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Author Topic: Circular Arguments: "I am your mate" | Topic 3  (Read 761 times)
unicorn2014
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« on: November 10, 2015, 10:38:21 AM »

Grey kitty, I'm a Christian. I don't think it's proper for a married man to stay with a single woman. I would love it if he would stay in a hotel when he came to see me. He did the first time. I would love to have a normal relationship with him where he had his own apartment and we went out and did stuff. I enjoy going out with him. He lives 2000 miles away.

---

He says he treats me like a husband treats his wife. That's what he said when I told him treats me at times like a child treats their comfort object .

---

I find texting with him very problematic and I now call him in response to texts. I FaceTime him because he lives 2000 miles away and I'm not going to invite him to stay with me again until he gets divorced.


Mod Note: This post was split from Circular Arguments: "I am your mate" | Topic 2
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 01:18:04 PM »

Disclaimer: I don't consider myself Christian, and I've heard a lot of different people who say they are express different things about what that means. I want you to know where I'm coming from when I ask you difficult questions--I'm not trying to trap you or anything--I'm trying to understand your values, and what living up to your values means to you.

Grey kitty, I'm a Christian. I don't think it's proper for a married man to stay with a single woman. I would love it if he would stay in a hotel when he came to see me. He did the first time. I would love to have a normal relationship with him where he had his own apartment and we went out and did stuff. I enjoy going out with him.

So it isn't proper for a married man to stay with a single woman (i.e. you).

You won't let him do that again.

Yet you say you would love for a married man to fly out to visit his romantic partner (you) if he does stay in a hotel when he does it.

There is a difference, yes, but from a moral point of view, I'm kinda confused on why it matters. (But as I said, I want to understand YOUR values, not promote mine here)

Is it proper for a married man to have a romantic LDR with a single woman?

Is it proper for a married man to be engaged to a single woman?

Is it proper for a married man to help a single woman's daughter with homework or other parenting duties?

I know these are tough questions.
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 01:34:42 PM »

The answer is of course no to all of those, however it's a very strong no when it comes to staying in my apartment.

-

If we put the Christian label aside, his behavior is unethical. Now granted he hasn't lived with his wife for 3+ years and he doesn't financially support her.

-

What I'm saying is if I didn't have Christian training as an adult I wouldn't care. My dad is not a religious man and he doesn't care. My mom on the other hand was raised Catholic and she does care.

-

At this point it's more about his actions not matching his words. Until September I was functioning under the belief he had filed for divorce. I only mention my religion because of the conflict it causes me. I have actually temporarily stopped going to church, for other reasons, however my relationship was not making it easy for me.

-

So the bottom line I've learned in September is with a pwBPD its actions not words. His wife did move out, he did sell the house, he did close the business. Those are actions.

-

Also I don't think of him as a romantic partner first , I think of him as a coparent first  since my child's other parent refuses to coparent .

"Is it proper for a married man to help a single woman's daughter with homework or other parenting duties?

"

He's being generous and charitable to me. I have no family support. Would it be better for me to return to being a parent without a partner? I did that for 7 years.
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 02:17:58 PM »

Also I don't think of him as a romantic partner first , I think of him as a coparent first

You are entitled to put them in whatever order you wish... .but if he gave you an engagement ring and you call him your fiance, you have more than acknowledged it is a romantic relationship.

Be honest with yourself about that.

As for whether you should accept him as a generous and charitable coparent or go back to being a single parent? That is your choice, not mine.

However you do have to accept him for all he is, not just the parts you want.

He is also a romantic partner who is being deceptive and dragging his feet about divorcing his wife, and has taken to blaming you for this.
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 02:33:26 PM »

Grey kitty, I call him my partner.

-

I hear what you are saying about accepting him for who he is.

-

I don't want to go back to being a parent without a partner. One of my former therapists feels my former husband wasn't a partner when we were married, so this is the first time I've had a partner. It's really helpful to have a partner at this point with a daughter in high school.

---

Is the blame a BPD behavior?
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 02:43:56 PM »

The answer is of course no to all of those, however it's a very strong no when it comes to staying in my apartment.

If your answer to Grey Kitty's questions is no, then help me (and others) understand your choice to engage in those behaviors.

FF
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 02:52:50 PM »

Formflier, it is not my fault my partner did not tell me he was married, it is not my fault my partner's divorce was not filed. I am not responsible for those things. I am not conducting myself improperly. His behavior is not a reflection on me. In terms of parenting, he is my partner. I never had a partner before I met him.

-

I think I need to answer Pallas question about what it means to be and act like a mate.
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 03:13:12 PM »

Formflier, it is not my fault my partner did not tell me he was married, it is not my fault my partner's divorce was not filed. I am not responsible for those things. 

No you are not... .you are absolutely not responsible for any of his decisions or behaviors.

You are only responsible for your choices... .and your behaviors. 

So again... .looking at the choices you have made... .(not him)... .I'm seeing a disconnect between stated values in the answers to GK's question... .and the choices you have made.  I don't want to understand his choices... .I want to understand yours. 

No judgement here... .these are tough questions.  I've enjoyed getting to know you... .your answers to each of those questions and how you reconcile that with your choices will not affect how I think of you one bit. 

You are safe here.

FF



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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 03:43:15 PM »

Formflier, I mentioned my Christian conversion to shed light on the fact I was not raised with those values. I think I need to stay away from the word Christian and focus on the word ethical. As I'm not currently attending church for other reasons it is not currently affecting my decisions .

-----

I think palla had a really good question about the noun and verb of mate. I flagged that reply in my email and will print it out and study it. I did not pick it up when my pwBPD said I am your mate, I brought it here. I did not get in an argument about it. I would say that's a success.

---

I did add the lessons about fear of intimacy , poor executive control, and SET to my reading list. I've read them before, I'll read them again.

---

I did point out my partner did propose to me before he met me, was emotionally intimate from the start, and physically intimate as soon as we met. I did ask how that ties into fear of intimacy. Can you please explain that to me?

---

In terms of poor executive control, does that mean I can never use metaphorical language with my pwBPD to describe how I feel? Like I can't say "I feel like sometimes you treat me like a stuffed animal you're dragging down the hall way by its foot." ?

He was really insulted by that and I wasn't intending it as an insult. I actually was saying it out of compassion . I actually wasn't mad at him at all. He said he was disgusted by that and even sent me an email about objectification asking me if that's what I meant. It wasn't. I never replied to the email.
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 06:29:20 PM »

Formflier, it is not my fault my partner did not tell me he was married, it is not my fault my partner's divorce was not filed. I am not responsible for those things. I am not conducting myself improperly. His behavior is not a reflection on me.

There are two different things going on here, unicorn.

1. He deceived you about his marital status early on, and you chose to get into a relationship with him based on false information. That is all on him; you aren't responsible.

2. You found out that the guy you are engaged to is still married, and not moving forward with his divorce later. At that time, you chose to continue with the relationship.

That is your choice, and you are responsible for it--you are choosing to stay in a relationship with a married man. (I'm sure you know stories of women who dumped their guy as soon as they discovered he was married. Either because they didn't want to be in a r/s with a married guy or they didn't want to be in a r/s with a guy who lied to them.)

This is the staying board--I'm not trying to talk you into ending your relationship. However I am concerned that you are stating both that the relationship is against your values, and that you aren't responsible for it at the same time.

Truly, the choice is up to you, and I have to acknowledge that it is a terribly hard choice to make in a really difficult situation, and it is further complicated by the way he is helping you with your daughter.
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 08:05:36 PM »

That is your choice, and you are responsible for it--you are choosing to stay in a relationship with a married man. (I'm sure you know stories of women who dumped their guy as soon as they discovered he was married. Either because they didn't want to be in a r/s with a married guy or they didn't want to be in a r/s with a guy who lied to them.)

Yes a married man who has not lived with his wife in over 3 years and is not financially supporting his wife. It should be easy for him to get a divorce.

Excerpt
This is the staying board--I'm not trying to talk you into ending your relationship. However I am concerned that you are stating both that the relationship is against your values, and that you aren't responsible for it at the same time.

It is against my values to be in a relationship with a married man, so I guess I should  say I am responsible for being  in a relationship with a married man who's not living with or supporting his wife. I think the boundaries workshop talked about independent and interdependent values. Perhaps I should review that.

Excerpt
Truly, the choice is up to you, and I have to acknowledge that it is a terribly hard choice to make in a really difficult situation, and it is further complicated by the way he is helping you with your daughter.

Yes it is and I wonder if those women who chose to leave their married or deceiving men had a teen daughter and no family support. At this point I am still choosing to stay.
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 08:25:09 PM »

I may have missed it, but did he express anything like empathy for your daughter's poison oak?

With all of the players here, it seems to me to have gone from triangles to octagons (that's not a clinical term, don't quote me  

There are too many details and too many players here. Sure, a LDR has its own stresses, but to me, the issue here is communication style. Who you are vs. who he is, and who each of you wants the other to be.

Say he produces the papers tomorrow, so that stress is off the table, and it's a huge one. Fast forward, then, to whatever time period until he moves out. His communication style (attack, or go waifish) is being telegraphed now. Things will happen, more stresses will come. It's life. What's your vision for the future, say, two years from now? Can you take an inventory of where you are versus where you want to be, and how you will get there, keeping in mind that your fiancee is an independent entity, free to do whatever he ultimately wants to (as are we all)?
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 08:50:58 PM »

I may have missed it, but did he express anything like empathy for your daughter's poison oak?

Absolutely, lots of empathy.

(Turkish, I wanted to comment on your kid "dates" thread but  my ex is bipolar and a substance abuser so I wasn't sure it was appropriate. If that's ok with you, then I will comment, as I definitely have something to say about that. )




Excerpt
Say he produces the papers tomorrow, so that stress is off the table, and it's a huge one. Fast forward, then, to whatever time period until he moves out. His communication style (attack, or go waifish) is being telegraphed now. Things will happen, more stresses will come. It's life. What's your vision for the future, say, two years from now? Can you take an inventory of where you are versus where you want to be, and how you will get there, keeping in mind that your fiancee is an independent entity, free to do whatever he ultimately wants to (as are we all)?

Can you say more about that go waifish style? We believe his mom might have BPD traits too, so he definitely might have learned that from her. Sometimes I do experience him as being really feminine, which is kind of interesting because he can be really masculine and aggressive too. But that comment I made about feeling like he was treating me like a stuffed animal he was dragging down the hall way? That definitely indicates his "waifish" characteristics. I'm actually planning on reading the book about borderline mothers when I'm done reading the book about borderline parents, speaking of that waifish quality.

I would love to build a sane, stable relationship with him in my county, absolutely. That is what I want.
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 08:57:29 PM »

I have been following your postings, not contributing because I am six degrees of separation from your situation (I am married to a man whose Ex is uNPD/BPD - my experience has been 10 years of DH recovering from PTSD).

So I'm just going to make the observation that what I don't hear in your description of this relationship is an enduring depth of intimacy or passion. It sounds as if it started similarly to many BPD romances - quickly, seductively, with a high level of "romance" and your partner presenting as he chose (dishonestly) to present. You describe your partnership with this man as quite comfortable and supportive in many ways. You sound hyper-focused on his parenting support.

What will you give up if you let this relationship go - emotionally, financially, spiritually? And what will it cost you? And do you have the individual fortitude to pick up what this man provided, should it not be there anymore?

Because what he has provided that you value says a great deal about what you needed in the first place, and perhaps where you can look to your own growth opportunities.
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 08:59:24 PM »

It is against my values to be in a relationship with a married man, so I guess I should  say I am responsible for being  in a relationship with a married man who's not living with or supporting his wife. I think the boundaries workshop talked about independent and interdependent values. Perhaps I should review that.

Your values are clear.

Your choices are clear.

Your values and your choices are in conflict with each other.

Until one of those things changes (your values or your choices), turmoil will continue.

FF

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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2015, 09:03:58 PM »

So I'm just going to make the observation that what I don't hear in your description of this relationship is an enduring depth of intimacy or passion. It sounds as if it started similarly to many BPD romances - quickly, seductively, with a high level of "romance" and your partner presenting as he chose (dishonestly) to present. You describe your partnership with this man as quite comfortable and supportive in many ways. You sound hyper-focused on his parenting support.

The reason you don't hear the passion is because I'm keeping a lid on it both for reasons of anonymity and for reasons of propriety. Its there but currently I'm keeping it under control because of the situation at hand, posting on a message board for people in a relationship with a person with BPD. Also the circumstances of my relationship happen to be shameful.

Excerpt
What will you give up if you let this relationship go - emotionally, financially, spiritually? And what will it cost you? And do you have the individual fortitude to pick up what this man provided, should it not be there anymore?

I was single for 7 years before I met him, and I can be single again. Its not about fortitude.

I am the adult child of a narcissist father.

My own child's father is a bipolar substance abuser.

Despite my partner's flaws, he is a good father figure for my daughter. I'm not willing to give that up at this point.

Can you imagine what it would be like not to be able to rely on your own father to be a good grandfather figure for your daughter?

Excerpt
Because what he has provided that you value says a great deal about what you needed in the first place, and perhaps where you can look to your own growth opportunities.

I hear what you are saying, however if we were meant to reproduce asexually I wouldn't need emotional and financial support from a male of the species to raise a teen.
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 09:04:39 PM »

It is against my values to be in a relationship with a married man, so I guess I should  say I am responsible for being  in a relationship with a married man who's not living with or supporting his wife. I think the boundaries workshop talked about independent and interdependent values. Perhaps I should review that.

Your values are clear.

Your choices are clear.

Your values and your choices are in conflict with each other.

Until one of those things changes (your values or your choices), turmoil will continue.

FF

I hear you and I think I need to reread the values section of the boundaries lesson about independent and interdependent values.
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 09:15:30 PM »

The waif feels the need to be rescued.

In leafing through my copy of UTBM, maybe there are more hermit characteristics:

- Evokes guilt and axiety in others

- Uses alcohol to self-soothe "The absence of the borderline's partner trigger's the need for self-soothing."

- Fears rejection more than abandonment

- is possesive and over-controlling

As for kid dates, I'd appreciate your perspective  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 09:21:50 PM »

So I'm just going to make the observation that what I don't hear in your description of this relationship is an enduring depth of intimacy or passion. It sounds as if it started similarly to many BPD romances - quickly, seductively, with a high level of "romance" and your partner presenting as he chose (dishonestly) to present. You describe your partnership with this man as quite comfortable and supportive in many ways. You sound hyper-focused on his parenting support.

The reason you don't hear the passion is because I'm keeping a lid on it both for reasons of anonymity and for reasons of propriety. Its there but currently I'm keeping it under control because of the situation at hand, posting on a message board for people in a relationship with a person with BPD. Also the circumstances of my relationship happen to be shameful.

Excerpt
What will you give up if you let this relationship go - emotionally, financially, spiritually? And what will it cost you? And do you have the individual fortitude to pick up what this man provided, should it not be there anymore?

I was single for 7 years before I met him, and I can be single again. Its not about fortitude.

I am the adult child of a narcissist father.

My own child's father is a bipolar substance abuser.

Despite my partner's flaws, he is a good father figure for my daughter. I'm not willing to give that up at this point.

Can you imagine what it would be like not to be able to rely on your own father to be a good grandfather figure for your daughter?

Excerpt
Because what he has provided that you value says a great deal about what you needed in the first place, and perhaps where you can look to your own growth opportunities.

I hear what you are saying, however if we were meant to reproduce asexually I wouldn't need emotional and financial support from a male of the species to raise a teen.

Having been a single parent for  18 years between divorce and remarriage, I hear you.

The posting about values from Ff is  most relevant here... .we must clarify our values to move forward. Values drive action.

One other question, since you often return to your need for - or lack of -support from others in your family/life... .

In what ways do you feel inadequate - or do you feel inadequate -  to the demands of your current life, and to whom do you look/seek for relief?  
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 09:47:40 PM »

In what ways do you feel inadequate - or do you feel inadequate -  to the demands of your current life, and to whom do you look/seek for relief? 

I don't feel inadequate, that's not what I'm saying either. It is definitely easier to be a parent with a partner as opposed to a parent without a partner. I prefer to have a partner.
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2015, 10:00:14 PM »

How do you differentiate between "partner" and "mate"?
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2015, 10:25:25 PM »

The waif feels the need to be rescued.

In leafing through my copy of UTBM, maybe there are more hermit characteristics:

- Evokes guilt and axiety in others

- Uses alcohol to self-soothe "The absence of the borderline's partner trigger's the need for self-soothing."

- Fears rejection more than abandonment

- is possesive and over-controlling

As for kid dates, I'd appreciate your perspective  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thanks Turkish, I definitely need to check that book out next.

I will post on your thread later Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2015, 08:01:40 AM »

The posting about values from Ff is  most relevant here... .we must clarify our values to move forward. Values drive action.

I don't feel inadequate, that's not what I'm saying either. It is definitely easier to be a parent with a partner as opposed to a parent without a partner. I prefer to have a partner.

Unicorn2014,

I'm not detecting any judgement from people in their posts... .and I want to stress that I am not judging your answers either.   

The pursuit of a clear answer about values and choices is because when values and choices don't line up there will be turmoil

I doubt that will be found in a lesson... .I think it is more of a life lesson kinda thing.


I suspect that as many different people are pointing out a disconnect in your choices and values, there would be as many different value choices as far as what is ok for them to do with a married person.   So it has nothing to do with us being happy with your choice, it has to do with you being happy with your choice

Unicorn's value:  It is not proper for Unicorn to be in a relationship (engaged) with a married man.  (sure it has been said slightly different here and there... .but this is the value).    If I have it wrong... .please correct. 

Your choice (not his):  Unicorn has chosen to say engaged (in a r/s) with a married man and her strategy is to "nag" (her words) him about getting the divorce filed and proving that to her.  Unicorn has made a decision that changing the marital status of the r/s is left up to a person with BPD traits.  (if I have it wrong... please correct)

Result:  Unicorns fiancee seems to be doing everything and anything but filing for divorce.  Talk of divorce seems to devolve into conflict quickly.  (if I have it wrong... please correct)


Options:  (I'm not recommending either one just trying to present things that unicorn can choose and control)

1.  Unicorn changes her values so that it is ok for her to be in a r/s with a married man.  Value changes can be a long process, but I suspect that if this happen that conflict in the r/s would go down considerably.

2.  Unicorn changes her choices about the relationship and presents a clear choice to her fiancee.  Initially I suspect conflict will go up, but eventually fiancee will make a choice and long term conflict should go down. 

 

This is a messy situation and I'm not suggesting that any choice will be easy.  The big choices rarely are.

FF


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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2015, 08:14:22 AM »

 

Unicorn,

You don't have to change the status quo.  You are not a bad person if you let the status quo continue.  We'll still be here to support you in your goal to stay with your pwBPD.

I would hope if a choice is made to leave the status quo is made that there is a clear realization that you have made a choice and are responsible for the outcome.

To me, you have an immense amount of power over the turmoil in your life that you are giving away (letting others make choices) to a person that displays traits of BPD.  I've said it before... .and I'll say it again.  Letting a pwBPD traits make major life decisions FOR YOU is rarely a good idea.

FF
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 10:01:13 AM »

1.  Unicorn changes her values so that it is ok for her to be in a r/s with a married man.

$.02 on this option here, as I think it is a valid option, with a caution about how it is worded.

I think when you compromise your values based on your situation or change your values due to this kind of conflict, it is a recipe for disaster and later regrets.

However, if you allow ourselves to sit with the conflict, and all the emotions around it,and really think about your values, the healthy version of this is that you may find that one value of yours (not being involved with somebody who is married) is up against another value of yours (providing your daughter with stability and a father figure)... .or something else.

If you look at a choice as simply do I live up to one value or not, it is simple and clear, even if it may be hard to live up to.

When you find that several of your values are in conflict over one situation/choice, it is much tougher, and there isn't really one "right" answer. (Simple example: If a woman asks me ":)oes my butt look big in this dress?" (and it does in this hypothetical situation) I'm presented with two conflicting values--The value of being kind, and the value of being truthful.)

These cases where you have to weigh several of your deeply held values against each other are really challenging.
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2015, 05:51:04 PM »

1.  Unicorn changes her values so that it is ok for her to be in a r/s with a married man.  Value changes can be a long process, but I suspect that if this happen that conflict in the r/s would go down considerably.

This seems to be the better option, as I'm in a long term committed r/s with a man who lives in another time zone who is still legally married but physically separated from his wife.

Excerpt
2.  Unicorn changes her choices about the relationship and presents a clear choice to her fiancee.  Initially I suspect conflict will go up, but eventually fiancee will make a choice and long term conflict should go down. 

Yes that happened yesterday and now he doesn't have space on his phone to take a picture of the escrow papers. I'm actually astounded at the amount of excuses he comes up with. Being on this board has allowed me to express dismay at his endless excuses. I told him I don't want to hear about the divorce until he is able to show me escrow papers. I try not to think about it.
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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2015, 05:53:35 PM »

However, if you allow ourselves to sit with the conflict, and all the emotions around it,and really think about your values, the healthy version of this is that you may find that one value of yours (not being involved with somebody who is married) is up against another value of yours (providing your daughter with stability and a father figure)... .or something else.

If you look at a choice as simply do I live up to one value or not, it is simple and clear, even if it may be hard to live up to.

These cases where you have to weigh several of your deeply held values against each other are really challenging.

Thank you grey kitty, that's very clear.

One of my values is conflict with another one, and since he is not living with his wife or financially supporting her, I can be flexible on that value as he is actively helping my daughter and I.

I really appreciate you delineating things like this.

I would not choose to be in this situation but since this is the situation I have found myself to be in I will make it work.

Thank you
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2015, 07:39:42 PM »

Let me offer you a possibility for you regarding how you deal with his marriage... .one that might work better for you than what you have been doing.

First, accept that you will stay in a relationship with him, and have him as an involved coparent with your daughter... .even though he is married and being glacially slow at the divorce. (This seems to match what you are doing and feel comfortable with)

Second, you have been calling him your fiance, and he gave you a ring. I'm assuming you wear the ring.

Obviously you cannot get married to him while he's married to somebody else. And there is a natural conclusion you can draw from that. Since you cannot be married to him, you aren't very engaged either.

So tell him that until you see his divorce as complete, your engagement is officially on ice, and inactive. You won't be wearing the ring, and starting now, will call him your boyfriend, since fiance doesn't apply.

And as his girlfriend, you have officially quit the job of nagging him to get his divorce or even talking about it. You don't care to hear any more until it is complete, and you can resume the engagement with him.

How does this feel to you?
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 08:01:17 PM »

Grey kitty, I accept for the part where I have to tell him I'm not wearing the ring. He will totally dysregulate and punish me, even though he says he doesn't punish me.

I  do call him my partner more often then my fiancé these days.

How about the next time he calls me his fiancée or tells me he intends to marry me I bring it up then?

Today he reminded me he wanted to get me a sapphire for my wedding ring.

I don't always wear my ring outside but I often wear it on FaceTime. He will notice if I don't have it on. This will not be easy.
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 08:12:32 PM »

  He will totally dysregulate and punish me, even though he says he doesn't punish me.

Let him... .

He can punish all he wants.

You can chose to turn off the phone, facetime... .or other communication device.

He can go on punishing away until he tires of it... .and since you didn't participate you come out the other side feeling ok.

FF
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