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Author Topic: Poor executive control: What can and can't I say about my feelings to a pwBPD?  (Read 867 times)
unicorn2014
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« on: November 11, 2015, 01:08:10 AM »

  stayers

So over the course of the last discussion I asked a question a couple of times that did not get an answer so I figured I'd give it its own show.

FF had mentioned to me that less is more when communicating feelings to a pwBPD.

I kind of got myself in trouble a couple of days ago when I told my pwBPD that sometimes I felt like he treated me like a small child treats its comfort object, dragging it down the hallway by its ear. I was actually saying it out of compassion for him, not out of resentment or anger, but he got totally offended. I tried googling an image to show him what I meant but that offended him even more. www.2.bp.blogspot.com/-YTjTgklLX6k/UTUN3jdBWPI/AAAAAAAACqo/hVOpg2i18L4/s1600/Young+English+boy+and+stuffed+animal+after+bombing,+1945.jpg

He told me that was disgusting.

He ended up sending me an email about objectify and asking me if that's what I meant.

It wasn't.

I didn't respond to the email.



I was disappointed by his reaction. I was actually trying to address the  part of him that is like a little child, I wasn't trying to be mean or nasty. I wasn't saying that he hurt me, I was trying to communicate to him that sometimes I think he treats me like a comfort object, but I wasn't saying it in a cruel way. I was actually trying to express  empathy and acceptance to him in a humorous manner, but he didn't receive it that way at all.

So, am I not allowed to use metaphors with my pwBPD when describing my feelings? Will that get me in trouble every time?  I definitely don't want to go through that kind of reaction again. It was  a big waste of time and energy.
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 01:45:44 AM »

I think that poor communication can muddle things quite often.  A lack of understanding on what is being communicated is not solely attributed to BPD. Communication is a two way street. 

In my opinion, your partner did not understand the context or what you were trying to articulate. Expressing feelings can be hard, especially to someone who is very sensitive to criticism.  The lack of response to his email most likely exacerbated his hurt feelings. Why didn't you respond to the email?

SET is honestly one of the best tools for communicating.  I use it with not only my bf, but other people who are in my life. I have communicated my feelings about quite a few sensitive topics with minimal problems. I like to talk through my feelings with my bf and I really have not had a problem with being longwinded. I don't feel the need to hold back.  I have used metaphors and similes to describe how I feel and never had a problem. Although what may work for me and my bf, may not work for another. 

We may not always like the reaction of another person if we tell them something they may not agree with. Unfortunately, people are not always are going to agree. Regardless of anticipating an unfavorable response from a loved one, it feels good to be able to express your opinions and feelings and not worry if it will upset them. 

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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 02:06:05 AM »

Hi eagles and thank you for responding .

Why didn't I respond to my pwBPD email?

How would you respond to this:

-----

Subject: objectify

Is this how you see me sometimes?

* Instrumentality – treating as a tool for one’s own purposes;

* Denial of autonomy – treating as if lacking in self-determination;

* Inertness – treating as if lacking in agency;

* Ownership – treating as if owned by another;

* Fungibility – treating as if interchangeable;

* Violability – treating as if permissible to smash;

* and the denial of subjectivity – treating as if there is no need to show concern for the ‘object’s’ feelings

----

I was trying to tell him sometimes he acts like a hurt little child and I'm his comfort object (stuffed animal). He totally twisted it around.

He has this habit of telling me I don't know the meaning of the words I'm using or I don't say what I mean.

---

I noticed you said you express yourself poetically to your boyfriend. I also notice your person is a parent. May I ask if your boyfriend is a non? I'm sorry I'm not familiar with your story yet.

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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2015, 04:09:08 AM »

Two  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  s

#1 Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)... It was a criticism no matter how you dress it up, that is all he hears.

#2 Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) pwBPD dont do analogies as that needs an appreciation of context, they struggle with this. You liken  him to a child=You are calling him a child

The whole exchange all he hears is "you are like a useless child". The rest is drowned out
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2015, 09:23:33 AM »

Two  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  s

#1 Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)... It was a criticism no matter how you dress it up, that is all he hears.

#2 Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) pwBPD dont do analogies as that needs an appreciation of context, they struggle with this. You liken  him to a child=You are calling him a child

The whole exchange all he hears is "you are like a useless child". The rest is drowned out

Ok, so he can criticize me all he wants, but if he even thinks I'm critiquing him, he gets to dysregulate?

2. So no analogies for me yet he gets to use all the analogies he wants?

That sure doesn't seem fair.

That sure seems like a way to build resentments.

On top of this all he denies that he has any BPD traits left, now it's all PTSD.

This is maddening.
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 09:36:53 AM »

Why didn't I respond to my pwBPD email?

How would you respond to this:

-----

Subject: objectify

Is this how you see me sometimes?

* Instrumentality – treating as a tool for one’s own purposes;

* Denial of autonomy – treating as if lacking in self-determination;

* Inertness – treating as if lacking in agency;

* Ownership – treating as if owned by another;

* Fungibility – treating as if interchangeable;

* Violability – treating as if permissible to smash;

* and the denial of subjectivity – treating as if there is no need to show concern for the ‘object’s’ feelings

----

I was trying to tell him sometimes he acts like a hurt little child and I'm his comfort object (stuffed animal). He totally twisted it around.

He has this habit of telling me I don't know the meaning of the words I'm using or I don't say what I mean.

Waverider summed up how most likely he perceived the comment. People who have low self-worth and self-esteem are very sensitive to criticism. I can see with his email how he may have felt. It seems that he feels that you perceive in this manner. As you know with pwBPD, feelings of the moment are equal to facts.

Do you think there could have been a better way to articulate what you were trying to say?

It is beneficial to use words such as, "I feel."

I noticed you said you express yourself poetically to your boyfriend. I also notice your person is a parent. May I ask if your boyfriend is a non? I'm sorry I'm not familiar with your story yet.

My bf suffers from BPD/Bipolar. I do express my feelings with him. I did not express my feelings so openly for a very long time, due to being in fear of his reaction. It is feasible with validation and using SET. We have an understanding of our communication types. He knows that I am a "talker" and like to communicate. He is not the greatest with communicating and knows he has a problem with it (those are his own words).  He is working on it though and has improved, but he has a tendency to jump to conclusions or assume. I can tell when he is getting to that point of assuming.
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 09:51:14 AM »

Eagles,

I did say I feel but then I used an analogy, so I guess an analogy is out.

My pwBPD says he doesn't need validation.

It's very difficult to get along with a person who denies he has BPD and acts like he does.

It's also hard to get along with a person who denies he needs validation and acts like he does.

It's definitely unfair.
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 10:08:30 AM »

I did say I feel but then I used an analogy, so I guess an analogy is out.

My pwBPD says he doesn't need validation.

It's very difficult to get along with a person who denies he has BPD and acts like he does.

It's also hard to get along with a person who denies he needs validation and acts like he does.

It's definitely unfair.

Everyone needs validation. It is a part of communicating and understanding another person. I think it is a human need to want to be heard and understood.  How it is applied is reliant on individual needs and characteristics. From my experience, I found it is best to give validation regardless of what was said.

It is hard for some people to accept that they have a mental illness. For this reason, that is why many psychologists/psychiatrists do not focus on labels. It can be stigmatizing and many people just focus on maladaptive behavior. Why is the label of BPD so important to you?

Changing how you react and respond to him will make things less difficult. It is unfair, but you can level the playing field with your own changes.




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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 10:40:32 AM »

Eagles, the "label" is important because why else would I be in a support forum for people in r/s with pwBPD? He gets to deny the "label" but I have to deal with the behavior? I didn't say a therapist didn't describe him as borderline. I said he thinks he's outgrown borderline.

As to validation: so I have to do the extra work for a person who looks down his nose at validation and sees needing it as weak? That is what he told me. That is also out of balance.

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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 11:15:07 AM »

Ok, so he can criticize me all he wants, but if he even thinks I'm critiquing him, he gets to dysregulate?

Yes... .

Please don't focus on what he "gets to do"... .put your focus on what "you get to do". 

He criticizes, you get to make a choice to listen or hang up or possibly other choices as well. 

His mouth... .his choices about what comes out of it.

Your ears... .your choices about what goes in them... .


I would suggest you switch "thinks" to "feels".  Remember... .the "batttleground" of BPD is their feelings of the moment.


2. So no analogies for me yet he gets to use all the analogies he wants?

This is maddening.

Again... .yes... .

You have a choice to listen to those analogies or not.  I would suggest you not listen.

Yes... it can be maddening... .frustrating... .

FF
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 11:18:04 AM »

For flyer , this is crazy and at least I'm getting it.

To make things even more infuriating he clings stubbornly to his temperament type, NT, from the Myers Briggs, and says he thinks his feelings.

He basically gets a free pass to be a jerk.

Definitely out of balance.
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 11:27:50 AM »

 

He basically gets a free pass to be a jerk.

Definitely out of balance.



Yes you are getting it.

Yes he gets to be whatever he wants to be.

It depends on point of view (IMO) if it is out of balance or not.

He is... who he is... .you are who you are.  That seems balanced

You get to make choices about how you behave and what behavior you will tolerate from others.

He gets to make choices about how he behaves and the behavior he will tolerate from others.

To me... .that seems balanced as well.

What is is that seems out of balance to you?

FF
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 11:32:43 AM »

Unicorn, I see that you think this stuff is unfair and it is. Being with someone with Borderline traits or even just BPD in full is not really a fair relationship. We choose to be with them or we choose to leave. As for the Analogies thing, I know when my husband uses his ridiculous analogies he is usually at the total opposite of the spectrum of things, an extreme example of what he is trying to explain. If I say I didn't mean to do something, he will use the analogy of I didn't mean for his Dick to fall in me... .with people who have BPD things are never grey, they are black or white and any analogy you use to describe him he's probably going to see as black if it is any form of criticism. Just because that is how he thinks, you can't change how he thinks you can only change how you act. You obviously think differently than him and understand that your analogy wasn't meant with any harm but that is simply not how he took it, nothing is going to change that. What you can do is keep focusing on how you speak to him, if something isn't working then change what you are doing. It doesn't really matter if he denies the label because this support group is for people who need help with their relationship regardless of whether they acknowledge they have BPD or even if they just have traits of it. The tools work on both types. The only person you have control over is you, how you act, how you think and how you react.
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 11:36:40 AM »

Form flier what is out of balance is I didn't know any of this about him when I accepted his marriage proposal and now I'm in a committed r/s with a pwBPD traits.

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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 11:40:09 AM »

Cloudy days, thank you. He likes to point out to me that I think differently then him which translates to as thinks incorrectly.

Today everything is fine and  I'm still annoyed by something he said yesterday about the subject that's been beaten to death in my previous threads. I'm still mad at him for the preposterous things he expects me to believe are true.
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 11:49:33 AM »

I'm still mad at him for the preposterous things he expects me to believe are true.

You don't have to believe him, you just have to acknowledge that you hear him and understand him. That's actually a part of Validation. You know that you can agree to disagree but again, that's not how his brain works. If you don't believe something that he believes then you are telling him that he is stupid in his own dysfunctional way of thinking. So you have to throw him a bone so to say. If you understand where he is coming from that makes him feel less wrong.

Also you are not alone, my husband was a completely different person when I married him. Of course there were  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  but it wasn't the full blown BPD mess that I deal with today.
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2015, 12:01:31 PM »

Cloudy days, when my fiancé proposed to me he was already across the country. I was infatuated and I had only had one prior relationship, my marriage to a bipolar substance abuser, so I had no gauge for normal.

My pwBPD does not like agreeing to disagree but he's come to use that term.

When I say preposterous things, I mean the ongoing excuses dealing with the subject of my prior posts. I used to believe him until I came to this forum. Now with the help of this forum im starting to challenge what he says.
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 12:25:54 PM »

Form flier what is out of balance is I didn't know any of this about him when I accepted his marriage proposal and now I'm in a committed r/s with a pwBPD traits.

OK... I'm confess that I am the one totally missing the analogy... .if out of balance was supposed to be analogy.

My understanding is that you didn't know him at all when you accepted marriage proposal... .correct?  My understanding is you made a choice to start your r/s at engagement.

Please explain what is "out of balance".

I look at it this way.  I didn't know any of the stuff I know about my wife before I married her.  In fact, a lot didn't become clear until about year 15 of marriage.  Natural disaster put extreme stress on our family... we were out of home for 6 months.  I learned a lot about her during that time... .she learned a lot about me.  BPD traits blossomed and took off from there.

That is the situation that I find myself in today.

FF

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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2015, 12:28:58 PM »

  Now with the help of this forum im starting to challenge what he says.

Challenging what they say is generally not a good strategy to deal with a pwBPD traits.

Challenge is a close cousin to argue.

FF
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 01:07:54 PM »

Form flier, I didn't consciously think I'm beginning this r/s at the level of engagement . I didn't learn that until I joined this forum.
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2015, 01:35:33 PM »

Eagles, the "label" is important because why else would I be in a support forum for people in r/s with pwBPD? He gets to deny the "label" but I have to deal with the behavior? I didn't say a therapist didn't describe him as borderline. I said he thinks he's outgrown borderline.

I understand the label is important to you, but the maladaptive behavior is what affects you most. That is a large reason why people tend to focus on the behavior. For this reason, understanding BPD behavior really helps. 

You do not have to deal with anything. You have the choice to not deal with his behavior. Only he can change his behavior and take the initiative to work on himself.

As to validation: so I have to do the extra work for a person who looks down his nose at validation and sees needing it as weak? That is what he told me. That is also out of balance.

All relationships take work. It does take more effort being in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Understanding how pwBPD behave is important with improving your relationship. He has his views and you have yours. The question is learning how to improve things in spite of your different viewpoints.
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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2015, 01:36:47 PM »

Form flier, I didn't consciously think I'm beginning this r/s at the level of engagement . I didn't learn that until I joined this forum.

So, when he sent you the ring, and asked you to get engaged, what was your impression of what you were doing or agreeing to.

FF

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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2015, 02:31:37 PM »

Eagles, so how do I not deal with the behavior?
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2015, 02:34:06 PM »

Form flier, at the time it seemed like a good idea as I was an active member of my parish and it seemed like the ideal r/s. I knew nothing about BPD behavior at the time and it seemed like a r/s that fit my values. At the time I believed everything that he said to me.
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 02:39:32 PM »

Form flier, if I can't challenge what he says then what can I do? It seems like my only option if I want to stay is to submit to what he says and I don't want to do that.
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2015, 02:47:53 PM »

You can acknowledge his feelings and validate something that is true about his feelings. You don't have to submit to anything. Even if it is "it must be terrible to feel like that" You aren't agreeing with anything you don't want to agree with.
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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2015, 02:56:48 PM »

Ok cloudy days here is a perfect example of the kind of behavior I tolerate.

He just hung up on me because I told him when he doesn't respond to what I say it makes feel like ending the conversation because it's over.

I have very little patience left.

I just got out of a class and he texted me 5 times and then called me.

I am not happy with him because of something that happened yesterday. There's no point in telling him how I feel because the situation hasn't changed. He hasn't given me what I wanted, he's made even more excuses for not giving me what I want. I was actually astounded at the sheer amount of excuses he was able to produce. It even impressed  me and I'm not easy to impress.

I'm barely hanging onto this r/s by a thread.

I'm so done with being emotionally dominated by him.
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2015, 02:59:09 PM »

Form flier, if I can't challenge what he says then what can I do? It seems like my only option if I want to stay is to submit to what he says and I don't want to do that.

You believe your reality... .let him have his.

Your reality rules inside your boundaries and things that you control.  His reality rules inside his boundaries and areas that he controls.

Almost a certainty that he will try to "put" his reality inside your boundaries.  That is his right to try and do that... .you don't control what he does.  You can control if you let that reality inside your boundaries.  

There is a Radical Acceptance part of this.  It is odd the way "they" think... .I have personally expended a lot of energy trying to change the way my wife thinks and perceives things.

I am convinced that energy was wasted and my r/s is better by focusing on what and how I think... .instead of her.

FF
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 03:03:40 PM »

Form flier, at the time it seemed like a good idea as I was an active member of my parish and it seemed like the ideal r/s. I knew nothing about BPD behavior at the time and it seemed like a r/s that fit my values. At the time I believed everything that he said to me.

You didn't answer the question.

What was your impression of what you were doing when he sent you thing ring and asked you to be engaged?

You made a choice based on something... .it appears that you made a choice to become engaged.  

I ask because what you said below was confusing and not clear.

"Form flier, I didn't consciously think I'm beginning this r/s at the level of engagement"

So... .did you become engaged without consciously making a choice?

I'm not interested in what he said... .or didn't say... .I'm interested in what you decided for yourself.

FF
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 03:06:54 PM »

Form flier I hear what you are saying and I am wondering how I can apply it to what's going on right now. I did take your advice and am really trying to cut down on the amount of times I react to him.

For example he just hung up on me because I told him when he doesn't respond to me it makes me think the conversation is over and I want to end it. I put my phone in do not disturb mode. I am sure he's sent me texts.

He claims the call was lost. I don't believe him.

In terms of how the r/s started, I thought it was a good idea at the time to be engaged. I had no idea that 3 years later nothing would have changed. Does that answer your question?
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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 03:08:58 PM »

Eagles, so how do I not deal with the behavior?

You have a couple of options. One is to learn to accept this is the way he behaves.  If you go the route of radical acceptance, it is understanding that his behavior has nothing to do with you and nor can you change it. You can choose to not become affected by the way he acts and accept this is a part of the disorder.  Another option is to set boundaries and decide what you will and will not tolerate. If you cannot tolerate his behavior, it is up to you to decide what is best for you.

These are decisions that you can make for yourself. He cannot make these decisions. Expecting him to conform is going to lead you in circles. You cannot control the way he behaves or thinks.  
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 03:11:02 PM »

In terms of how the r/s started, I thought it was a good idea at the time to be engaged. I had no idea that 3 years later nothing would have changed. Does that answer your question?

Not really... .what did you "consciously think" was happening when you thought it was a good idea to become engaged?

I'm not asking about what you thought the future would turn out to be... .I'm asking what you thought was happening when he asked you to be engaged.

FF
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 03:15:42 PM »

For example he just hung up on me because I told him when he doesn't respond to me it makes me think the conversation is over and I want to end it. I put my phone in do not disturb mode. I am sure he's sent me texts.



This seems to me to be an explanation for what you want to do.  Explanation is part of JADE.  JADE is generally not a good way to do things with pwBPD.

End it on your terms... .no explanation.

"I'll let you think about the issue I raised... .I'll call you tomorrow night and we can discuss it"

Then... move on with your life until the next time you reach out to him.

If he is being nice to you and not "emotionally dominating" you... .then sure... .take his calls... .answer his texts.

If he is not being nice... .create some space for him to "soothe himself".  The reasons he is not being nice, very likely, have nothing to do with you.

FF
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 05:55:38 PM »

Eagles, so how do I not deal with the behavior?

You have a couple of options. One is to learn to accept this is the way he behaves.  If you go the route of radical acceptance, it is understanding that his behavior has nothing to do with you and nor can you change it. You can choose to not become affected by the way he acts and accept this is a part of the disorder.  Another option is to set boundaries and decide what you will and will not tolerate. If you cannot tolerate his behavior, it is up to you to decide what is best for you.

So how can I not be affected by the way he acts, as that is the more attractive option to me. Keeping in mind he is in denial about having the disorder and when he's dysregulated he likes to attack me and say I have the disorder.
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 05:57:47 PM »

In terms of how the r/s started, I thought it was a good idea at the time to be engaged. I had no idea that 3 years later nothing would have changed. Does that answer your question?

Not really... .what did you "consciously think" was happening when you thought it was a good idea to become engaged?

I'm not asking about what you thought the future would turn out to be... .I'm asking what you thought was happening when he asked you to be engaged.

FF

I thought that he was going to divorce his wife, move out here and we were going to get married. That's what he said was going to happen. I can't remember if he proposed before or after I found out he was married. I'm thinking before as he told me he was hoping to unwind everything before I found out about it. He thought he was going to be able to divorce quickly. He said he didn't tell me he was married to protect me.
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2015, 06:01:34 PM »

For example he just hung up on me because I told him when he doesn't respond to me it makes me think the conversation is over and I want to end it. I put my phone in do not disturb mode. I am sure he's sent me texts.



This seems to me to be an explanation for what you want to do.  Explanation is part of JADE.  JADE is generally not a good way to do things with pwBPD.

End it on your terms... .no explanation.

"I'll let you think about the issue I raised... .I'll call you tomorrow night and we can discuss it"

That's not why the call was lost. The call was lost after I told him I didn't have time to call him on my break as I had to pay for my class, go to the bathroom and that was it. He had told me he was waiting around during my break to see if I would call. He's very clingy and needy.

Excerpt
If he is being nice to you and not "emotionally dominating" you... .then sure... .take his calls... .answer his texts.

You put emotionally dominating in quotes. What would you call it?

Excerpt
If he is not being nice... .create some space for him to "soothe himself".  The reasons he is not being nice, very likely, have nothing to do with you.

FF

He wasn't, he was letting me hang out there in the air at the bus stop. I had asked him if he liked listening to the background noise. I hate it when he goes quiet on a phone call. Its like a mini silent treatment. We could probably sit there for a long time with neither of us saying anything. He says this is being connected. I say its annoying and a waste of time and energy.

So I guess in this case I could say "It seems the conversation is over as we have nothing further to say, so I'm going to go now."

Of course if I did that he'd get offended and say it was too abrupt.

Its really a no win situation for me.

He likes hanging out on the phone saying nothing because it helps him feel connected to me.

It helps me get irritated with him.

Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2015, 06:40:50 PM »

So how can I not be affected by the way he acts, as that is the more attractive option to me. Keeping in mind he is in denial about having the disorder and when he's dysregulated he likes to attack me and say I have the disorder.

You do this by learning to radically accept the disorder. His denial of BPD has nothing to do with you and is his issue. You are letting it become your issue by reacting to his attacks and accusations. If you believe what he says is not true, then why does it bother you?



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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2015, 07:23:33 PM »

Eagles it bothers me because he said he spent a small fortune vetting my concerns which totally invalidates me because here I am, even after all that. Does that make sense?

He's very persuasive .
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2015, 07:44:19 PM »

Eagles it bothers me because he said he spent a small fortune vetting my concerns which totally invalidates me because here I am, even after all that. Does that make sense?

He's very persuasive .

spent a small fortune vetting my concerns... .  (what does that mean).

How does him vetting concerns invalidate you?  If you are concerned... and he checked them out... .wouldn't that validate your concern?

I'm totally lost.

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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2015, 08:04:32 PM »

Formflier he spent a lot of money on therapists to see if he had borderline and he feels satisfied he doesn't so ultimately that invalidates me because I still think he has BPD regardless of what he says his therapists said. I know for a fact he misinterpreted / misrepresented one of them.
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2015, 08:10:03 PM »

Formflier he spent a lot of money on therapists to see if he had borderline and he feels satisfied he doesn't so ultimately that invalidates me because I still think he has BPD regardless of what he says his therapists said. I know for a fact he misinterpreted / misrepresented one of them.

OK... I'm not lost anymore.

Look... .this guy is obviously prone to deception.  I would not take anything he says about what professionals have told him at face value.

Even better... .why worry about it at all?

You can deal with the behavior that is presented to you.  Whether or not he has BPD makes no difference on whether or not you would stay on the phone with him while he is being abusive. 

Focus on the behavior.

Let him believe what he believes... .

You believe what you believe.

FF
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2015, 08:21:00 PM »

Ok form flier I will try.

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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2015, 05:59:02 AM »

Formflier he spent a lot of money on therapists to see if he had borderline and he feels satisfied he doesn't so ultimately that invalidates me because I still think he has BPD regardless of what he says his therapists said. I know for a fact he misinterpreted / misrepresented one of them.

OK... I'm not lost anymore.

Look... .this guy is obviously prone to deception.  I would not take anything he says about what professionals have told him at face value.

Even better... .why worry about it at all?

You can deal with the behavior that is presented to you.  Whether or not he has BPD makes no difference on whether or not you would stay on the phone with him while he is being abusive. 

Focus on the behavior.

Let him believe what he believes... .

You believe what you believe.

FF

Deal with what you see in front of you, and how it affects you... That is your reality.

What he says, or tells you anyone else says, or even if you know what anyone else says... That is their reality.

Two people rarely have the same reality. A pwBPD and a non generally have a huge mismatch in realities that can't be bridged... .that is were radical acceptance comes in. Acknowledge he has his for his own reasons, and that he is not receptive to buying yours. Consequently dont waste your energy trying to sell it, or try to arrive at an agreed reality. This will repeat on many issues.

The current issue may be today's problem, but there will be a constant stream of similar discrepancies. Hence take the focus away from specific issues, and think more how you respond to these mismatches, otherwise you will be constantly angry at the unfairness of it all.

Borderline is close to psychotic, but not so far into it that the delusions of reality are still quite believable. If they were fully psychotic and were telling you they like to keep pink elephants as pets it would be so obviously nonsense that you wouldn't even bother arguing with them.

This is the biggest issue with BPD most of the time they sound believable so they are under diagnosed, under treated, and able delude themselves that they even have a problem. In short an ability to bluff their way through life unless you really know them... .In turn we delude ourselves that if we just address this issue, or that, and lay down a few ground rules we can shake them out of it. We can't, they will still believe they keep pink elephants, but lie about it to avoid being criticized.
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2015, 09:59:59 AM »

Wave rider that makes me not want to stick around.

Last night he was telling me how my mom was paranoid, then I told him that's the ninth trait of BPD. He said he never had that trait then shortly thereafter he went on to tell me how he thinks his best friend wants to steal something he wrote from him. As a result of this board I was able to recognize he does exhibit signs of paranoia.

Yesterday he also asked me if he would hold on to a family heirloom for him because he's afraid something might happen to it. I told him I would get back to him.

I did not know him at all before he proposed to me. I would not  have  chosen to be in a r/s with him had I known about all this.
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2015, 10:41:47 AM »

Last night he was telling me how my mom was paranoid, then I told him that's the ninth trait of BPD. He said he never had that trait then shortly thereafter he went on to tell me how he thinks his best friend wants to steal something he wrote from him. As a result of this board I was able to recognize he does exhibit signs of paranoia.

Is there a good... .healthy reason to be discussing your mom's paranoia (or lack of paranoia) with the pwBPD in your life?

Debating who has what... .discussing it... .rarely results in anything good. 

FF
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2015, 02:08:20 PM »

Wave rider that makes me not want to stick around.

You realize that you do not have to stick around, you may want to examine the reasons you want to stay in this relationship. It is something all of us have had to do from time to time. Figure out why you are really in it for the long haul. No one is telling you to stay or go that is your choice. But it is important to really evaluate why you are staying as they may be dysfunctional reasons, especially since you have been raised by someone with a personality disorder.
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2015, 03:53:27 PM »

Wave rider that makes me not want to stick around.

We all have these thoughts at times, that is part of the ebb and flow of our emotions.

As Cloudydays points out, this is when we fall back on those internal debates where we have added up all the pros and cons and made objective and logical decisions which are not just based on emotions to get us through.

If we are reacting only to what we want in the moment, we will not be able to stay centered
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2015, 04:18:24 PM »

Last night he was telling me how my mom was paranoid, then I told him that's the ninth trait of BPD. He said he never had that trait then shortly thereafter he went on to tell me how he thinks his best friend wants to steal something he wrote from him. As a result of this board I was able to recognize he does exhibit signs of paranoia.

Is there a good... .healthy reason to be discussing your mom's paranoia (or lack of paranoia) with the pwBPD in your life?

Debating who has what... .discussing it... .rarely results in anything good. 

FF

FF

He was relating to me about my mom so I suppose next time I could just listen. He and my mom have their own separate relationship. Again, he initiated the conversation.

I need to find a way to indicate when he starts the conversation because sometimes I feel like things are being attributed to me that I didn't start. I will endeavor to be more clear in my future posts.
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 04:20:10 PM »

Wave rider that makes me not want to stick around.

You realize that you do not have to stick around, you may want to examine the reasons you want to stay in this relationship. It is something all of us have had to do from time to time. Figure out why you are really in it for the long haul. No one is telling you to stay or go that is your choice. But it is important to really evaluate why you are staying as they may be dysfunctional reasons, especially since you have been raised by someone with a personality disorder.

Hi Cloudy Days, yes, my dad probably has NPD, and his mom probably had BPD.

I don't think my reasons for staying are dysfunctional.

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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 04:21:57 PM »

Wave rider that makes me not want to stick around.

We all have these thoughts at times, that is part of the ebb and flow of our emotions.

As Cloudydays points out, this is when we fall back on those internal debates where we have added up all the pros and cons and made objective and logical decisions which are not just based on emotions to get us through.

If we are reacting only to what we want in the moment, we will not be able to stay centered

Wave rider I hear you and thankfully I'm able to apply the pros and cons I learned in DBT: the pros and cons of leaving, the pros and cons of staying, and at this point I could not find a substantial pro for leaving. I am very grateful I have an opportunity to practice dbt again as I find it really helpful in my relationship.
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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2015, 04:43:20 PM »

He was relating to me about my mom so I suppose next time I could just listen. He and my mom have their own separate relationship. Again, he initiated the conversation.

I need to find a way to indicate when he starts the conversation because sometimes I feel like things are being attributed to me that I didn't start. I will endeavor to be more clear in my future posts.

It was clear (to me) that he started it.  It was also clear that you made a choice to participate.

My suggestion is that you consider not participating in these conversations.  Politely decline.  If he insists on continuing, let him know you will call him back the next day (or something like that)

No explanation, just let him know that is not a conversation you will have.

FF
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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2015, 04:49:15 PM »

He was relating to me about my mom so I suppose next time I could just listen. He and my mom have their own separate relationship. Again, he initiated the conversation.

I need to find a way to indicate when he starts the conversation because sometimes I feel like things are being attributed to me that I didn't start. I will endeavor to be more clear in my future posts.

It was clear (to me) that he started it.  It was also clear that you made a choice to participate.

My suggestion is that you consider not participating in these conversations.  Politely decline.  If he insists on continuing, let him know you will call him back the next day (or something like that)

No explanation, just let him know that is not a conversation you will have.

FF

FF, this conversation took place on FT at night when my daughter was home. I wasn't going to dysregulate myself and hang up on him because he started talking about my mom's paranoia. My mistake was to mention the 9th trait of BPD as he immediately related it to himself and then said he's never been that way. It was almost humorous how a story followed of how his best friend tried to take something from him that he wrote. I didn't point out the inconsistency to him however it is hard for me to contain the fact that he also seems to be exhibiting paranoia and be in denial of it.

I think I would be ok with just listening.

I learned a long time ago in Al-Anon that the proper response to an alcoholic who was telling you a story was "oh, so and no". I could have just said oh?

I was actually trying to apply Al-Anon to my pwBPD however it was not enough which is why I came here.

Even Randi Kreger in SWOE mentions Al-Anon when it comes to practicing detachment.

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