Defeating the power of threats... (especially divorce threats)

[formflier]

pwBPD traits use threats... .not because they want the thing they are threatening... .but because they "work" for them in some dysfunctional way.

So, instead of asking their partner to show them that they are still wanted... .and having their partner give them a hug and an expression of value... .they will say "I want a divorce".  The "non" is horrified and exclaims "no... no... .don't end the relationship... .I don't want a divorce!"

The pwBPD traits fells better... .the non is destroyed and worrying about the r/s.

Guess what... next time it may be "I will divorce you and take the children... .or take all the money"

Over time the same reaction will not "work" for them so they have to up the ante.

I have not had a divorce threat since end of the summer.  There was a vague reference to going to court during my last "issue" with my wife over when to change schools for D5.  My guess is it was heading to a divorce threat... .however... we have two other issues in our family life that are heading to court (lawyers hired... it's a mess).  Those issues have nothing to do with our r/s... they are contract matters. 

So... there is a chance she was mixing up conversations or having 2-3 conversations at once.  Anyway... I made sure there was zero reaction... .as I keep searching for solutions.

Get some popcorn... .time for a FF story to illustrate how to stand up to threats. 

Backstory... .my wife picked out a lady in church that was "after me".  Apparently I'm a hot commodity...

You know... a guy that can sire 8 kids... .all the women want a piece of this... . 

Anyway, she was frustrated that I would not change my behavior and stop talking to this woman.  Greeting her... saying hey... normal stuff.

Well, we are in church and she starts rubbing my neck and head.  It was a "rub" that told me sex was on the way.  Never have I been touched like that in church.  Guess who was sitting a couple rows behind us... yep... .THE WOMAN!

Well, I'm trying to pay attention to the preacher... .and she asks for a kiss "Lean over here and give me a good one"

I don't do much PDA... .and I definitely don't in church.  I declined.

She whispers in my ear in an evil voice... ."Kiss me now or our marriage is over"

I stood up and walked out of church.  Didn't look back.  She stood up and followed me.  As we left the door she started yammering on about telling everyone what "I had been doing" and the "real me".  I didn't look back... .got in the vehicle and drove home.

She tried to bring up the incident later and I would say "I don't do threats" and walk out of the room.  No discussion... .

Even in MC... .I would simply say "I don't do threats and have nothing further to discuss about this matter".

I've never walked out of MC... .but there were times (looking back) that I probably should have taken a 5 minute break... .and gone to get some water.

I hope this helps. 

My r/s is so much better now that divorce threats (and a lot of other bad behaviors) are gone.  Zero tolerance seems to be the best way to get rid of them. 

It will take time and consistency but it can be done.

FF

[Butterfly12]

Interestingly enough, in my situation the need for threatening divorce coincides with our ongoing separation because he "cannot trust me," and what is "best for the kids."

If I think back, though, the threat has been going on for years. Almost as long as we have been married.

Exhausting. I'm not sure how to "not react." It's so draining.

[waverider]

Threats are a way of extorting validation... .its terrorism

RULE #1. Dont negotiate with terrorists

pwBPD do stuff mainly because it works, so dont let it.

Consistent policy is the only way to set a precedent

[formflier]

Exhausting. I'm not sure how to "not react." It's so draining.

Instead of "reacting" you need to "act" in a healthy way when this happens.

Think about this a lot ahead of time.  Once you start down this road... .DON NOT TURN BACK

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Please read the above message.  Until you understand the reality of that lesson... .do not change anything.

Also might be good to look at my other thread about boundaries and the first extinction burst "I survived".

Reality:  When you start down this road... .he will try to get you back in line  Back to behaving "properly" in his world. 

OK... I'm obviously a fan of my method.  The conversation is over... and I walk away.  I took it a step further and refused to discuss the issue (ever) that I was threatened over.

Luckily they were ridiculous issues... .so it didn't impact me.

So, if she threatened me over a woman... .and then approached me reasonably about it later... .I still would not discuss it.

I think that the best way to go about this is to write a letter that gets read at the next MC.  A letter that gets read at the start of MC.

Don't debate the letter... .the only discussion after reading it is to make sure he understands... .it's not open for negotiation

If you are open to something like this... .we can work on it here... .

Do you have a T that you work with outside of MC?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Threats are a way of extorting validation... .its terrorism

RULE #1. Dont negotiate with terrorists

pwBPD do stuff mainly because it works, so dont let it.

Consistent policy is the only way to set a precedent

He is correct.  I refuse to discuss the ongoing divorce my wife has set in motion.  By not discussing it no matter what I receive from her attorney has made things better and shows her that I will stick to my guns.  All the divorce has been is a bunch of veiled threats.  She backed herself into a corner, I didn't and therefore have nothing to discuss as far as divorce goes.  It was terrorism and I don't negotiate.  That is a great way to put it.  As I have stuck to that boundary, things between my wife and I have gotten better by leaps and bounds.  She is starting to understand that divorce doesn't scare me.  Things between her kids and I have gotten so much better as well which I know makes it harder for her.  She expected me to "go away and fight" and what I have done with her is show consistency and what love really is.  By setting this boundary, she respects me a lot more.  I respect myself a lot more.   

[babyducks]

I absolutely agree boundaries are important.

And completely agree consistent enforcement is vital.

For me, I like to think about how I express and enforce my boundaries based on my decision to stay in this relationship and to make the relationship as loving, healthy and mutual supporting as it can be.

For me that can mean taking the lead in a looking for a balanced and calm response.

Something like,  Right now we see this things very differently about the future of our relationship,   what I see happening is... .

What I would like to happen is... .

Resorting to her communication style allows more of the same and I don't particularly enjoy that.

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

Can you talk a bit about when you first started learning about boundaries (specifically about divorce threats).  How did you feel?  Did it feel weird to not discuss or ignore the threat?

What about after the conversation was over... .when you were alone... .how was that?

I am sure there are many reading this that are tired of threats... .but are a bit concerned about what will happen if they change their response.  What were your concerns when you were considering ignoring he threats?

FF

[lbjnltx]

So, if she threatened me over a woman... .and then approached me reasonably about it later... .I still would not discuss it.

While we don't want to reinforce negative (threats) behaviors we do want to reinforce positive behaviors. 

Refusing to reasonably discuss something that is bothering our partner is not reinforcing positive behaviors.  It leaves no room for resolution, validation, consideration, or understanding.

lbjnltx

[babyducks]

I  like the idea of leaving room for resolution, consideration and understanding.   

I am committed to my relationship.   I want it to be the best it can be.   I know I will hear things I don't like.    I can recognize that with out needing to control that.      I don't try to control the topic of conversation,  only my reaction to it.   

We can discuss anything.   While both parties feelings and thoughts are being respected.  It works both ways.    When it's not flowing in both directions, it's time to table the conversation for another day.

[formflier]

So, if she threatened me over a woman... .and then approached me reasonably about it later... .I still would not discuss it.

While we don't want to reinforce negative (threats) behaviors we do want to reinforce positive behaviors. 

Refusing to reasonably discuss something that is bothering our partner is not reinforcing positive behaviors.  It leaves no room for resolution, validation, consideration, or understanding.

lbjnltx

Yes... .I agree... .I should have explained more.

I don't discuss "affairs"... .why I am "in love" with other women... .why I "desire" them more than my wife... .etc etc.

When my wife is in a "normal" state... .we don't have those conversations.

There have been many times when my wife "held it together" to try an approach me "normally" about a supposed affair... .and then... "in a blink" was in full rage.

So, I don't discuss this stuff with her. 

I don't discuss my feelings for other women with my wife

Now... .if there was a long term improvement in our r/s... .that went on for many months... perhaps I might dip my toe in the water.

I also don't discuss divorce with her... .even reasonably.  She knows my position.  And while it is not as bad as the woman issue... "respectful" divorce discussions have ALWAYS been a way to suck me in... .and there is an implied threat of ending the r/s by discussing it.

If she threatened me about vacation plans... .and then was respectful later... .by all means... .I would attempt a healthy discussion.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon,

Can you talk a bit about when you first started learning about boundaries (specifically about divorce threats).  How did you feel?  Did it feel weird to not discuss or ignore the threat?

When I first started installing hard boundaries in my relationship over a year ago, it was extremely uncomfortable.  It felt like I was being "mean".     When she filed for divorce, my first inclination was to discuss it but immediately decided not to.  I knew it wouldn't solve anything and give her an open door to "reject" me.  It's stupid and decided to have more self respect than that.  I also know that in this state, it is a "no-fault" state and we have no kids together. 

What about after the conversation was over... .when you were alone... .how was that?

At first it was very difficult because I don't want a divorce.  i tortured myself with it at times because of my own personal issues.  Now I don't see it as rejection as much as she would be missing out on a caring, loving husband and good father for her kids that they love.

I am sure there are many reading this that are tired of threats... .but are a bit concerned about what will happen if they change their response.  What were your concerns when you were considering ignoring he threats?

FF

My concer was that she would carry it through to "prove her point".  What I realize now is that all this is how she "learned" to deal with things in her life from her parents and her siblings.  Dealing with stuff with her dad/FOO has made me realize she didn't have much of a chance in life to begin with. 

[Skip]

While I agree that consistantly defusing a threat is very smart, we don't want to employ unhealthy means to do it.  While these tactics may work, they may create a downstream problem on their own.

Do we want to start a transactional dramatic of walk outs? If we suspect our partner is doing something serious like having an affair, are we going to welcome this type of response ourselves.  Remember, its about leadership and the first rule of values/boundaries is that we need to walk the talk.

We should always ask, what is the least amount of force required to get the job done.

In terms of value/boundaries model, after an event we want a stall that gets us past the extinction burst, then a cooperative conversation about what a reasonable resolution is in the future, followed by taking that move each time the situation occurs  (and referencing the value/boundary).

So how might the Church incident play out differently.

1. Vulnerability vs power.  :)ear, I feel really awkward / embarrassed in Church, can we talk about this after dinner.

2. Empathy.  Hear her - but don't jade or get on the drama triangle. Let her say it all. Then answer the question simply and straight forwardly.

3. Establish the value/ boundary - establish the boundary fro handling future events. Maybe something as simple as a 48 hour rule - if this concern rises, we agree to discuss it after 48 hours (which most likely self resolves).

This type of boundary can be as firm as any.

[formflier]

3. Establish the value/ boundary - establish the boundary. Maybe something as simple as a 48 hour rule - if this concern rises, we agree to discuss it after 48 hours (which most likely goes away).

This is what I have sorta figured out.  And I completely realize that our r/s is not "there" yet.

Time lets these issues go away... .or get to the point where my wife doesn't want to... .or won't discuss them.

We never really have gotten to the point of discussing something on the order of "women", secret love children, or secret families reasonably. 

What seemed to work was getting 48-72 hours away from it ... .putting my toes in the water to see if she was "normal" emotionally... .and then asking if there was anything she wanted to discuss.  Referencing what I thought was "the issue" is bad.

We talk about whatever she wants to talk about... .and politely ignore what she was threatening about... .or I walked out on a few days earlier.

If I tried "Honey, I believe you had some concerns about (fill in female name)... ." there would be denial, or hostility... .or some other response... .other than a reasonable conversation.

I have taken this as meaning the "issue" is knowing I am available to talk... .and open... .rather than solving anything in particular.


For suggestions 1 and 2.

1.  No history of asking to talk later... .and having that work.  She will usually continue for a minute or two after I leave the room... .sometimes 5 minutes or so... .and then slowly calm.

2.  If the simple and straightforward answer is not what she wants to hear... .really no history of this going well.  The bar will always move.    Asking if it is all said... .bad.  Sometimes she will say it is all (it isn't).  Oddly enough she has recently brought back the idea of a sand timer to stop my "monologues". 

By my watch that was her talking 5 minutes... .saying she was done... .I talked 15 seconds or so... .she exclaimed "would I ever be through... "  She used the sand timer... .and it was roughly even.        Solutions sometime show up!

FF

[flourdust]

I'm not sure that I have anything new to add, but I'm pretty familiar with being on the receiving end of threats of divorce.

In my relationship, those threats seem to be pretty empty -- and I think they are essentially demands to soothe fear of abandonment. But it's a very unhealthy way to go about getting that reassurance, obviously.

Typically, as my wife's emotions dysregulate, she'll make one of these threats:

"This marriage is over!"

"So, you're going to divorce me."

"I'm leaving you."

"Yeah, you get out! You get out and you don't come back!"

"I'm going to take you for everything you've got."

"Are you going to fight me on custody?"

"Maybe one day I'll poison you." (OK, that one only happened once, and it was chilling even to my threat-hardened self.)

In the past, I'd engage with lots of assurances that I didn't want divorce, I loved her, etc. Essentially, it was me begging her to accept my demonstration of affection.

Now, I typically don't respond at all. Or I'll give a simple statement of disagreement ("I'm not planning on divorce." "No, I haven't hired a lawyer." and drop it. That seems to be effective, as she never follows through on the threats, and when she has calmed down, she never picks up any discussion of them.

But that's NOT the same as refusing to talk about divorce. I'm certainly willing to talk about it. We've talked about it in MC and in a family session with our daughter to help address her fears. In calmer conversations, we have talked about dissatisfaction in our relationship and how it might lead to divorce. They aren't pleasant conversations, but if it's not crazy-paranoid-dysregulation, then I can't justify just refusing to engage.

[formflier]

But that's NOT the same as refusing to talk about divorce. I'm certainly willing to talk about it. We've talked about it in MC and in a family session with our daughter to help address her fears. In calmer conversations, we have talked about dissatisfaction in our relationship and how it might lead to divorce. They aren't pleasant conversations, but if it's not crazy-paranoid-dysregulation, then I can't justify just refusing to engage.

For me,  I've made two vows in my life.  One to my wife and one when I raised my hand to join the military.

There was nothing in my vow about divorce.  I keep my word, so I won't divorce.

There was nothing in my vow about forcing my wife to stay, and I realize if she wants a divorce she can get one, but I won't participate in helping to facilitate it.

The only reason I would discuss divorce would be to restate my position.  I've done that several times (probably too many).

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong... .or judging others for being different.  These are my values... they were made clear to my wife before we married... .they haven't changed.

FF

[MaybeSo]

the non is destroyed and worrying about the r/s.

As long as you are 'destroyed' ... .there will be problems with this.  The key is to hang on to yourself and not be destroyed.

some of the best work I've see one this board is with folks who keep grounded and move along when these threats happen. 

Refusing to discuss... .eh... .well, this can get into a battle, too.

The best reactions I've see are along the lines of ... .acknowledging they heard them... .and then something along the lines of... .I am really sorry you feel that way... .I feel differently myself, but I support you in doing what you need to take care of yourself.



And then be quiet.

People who do this well... .often see a marked reduction in these kinds of threats.

[formflier]

As long as you are 'destroyed' ... .there will be problems with this.  The key is to hang on to yourself and not be destroyed.

Agreed... .pwBPD can perceive when they have gotten a big reaction or have "destroyed" the other person... .somehow that feeds a need/want within them.

One of the things that used to destroy me is I actually thought for a while that my wife was serious about wanting a divorce.  Once I understood it was a threat used to get a reaction and not a serious proposal... .I saw things in an entirely new light.  Since I never would say or threaten divorce unless I meant it... .and I have a hard time imagining a situation where I would ever do that... .I assumed she thought and processed things the same way.

Refusing to discuss... .eh... .well, this can get into a battle, too.

Yes it can.  I should clarify that I don't think there is a topic I have ever refused to discuss.  It is the repetitive nature of the discussion, with that discussion flowing towards how bad I was etc etc... .that brought me to to the point of not discussing certain things.  It's been discussed... .I have nothing further to add.

[unicorn2014]

Wow FF, powerful post, I like that line "I don't do threats". It reminds me of something I once heard a meeting that I tried to adopt for myself "I don't do drama". I also liked what you said about the way in which your wife was touching you let you know what she was after and also how you thought to look to see who was around.

That sounds really difficult.

I know myself I can't attend the same parish as my ex right now as things are really bad.

That's a tough one when your spouse tries to paint you black in a church community. As I said I feel stifled by my ex so I don't even go to church anymore.

I am glad that you are still able to stay in your marriage.

I hope things get easier.

[Circle]

Great story; made me laugh too. Thanks for sharing the wisdom!

[formflier]

Great story; made me laugh too. Thanks for sharing the wisdom!

I didn't explain it to anyone at church... .nobody asked about it.

A couple months later I was talking to preacher about things... .and let him know some of the struggles I was having at home... .he asked about a "for instance"... .and I asked if he remembered when I left church and wife followed.

He did remember it... .but just thought it must be some curious thing... .since it never happened before or after.

So... .while these things were big deals to me... .other people noticed... .but didn't really get involved or think much of it.

I'll start another thread on "investigations" at my wife's behest... .just remembered a good story (ok... good is relative... .) about the preacher and that same woman I was after... .or she was after me... .whatever.

FF

[waverider]

Agreed... .pwBPD can perceive when they have gotten a big reaction or have "destroyed" the other person... .somehow that feeds a need/want within them.

They have regressed into win/lose mode, at this stage subject matter is often of little concern anymore, hence it is better to stay away from the subject.