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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
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Author Topic: Circular Arguments: "I am your mate" | Topic 3  (Read 760 times)
unicorn2014
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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 08:20:10 PM »

Form flier I'm actually afraid to take this stance with him. One time I was wearing a ring other then my engagement ring and he asked about it.

The subject of the ring is a difficult one as I actually like my ring. It is one I picked out. It is not a traditional engagement ring, it's very unique. It was custom made.

Also I should mention he wears a ring to show he's engaged to me, and he did not wear a ring when he was living with his wife. He seems to take comfort in his ring, telling me he likes to flash it when women hit on him. He says very uncomfortable with attention from women.
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 08:22:46 PM »

Form flier I'm actually afraid to take this stance with him. 

FOG

Fear

Obligation

Guilt

If you find yourself making decisions because of one of those words... .Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

FF
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 08:27:28 PM »

Form flier how am I supposed to feel about an action I know will dysregulate him? I find his dysregulations scary.
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 08:34:27 PM »

Form flier how am I supposed to feel about an action I know will dysregulate him? I find his dysregulations scary.

If that action is healthy for you... .if that action is according to your values... .then feel good about taking that action for you.

You can certainly empathize with your partner (or fiance's) pain... .

If the dysreglations are scary... .then don't participate in them.  (that means hang up, turn off factime, don't read email)

Listen,  I think it was Waverider description of a bad storm that helped me put a dysregulation in the right context.

Bad storms can be scary... .nothing wrong with that.  They also "blow through"... and then they are over.  Sometimes those storms leave damage.

Here is the thing... .if you were outside and a storm came along... .what would you do?  Hopefully the answer is go inside.

That is the same attitude you take to dysregulations.  If one comes along... realize that yes it is scary... .and realize that yes it will blow through and then be over. 

In the meantime... .to the smart thing for you and "go inside" (enforce a boundary against participating in dysregulations). 

FF
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 08:50:29 PM »

Grey kitty, I accept for the part where I have to tell him I'm not wearing the ring. He will totally dysregulate and punish me, even though he says he doesn't punish me.

I  do call him my partner more often then my fiancé these days.

How about the next time he calls me his fiancée or tells me he intends to marry me I bring it up then?

Today he reminded me he wanted to get me a sapphire for my wedding ring.

I don't always wear my ring outside but I often wear it on FaceTime. He will notice if I don't have it on. This will not be easy.

First off, I'm NOT telling you what to do. My first words were "Let me offer you a possibility" not "You need to do this". That was because I hoped you would think about it, and how it fits your values--not because I thought you should do it.

You sound like you are afraid of disappointing me by not being able to do what I suggest.

I can reassure you that I will be supportive and respectful of your choices, whatever they are.    It is OK to be scared.

You also sound very afraid of what your partner will do.

I can't reassure you about what he will do, but I would like to ask you about it.

You said you were scared of his dysregulations. What does he do when he is dysregulated? Can you tell me more of what you are scared of? Really think about it and get specific.

I'm not asking to scare you... .I'm asking because I noticed when I looked closely at what I was afraid my wife would do... .I noticed a few things about all the stuff I was afraid of: 1. She had already done those things to me before, generally many times, 2. I had survived them all, and probably could take it one more time if I needed to, and 3. When I was letting my fear grab hold of me and drive my thinking, I did things that I was much less happy about than when I let go of the fear.

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unicorn2014
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2015, 11:35:35 PM »



You said you were scared of his dysregulations. What does he do when he is dysregulated? Can you tell me more of what you are scared of? Really think about it and get specific.

He gets nasty and unpleasant.

However there is also the fact that I've gotten attached to my ring.

Then there's a reason I wanted a ring in the first place : I used to feel ashamed to be a divorced mother. I used to be self conscious about not wearing a ring to school events or out in the community as a mother. When I first got the ring it was a solution to a problem.
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Turkish
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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2015, 12:06:39 AM »

So the ring was a cover for your shame, a validation object, perhaps.

How do you feel about it now?
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2015, 12:48:46 AM »

So the ring was a cover for your shame, a validation object, perhaps.

How do you feel about it now?

I still value it. It was a ring I picked out independently of him and then was surprised to find out he was looking at the same one, a ring that got admired at church, a ring people still check to see if I'm wearing.

---

It wasn't so much validating as it was a cover for my shame as when I moved to my current city I was still married, and wasn't planning on divorcing. I didn't start out as a single mother. Incidentally I know some divorced men who wear wedding rings to stay out of trouble.

---

Today I no longer have the same shame for being a divorced mother as my ex husband is still actively using drugs with no sign of ever changing. Today I think it would be much more shameful to be married to an active drug user as opposed to be a divorced mother.

---

I could never afford a ring like this for myself, if I could perhaps I would buy myself a ring.
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2015, 12:52:54 AM »

Form flier how am I supposed to feel about an action I know will dysregulate him? I find his dysregulations scary.

If that action is healthy for you... .if that action is according to your values... .then feel good about taking that action for you.

I have to think about this one. Is this action healthy for me? Would it be healthy to take off my ring and remain in the relationship?

I used to have a philosophy that after I was married there was no going back to having a "boyfriend". To me having a "boyfriend" was like college, and I already had a husband.

My pwBPD does function as a partner when it comes to both raising my teen and supporting me take care of my own mental health.

I was able to tell him today that I do not want to talk about his divorce until I see his escrow papers. That felt good to me. He did mention Thanksgiving to me and I was also able to tell him I do not want to talk about it front of my daughter.

So I suppose I could say today was a good day.
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2015, 02:15:17 AM »

Turkish I should add my ring is a very complicated object  for me. I did pick it out and it was custom made for me so it's definitely become a part of me. After reading Lynne forests latest email on victim vocabulary regarding resentment being feeling responsible for others it made me want to take it off again, which I do on a regular basis and put it away in a safe place. I do honor what it represents . It is a symbol of what I want in a relationship .I guess you could say I am undecided about my ring. I'm definitely resentful that it was given to me while the giver is still married to someone else, that feels internally shameful.

---

I truly want things to be simple, but as you can see from my childhood and adolescence things are even more complicated than the issues I post about on the staying board.

---

I think that explains why I want some relational stability in my life, and my current relationship is far more stable then my previous relationship with a sociopathic substance abuser.

---

This is still on topic as is has to do with another person who is married to someone else telling me "I am your mate." I still have not told this other person how their statement made me feel as I see no point. I have told this person how I feel before and I see no point in repeating myself. I don't want to deal with the dysregulation it will cause.
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formflier
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2015, 05:26:46 AM »

  I still have not told this other person how their statement made me feel as I see no point. I have told this person how I feel before and I see no point in repeating myself. I don't want to deal with the dysregulation it will cause.

First of all good job on seeing that you have done it before... it didn't work... so don't repeat... .Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

You are getting it.  Tell him something clearly... .once... .then stop talking about it and let him see and experience the actions and boundaries that go with what you told him.

He will claim to have not heard... .he may whine... .he may dysregulate.  None of that is your concern.

Say it once... .follow it with action.  Be consistent


Next... .Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)    that the reason you won't say something is because of a dysregulation.

FOG... .   

You have handed him the power of what you do because of YOUR fear over dysregulations.

Here is what I don't understand.

You said "he is nasty" when he dysregulates.  You are in a LDR. 

How does him being nasty scare and affect you when in a LDR?  Please give detailed explanation, because you quite frequently hang up  on him.

And if he is nasty... .and you hang up... .I don't get how he affects you.

 

You are getting it... .

FF
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2015, 09:46:32 AM »

Hi FF , he quite frequently hangs up on me. Can you please point out to me where I said I quite frequently hang up on him?

I will read the fog lesson.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2015, 10:12:18 AM »

However there is also the fact that I've gotten attached to my ring.

Then there's a reason I wanted a ring in the first place : I used to feel ashamed to be a divorced mother. I used to be self conscious about not wearing a ring to school events or out in the community as a mother. When I first got the ring it was a solution to a problem.

Turkish I should add my ring is a very complicated object  for me. I did pick it out and it was custom made for me so it's definitely become a part of me. After reading Lynne forests latest email on victim vocabulary regarding resentment being feeling responsible for others it made me want to take it off again, which I do on a regular basis and put it away in a safe place. I do honor what it represents . It is a symbol of what I want in a relationship .I guess you could say I am undecided about my ring. I'm definitely resentful that it was given to me while the giver is still married to someone else, that feels internally shameful.

 It sounds like you are still struggling to find peace with yourself as a divorced mother / single woman. That you feel ashamed of your past and who you are, or at least who you have been.

And having this ring, and this relationship is something that is or has helped you cope with that, but in a way that left you very vulnerable to the person who gave you the ring.

Excerpt
This is still on topic as is has to do with another person who is married to someone else telling me "I am your mate." I still have not told this other person how their statement made me feel as I see no point. I have told this person how I feel before and I see no point in repeating myself. I don't want to deal with the dysregulation it will cause.

NOBODY wants to deal with a dysregulation. Much of the work on the staying board is to learn ways of interacting with a pwBPD that are less likely to cause one--not being invalidating (which can directly set off one). Also being more validating in general, which will long-term reduce the frequency and severity of dysregulations. All of which is very hard and very important work for these relationships.

In addition to that, there is something I've found, and most of the long-term stayers who are happy in their relationships have also found, is that being afraid of dysregulations is something I needed to work through. Because when I let my FEAR grab a hold of me and start dictating my actions, I really didn't like the result. I didn't respect myself for those actions after the fact. I also didn't feel more safe or secure in my relationship. Really, nothing good came of that.

What worked for me was to sit with the fear for a minute, allow myself to feel it, without taking any action, and then choose a course of action that was based on my values instead of a reaction to my fears.
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2015, 10:38:26 AM »

is that being afraid of dysregulations is something I needed to work through. Because when I let my FEAR grab a hold of me and start dictating my actions, I really didn't like the result. 

Really, nothing good came of that.

What worked for me was to sit with the fear for a minute, allow myself to feel it, without taking any action, and then choose a course of action that was based on my values instead of a reaction to my fears.

Critical... .once I got to this point... .things got much clearer... .I don't want to say "easier" because many times I was overcoming fear in order to taking a wise, healthy action.   

The more you do it... .the easier it became.  But even still... .I wouldn't describe it as easy.

FF
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2015, 04:34:45 PM »

 It sounds like you are still struggling to find peace with yourself as a divorced mother / single woman. That you feel ashamed of your past and who you are, or at least who you have been.

Hi Grey Kitty,

This particular post is why I waited until I could type out my answer.

Let me start by saying I am not ashamed of my past and who I am or who I have been. That is not the problem. The problem is guilt. I chose to leave my bipolar sociopathic substance abusing husband 10 years ago after 2 years of pastoral counseling, therapy and al-anon to deal with the relationship. My ex has still not been able to let go, he still refers to my mother as his mother in law. He is still abusing substances. He is still not treating his bipolar with medication or his sociopathy with therapy. To make matters worse he goes to church every Sunday which I don't want to get into here. So there is no shame on my part for divorcing my husband, there is guilt. My mother, who may have traits of BPD herself, blamed my ex's relapse on me. I probably need to start working on that issue on the coping board.

Excerpt
And having this ring, and this relationship is something that is or has helped you cope with that, but in a way that left you very vulnerable to the person who gave you the ring.

For me the ring, or the relationship, because I don't always wear the ring, both keeps me out of trouble and frustrates me. Everybody knows I'm in a relationship even though they don't see me with the guy.


Excerpt
NOBODY wants to deal with a dysregulation. Much of the work on the staying board is to learn ways of interacting with a pwBPD that are less likely to cause one--not being invalidating (which can directly set off one). Also being more validating in general, which will long-term reduce the frequency and severity of dysregulations. All of which is very hard and very important work for these relationships.

Then it sounds like I need to focus my next two posts on both invalidation and validation. I will repeat that my pwBPD not only does not think he needs validation but he looks down his nose at those who do, thinking its weak, so that makes things particularly hard for me.

I have discussed my pwBPD's narcissism with a former therapist and because of the industry my pwBPD works in he needs a certain amount of healthy narcissism to be successful. It is interesting to mention that when I spoke to my father, whom my current therapist thinks has NPD, about narcissism he also said everybody needs a certain healthy amount of narcissism.

My pwBPD denies he has any  narcissism however I believe it is narcissism which allows him to speak so condescendingly of validation.

So that makes my road particularly hard when it comes to validation.

I have yet to read about anyone else pwBPD complaining about validation being for the weak.

Excerpt
In addition to that, there is something I've found, and most of the long-term stayers who are happy in their relationships have also found, is that being afraid of dysregulations is something I needed to work through. Because when I let my FEAR grab a hold of me and start dictating my actions, I really didn't like the result. I didn't respect myself for those actions after the fact. I also didn't feel more safe or secure in my relationship. Really, nothing good came of that.

So I will focus my  next areas of study on invalidation, validation, and the FOG. I've studied the FOG in SWOE and the SWOE workbook.

Excerpt
What worked for me was to sit with the fear for a minute, allow myself to feel it, without taking any action, and then choose a course of action that was based on my values instead of a reaction to my fears.

That sounds very helpful. Thank you for posting that. Today there's not anything I feel I need to tell my pwBPD, today, right now, in this moment, I feel at peace.
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2015, 05:07:29 PM »

Staff only

Thanks everybody for participating in the discussion. The thread has reached it's post limit and is now locked. You are welcome with starting a new or similar topic of discussion.
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