Personal stuff / sex and romance

[C.Stein]

I'm sure that some men would really appreciate an explanation of women's mysterious mood cycles and how to best approach us. But in my experience, it's been received as "OK, now you're telling me to jump through hoops... ."

Men weigh in on this?

For me personally, I want openness and honesty in all aspects of the relationship.  With respect to physical needs being met, it is difficult to know what your partner wants/needs and what they like/don't like if they don't tell you.  So in that respect I want and encourage my partners to let me know how to satisfy them.

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[formflier]

Men weigh in on this?

I love to know this kind of information... .I can see how a pwBPD can twist it.  But I would still send it... .

OK... .by and large... .sex has been an area that has not been affected "too bad" by BPD stuff.  My wife and and I have a lot of sex... .umm... we have 8 kids... .all our stuff seems to work pretty good.


This is an area where our religious outlook (conservative Christian) matches up.  Her body is mine... .mine is hers.

The basic thinking (analogy) is that if I'm eating prime rib at home... .and a lot of it... .chances that I would want to eat plain old hamburger (some other woman) while not at home... .very low.  (really hope people get that analogy... .not sure I said it right... )

That is one of the reasons the accusations were so maddening to me... .I mean... .when would I have the time or energy for another woman.

Have there been times when we each "did it" for the other... and weren't into it.  Absolutely.  But I'm glad I did... .and I believe my wife would say the same (when not dysregulated).

Really... .to me... it comes down to outlook.  If the purpose of having sex is to get your needs met... .I think... .there is bound to be disappointment.

If the purpose of having sex is to give pleasure and a blessing to your partner... .and both partners are thinking that way... .wowser... .you can have some mind blowing stuff happen.

Have there been times when I went after her because I was horny and wanted some... .sure thing... .

But when I think about the times something "mindblowing" happened... .in all honesty... it kinda snuck up. on me when my goal was to do something nice for her.

My wife's love language is touch.  So... .pretty much... .I can give her a massage and then whatever I want to happen... happens.

Do I sometimes give her "just" a massage and leave it at that... .yep... .not often... but I do.

One area that can be a bit tricky is if I should ask... .or if I should start doing stuff and wait for her to complain, ask for something... whatever.  This can be especially true when hormones are settling out after pregnancy and breastfeeding.

Sometimes... .she really likes to be asked (does this feel good... that feel good... what do you want)... .other times she wants me to hush and do my thing.  I can usually tell pretty quickly... .and work through it.

Anyway... .long winded way to say... .ladies... put the information out there... .again and again.  If you can focus on their needs... .I think chances are higher of your needs getting met.

I understand there are some extreme cases (stories) on here... .

I can remember my wife telling me that she wanted to take care of me but was sore from breastfeeding... tired... whatever.  I would try to do something nice for her (acts of service guy... ) and leave her alone.  She seemed to really appreciate that.  

Anyway... .that's my story... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I don't know, Pixie, but I think that for both men and men with BPD, sometimes if we tell them what we want, it becomes too much of a thinking process rather than just allowing nature to take its course.

I'm sure that some men would really appreciate an explanation of women's mysterious mood cycles and how to best approach us. But in my experience, it's been received as "OK, now you're telling me to jump through hoops... ."

Men weigh in on this?

As an American, I'm living in a culture with some really toxic ideas about sex. (Stuff that is bad for both men and women, even if women are the primary 'target' of most of it.) Those attitudes mess things up. So does having sex education mostly delegated to porn on the internet. <RANT> I do watch porn, and the worst part is how often the women don't even look like they are even doing a very good job of faking enjoying themselves, and how often the activities as shown don't closely match anything that I've experienced as pleasurable for the women I've had sex with! Yes, I know it is a performance, I expect there to be faking but really? Can't you at least fake WELL?</END RANT>

So it is VERY easy to feel like anything going 'wrong' with sex is my fault, that I'm doing it wrong, that I'm a failure, unattractive, inadequate, etc., etc., etc. Culturally, as a man, I'm sent off without any instruction manual, and told I'm a failure when I don't know how things work.

Cat, you speak of how your sex drive has tanked from the abuse you experienced around sex in your first marriage, plus problems in your second.

Most likely, your husband (and Pixie's for that matter) have had prior relationships with abusive behavior around sex that was just as toxic to them.

So while guys like FF (and me!) really want to know how to make the woman in our life ecstatic, lots of guys have a huge inability to hear anything other than how inadequate they are at sex... .and that is really bad even without something like BPD thrown into the mix!

I recently had a single experience with no strings attached sex, after decades with only two different partners. With my wife, the sex was good, but there was some really hurtful rejection mixed in there, with the other lover, the toxic part wasn't there at all.

Thinking about that one encounter later, I realized something truly amazing (and also depressing!) I felt like that one encounter was the only time in my life that somebody had been truly focused on satisfying MY needs, and I was able to simply accept and enjoy that. [And yes, there also is the issue of reciprocating that focus on my partner. I later realized I didn't quite live up to that in this encounter. Still... .there is need for sex fully focused on what you receive, AND sex fully focused on what you give. Taking turns sounds good, and I hope the magic of doing both at once is possible as well upon occasion]

In contrast, my marriage was more like the first decade of my wife trying to give me what she thought I wanted, without us being able to communicate that [I share blame with her there], and the second decade of her demanding what she wanted, in "repayment" for all she had sacrificed in the first decade. Honestly, that is an overly bleak picture--Much of the sex in my marriage was good, it just never made it to its full potential.

[formflier]

 

So... .I'm wondering if there is a SET format... .that can be switched around for sex.

Where the T is what you want (you being the woman... or the man... .but in this thread a woman) and the SE parts focus on accepting... .vice rejecting.

Maybe praise gets tossed in there... .my what a big... .(fill in blanks... )

I think GK is onto something here.  Somehow we have the turn the REJECTION into a rejection (or softer still... .later)... .so that they have a chance to hear what you want.

Perhaps the toxicity and BPDish stuff overwhelms a guys natural desire to get laid... .and maybe that's why I have such a hard time understanding how these husbands don't get it...

From a guys point of view... .figuring out what to do in order to get laid is a big deal... .not the kind of thing you mess up.

I guess I can understand a bad reaction if they perceive getting laid is being "taken" from them... .  maybe that does explain it some.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

From a guys point of view... .figuring out what to do in order to get laid is a big deal... .not the kind of thing you mess up.

No, it is a lot more dangerous than that. It isn't the kind of thing you can AFFORD to mess up. And thus so devastating to realize that you are... .and with black and white thinking, ALWAYS WILL FAIL HORRIBLY AT IT.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, guys. This gives me an insight into some areas I haven't understood about the male psyche. In particular: Most likely, your husband (and Pixie's for that matter) have had prior relationships with abusive behavior around sex that was just as toxic to them.

I watched that video and what the woman said about sexually anorexic marriages really made sense. It's a slippery slope (no pun intended) but "faking it until you make it" in the sexual arena can have some potentially bad outcomes too.

If you're furious with your partner for a history of bad behavior, as I was with my first husband, sex is not something that can build a bridge and further a damaged relationship. All it did for me was to make me angrier, which I hid out of fear due to his violent tendencies.

It's really not fair that I don't have a clean slate regarding BPD behavior now with my second husband. What I mean by that is that I witnessed so much horrific behavior from the first one that just seeing anger and irrationality from my current husband, I start thinking, "Oh, no. Here we go again." It's really not fair. The first one was a sociopath too, and this one is a really good person.

I'm so grateful for this forum and for all of you who so generously contribute your time, insight, wisdom and experience. Thank you. 

[formflier]

 

What I'm hearing from Cat Familiar... .that was so damaging was that she was not able to be honest with her first husband about her feelings... .she was fearful (with good reason) of doing that.

I think that this further shows that "stuffing feelings"... .especially over the long term... is bad stuff.

FF

[Notwendy]

So it is VERY easy to feel like anything going 'wrong' with sex is my fault, that I'm doing it wrong, that I'm a failure, unattractive, inadequate, etc., etc., etc. Culturally, as a man, I'm sent off without any instruction manual, and told I'm a failure when I don't know how things work.

That sounds like my H!




Cat, you speak of how your sex drive has tanked from the abuse you experienced around sex in your first marriage, plus problems in your second.

.

Cat can, and I can too. I think people's sexuality is on a spectrum as well. In college, I had female friends who liked the hook up. Sex for just sex was OK with them. I don't judge them, but it isn't me. My desire is emotionally driven. I don't want variety. I wanted one man, and happily ever after.

This didn't quite happen as I wished as before I met my H, I did fall in love, and get my feelings hurt when things didn't work out, but to me, any physical enjoyment had to be connected to deep love and commitment. So when I fell in love with my H, that was it, for me, hopefully forever and it has been that way for decades, only him, nobody else,

So, over my entire sexual life, I would say that it was basically shaped by him. When he painted me black, I literally begged him to show me some affection. He even refused to kiss me. He claimed he didn't want emotional sex. He claimed that other women were OK with that so there must have been something wrong with me. All these things were said during dysregulations, so I don't know if he really meant them or was just raging and said them to hurt me. I didn't know what was going on, so I took them to heart. It brought me back to my college days when it felt like I was one of the only students who didn't want to hook up. I probably was not the only one, but it seemed as if everyone was doing that.

I wanted to make him happy. I wanted to please my husband. So I became his hook up girl, but once sex became disconnected from me, my emotions, my self, it didn't feel good to me. In fact, just the opposite. It hurt emotionally. I wanted him to be affectionate and loving to me, but it seemed he was angry. If he felt rejected he would "pay me back" by rejecting me.

I hated doing it but I knew our relationship would have been much worse had I not.

The reason I have hope for the relationship is that he did realize the effect on me, and has tried to turn things around. Yes, being over 40 helps as I think men do become more aware of the emotional aspect of sex once those hormones turn down a bit. However, the same thing happens with me. With less hormones, emotions play an even larger role. Now, with less of them, I have the emotional baggage from the years when sex was just one more chore before going to sleep, as Cat said. Put kids to bed,do dishes,  take out trash, feed cat,  *do* husband, put on pajamas, wash face, brush teeth... .Even though I think the relationship is better, these experiences shape my view of what sex is. I really wish I had experienced sex as something between two people who were emotionally close.

I would also fear any attraction to anyone else. I think we are wired to attract  and be attracted to people who match our emotional issues, and I think I would rather work on the relationship I have than wonder about another person.

[Grey Kitty]

I watched that video and what the woman said about sexually anorexic marriages really made sense. It's a slippery slope (no pun intended) but "faking it until you make it" in the sexual arena can have some potentially bad outcomes too.

I'm a big fan of mindfullness, and if you are a woman considering that kind of "fake it till you make it" approach, please be mindful of your own feelings when you do this. When you feel generous and truly want him to have a good experience, even if it may be well ... .average sex for you, or even a chore like doing the dishes. You don't chose to wash the dishes because you enjoy washing dishes either. You enjoy having clean dishes in your kitchen. You are doing very good and amazing work when you come to it from a spirit of generosity.

If you do it out of fear of the consequences of saying no, if you feel you have no choice, or if you are trying to manipulate him with it... .it will be better for you and your marriage if you don't do it. That is the slippery slope.

I'd also note that this video (and most relationship/sex advice) is targeted to an audience of couples that consist of two more-or-less healthy, functional individuals.

The relationships here have one pwBPD/NPD, and one non- who (generally) arrives here very codependent. A majority of these relationships are verbally/emotionally abusive, or at least had been abusive before it was stopped.

Sex/relationship advice for 'normal' couples usually requires some adjustment to cover this. Just like marriage counseling in these relationships is often useless or worse unless the MC understands the BPD/Abusive dynamic and makes adjustments for it. Please remember that when you consider this kind of advice.

[formflier]

 

The biggest adjustment I can think of that will need to be made is that of inequality and proper expectations.

I doubt any of us here would ever think true 50/50 is possible in a r/s with our pwBPD.

So... someone here that is really "giving" to their pwBPD would probably be wise to not expect to see an equal amount coming back.

What I would hope for is effort and results... .something the women could see to verify that their wishes were being met more than they were before the big effort was made to show their BPD hubbies that they are really "taking care" of them.

FF

[RedPixie]

A couple of responses to your posts

FF- I'm not going into it TO get my needs met.

I often take a giving role... .(what I'm saying is that on my yellow days i can't do this if my emotional bank is empty!)

I'd like to be able to say No or I'm not ready yet or tomorrow without it being such a drama... .such a personal rejection no matter how much i sugar coat it.

GK - consensual YES that's it, if i don't want it and people suggest i do it anyway / that feels wrong/  He is a very attentive lover and once we get past first base - its all bliss as far as my needs... .its my emotional needs that aren't being met which is leading me to have a low desire... .(once hes been a little slower and loving I'm there)

My resentment of his inconsistency and childish ways are not helping, I'm sure.

I feel huge injustice all the time - i guess thats victim speak "its not fair" ... .

He complains corrects and criticizes all the time

If i have a momentary lapse and sigh coz he made a mess with the dogs where i just spent the afternoon cleaning and he says... .its fine I'll clean it again!

Now that's not my point ... .the point is i feel like i wasted my time cleaning - he's just told me my feelings don't matter because he will tidy up again. My feelings are never valid and i feel so down pretending that its fine to not have a confrontation. ...

But he needs constant attention and i have to validate every feeling he has!

What I'm asking over and over again is how do you get past these feelings of injustice without huge resentment.

And how do i reject without rejecting

There is much more to this... .

If i think he's initiating and i say something like ... I'm not quite feeling it right now how about we spend some time snuggling first... .he'll sometimes get super defensive and say he wasn't trying anything! why am i always on guard.

I try to explain that when he touches my erogenous zones i assume he is initiating... .ive asked that if he isn't initiating that he not "go there" as its confusing. ... then he gets anmoyed that I'm always telling him "how what why and when" and gets angry that he can't just be however he wants with me... .

When he's having a needy episode he is much more able to be sensitive to my body language and eyes etc which he doesn't really get the rest if the time. If i squirm or move his hand direct his head etc it all makes him feel "he's doing it wrong" / rather than/  "this is great she's directing me"

He never had an abusive partner (he was 22 when we got together and had only had 1 other steady girlfriend age14-19 lots of 1 nighters)

His mother has mental health problems and is a hoarder his father left at age 10 he has dyslexia . His family are wonderful. They love me!. (He has 3siblings from their parents joining and each of his parents have children with other partners 7 total!

He is the life Nd soul of the party when we are socialising! 

Then just no end of complaining when we are alone... .


Sorry i realise I've rambled a bit...

I'm still reading the lessons over and over and while the arguments are much less, this issue is so strong for us.

We are young 36/38 no kids  

[Grey Kitty]

Now that's not my point ... .the point is i feel like i wasted my time cleaning - he's just told me my feelings don't matter because he will tidy up again. My feelings are never valid and i feel so down pretending that its fine to not have a confrontation. ...

But he needs constant attention and i have to validate every feeling he has!

What I'm asking over and over again is how do you get past these feelings of injustice without huge resentment.

And how do i reject without rejecting

BINGO! You got two very important questions here. I'm not sure you will like the answers, but here the are:

Q1: How do you get past the feelings of injustice without resentment?

A1: You don't get past feelings. They are real, and the best you can do is let yourself feel them. If you try to stuff the feelings, they will just get louder and more insistent next time they pop up.

Q2: How do you reject without rejecting?

A2: It isn't possible.

You can be respectful. You can avoid being cruel, mean, nasty, or belittling about it. But no matter how much honey you put on a sh*t sandwich you offer him, it won't taste sweet. He still wants something (sex) with you and you are saying that you won't do that.

A3: (more details for a not-quite-asked question)

Be as brutally honest with yourself about how you feel about his advances/interest at any given time, and how you feel about physical intimacy with somebody who is emotionally distant.

Let yourself feel angry. Let yourself feel disgusted with him or his behavior. Let yourself feel the unfairness. Let yourself feel the violation (if you said "yes" when you didn't want to in the past, and do feel that way). These feelings are very real, but will come and go.

Also let yourself feel love, attraction, desire, etc. for him when you feel that. 

And ask yourself "What is the kindest thing I can do with him right now?" Keeping in mind what you want and how you feel, not in general, but at the exact time you are asking yourself.

Only after that pause, give him your response.

Perhaps you do feel like "taking one for the team". If so, go for it.

Perhaps you just want to get some space from him and not deal with him, and know that if you stay with him right now, you're just going to get more pissed off. Then the kindest thing you can do is tell him that you need some space and take it.

Perhaps you are thinking that you could be interested, and just need some help, and can say "Honey, I'm not feeling ready for that yet. Would you give me a twenty minute back rub, then come back to what you are doing?"

The key to keeping your resentment down is to be mindful of what you feel able to give, and offering only that.

[ArleighBurke]

General Male Weigh in... .

I find hearing about the "type" or "setup" for sex being dependent on the womans cycle very interesting. It's not something I learnt about until a few years back (just after my wife went through menopause!)

I think for men it can be quite confusing - sometimes you want romance and slow, sometimes you want hard and direct. How am I supposed to know when? A good man can possibly 'feel out her mood' and behave accordingly, but I think that knowing where in her cycle she is will help immensely. Interestingly a 'life coaching' site I also subscribe to describes this as well -and recommends keeping track of her cycle.

So yes - knowing that her desires change during the month (and she's just not crazy!) is useful - and perhaps this should be taught at some point. (Not sure how many <20yrs old guys would find it useful, but for later in life... .)