Personal stuff / sex and romance

[RedPixie]

I'm in a pickle.

I upset my SO last night while he was initiating love making.

He put his hand up my shirt to my boob and i wasn't quite "ready"  i said as i withdrew "straight in there" i regreted it immediately. ... i know i should have diverted him or directed him positively but in the moment i was annoyed yet again he was inappropriately "unromantic"

I have a strong hormonal cycle

3 days before and after ovulation I'm like a rampent rabbit

Then i have about 8 days where i need a bit more romance and softness ro "get me there"then about 10 days before and during my period where I'm not interested at all

I know my cycle well - have discussed it millions of times over the last 10 years. Even given him a calendar each month with green days / yellow days and red days so that he knows when I'm most receptive or sensitive.

He hates it, he tells me I'm the one who controls the sex

It has to be my way or i'm not responsive... .

How do i get my needs met - romance

In order to give him what he wants... .sex.

When i tell him what romance means to me

What he can do to "get me there" (e mail nice things i like)

He forgets it all and then gets frustrated with me for not being the one to chase or "want" him.

I've asked many times what i can do to make him feel more in control - thinking that the calendars and clear instructions on how to be romantic would give him the tools to know how to approach me.

This happens on a weekly basis apart from my green days when I'm pretty receptive / he's a great lover and a sexy man. It isn't about him. Its about my needs.

...

Help?

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Because this is an "emotional" disorder that affects intimacy... .this are will likely be problematic.  It can get better and worse... .but likelihood of it ever getting solved and staying that way are low.

I suspect many non to non r/s are that way too.  Sex is an individual thing.

Try to make it fun when you make your point... .make your request.

The calendar is great.  Make a big deal about going after him during those 10 days you have no interest.  There is a pint you are making here.  You are doing things to please him... .he can reciprocate.

When it's over and you have worked him over good... .hand him a card with what you want on it.  Put down the date of a day you are really in the mood... .and write out your request. 

How do you think he would take something like this?

FF

[hergestridge]

The "calendar" thing is such a great idea. The trouble for a lover of a BPD woman (at least in my case) is that such a thing as good days and bad days for lovemaking couldn't be discussed or brought into the open. When things was at its worst she held me responsible for her lack of sex drive during "bad days" of the months, since she couldn't imagine that her lust would return just a few days later. She simply thought our relationship was in trouble and we would have to have "the talk" (once again).

It seems that much of the trouble related to sex here are more or less common issues in relationship, only that the problems are magnified by one part's inability to handle emotions.

I don't think it's typical for the BPD male to initiate quickly and out of nowhere and that "cuddling always has to lead to sex". It's typical for the male. And I don't think it's typical for the BPD female to withhold sex if she's uncomfortable with the person she's with. I think it's typical for the female. These are all human, healthy behaviors. The unhealthy part is the situation you get yourself into due to the illness.

[RedPixie]

Thanks i appreciate your replies.

FF - are you saying - go after him when I'm in the 10 days I'm not interested?  I don't understand - I'm not into it so isn't he going to think I'm being fake?  "I have to want it" for him to feel up to it too... .i would find it difficult pretending to desire him when i have no desire at all...  

i go all out when I'm in the green / i make sure he feels like king... .but then when yellow days come around he seems to forget the entire previous week when i was " rabbit" and won't accept that things really arent how he thinks... .he starts saying that we only have sex twice a month... .its just not true. (6 on avrg)

Green week maybe 2-4 times

Yellow week maybe 1-2 times

Red week maybe once if he shows sensitivity

He is a great lover so its nothing that he is or isn't doing its just that "foreplay" - mental stimulation i need on yellow days -  he finds difficult or resents, i don't know

As long as i have " needs" that need to be met before I'm at the same desire level he is at, he will always feel like i control the sex... .

But isn't this the same for ALL women

If we don't want it or aren't ready IT ISN'T HAPPENING.

Its not personal - which he thinks it is a rejection or i don't think he's sexy, or i dont love him etc.

Even though i spend days treating him like king so that he remembers i love him and desire him.

Should i apologise for pushing his hand away and saying "your straight in there" or should i stick to my boundary and accept that this is the way it is. ... .

Radical acceptance is hard.

I've only just found this forum

He has no idea he may have BPD /NPD

I found this through my own desperate attempt to get some answers to the lost and guilty feelings i was having in my relationship with him.

Always feeling blamed for the very things i was bringing up in his behavior always feeling "stupid" or not good enough... .

Apart from those days when I'm all over him and he feels wanted and loved (sexed) the rest of the time is such a struggle.

Sometimes i just want a cuddle that doesn't lead to sex.

I have to do something new , the calendar has been going for about 3 months now but i honestly thik he forgets or isn't interested in where I'm at.

Then my feelings of resentment surface.

Its not fair yada yada yada victim speak... .

Its only been 1 week of JADE

So much to learn! Am i up to a lifetime of this?

I always thought his mood was situational

Miscarriages, debt , death, work, stress all getting to him but now i know it will always be there I'm having a wobble.

Thanks for the guidance

X

[formflier]

FF - are you saying - go after him when I'm in the 10 days I'm not interested?  I don't understand - I'm not into it so isn't he going to think I'm being fake?  "I have to want it" for him to feel up to it too... .i would find it difficult pretending to desire him when i have no desire at all...  

Yes!  Exactly.

You are showing leadership... .that sex is about putting your desires aside to serve your mate.

If you want him to do this... or do more of this for you... .be incredibly obvious about doing it for him. 

Also... as a guy... .be detailed about what you want him to do.  We aren't mind readers and don't take hints very well.

Then... .during times when he is pouncing on you... .and you are not up for it there is a bigger chance that saying no... .or wait... .or slow down... .will be taken better.

FF

[formflier]

So much to learn! Am i up to a lifetime of this?

Yes you are!  The education you get here will make life better... .

You can do this!

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't think I handled this kind of thing well, but I didn't understand it at the time. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have taken it personally and considered it hurtful.

I think pw BPD or BPD traits see rejection in little things, even non intended things. What I didn't realize was that this is how my H interpreted the cyclic and normal variations in female interest, as rejection. He didn't seem to have object constancy, or any kind of memory ( when dysregulating) of sex before. In the moment, it was "we NEVER have sex" even if we had it two days ago and then, if we never had sex, then we'd never have it again.

To me, what was a day of having PMS, up all night with a kiddo, was one day, and well tomorrow would be better. I didn't deprive him of sex, but one day would be perceived as a catastrophic to him.


It is good that you are here, learning the lessons and taking steps to help with this, as well as learning not to take it personally.

[Leena]

I am so glad someone is taking about this.

My problem I think is my uBPDh has said so many nasty things over the 12 yrs of our relationship I have very little desire left for him. He always says in the heat of an argument after saying something 'I want you to remember this if we ever have sex again'. But then next time we have sex 'you know I fancy you so much, I don't mean the things I say'.

SO WHY SAY THEM... .I want to scream.

My youngest is 10 months old, I am about to finish breast feeding. So all that has hampered my sex drive anyway. But I hardly feel like making the effort anymore. Which I know is not going to help, so I try to consciously make time for sex even though I don't feel like it because I hope it will help and maybe my sex drive will return.

But none of that gets recognised, it is all part of my job... .

[RedPixie]

i'd really love to hear from more of you, especially women with male B/N/PD SO's


FF - yeah i'm sure he'd love that! -  The point I'm making is that at those times I don't want to and shouldn't have to do that.  I give my husband head every time we make love, this morning he came in my mouth! (sorry TMI)

believe me he gets plenty! his perception of our sex life seems so distorted... .(I think it's pretty active and adventurous - he thinks its seldom and i'm always in control of when and how it happens)

((thanks for the vote of confidence, I do hope I learn the lessons able to save my marriage ))


what I want, is to be able to say i'm not in the mood / I don't want to, or i'm too busy without it being a personal insult to him. I want him to understand I am an individual with ups and downs and not an object.

If he didn't always pursue I might be inclined to do more... .

In our "arguments" / disagreements about sex he often battles with me soo hard and then I find he does take on some of what I say for a couple of days even if he never agreed to . . .  then forgets again... .I give praise and thanks but as soon as he has 2 -3 days without sex he forgets that I love him, desire him and that of course I will be all over him again tomorrow... .

I find it so hard when I say i'm not up for it and he withdraws sometimes huffs , in bed if I push off his roving hands I don't get cuddles I get his back. (sometimes I spoon him and hold him when he gets like this as I can sense he feels rejected and I feel sorry for him)

I just want it to be ok, not to be taken so personally.

i'd just love him to be able to say - no worries my love there is always tomorrow... .

I feel so guilty when he's hurting at being turned down.


Pixie

[formflier]

 

https://youtu.be/Ep2MAx95m20


This video addresses the "attitude" that I believe is helpful. 

The point I am making... .and I believe the video is making... .is to be obvious about doing it when you don't want to.  To be obvious about meeting your partners desires when they conflict with your own.

That opens the door to a conversation about your desires (sexual and non-sexual).

Just like the lady in the video said... .anger needs to be addressed regardless.  Threats... .all of that.

That will take a combination of love and strong boundaries. 

FF

[Notwendy]

I found it hard to believe that my H didn't seem to have a memory when it came to sex.

I think, in the moment, they are flooded with "rejection" emotion. Also black and white thinking. No sex today means NEVER, even if sex was yesterday.

As to your description of your "activities" that was the cause of a major painting me black. You see, I had a lot of nausea when I was pregnant with our children, but it only lasted the first couple of months. I assumed it was understandable that a certain *activity* was not going to happen if your wife is puking in the toilet. In my mind, this was a temporary situation- not representative of our entire married life together. I assumed he would know that if he got *that* before, then he would likely have *that* after the nausea of pregnancy subsided. To him though, it was all a "NEVER"- and he became very angry at that. To me, not knowing what was happening, I found my H becoming angry and cruel at a time I needed him to be caring. I was carrying our child.

If I had a wish, it would be that I knew then what I knew now, that I knew the lessons here and enough to not take it personally. I wish that I had understood the drama triangle- that at the time, my H saw himself as the victim of sexual neglect on my part, even if the situation had nothing to do with rejecting him.

I will say that our relationship is better having learned more and worked on myself. I think you are fortunate to have learned this at this stage.

[Anise]

I can say that sex with my uBPDh is very difficult at best.  He has ED, due to what I suspect is projecting his mother onto me, which gets in the way of anything physical as it causes an anxiety cycle for him, no matter how gentle/understanding/patient I am.  But then he will revise history on top of things as well.

He spent the first year of our marriage rejecting me, preferring TV/ipad games.  So I gave up asking him.  Now, in his head it's my fault we don't have sex because I don't approach him anymore, and "it's all on him".

We recently spent a nice vacation in France. We were not intimate once.  He claimed afterwards, "well I'm not going to chase you across the bed!"  These are not California King beds they have there, more like full size or queen size.

The other night he offered to be intimate with me, which I agreed to.  We cuddled, plumbing didn't work, so I said, "well we can try again tomorrow".  He said the next day that we didn't have sex because I "wasn't into it".

I wish I could say we are an example of things going well, but it's just not.  He will always have an excuse for why he doesn't need to deal with the issue, so it just doesn't happen.  But if I get angry because he's wasting my fertility and make a crack that I should just wait for a stork to show up, you would think I killed his family.  He will claim he wants kids though.

Even when things were going well, it's always in getting his needs met. The positions and activities he likes. If I ask for it often enough he will sometimes do something for me, but it never lasts very long.

As far as romance goes, I mentioned strewing rose petals on the bed as a joke and he completely freaked out and started worrying about how to keep the bedroom clean.

[RedPixie]

Thanks i appreciate your replies.

FF - are you saying - go after him when I'm in the 10 days I'm not interested?  I don't understand - I'm not into it so isn't he going to think I'm being fake?  "I have to want it" for him to feel up to it too... .i would find it difficult pretending to desire him when i have no desire at all...  

great vid.

got it!


I have tried this too when I can sense the pressure building, sometimes if I pretend I want it,  its fine, but i'm human (I will try harder) he demanded that he didn't want me if I wasn't "feeling it" I guess this is where the BPD comes in.

maybe the narcissist in him can't bear the perceived thought that I don't want HIM all the time... .rather than it having nothing to do with him the reason for me not wanting IT. (although if we argue and he rages, breaks stuff, injures me accidently and causes me to be scared and anxious... .it takes me a few days to "want him" ! he's always sorry.)

he says all the time - aren't I irresistible?

thanks for sharing the vid - although I did feel quite defensive at first / I don't believe that we have a sex starved marriage. but I guess his disorder means, he thinks we do... .

There are other factors in play - last summer he had a sexual encounter (and a deep depression since we lost our twin boys 24.12.2011) which after a short period of remorse he was moody, disagreeable, critical, petulant. I was heart broken and felt so guilty and insecure, and all he could do was focus on himself saying my issues with his behaviour were my problem, if I didn't like it, I didn't like him... .and so on.

and then every now and then he says - "I wish I was dead" ... .or "that would be a good way to die"

It hurts me that he doesn't remember making love 6 times in the last 2 weeks when he says we have sex twice a month he's remembering the worst times / when he's been so moody and destructive that I haven't wanted to come near him... .its all distorted to suit how he feels... .

@NotWendy  *that*    yeah not the best activity with nausea for sure / it must have been hard not having him present for you  . i'm learning lots here ! thanks for sharing.

@FF - how do you have the time and patience to be so helpful! I've been reading all the boards and you certainly are very proactive in your questions and comments THANK YOU !

ps - i'm in the UK

[RedPixie]

I can say that sex with my uBPDh is very difficult at best.  He has ED, due to what I suspect is projecting his mother onto me, which gets in the way of anything physical as it causes an anxiety cycle for him, no matter how gentle/understanding/patient I am.  But then he will revise history on top of things as well.

He spent the first year of our marriage rejecting me, preferring TV/ipad games.  So I gave up asking him.  Now, in his head it's my fault we don't have sex because I don't approach him anymore, and "it's all on him".

We recently spent a nice vacation in France. We were not intimate once.  He claimed afterwards, "well I'm not going to chase you across the bed!"  These are not California King beds they have there, more like full size or queen size.

The other night he offered to be intimate with me, which I agreed to.  We cuddled, plumbing didn't work, so I said, "well we can try again tomorrow".  He said the next day that we didn't have sex because I "wasn't into it".

I wish I could say we are an example of things going well, but it's just not.  He will always have an excuse for why he doesn't need to deal with the issue, so it just doesn't happen.  But if I get angry because he's wasting my fertility and make a crack that I should just wait for a stork to show up, you would think I killed his family.  He will claim he wants kids though.

Even when things were going well, it's always in getting his needs met. The positions and activities he likes. If I ask for it often enough he will sometimes do something for me, but it never lasts very long.

As far as romance goes, I mentioned strewing rose petals on the bed as a joke and he completely freaked out and started worrying about how to keep the bedroom clean.

Oh how awful! I feel humled by that x x

I remember trying to get pregnant - the sex is kinda important! that is so difficult when you don't feel connected.

ED?

[formflier]

 but I guess his disorder means, he thinks we do... ..

.

Change this to feels... .

"Nons" generally think things... .pwBPD usually feel things.

How does this apply here... .in situations where you are tired and don't want to have sex with him... .validation may work.

Or possibly SET... with the T being that you will make him holler tomorrow night... .but tonight you have a headache (or whatever).

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

Listen... .nothing in here means that anyone has lost complete control over their bodies and when they have sex.  That is not healthy.

Especially in notwendy's situation... pregnant and puking.  I think the lady in the video would jerk a knot in him quick.  

Plus... her reference at the start of the video... .to "some extreme issues" or high or low sex desires (or however she worded it)... .probably apply to many BPD r/s.

Still... .the point is... .have sex with your mate... .lots of it.  I look at it like validation... it's sort of the oil that smooths things out.

FF

[formflier]

ED?

Erectile dysfunction...

[Anise]

ED -> Erectile Dysfunction

At first we thought it was a side effect of some medication he was taking at the time(could still have been for all I know), but ever since it started it has been something we need to work with.  He is not on the medication anymore, so at this point I think it is more of his projection of his mother onto me, and any anxiety cycle he has in his head, more than anything else.

Edit: to clarify his medicine use

[ArleighBurke]

I've gotta chime in.

I'm a non-BPD (male) 40yrs old and it's only in the last few years *I* havn't taken a no as rejection.

Like your husband, I get "in the mood" and want to start touching. When wife says no, not yet, let's talk, let's cuddle, ANYTHING - it feels like rejection. And if I don't get sex tonight it FEELS like I "never" get any.

I started logging when we did have sex - just to show me that it certainly WAS regular. And it was! But every rejection stung. It's only been the past few years that I have "matured?" to the point of being able to take a no non-personally - knowing that in a few more night's it'll be on again.

That's coming from a non-BPD who supposedly can manage his emotions. I can't imagine what it would feel like for a BPD... .

Perhaps you can frame a "no" as a "yes tomorrow night we're going to... ." and be descriptive. Or frame a "I'm not ready yet" as "we will have sex tonight, but first I want to... .".   The other thing I'd love is some sort of affection/attention given to me, while your are getting ready. So if you want to chat for a while to connect, rubbing my chest or upper thigh or something sexual "keeps" me in the mood - and I'm happy to wait. But I know my wife says she can't do that - because if she's not yet in the mood then those things are also wrong.

Hope some of this helps.

[C.Stein]

I'll chime in to.

For me it is more than just sex, at least at this point in my life it is.  I can get myself off, I didn't need my ex to do it for me.  What I wanted with her was the intimate and emotional connection of making love.  The more she hurt me emotionally the less interested I was in being physical.  There were even a couple of times when I had a hard time getting it up (which is usually never a problem) due to my damaged emotions at the time.   This is something I am sure she took personally, which in some ways she should have.  It didn't have anything to do with not loving her or being attracted to her physically, but the emotional pain kept me from wanting to be with her because it felt more like a performance than making love.

[Notwendy]

I can understand my H feeling rejected if that is an expected response, but I thought it was so obvious at the time that I was temporarily not up to it and wished he understood the temporary part.

However, at the time, he decided to retaliate and reject me. I was painted black- and at a time when I was either pregnant or raising small children.

I didn't understand it at the time. To counteract the "Never" and the rages that were upsetting the kids, I decided to just "do it" whenever he wanted just to get some peace and quiet in the home and also some sleep. I was up a lot at night with the kids. So, in the evening, I would think "well, we can fight about this, or I can just do it and get to sleep".

I don't have an issue with one spouse "taking it for the team" once in a while as part of harmony in the relationship. However, this wan't a team. It was just about keeping the peace at the moment. I suppose it was better than the alternative- fighting at night at the time.

I can honestly say that I did not deprive him- ever. He got sex, perhaps not every single time he wanted it, but there was not a significant lag in it. It hurt to be accused of "never" no matter what.

I eventually got cynical about it, like what was the point, he wasn't going to remember it anyway. He feels insulted when I say this, but really, I wish it was memorable.

This wrecked havoc on my emotions. I don't recommend it. Sex is good between two consenting people. This was co-dependent sex, just to keep the peace.

[RedPixie]

Thank you so much for sharing with me.

I was wondering if others with BPDso experienced the same thing or whether it had nothing to do with the Bpd...


Thanks for your insights ArleighBurke

Its not that i don't want the sex... .i do, its great and love it.

Its on these yellow days I'm more soft, sensitive and need intimacy, romance and connection to "get me aroused" before I'm ready...   its these days he struggles sometimes

Sometimes he's fine and understands so i guess its not all bad. I just have to be ok with saying no and not feeling guilty for it. I know the reality of the situation /

Your posts have all made me realise there are a lot worse positions to be in... .  so while i am sorry for you NotWendy & Anise, i am grateful for my pwBPD being quite a bit more sensitive than you SO's ... ED must be so difficult to cope with / mother fantasies - wow. Strength to you.

A reality check. Thanks

I'd still love to hear more thoughts from anyone who's not too shy.

Its such an important part of our relationships with our pwBPD.


X x

Pixie

[formflier]

 

Sometimes it's hard to figure out where "maleness" ends and "BPDish" stuff starts.  I get it... there is not set answer.

I probably wouldn't have described a no as "stinging" in my younger years... .because we had lots of sex.  I also wouldn't say I was a fan of it though.

Hormones:  I'm in my 40s and I can tell things have calmed down a bit for me.  I can actually pay attention to what is going on, vice be overwhelmed with "stimulus"      

I'm quite sure I wasn't aware, interested or cared  (ok cared might be a bit strong... ) what was going on with my wife because i was so overwhelmed by all the good feelings. 

Somewhere towards my late 30s and certainly into my 40s I was able to slow down some, pay attention and focus on the "results" of what I was doing to her... .vice what was "happening" to me.

Really hope this makes sense.

Because I could see this (what I was like in my 20s) looking uncaring or demanding.  I was appreciative after... .and before things go started... .but was the engine got revving... .not much interest in waiting... .or I was anxious while waiting.

FF

[AsGoodAsItGets]

The calander bluh, ugh.  Look i love my girlfriend, and respect her sexual needs if a calander was part of that fine, but i know in the past short relationship i didnt cate what my ex was communicating because i didnt love her, and since i was getting my immideate secal need meet or my love need met, will the relationship fell apart once sje was ftistrated enough.  Not exactly how a BPD thinks but they only feel a need in the moment, so its situational thinking and feeling for them.  Dont take it personally.  Good luck.

[Notwendy]

I think the feelings are understandable- disappointment, feeling rejected when there is a no, or the partner isn't immediately warmed up. Perhaps some of this is the difference between how someone responds to emotional or visual stimuli.

For instance, a romantic movie scene with all kinds of lovey -dovey sweet stuff has me thinking "I would love that" while perhaps the sight of a naked person for someone else would be enough to say "let's go!".

That was a difference between us. I think because my H was visual, he assumed I was too. One area of disconnect was that he didn't help much with the house and kids. Fair enough, as he was the chief wage earner, but the way things worked was like this. He would come home from work, want to relax and recharge. I would fix dinner, feed anyone who needed help, clean up dinner, bath kids, put kids to bed ( he would help some with this by reading a bedtime story), then straighten up a bit. Then, when I was finished, exhausted, I'd walk into the bedroom to find "recharged" hubby had been waiting for me to get there, and he was "ready to go". I wanted some peace and quiet at that point.

This could be a typical scene, except that trying to ask for something I needed- if he even helped with clean up, or put the kids to be so I could perhaps relax for a few minutes. If we had any romantic time together first, if he understood that just because he was "ready to go" that didn't mean I was at a moment's notice. It was not that this was unusual but that discussion of this led to circular arguments, raging over it. Because I felt that I had no way to change this for the better for both of us, and I wanted peace in the home, I basically just did sex as another function on the way to what I needed: sleep. But again, doing this took out any emotional pleasure I might have from it.

So yes, if there is potential to help this- do it now. I didn't know any better.

[Cat Familiar]

I'll echo Notwendy's comments about feeling overwhelmed, unsupported, and expected to be a ready sex partner. That was my experience in my first marriage. Though we didn't have kids, we had a business together and he frequently would have a BPDish fit and walk out on our work while I'd dutifully finish my responsibilities and his. This built up a lot of anger with me, added to that was the infidelity, violence and financial irresponsibility.

So did I want to f*@k him? NO! I was so angry.

Then he'd get annoyed that I NEVER did it with him and he'd start keeping track on the calendar. It got to the point where I'd just say, OK, just do it. It was like having to wash a sink full of dishes or take out the garbage--just a chore that was necessary but somewhat unpleasant.

And I used to be a very sexual woman.

That part of me got re-ignited several years later when I got together with my second BPD husband. Then, the drinking and prescription drug use, the BPD behavior (much less impactful than the first husband, but still disturbing), and menopause all conspired to diminish my interest to the point of zero most of the time.

Some of the things I've witnessed from this husband--like hitting himself in the head during a dysregulation and saying, "Is this what you want? You hate me. You just want me dead." --I really don't know how I could ever be sexually attracted to someone who has behaved like that. Thankfully it's been some time since one of those scenes has happened, but still, it completely destroyed my feelings of attraction toward him.

[formflier]

Some of the things I've witnessed from this husband--like hitting himself in the head during a dysregulation and saying, "Is this what you want? You hate me. You just want me dead." --I really don't know how I could ever be sexually attracted to someone who has behaved like that. Thankfully it's been some time since one of those scenes has happened, but still, it completely destroyed my feelings of attraction toward him.

This sort of makes the point that when they dysregulate... .best option is to no longer be around.

Ignorance is bliss... .in many cases where BPD is involved.

FF

[RedPixie]

Some of the things I've witnessed from this husband--like hitting himself in the head during a dysregulation and saying, "Is this what you want? You hate me. You just want me dead." --I really don't know how I could ever be sexually attracted to someone who has behaved like that. Thankfully it's been some time since one of those scenes has happened, but still, it completely destroyed my feelings of attraction toward him.

mine does this - bashing his head / you hate me / I can't be what you want / I wish I was dead... .

He doesn't want "IT" - if  he can tell i'm not 100% into it.  but then gets upset that i'm not all over him with desire all the time.

i'm not up to it every night  - I want the love making to be memorable - I don't think I should have to pretend/fake arousal because his ego/pride needs me to , we have plenty for me to not have to do this.

should I be faking cheeriness/ arousal/ hiding my hurt and frustrated feelings all the time

I hope that over the next few weeks things will improve - we haven't had any Raging since Halloween, nearly 2 weeks ago - hopefully with less arguments will come more opportunities for me to get "romance"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

what I described as romance to him in an e mail last month... .:

Romance , intimacy and connection:

Love notes, a picked flower, a coffee in bed, a date, quality time, no TV, a dance, a bath, a walk, a talk about dreams, candles, something fun, surprises, silly gifts…

Things I love

When you want to initiate intimacy with me:

1st -  Loving eyes, soft kisses, gentle touches and nice words “tell me sweet things”

I love to have my neck kissed and face touched before my breasts are ready.

I sometimes like things to be very slow, at first strokes through my clothes and knickers and only diving in when I’m pushing myself into you. 

These things will make me feel connected and much more turned on and eager to make love


When I’m premenstrual

I want to feel loved, cherished stroked and kissed in a loving non sexual caring way

I don’t want to have to turn you down or away, I want to feel accepted as a woman that has a cycle.

If you want a blow job follow the 1st line and then ask for one / say please

it would be my pleasure to please you


When I seem to be frisky and persuing you: { ovulation times )

If you wanted you could be rough and talk dirty to me. I like naughty sex when I’m frisky.

I like to be spanked and sexed in all manner of places

I like to be told what to do, it turns me on.

x x x

--------------------------------------------

I honestly thought the calendar and these suggestions would work last month, but he's dyslexic he finds it so hard to read that he dreads e mails from me. I realise now that they were too long and too many requests...

I wonder if his dyslexia has anything to do with his need to prove himself right and clever all the time... .

if I vocalise any of this it sets off his insecurities.

x x

[Grey Kitty]

This happens on a weekly basis apart from my green days when I'm pretty receptive / he's a great lover and a sexy man. It isn't about him. Its about my needs.

I'm going to call BS, on saying it isn't about him. There is something big hidden in this which is 100% about him.

He doesn't CARE about your needs, or is INCAPABLE of meeting them. Doesn't really matter. What does matter is that HE ISN'T MEETING YOUR NEEDS FOR PLEASURABLE SEX.

From what you are saying, your needs are different throughout your cycle, and he is only failing to meet them during part of it. That doesn't change his failure.

This is obviously a serious problem.

It is complicated by our culture which makes talking about sex difficult, and further complicated by his being a pwBPD and unable to hear criticism without dysregulating.

There is one part that I've got very strong feelings about, and don't think there is any room to compromise on this boundary issue--Your body is yours, and any sex (involving you) must be consensual. If you don't want to do it, you are not required to do it. You may withhold your consent for sex for any time for any reason. You may do it for no reason at all, and you are not required to offer any reason. No means no. In addition, a lack of a clear (even if non-verbal) YES on your part should mean no.

As I said, I feel very strongly about this--you always have the right to say no, and do not even need a reason.

So hold that thought in your head at the same time you consider this:

FF - are you saying - go after him when I'm in the 10 days I'm not interested?  I don't understand - I'm not into it so isn't he going to think I'm being fake?  "I have to want it" for him to feel up to it too... .i would find it difficult pretending to desire him when i have no desire at all...  

If you feel forced sex with him when you aren't feeling desire, it will build resentment, and you will feel violated. If you say "yes" because you are afraid of the consequences of saying no, that isn't good or healthy.

If you choose to have sex with him--because you want to improve your relationship with him, even when you aren't feeling the desire, it is completely different. (And easier if you know that the is likely to show up later.) If you say yes out of generosity and love instead of fear, it is good and healthy.

And so far, everything I've said here (like the TED Talk) applies to any relationship.

Now we have to add BPD/NPD traits, dysregulations, etc. into the mix, and you need better tools to communicate on top of understanding all this.

[Cat Familiar]

I don't know, Pixie, but I think that for both men and men with BPD, sometimes if we tell them what we want, it becomes too much of a thinking process rather than just allowing nature to take its course.

I'm sure that some men would really appreciate an explanation of women's mysterious mood cycles and how to best approach us. But in my experience, it's been received as "OK, now you're telling me to jump through hoops... ."

Men weigh in on this?

I'm so out of practice sexually and it really surprises me because I was so into it as a younger woman. I've just experienced so much damage from my first husband being an unrelenting cheater and now being so disappointed that my current husband is so not emotionally healthy. He really had me fooled for a number of years. I thought I finally had a well-adjusted partner.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey Kitty, your wisdom and understanding make you a very sexy man. I hope you find a wonderful woman to rock your world. 

[C.Stein]

I'm sure that some men would really appreciate an explanation of women's mysterious mood cycles and how to best approach us. But in my experience, it's been received as "OK, now you're telling me to jump through hoops... ."

Men weigh in on this?

For me personally, I want openness and honesty in all aspects of the relationship.  With respect to physical needs being met, it is difficult to know what your partner wants/needs and what they like/don't like if they don't tell you.  So in that respect I want and encourage my partners to let me know how to satisfy them.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Men weigh in on this?

I love to know this kind of information... .I can see how a pwBPD can twist it.  But I would still send it... .

OK... .by and large... .sex has been an area that has not been affected "too bad" by BPD stuff.  My wife and and I have a lot of sex... .umm... we have 8 kids... .all our stuff seems to work pretty good.


This is an area where our religious outlook (conservative Christian) matches up.  Her body is mine... .mine is hers.

The basic thinking (analogy) is that if I'm eating prime rib at home... .and a lot of it... .chances that I would want to eat plain old hamburger (some other woman) while not at home... .very low.  (really hope people get that analogy... .not sure I said it right... )

That is one of the reasons the accusations were so maddening to me... .I mean... .when would I have the time or energy for another woman.

Have there been times when we each "did it" for the other... and weren't into it.  Absolutely.  But I'm glad I did... .and I believe my wife would say the same (when not dysregulated).

Really... .to me... it comes down to outlook.  If the purpose of having sex is to get your needs met... .I think... .there is bound to be disappointment.

If the purpose of having sex is to give pleasure and a blessing to your partner... .and both partners are thinking that way... .wowser... .you can have some mind blowing stuff happen.

Have there been times when I went after her because I was horny and wanted some... .sure thing... .

But when I think about the times something "mindblowing" happened... .in all honesty... it kinda snuck up. on me when my goal was to do something nice for her.

My wife's love language is touch.  So... .pretty much... .I can give her a massage and then whatever I want to happen... happens.

Do I sometimes give her "just" a massage and leave it at that... .yep... .not often... but I do.

One area that can be a bit tricky is if I should ask... .or if I should start doing stuff and wait for her to complain, ask for something... whatever.  This can be especially true when hormones are settling out after pregnancy and breastfeeding.

Sometimes... .she really likes to be asked (does this feel good... that feel good... what do you want)... .other times she wants me to hush and do my thing.  I can usually tell pretty quickly... .and work through it.

Anyway... .long winded way to say... .ladies... put the information out there... .again and again.  If you can focus on their needs... .I think chances are higher of your needs getting met.

I understand there are some extreme cases (stories) on here... .

I can remember my wife telling me that she wanted to take care of me but was sore from breastfeeding... tired... whatever.  I would try to do something nice for her (acts of service guy... ) and leave her alone.  She seemed to really appreciate that.  

Anyway... .that's my story... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I don't know, Pixie, but I think that for both men and men with BPD, sometimes if we tell them what we want, it becomes too much of a thinking process rather than just allowing nature to take its course.

I'm sure that some men would really appreciate an explanation of women's mysterious mood cycles and how to best approach us. But in my experience, it's been received as "OK, now you're telling me to jump through hoops... ."

Men weigh in on this?

As an American, I'm living in a culture with some really toxic ideas about sex. (Stuff that is bad for both men and women, even if women are the primary 'target' of most of it.) Those attitudes mess things up. So does having sex education mostly delegated to porn on the internet. <RANT> I do watch porn, and the worst part is how often the women don't even look like they are even doing a very good job of faking enjoying themselves, and how often the activities as shown don't closely match anything that I've experienced as pleasurable for the women I've had sex with! Yes, I know it is a performance, I expect there to be faking but really? Can't you at least fake WELL?</END RANT>

So it is VERY easy to feel like anything going 'wrong' with sex is my fault, that I'm doing it wrong, that I'm a failure, unattractive, inadequate, etc., etc., etc. Culturally, as a man, I'm sent off without any instruction manual, and told I'm a failure when I don't know how things work.

Cat, you speak of how your sex drive has tanked from the abuse you experienced around sex in your first marriage, plus problems in your second.

Most likely, your husband (and Pixie's for that matter) have had prior relationships with abusive behavior around sex that was just as toxic to them.

So while guys like FF (and me!) really want to know how to make the woman in our life ecstatic, lots of guys have a huge inability to hear anything other than how inadequate they are at sex... .and that is really bad even without something like BPD thrown into the mix!

I recently had a single experience with no strings attached sex, after decades with only two different partners. With my wife, the sex was good, but there was some really hurtful rejection mixed in there, with the other lover, the toxic part wasn't there at all.

Thinking about that one encounter later, I realized something truly amazing (and also depressing!) I felt like that one encounter was the only time in my life that somebody had been truly focused on satisfying MY needs, and I was able to simply accept and enjoy that. [And yes, there also is the issue of reciprocating that focus on my partner. I later realized I didn't quite live up to that in this encounter. Still... .there is need for sex fully focused on what you receive, AND sex fully focused on what you give. Taking turns sounds good, and I hope the magic of doing both at once is possible as well upon occasion]

In contrast, my marriage was more like the first decade of my wife trying to give me what she thought I wanted, without us being able to communicate that [I share blame with her there], and the second decade of her demanding what she wanted, in "repayment" for all she had sacrificed in the first decade. Honestly, that is an overly bleak picture--Much of the sex in my marriage was good, it just never made it to its full potential.

[formflier]

 

So... .I'm wondering if there is a SET format... .that can be switched around for sex.

Where the T is what you want (you being the woman... or the man... .but in this thread a woman) and the SE parts focus on accepting... .vice rejecting.

Maybe praise gets tossed in there... .my what a big... .(fill in blanks... )

I think GK is onto something here.  Somehow we have the turn the REJECTION into a rejection (or softer still... .later)... .so that they have a chance to hear what you want.

Perhaps the toxicity and BPDish stuff overwhelms a guys natural desire to get laid... .and maybe that's why I have such a hard time understanding how these husbands don't get it...

From a guys point of view... .figuring out what to do in order to get laid is a big deal... .not the kind of thing you mess up.

I guess I can understand a bad reaction if they perceive getting laid is being "taken" from them... .  maybe that does explain it some.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

From a guys point of view... .figuring out what to do in order to get laid is a big deal... .not the kind of thing you mess up.

No, it is a lot more dangerous than that. It isn't the kind of thing you can AFFORD to mess up. And thus so devastating to realize that you are... .and with black and white thinking, ALWAYS WILL FAIL HORRIBLY AT IT.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, guys. This gives me an insight into some areas I haven't understood about the male psyche. In particular: Most likely, your husband (and Pixie's for that matter) have had prior relationships with abusive behavior around sex that was just as toxic to them.

I watched that video and what the woman said about sexually anorexic marriages really made sense. It's a slippery slope (no pun intended) but "faking it until you make it" in the sexual arena can have some potentially bad outcomes too.

If you're furious with your partner for a history of bad behavior, as I was with my first husband, sex is not something that can build a bridge and further a damaged relationship. All it did for me was to make me angrier, which I hid out of fear due to his violent tendencies.

It's really not fair that I don't have a clean slate regarding BPD behavior now with my second husband. What I mean by that is that I witnessed so much horrific behavior from the first one that just seeing anger and irrationality from my current husband, I start thinking, "Oh, no. Here we go again." It's really not fair. The first one was a sociopath too, and this one is a really good person.

I'm so grateful for this forum and for all of you who so generously contribute your time, insight, wisdom and experience. Thank you. 

[formflier]

 

What I'm hearing from Cat Familiar... .that was so damaging was that she was not able to be honest with her first husband about her feelings... .she was fearful (with good reason) of doing that.

I think that this further shows that "stuffing feelings"... .especially over the long term... is bad stuff.

FF

[Notwendy]

So it is VERY easy to feel like anything going 'wrong' with sex is my fault, that I'm doing it wrong, that I'm a failure, unattractive, inadequate, etc., etc., etc. Culturally, as a man, I'm sent off without any instruction manual, and told I'm a failure when I don't know how things work.

That sounds like my H!




Cat, you speak of how your sex drive has tanked from the abuse you experienced around sex in your first marriage, plus problems in your second.

.

Cat can, and I can too. I think people's sexuality is on a spectrum as well. In college, I had female friends who liked the hook up. Sex for just sex was OK with them. I don't judge them, but it isn't me. My desire is emotionally driven. I don't want variety. I wanted one man, and happily ever after.

This didn't quite happen as I wished as before I met my H, I did fall in love, and get my feelings hurt when things didn't work out, but to me, any physical enjoyment had to be connected to deep love and commitment. So when I fell in love with my H, that was it, for me, hopefully forever and it has been that way for decades, only him, nobody else,

So, over my entire sexual life, I would say that it was basically shaped by him. When he painted me black, I literally begged him to show me some affection. He even refused to kiss me. He claimed he didn't want emotional sex. He claimed that other women were OK with that so there must have been something wrong with me. All these things were said during dysregulations, so I don't know if he really meant them or was just raging and said them to hurt me. I didn't know what was going on, so I took them to heart. It brought me back to my college days when it felt like I was one of the only students who didn't want to hook up. I probably was not the only one, but it seemed as if everyone was doing that.

I wanted to make him happy. I wanted to please my husband. So I became his hook up girl, but once sex became disconnected from me, my emotions, my self, it didn't feel good to me. In fact, just the opposite. It hurt emotionally. I wanted him to be affectionate and loving to me, but it seemed he was angry. If he felt rejected he would "pay me back" by rejecting me.

I hated doing it but I knew our relationship would have been much worse had I not.

The reason I have hope for the relationship is that he did realize the effect on me, and has tried to turn things around. Yes, being over 40 helps as I think men do become more aware of the emotional aspect of sex once those hormones turn down a bit. However, the same thing happens with me. With less hormones, emotions play an even larger role. Now, with less of them, I have the emotional baggage from the years when sex was just one more chore before going to sleep, as Cat said. Put kids to bed,do dishes,  take out trash, feed cat,  *do* husband, put on pajamas, wash face, brush teeth... .Even though I think the relationship is better, these experiences shape my view of what sex is. I really wish I had experienced sex as something between two people who were emotionally close.

I would also fear any attraction to anyone else. I think we are wired to attract  and be attracted to people who match our emotional issues, and I think I would rather work on the relationship I have than wonder about another person.

[Grey Kitty]

I watched that video and what the woman said about sexually anorexic marriages really made sense. It's a slippery slope (no pun intended) but "faking it until you make it" in the sexual arena can have some potentially bad outcomes too.

I'm a big fan of mindfullness, and if you are a woman considering that kind of "fake it till you make it" approach, please be mindful of your own feelings when you do this. When you feel generous and truly want him to have a good experience, even if it may be well ... .average sex for you, or even a chore like doing the dishes. You don't chose to wash the dishes because you enjoy washing dishes either. You enjoy having clean dishes in your kitchen. You are doing very good and amazing work when you come to it from a spirit of generosity.

If you do it out of fear of the consequences of saying no, if you feel you have no choice, or if you are trying to manipulate him with it... .it will be better for you and your marriage if you don't do it. That is the slippery slope.

I'd also note that this video (and most relationship/sex advice) is targeted to an audience of couples that consist of two more-or-less healthy, functional individuals.

The relationships here have one pwBPD/NPD, and one non- who (generally) arrives here very codependent. A majority of these relationships are verbally/emotionally abusive, or at least had been abusive before it was stopped.

Sex/relationship advice for 'normal' couples usually requires some adjustment to cover this. Just like marriage counseling in these relationships is often useless or worse unless the MC understands the BPD/Abusive dynamic and makes adjustments for it. Please remember that when you consider this kind of advice.

[formflier]

 

The biggest adjustment I can think of that will need to be made is that of inequality and proper expectations.

I doubt any of us here would ever think true 50/50 is possible in a r/s with our pwBPD.

So... someone here that is really "giving" to their pwBPD would probably be wise to not expect to see an equal amount coming back.

What I would hope for is effort and results... .something the women could see to verify that their wishes were being met more than they were before the big effort was made to show their BPD hubbies that they are really "taking care" of them.

FF

[RedPixie]

A couple of responses to your posts

FF- I'm not going into it TO get my needs met.

I often take a giving role... .(what I'm saying is that on my yellow days i can't do this if my emotional bank is empty!)

I'd like to be able to say No or I'm not ready yet or tomorrow without it being such a drama... .such a personal rejection no matter how much i sugar coat it.

GK - consensual YES that's it, if i don't want it and people suggest i do it anyway / that feels wrong/  He is a very attentive lover and once we get past first base - its all bliss as far as my needs... .its my emotional needs that aren't being met which is leading me to have a low desire... .(once hes been a little slower and loving I'm there)

My resentment of his inconsistency and childish ways are not helping, I'm sure.

I feel huge injustice all the time - i guess thats victim speak "its not fair" ... .

He complains corrects and criticizes all the time

If i have a momentary lapse and sigh coz he made a mess with the dogs where i just spent the afternoon cleaning and he says... .its fine I'll clean it again!

Now that's not my point ... .the point is i feel like i wasted my time cleaning - he's just told me my feelings don't matter because he will tidy up again. My feelings are never valid and i feel so down pretending that its fine to not have a confrontation. ...

But he needs constant attention and i have to validate every feeling he has!

What I'm asking over and over again is how do you get past these feelings of injustice without huge resentment.

And how do i reject without rejecting

There is much more to this... .

If i think he's initiating and i say something like ... I'm not quite feeling it right now how about we spend some time snuggling first... .he'll sometimes get super defensive and say he wasn't trying anything! why am i always on guard.

I try to explain that when he touches my erogenous zones i assume he is initiating... .ive asked that if he isn't initiating that he not "go there" as its confusing. ... then he gets anmoyed that I'm always telling him "how what why and when" and gets angry that he can't just be however he wants with me... .

When he's having a needy episode he is much more able to be sensitive to my body language and eyes etc which he doesn't really get the rest if the time. If i squirm or move his hand direct his head etc it all makes him feel "he's doing it wrong" / rather than/  "this is great she's directing me"

He never had an abusive partner (he was 22 when we got together and had only had 1 other steady girlfriend age14-19 lots of 1 nighters)

His mother has mental health problems and is a hoarder his father left at age 10 he has dyslexia . His family are wonderful. They love me!. (He has 3siblings from their parents joining and each of his parents have children with other partners 7 total!

He is the life Nd soul of the party when we are socialising! 

Then just no end of complaining when we are alone... .


Sorry i realise I've rambled a bit...

I'm still reading the lessons over and over and while the arguments are much less, this issue is so strong for us.

We are young 36/38 no kids  

[Grey Kitty]

Now that's not my point ... .the point is i feel like i wasted my time cleaning - he's just told me my feelings don't matter because he will tidy up again. My feelings are never valid and i feel so down pretending that its fine to not have a confrontation. ...

But he needs constant attention and i have to validate every feeling he has!

What I'm asking over and over again is how do you get past these feelings of injustice without huge resentment.

And how do i reject without rejecting

BINGO! You got two very important questions here. I'm not sure you will like the answers, but here the are:

Q1: How do you get past the feelings of injustice without resentment?

A1: You don't get past feelings. They are real, and the best you can do is let yourself feel them. If you try to stuff the feelings, they will just get louder and more insistent next time they pop up.

Q2: How do you reject without rejecting?

A2: It isn't possible.

You can be respectful. You can avoid being cruel, mean, nasty, or belittling about it. But no matter how much honey you put on a sh*t sandwich you offer him, it won't taste sweet. He still wants something (sex) with you and you are saying that you won't do that.

A3: (more details for a not-quite-asked question)

Be as brutally honest with yourself about how you feel about his advances/interest at any given time, and how you feel about physical intimacy with somebody who is emotionally distant.

Let yourself feel angry. Let yourself feel disgusted with him or his behavior. Let yourself feel the unfairness. Let yourself feel the violation (if you said "yes" when you didn't want to in the past, and do feel that way). These feelings are very real, but will come and go.

Also let yourself feel love, attraction, desire, etc. for him when you feel that. 

And ask yourself "What is the kindest thing I can do with him right now?" Keeping in mind what you want and how you feel, not in general, but at the exact time you are asking yourself.

Only after that pause, give him your response.

Perhaps you do feel like "taking one for the team". If so, go for it.

Perhaps you just want to get some space from him and not deal with him, and know that if you stay with him right now, you're just going to get more pissed off. Then the kindest thing you can do is tell him that you need some space and take it.

Perhaps you are thinking that you could be interested, and just need some help, and can say "Honey, I'm not feeling ready for that yet. Would you give me a twenty minute back rub, then come back to what you are doing?"

The key to keeping your resentment down is to be mindful of what you feel able to give, and offering only that.

[ArleighBurke]

General Male Weigh in... .

I find hearing about the "type" or "setup" for sex being dependent on the womans cycle very interesting. It's not something I learnt about until a few years back (just after my wife went through menopause!)

I think for men it can be quite confusing - sometimes you want romance and slow, sometimes you want hard and direct. How am I supposed to know when? A good man can possibly 'feel out her mood' and behave accordingly, but I think that knowing where in her cycle she is will help immensely. Interestingly a 'life coaching' site I also subscribe to describes this as well -and recommends keeping track of her cycle.

So yes - knowing that her desires change during the month (and she's just not crazy!) is useful - and perhaps this should be taught at some point. (Not sure how many <20yrs old guys would find it useful, but for later in life... .)