What if it was something as simple as flowers?  You express your love, but don't request anything in return.  You take a strong step towards her, but then let her decide if she wants to take a step forward too.
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2015, 03:37:07 PM »

Please don't take this as criticism or me pushing you to pursue her more - I am just exploring this in my head as I write.  First off, I also have a "no pursue" rule for myself as well, but for me it is because of my insecurity of believing that I am an attractive spouse.  If I pursue, then I feel like I am begging, and I don't know that I could look myself in the mirror in the morning if I did that.

Anyway, enough about me.  Is there a way to pursue without giving up control?  What if it was something as simple as flowers?  You express your love, but don't request anything in return.  You take a strong step towards her, but then let her decide if she wants to take a step forward too.

I'm not taking it as criticism.  I appreciate your input.  I do feel like I am begging and don't want that anymore.  Yesterday, my wife and I were texting about some softball stuff (I'm the president of the board and she is the treasurer) and she emailed some information to my ex wife and CC'd me about a something that my ex owes ($38) even though it was already discussed multiple times.  I realized the only reason she sent it was to sign it with her maiden name" to humiliate me.  I didn't respond to it and later she got real nice with me almost like she felt guilty and we texted several times throughout the night.  We left the texting on great terms and this morning I texted her some new information to add to a document.  We texted back and forth a few times and then she said, "When can I get my stuff from you this week and I need the code to the laptop."  I didn't respond.  First of all, it's bait.  Second of all, she knows that laptop is mine and I pay for it out of my student loan and I will not give her the code.  When I didn't respond, she said, "You can't ignore this ML, you are acting like a petulant child!"  Like I'm really going to answer her now. Smiling (click to insert in post). Anyway, she's looking for a fight and I refuse to give it to her.  She must really be beside herself and miserable to try and pick fight with me.  Also, they really don't like it when they get a taste of their own medicine.  They can ignore, ignore, ignore, but when you refuse to respond due to them being nasty, they can't stand it.
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« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2015, 10:17:16 AM »

  ML, Glad you had a good Christmas with your bio kids.  I had a good one as well.    As the new year approaches, I have few questions for you.  Is there a timeline for you?  How long will you wait?  Note:  I think it wise to wait a while and see how FIL thing plays out.  I'm assuming he is moved down here and living in the house.  I would challenge you to examine your thinking around her "choosing" FIL over you.  Very likely you were not in her thought process.  You are doing great things and keeping the "temperature" of the r/s down.     

FF
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« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2015, 10:19:55 AM »

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288198.0

Hi ff, ML posted this continuation thread which may further clarify his situation.
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« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2015, 10:43:53 AM »

   Thanks sweetheart!  Hope you are well.    

FF
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« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2015, 11:30:53 AM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .
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