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Icthelight
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« on: November 07, 2015, 05:57:42 PM »

Hi,

I'm excited to officially be part of this community. I've visited bpdfamily many times, but today I decided to become official
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Grey Kitty
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Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2015, 08:33:15 PM »

Welcome!

Please tell us a bit more about your relationship, and what parts of it trouble you, or describe something specific you want to do better at.
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Icthelight
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 09:55:22 AM »

I have been married for over 20 years, have two teenage daughters and can say that I love my wife. My relationship with my wife for the most part has been erratic, full of conflict with lots of disagreements. However, she can be loving, caring and a great lover. We have good times as well, which is why I've been married so long.

Throughout our marriage, the central theme has always been, that our issues are my fault. I'm told that I don't do the things that I use to do when we were dating, I don't love her, so why did I marry her, I don't have her back with the girls, I don't find her sexy, I don't desire her, etc, etc. I'm an optimist, so I usually believe the glass is half full and that we can resolve whatever comes our way. We have tried counseling (multiple times), I have gone to counseling alone (because she said that I was the one with the issues) and I have read and tried many of the marriage help books and programs out there. Things sometimes get better, but for the most part, things go back to our tumultuous norm.

While discussing my frustrations with a close friend earlier this year, he said that my wife's behavior sounded narcissistic. That sounded extreme to me, but I looked it up anyway. Although I could see some similar traits, I didn't think that this is what she had. However, as I kept reading, the term BPD came up with a link to click on. I clicked on the link and, WOW. Pretty much the same reaction that many Nons have had when they hear about BPD for the first time.

I read as much as I could on BPD: I read "walking on eggshells," Marsha Linehan's BPD book on BPD and read many articles online and trolled around bpdfamily as well. I was encouraged that I finally had something I could zero in on, something I could focus on that would hopefully resolve most of our issues. Although, some of the suggestions worked, like validating, giving short answers, taking time outs etc., I still have a difficult time executing these tools effectively without her wearing me down. In learning about BPD, I also learned that I have issues that I need to work on (people pleaser, conflict avoider, etc.) and the way I have responded or reacted to her in the past (and present) have made things worse. So, I'm looking into getting a therapist so I can work on my issues and decided to join this group for additional support. Yes, I need help.

I'm tired of being blamed for virtually everything wrong in my wife's life. She tells me she's not attracted to me, that her gaining weight is my fault too. She said that she gained weight because that's the only way that she knew she would remain faithful to me. That this way, other guys would not find her attractive and she would not be tempted to be with them. This sounded like nonsense to me and pissed me off when she told me. Knowing now about BPD, it makes more sense to me. She blames me for not getting along with our girls because I haven't parented and set the record straight that they will not disrespect her. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

I need to say that I know I can do better in many areas of my life, and will continue to try to improve myself and my knowledge. But I have been resentful throughout our marriage because my wife rarely ever apologizes or admits that things are her fault. I guess I'm just worn down right now.

Lastly, those marathon arguments are killing me. I have tried the short answers, validating, etc. However, if she doesn't feel heard, which means repeating the same thing 100 times, she won't regulate again. She remains pissed off and isolated which drains me emotionally. Any advice on how to shorten the rages and these arguments without going around and around for hours and days?

Thanks for listening and any input you may have.
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Grey Kitty
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 10:16:38 AM »

My suggestion is start by working on the marathon arguments. (Especially if they interfere with your sleep, as happens with many members here)

The way I'd go about it is by enforcing a boundary against verbal abuse. I've never heard of an argument like this that doesn't go rapidly down the rabbit hole of verbally and emotionally abusing you.

Telling you exactly how you are intending to hurt her (which requires reading your mind), and telling you that things are your fault as she does are abuse plain and simple.

So what can you do?

You can't stop her from spewing abusive stuff.

You can enforce the boundary. This is an internal statement you believe and act on. Here's a good one:

"I won't be present for verbal abuse."

And here is how you enforce that: As soon as you notice that a conversation has turned into an argument and you are getting attacked, end that. Here are a series of (escalating) steps to take; keep going until you are no longer hearing the abuse.

0. Change the subject to something neutral or positive. ("That fish you cooked for lunch was delicious"

1. say "I will not be spoken to that way."

(Assuming she doesn't stop)

2. Walk out of the room

(If she follows you)

3. Walk out of the house.

(If she blocks your way out)

4. Get out your phone and inform her that preventing you from leaving is domestic violence and you will dial the police if she doesn't get out of your way. (BTW, this is true, although you should be cautious and prepare in advance for this step, as police often believe that domestic violence/abuse is always committed by men upon women, even though though it isn't true)

(If she follows you out of the house)

5. Get in your car and drive away

(If she gets in a vehicle and follows you)

6. Drive to a police station, and if needed, walk inside.

(If she starts blowing up your phone with calls/messages)

7. Turn your phone off or block her number. (at least for a while)

This is pretty much guaranteed to end the fight. I've got no idea how far she will go to keep engaged in the fight, but if you are consistent with this, she will eventually learn that chasing you to get in a fight doesn't work and stop trying so hard. You probably won't need the more extreme steps often. (I don't think I ever had to do anything beyond walking outside personally.)

So what next when it ends? Well, first, give her some time to find a better way to cope with her emotions, and come down from her dysregulation. It takes a minimum of 15-20 minutes for the adrenalin reaction to wear off, so be sure to allow that long, for both her and for you.

I generally came back as soon as I could, but was willing to go away again (and for a bit longer this time) if I returned to find the fight picked up immediately.

You say you've been lurking around here for a while--have you read the lessons on circular arguments and boundaries? Those would both be helpful to you.
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Wrongturn1
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Posts: 591



« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 10:35:55 AM »

Lastly, those marathon arguments are killing me. I have tried the short answers, validating, etc. However, if she doesn't feel heard, which means repeating the same thing 100 times, she won't regulate again. She remains pissed off and isolated which drains me emotionally. Any advice on how to shorten the rages and these arguments without going around and around for hours and days?

Welcome, Icthelight!  Sounds like we have a lot in common, and I commend you for surviving 20 years of marriage to someone with BPD.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

About the marathon arguments, the thing to remember is that you have the power to choose to remain in the argument or to disengage or walk away from the argument entirely.  It could play out something like this:

Her: "I saw you oogling that waitress at dinner last night, you ass!"

You: "From the volume of your voice, it seems like you are feeling very angry right now.  I care about your feelings, and you and our marriage are very important to me.  I could see how you would feel angry if you felt like I was oogling a waitress - that would be an entirely normal way to feel in that situation.  I would feel upset if I felt like you were oogling a waiter.  At the same time, I want to make it clear that I was not oogling a waitress last night; our relationship is far too important to me; and I only have eyes for you." [validating response loosely phrased in SET format]

Her: "But I was watching your eyes, and I know you were oogling her... .just like you were oogling that librarian last year; and oogling that woman in the church choir 5 years ago; and oogling the babysitter 10 years ago."

You: "I have said everything I need to say on this topic, and revisiting it will not help our marriage, so I will not participate in further discussions about

this."

Her: Same thing she just said above.

You: "I made myself clear before.  I'm going to take a walk and will return when things are calmer.  I'll be back in an hour.  Loveya, bye for now."

This feels scary as hell the first time you do it.  But it really does get results.  Try it next time and enjoy the results.  Then you be sure to be consistent about it because she will not like the new dynamic and will try to manipulate you back into submission.  
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Wrongturn1
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 10:46:07 AM »

Looks like Grey Kitty posted while I was writing my response.  I prefer his "I won't be spoken to that way" response to my longer, SET-style response.  GK's script is much easier to remember under duress and so is therefore probably a better approach.
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Icthelight
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 78


« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 01:23:03 PM »

have you read the lessons on circular arguments and boundaries? Those would both be helpful to you.

I have not read the lessons on circular arguments and boundaries. I will search the site and read them.

I appreciate the feedback and comments. I have to remember to not get emotionally engaged and to keep it simple. Thank you again.
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Grey Kitty
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 05:02:05 PM »

The S.E.T. format is designed to communicate something that the pwBPD really does need to know... .in a format that they can be receptive to hearing it. It is a great tool when that is what you need to do.

Clean and consistent boundary enforcement is the best tool for stopping abuse.

I find that the first thing to do in repairing this kind of relationship is to stop the abuse.

The other thing to work on immediately is learning how you do and say things that are invalidating, and stopping. When possible. 95% of the invalidating things I used to say were unnecessary. Some things are invalidating and do need to be said. The huge gain is to notice when you do it on autopilot and change that.

Once you do that, you have some breathing room for more subtle things like S.E.T. and being more validating.

Edit: Here are links to the articles I was mentioning earlier.

TOOLS: How to stop a circular argument

It's happening again. The argument that just doesn't make sense  ? It can go on for hours, with them blaming you, criticizing you, attacking you, cornering you, lecturing you - essentially going on and on and on about how wrong/bad/cold/thoughtless/stupid you are. Being on the receiving end of one of these destroys your self esteem and inflicts major damage on the relationship. How do you stop them? read on

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0


BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

We all come to a relationship with core values or independent values.  We also have values that we are prepared to blend with the other person in a relationship - these become inter-dependent values. There are three types of boundaries: Physical boundaries; Mental boundaries; Emotional boundaries.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

Examples of boundaries

This thread is about "examples" of our values, our boundaries and how to defend our boundaries.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368

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Icthelight
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 78


« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 10:40:47 AM »

TOOLS: How to stop a circular argument

This thread is really, really helpful. I read through it last night and actually used JADE last night. I would never think to use JADE before because my experience with my wife is that if she doesn't talk, and talk, and talk about it until she feels heard, her anger and the issue don't go away. So, I just sit there and take it so that we can move on.

Last night, I was not allowing her to engage or trigger me, so she ended up calling me an A$$. At that point, I said I was taking a time out because I was not going to allow her to verbally abuse me. She seemed surprised and as I was walking away, she said that I was treating her like an A$$. I saw her a few times after that, and she was raging. We'll see how it goes today when I get home.

I'm also happy to report that I found a psychologist who I will be seeing this afternoon.

I appreciate the feedback and the support.
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Grey Kitty
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 07:47:10 PM »

How are you doing now? There is a lot to learn and work on!

And how did your psychologist appointment go?
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Icthelight
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 78


« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2015, 09:25:40 AM »

How are you doing now? There is a lot to learn and work on!

And how did your psychologist appointment go?

I am doing well, thank you for following up with me.

I saw the psychologist on Tuesday and I am feeling hopeful. I will start out seeing him on a weekly basis and will take it from there. I have also been on bpdfamily A LOT, reading as much as I can. Emerging myself with all of this information and others' stories keeps the tools and strategies fresh and alive in my head. I've been using JADE a lot more and I have diverted some arguments.

I have to share that my wife complained to me for walking away the other night while we were "discussing something." I told her that I walked away because I was not going to allow her to verbally abuse me anymore. Well, that triggered a rage in her. She raised her voice and scolded me for saying that SHE was abusing me, that I am the one who has abused her ever since we got married. That she's the one that's been abused and how dare I tell her that. She wanted to make it perfectly clear that when she calls me an ass or jerk, it's because I'm being mean to her. Normally, I would just nod and stay quiet or blow her off but yesterday I calmly told her, "then just say that I'm being mean to you, I will not stay to hear you insult me." I think I caught her off guard because she just said, OK! She tried to engage with a few other things, but I just responded with really short answers, not explaining or justifying like I usually do and I also validated her. The conversation went a lot better than I thought it would.

Lots to learn still, but thankful for this forum.
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Grey Kitty
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2015, 10:39:53 AM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Good work--realizing that an attempt to call YOU abusive is just another part or wrinkle on the abuse directed at you, and not staying around to participate in it.

And as a note about this kind of thing... .when I experienced that sort of thing, I don't believe my wife was aware of what she was doing.

Yes, what she was saying had the exact effect of being abusive and controlling of me. That it had that effect was not a coincidence or an accident.

However, when she was saying that *I* was being abusive as part of her efforts to abuse/control me, I don't think she was lying. I think she honestly believed that it was true, because she was truly feeling hurt--that was clearly very real--and she jumped to the conclusion that since she was feeling hurt, *I* was trying to hurt her... .not true, but she (at the time) believed it.

Some people consciously try to manipulate/abuse their partner. Others are completely unaware that they are doing it.

I don't know which is better or worse... .and don't think it matters much. The best response to that kind of abuse is the same either way, and you are doing a lot better!
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